Finding Kashmir's Pain in London

aww...poor oppressed baby...

here`s a quarter



call someone who gives a rat`s rear....

Hey Murtuza,

Without going into my disagreement with you on Kashmir issue, I have to say that I liked the article. You have captured the insecurity and angst of a refugee very well,

Thanks,
Avkrishna

need a clarification

Now that I am a Kashmiri Londoner, the grief is doubled. My soul feels suffocated in the dingy tunnels of the Underground where blood is spilt of both oppressor and the oppressed.

Who is the ``oppressor`` and the ``oppressed``?.. If you think the average office going Peter from Liverpool is the ``oppressor``, I`m afraid your soul would feel suffocated for eternity.. :-))

Author should have immigrated to Saudi Arabia or Pukistan. Why go from one kaffir country to
another ? [no need to answer that]

another rant.....

do you believe all you wrote?
I pity you...and all like you.

Yaaaawn!!!!

The bombers in Kashmir are Muslims.

The bombers in London were Muslims.

Coincidence? I don`t think so.

Re: # 7
no. the bombers in london were budhdhists or jews. i thnik i read it somewhere.
can`t remember where :D

#3 by masanamuthu on April 7, 2006 7:48am PT


Who is the ``oppressor`` and the ``oppressed``?.


His brit-paki brothers are the oppressed...the people who died in the explosion were the oppressors..

Notice how he`s left out that itty bitty little detail about his brit-paki brothers blew up the subway...to read his account, you`d think people died in a train accident..or there was an explosion caused by a gas leak...no mention of the fact that it`s the paki terrorists who`re the ones setting off the bombs killing the most civilians in both cases..

Re: # 9
arjun:

His brit-paki brothers are the oppressed...the people who died in the explosion were the oppressors..

Notice how he`s left out that itty bitty little detail about his brit-paki brothers blew up the subway....

Yeah, I noticed it.. These folks are living in ``fool`s paradise``..if they think ``rest of the world`` would empathise with ummah`s ``jihadi`` causes..

:-))

Hai hai, typical hate filled Indian reaction on Kashmir... such venom and karvahat, only cause you know you`re wrong... the truth hurts... fact is many in Kashmir are not happy with Indian rule/massacre or status quo... theres nothing you can do about it, no matter how you package it many Kashmiris dont want to be part of India or even Pakistan...

At least Pakistanis can accept when our govt. has messed up, you guys are so twisted you cant bear the truth and believe everything that comes out of the mouth/ass of your govt. officials.

The `victims` of `terrorism` in India (we`ve had so many more in Pakistan) pale in comparison to the sheer number of people that the INDIAN ARMY has murdered, raped, torchered and abused, ask AMNESTY international (thats if they can get into Kashmir to monitor the situation!)...

And all you Shiv Sainak net choohas for a change instead of looking up anti Pakistan figures, take a look at the human rights abuses figures of the Bharat Army in Kashmir...

Now now now, dont start throwing figures about Pak army this and Pak army that and 1972 this and blah blah blah jihadi this and jihadi that, we already know that shit and heard it a million times over thanks to you guys, try keeping to the subject of just Kashmir and the Indian army, just for a change, can you do that? or will you explode cause you can`t handle your Karma finally moving towards a balance in your bitter twisted selves...

oh and another thing, DUR FITTE MUNH

If you`re Southern ask some Northerner for a translation ya bunch a laantis

Murtaza

A very nice article

Take care

Ally

Dear Murtaza Shibli,

Welcome to chowk. Very few interactors here will deal with your message. I do not know how many of these interactors have seen prolonged violence up-front, I guess very few. So toughen your hide and ignore them if you may. It sometimes helps to remember that there are a lot of people who read but do not interact.

Thanks for sharing your feelings with us in chowk.

Your pain may be real, and your poems may be genuine – but the simple fact of life for Kashmiris is that you already have a country called India – whose citizens you are – whether you call yourself that or something else!

It is also a simple fact of life that Kashmir was a better place to live BEFORE the agitation started.

It is a simple fact that you guys CHOSE to start it.

It is also a simple fact that most of you get (or were getting) the tools of destruction from across the border.

The conclusion is – you guys share a good degree of the blame – so it is unlikely that too many people of the world will shed any tears for your plight – and certainly few will do so within India – where life is relatively cheap because it is counted in billions – and certainly your case will not be helped because of the way you guys have approached the problem!!!

(I recognize the fact that an average individual – especially a poet – has little control on such matters, but at least the blame should be put where it belongs – where all trails appear to lead and where all fingers are beginning to point!)

The US south took almost a hundred years to recover from its civil war. Indian Kashmir will most probably take even longer – unless the mindset changes.

I wonder why chowk editors hesitated for eight months before deciding to publish this article!

...i love indian muslims...whiners...all of them..be they farzana versey or salim chauhan or the author of this piece...you guys deserve what you get from your hindoo brothers on chowk and in india...

#11 by ally on April 7, 2006 9:50am PT

we know what the Indian army is doing in Kashmir..we just don`t give a pakis rear..They`re killing paki terrorists and some collateral damage is to be expected..a terrorist war invariably leads to collateral damage..don`t like it? tell your paki army to stop sending the jihadis and prepare for a conventional war to get back Kashmir...kashmir banega pakistan/jugular vein and all that...

so first you created the jihad and now you whine about the collateral damage the fight against that jihad results in? What DID you expect India to do? roll over and hand you Indian Kashmir?

we know the ``kashmiris`` aren`t happy...we just don`t give a pakis rear..they`re free to move to pakiland if they want..I`m sure the Indian government will pay for their fare..

have you noticed how pakis think they get absolved of all their crimes when they, in ally`s words, ``accept the truth``.

They`ve ``accepted the truth`` that they`ve killed a bunch of bangladeshis in 71..so it`s ok even if they don`t prosecute anyone for it..

They`ve ``accepted the truth`` that their government is sending Islamic terrorists into Kashmir and generally running islamic terrorist training camps all over Pakiland...having accepted that gives them a free pass..no need to stop what they`re doing..

A very moving account..
This is a reminder that in violent conflicts between powerful actors it`s the little people who get stepped on..

A very moving account..
This is a reminder that in violent conflicts between powerful actors it`s the little people who get stepped on..

Arjun:

Dude, let`s talk facts here.

Pakistan did not create the Kashmir Jehad. It was home grown in the outset, a direct result of the 1987 elections. None of the JKLF members were Pakistani. Sure, Pak Islamicized the Kashmir Jehad. The writer of the article does not even mention the HR abuses committed by the Jehadis, does not mention the warfare between Hizb and JKLF, or the civillians killed. Nor does he mention the situation in Kashmir prior to 1989. But that`s besides the point that Pakistan merely took advantage of an opportunity, did not create it.

#18 by stuka on April 7, 2006 12:41pm PT


But that`s besides the point that Pakistan merely took advantage of an opportunity, did not create it.


Gee...that makes it ok then..and gives them a pass to continue running islamic terrorist training camps....</sarcasm>

Re: # 18
stuka:

Dude, let`s talk facts here.

Pakistan did not create the Kashmir Jehad. It was home grown in the outset, a direct result of the 1987 elections. None of the JKLF members were Pakistani. Sure, Pak Islamicized the Kashmir Jehad. The writer of the article does not even mention the HR abuses committed by the Jehadis, does not mention the warfare between Hizb and JKLF, or the civillians killed.


Though your question is directed towards arjun, I`d like to know a few things.. The traditional knowledge is that the revolt is at first homegrown and because of the rigged elections..

But to me, it sounds fishy that the armed rebellion started just in the late 80s, and not in the period of 50 - 80.. Do you think the US/Pak supported successful jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan played any role in starting the insurgency in Kashmir??.

Not at all. But their running Islamic training camps does not absolve our responsibility to make do on our fukk up.

Not at all. But their running Islamic training camps does not absolve our responsibility to make do on our fukk up.

#18

Welll, the greviences were of course home-grown, but Pakistan was involved even at the outset. There have been interview `s with one of the original JKLF guys about how they were trained and cultivated since the mid-`80`s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4099740.stm

#20

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4099740.stm

Mr Khan says the ISI first made contact with the JKLF in early 1987, through the organisation`s senior leader Farooq Haider.

He says Mr Haider made a deal with the ISI whereby the JKLF was to bring young Kashmiris willing to fight Indian rule to Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

They would then be given military training and arms by the ISI, he says.

The objective was to start an insurgency in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Mr Khan says he was not a part of the deal at the time it was made, but went ahead with it because the JKLF was told that ``General Zia ul-Haq`s ideology was similar to that of the JKLF.``


The JKLF was told the move had Zia ul-Haq`s blessings

``I remember thinking that Gen Zia had said he wanted Kashmir to be a part of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), which clearly meant an independent Kashmir.

``So I went ahead with the deal.``

Another reason for accepting the offer was that two previous attempts by the JKLF at starting an insurgency had failed for want of ``external support``, Mr Khan adds.

FYI, the rigged Kashmir assembly elections were on March 23rd, 1987

Re: # 18, by stuka

While you are right that JKLF members were not Pakistanis, I am not sure that Pakistan had no role to play. Pre 1987, for example, some Kashmiri students in Aligarh University were quite prominant for proposing violent struggle. A few of them had close connections with the radical fringe of AASU, who in turn had close support from Pakistani intelligence opertaing from Bangladesh.

In no way am I saying that the Indian State was not to blame.

Re: # 21
haramee desh-drohi tujhey mai dekh loonga....

Bong Dongs:

I will look at your link in a minute.

``But to me, it sounds fishy that the armed rebellion started just in the late 80s, and not in the period of 50 - 80.. Do you think the US/Pak supported successful jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan played any role in starting the insurgency in Kashmir??. ``

The Paks were pretty demoralized after 1971 and had enough internal problems to deal with. In the early 80s, the Punjab movement started. Again a home grown issue initially but grew into one with transnational ramifications once the NRI Sikh community started getting involved. The 80s were dominated by supportt of Khalistan movement by ISI and Kashmir was pretty much in the backburner. Ofcourse, the Pakistanis were also involved in Afghanistan at the time and that kept them busy. The Kashmiris from India started moving to Pak only after the 1987 elections. After all, even Syed Salahuddin of the Hizb was fighting elections in India in 1987 and he won. His campaign manager at the time was Yasin Malik. Its just that after the victory, Salahuddin (who used his real name then) was arrested, beaten up and released and the NC cabdidate was announced as the winner. The Kashnmiris were a windfall for Pak and yes, they armed and financed them. But remember, this happened in the late 80s. The Kashmir ``jIHAD`` DID NOT EVEN START TILL ABOUT 5 YEARS LATER. The first 5 yrs or so, it was purely JKLF and later Hizb. Though even the nationalist Kashmiri movement had an Islamic overtone.

#21 by stuka on April 7, 2006 12:49pm PT


Not at all. But their running Islamic training camps does not absolve our responsibility to make do on our fukk up.


what fuckup? Rigged elections? Name one part of India that hasn`t had rigged elections..

what makes muslims in general and kashmiris in particular so special that their ``grievances`` need attending to at a higher priority than the grievances of others?

Kashmiris don`t consider themselves Indian citizens...fine..then there`s no need to accord them any special treatment, is there? I wouldn`t lose any more sleep over the Indian forces killing the kashmiris/paki jihadis than I would over the army killing a bunch of chaddis in gujrat out to burn a bunch of muslims..

``Another reason for accepting the offer was that two previous attempts by the JKLF at starting an insurgency had failed for want of ``external support``, Mr Khan adds.``

Read this two ways.

1. An indigenous movement would not go far without foreign support - I agree.

2. An indigenous movement existed and had no foreign support. The Hardcore JKLF has been around forever. Maqbool Butt was hanged in 1984 I think. But the movement gained traction in 1987 after elections. Mass popular support also existed post elections, it just became visible after the kidnapping of Home Minister`s daughter.

Stuka:

Do you think that`s the ONLY time when an election was rigged in India??.. :-) .

``Rigging`` has been going on for decades.. thank heavens, due to the EVMs and Election commission, it has greatly been reduced.. And even that ``rigging`` was done by ``National Conference``, fellow kashmiris.. Just because the geo political situation was good for ``jihad``, it has been going on for so long..

And even now, It is supported only in the valley.. People in Jammu and Ladakh are (I believe) in favor of continuing in the Indian union.. Plus Kashmir has the least number of people below the poverty line (in the whole of India), thanks to massive govt. spending..

Agreed that there are ``human rights abuses`` by the Army. It happens everywhere when there is no accountability.. The best thing to do is to bring accountability and not to support folks like this writer who thinks ``office going Peter from Liverpool`` as the oppressor..

#29

I wanted to point out a few things with the article.

1) the timing of the offer to help the JKLF, its ``early `87``. This was probably before or at best at the same time as the elections. Seems to me like the `87 election disaster came as no surprise to the ISI.

2) the JKLF is ofter potrayed as ``totally indegenious``, and Pakistan became involved only with Hizbul. This is a falsehood.

too many I, I, I`s, in this article.....are most Kashmiri intellectuals this narcissistic….

Kashmir is not the personalized pain in the heart of the author exclusively -- Kashmir is the subcontinental pain in the ass for everybody......people should stop either killing OR crying -- and start negotiating.....

#32 by nasah on April 7, 2006 1:48pm PT


and start negotiating.....


There`s no negotiating with a marauding band of jihadis or a marauding band of gujju chaddis out to kill other indian citizens..

a bullet(or 5) should do..

Welcome to chowk, Murtaz:

Your article shows the anguish of an ordinary Kashmiri caught between the jihadis and the indian security forces. But it also raises some questions for which you do not provide answers.

You say that ``the `paradise on earth` - that old designation of Kashmir - burned to a wasteland of sadness by the violence kindled by Indian rule``. So, when did this paradise turn into a wasteland? In 1947 when Indian rule started? In that case, do you mean to say that it was a paradise under the Maharaja? If not, then what turned it into a wasteland was not the Indian rule but the insurgency against it.

You refer to some commonalities between England and Kashmir. What are these commonalties? To me the only common elements are:

-both of these places are dar-ul-harb;
-bombings in both cases are carried out by Muslims;
-bombers in both places were trained in Pakistan

If there are any other similarities, I do not know. Kashmir is facing an insurgency where a large number of Kashmiri Muslims, may be even a majority but muslims only and no other group, are not happy with being part of India whereas in Britain some British Muslims are angry over their govt.`s participation in the attack on Iraq.

Please let us know if there are any other similarities.


Stuka, others:

Some facts about Kashmir:
- Election riggings in Kashmir started with the very first election when Sheikh Abdullah won all seats in the valley even before the election;
- Pakistan did not intervene in Kashmir between 1965 and 1989. India alone is responsible for the mess it created;
- JKLF`s insurgency did not take roots until VP Singh`s govt. gave in to the demands of the kidnappers of the then home minister Mufti`s daughter;
- JKLF did/does want independence but it is as communal as any other militant organization. Kashmiri Pandits were driven out during the JKLF phase and before the Pak-allied groups came into the picture;
- While ``collateral damage`` is unavoidable, good police and intelligence work can avoid much of it. When you kill one innocent person, you create at least ten new recruits for the cause and a thousand more supporters for it. This is as true in Iraq as it is in Kashmir and as it was in Punjab.

DM

JKLF`s insurgency did not take roots until VP Singh`s govt. gave in to the demands of the kidnappers of the then home minister Mufti`s daughter;


I disagree on this. The insurgency had taken roots; the kidnapping was simply the first major success for the militancy and gave it a public face.

Mr. Shibli, thanks for a poignant and eye-opening piece. Despite killing more than 1 lakh Kashmiris, the Indian Army has failed to defeat the freedom struggle. Kashmir is India`s failed experiment in coercive nation-building. And an expensive one at that. The costs are in fact rising for India (as we have seen in Varanasi, Akshadharam, Delhi, etc).

The blame for this failure rests squarely on the Indian bureaucracy and political leadership. Sending in the army in 1990 was a grave mistake for the following reasons:

1. It totally alienated the Kashmiri population.

2. It rendered J&K Police, paramilitary forces and J&K government irrelevant to the Kashmiris. The people of Kashmir won`t take the Omar Abdullahs, Mufti Sayeeds and Mehbooba Muftis seriously as long as the army is stationed in Kashmiri cities.

There in lies the difference between real superpowers like China and a ``wannabes`` like India. The former hate active conflicts. The latter perpetuate them.

H E

So I assume you would have preffered that India adopt the China`s Xinjiang and Tibet model in Kashmir?

Wow, I had no idea that you were so close to RSS viewpoints.

That Green Grass on the Other Side….
A One Act Tragedy
(1947: Enter the players)
Maharaja Hari Singh (MHS): Main idhar jaaoon ki, udhar jaaoon….
Restive Kashmiri Population (RKP): It looks so green over there!
MHS: It’s MY baby. I’ll do it myself!
RKP: But it looks so green over there!
Pakistan (P): “Ooooo….Baby, Baby….”
RKP: Ahhh… those green pastures!

(1947: Pakistani “tribesmen” invade)
Pakistani tribesmen (PT): O meri johra jaween….
MHS: Koi bachao, ye badmash meri izzat loot rahe hain…
RKP: But it looks so green over there!

(1947: Enter India)
MHS: Bachao, bachao…
India (I): But we aren’t married yet!
MHS: where do I sign?
I: Here is the dotted line!
(Marriage contract signed)
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…
P: Talak, talak, talak…
I: We don’t follow the shariyat!

(1953: Enter Sheikh Abdullah)
Sheikh Abdullah (SA): Jaane waalon jara hoshiyar, yahan ke …hum hain raaj kumar…
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…
SA: It’s MY baby. I’ll do it myself!
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…
SA: Give me three….give me seven….give me zero….
RKP: That looks like a zero all right! But it looks so green over there!
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…
SA: Dil wil, pyar vyaar…main kya jaanoon re…
I: Off to the dungeon!

(1965: Pakistani troops invade)
Pakistani troops (PT): O meri johra jaween….
Ayub Khan: Jara thahro…
Z. Bhutto (ZB): Badhe chalo, bahaduron…
PT: Hum ek…hum mare duss..
(PT rudely shocked)
ZB: Yeh sub Ayub ki gultee hai…
RKP: But it looks so green over there!
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…

(1970’s)
I (to SA): Aap mujhe achchhe lagne lage…
SA: Saapne sachche lagne lage…
(Bangladesh takes off)
General Zia (to ZAB): Off to the dungeon!
(Later)
General Zia (to ZAB): Off with his head!
(SA croaks in 1982)
RKP: But it looks so green over there!

(1984 in Siachen)
PT: Mujhe thund lug rahee hai…mere paas paas aaa…
I: Tu jahan jahaan rahega … mera saya saath hoga…
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…

(1989)
RKP: I want my valley all GREEN!
ISI: O meri johra jaween….
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…
(Kashmiri pandits driven out – sounds of cheering rise from one house in Dadar, Bombay)
RKP (pointing to I): Inhi logon ne, inhi logon ne…Inhi logon ne le leena dupatta mora…

(1999: Kargil)
Musharraf (M): Chadhe chalon, bahaduron…
(Fighting ensues. Butts whipped.)
Nawaz Sharif (NS) (to Bill Clinton): Ab laaj rakho Girdhari…
(Later)
NS (to M): Main ne pee sharaab…Tum ne kya piyaa… Aaadmee ka khoon!
M (to NS): Off to the dungeon!

(1999 - 2002)
M: Yeh jo muhabbat hai, ye unka hai kaam
Jihadis: Mar jayen, mit jayen…
ISI: Ho jayen …badnaam!
(Indian Airlines flight hijacked, Indian Parliament attacked. Troops mobilized)
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…

(Presently)
Jihadis: Tera mera pyar amar…
RKP: Phir kyun mujhko – lagta hai dar?
I: Janam janam ka saath hai, nibhaane ko…
M (sobering up): Talak, talak, talak….
RKP (sobering up): But it looked so green over there!

Re: # 36

This post , is patently ridiculous. Does His Excellency know what has taken place in Tibet and the Xighiang province in China.
The Han Chinese have been moved in and the original population is now a minority. I presume that is the way to become a super-power, in your book.

#36 by HisExcellency on April 7, 2006 4:08pm PT



The costs are in fact rising for India


Deluding yourself again? The results of Pakistan`s jihadi policy are obvious..``special`` treatment for pakis when they land at US airports..pakis being bugged by the FBI..pakis targeted for deportation..

The world now associates India with IT(info tech) and Pakistan with IT(international terrorism)

p.s. I heard the deportation flight back to pakiland isn`t comfortable at all..they put you in chains and you can only go to the bathroom a couple of times..practice bladder control instead of posting your self-delusions...

welcome a ``real`` kashmiri to this website. i want to eomment ferzana in getting real live kshmiri here..instead fo crocidile tears pakis or some mirpuris. hope you interact as well.

welcome again and share with us the good the bad and the ugli.

i have many police brutality tales to share as well..but fortunaetely not many at the end of the gun.

friggin mirpuris

#41 Jang

So why do you think they held it back for eight whole months? Not by design, by any chance?

Who says there is an agenda?

``I heard the bomb blast in the tube...and I could hear the sound of wailing mother in Kashmir,
I smelled gun powder on the London bus......I could smell the tortured earth of Kashmir,
I saw the maimed profesor on the London newspaper......I remembered the maimed old man at home.
I must thank someone for bringing back the smell of earth in London....``

Wow!!!.you could finally smell earth in London..............and you must thank the Pakistanis for your freedom struggle that is now being brought to the European mainland!!!

``Kashmir is suddenly my closest neighbour in London. ``

More bomb blasts in London by your Pakistani brothers and you would feel like it is your backyard................soon you would claim to represent the UK`s Ummah and stake your claim to `negotiate` on behalf of the rest of the muslims in London ...........

How about forming a ``Hurriyat Council of Europe`` to discuss freedom struggle that has now come to the London? That would certainly make feel even more at home? Your daily column in your local London daily extolling the freedom struggle of British Muslims would certainly be a great hit................tumhari dukandari acchi chalegi........

Re: # 33

Arjun_m,

Dhimmi secularist that you are can`t you see a simple truth. The so-called Gujju Chaddi`s retaliated after 59 pilgrims most of them women and Children were burnt alive by these blood thirsty mozies. And in case you claim it is the job of the state then pls let us know why riots broke out all over India when a few bricks were removed from a disused mosque.

Also read the history of the partition riots. Only when the Khalsa and the Biharis retaliated against the moz in India did some amount of rioting stop in bakistan.

You cannot comapre the two. For further details go to bharatvani.org and read How I became a Hindu by Shri Sita Ram Goel ji, it will clear your misconceptions about equating these two situations.

No Regards
Sanatani

During my student days in the United Kingdom , I happened to come across someone whom I could never forget . His name was Sagir Ahmed from Bhember , Azad Kashmir . he was a dedicated member and as far as my sources tell me still is active in liberation of Kashmir from Indian occupation . Yes , he belonged to JKLF & obviously was a Kashmiri Nationalist & we always used to argue about the future of Kashmir . I as a Pakistani , obviously was of the view that Kashmir is part of Pakistan and he was of the view that Kashmir is a independent entity - once I got too emotional & punched him * that was the last time we met * - now after four years I never changed my views but our country(s) policy regarding Kashmir has changed ! so should i punch the system ? keeping in mind I am part of this system ? or should I accept the view which is a view of one man illegally occupying the highest seat of my nation ?

Mr. Murtaza Shibli

This article has really touched my sensitivity. I am left speechless. My nerve endings are stimulated by this article`s true nature. This article has left me with heartache and bleeding soul.
Human rights violations are being reported daily in Kashmir by Indian army.Kashmiris demand their liberation from Indian chained slavery. Kashmiris have every right of self determination, this dispute must be resolved according to Kashmiris wishes. Absolutely Not according to Pakistani or Indian wishes.

It looks like India has had been insincere in it`s efforts to resolve this serious territorial dispute.There is one and only way to solve this issue to implement under UN resolutions the very right of Kashmiris to decide their future themselves with out being interrupted by Pakistan or India. Let them choose their destiny either by bonding with India or with Pakistan or with neither of them. Just having their own independent country.

Almost half a century past, India didn`t show even a little bit of flexibility on this matter, India`s rigidity is making this matter worst day after day.

There will never be any peace in the subcontinent unless this regional issue is resolved with out suppressing the Kashmiris right to freedom which is their basic right. India is enslaving Kashmiris at gun point, with extreme arrogance and with their imperialism.

Kashimiri men and women are being slaughtered and bullets being sprayed in their bodies has been routine for Indian army to enhance their militray skills. Kashmir has become the real battle field for Indian army to fight with the poor, oppressed and miserable Kashmiris.

On side note:-

Kashmir is for Kashmiris to decide their right of self determination with out any brutality imposed upon them by Indian army at gun point . Kashmiris misires are innumerable...............

``Kashmiris demand their liberation from Indian chained slavery. ``

The author`s rant was not on Kashmir...........but on how London seems to be like Kashmir after bombings.............and how he smelt earth now that that the Pakistani Jehadis have also landed in Britain............

#51

ballukhan sahib

But, my pain is obvious from my stand related to Kashmir`s issue, whether you call it ranting or whatever, my stand will always be like that. Yes, author felt this deep pain in his heart and soul, too. This is the common bondage that I felt with the author and gave my point of view to resolve this misery.

Thank you

re: this article
I empathise with the author. I know what emotional trauma he is going through.
But author has also cleverly juxtaposed happenings in London with that in Kashmir.
If there is a similarity between the 2, it is that in both cases, terrorists are killing innocent people and in the latter, India has reacted with full force at its disposal. British were smug in their arrogance that UK is a multicultural society where all kind of dissent is tolerated, even the militant Islamic variety. Well, London bombings are a wakeup call for them.
(My time here was shadowed by a strong sense of guilt that I am free while my people remained captive)
You were free to move out of Kashmir to London, were u not?
What is then freedom?
Your concept of freedom is ``narrow``. You have conveniently forgotten your roots. You have forgotten that Kashmiri Pandits, who called Kashmir their home, had to flee to Jammu where they live as refugees. You have forgotten that there was another religion that predates Islam and was vibrant, so much so that it survived the worst onslaught of barbarians. You have forgotten that your forefathers converted to Islam under the sword but some who did not live like refugees in their own homeland.
Your parents never taught u perhaps that Kashmir was once a ``cultural paradise``, a tolerant society where all religions were welcome. Then came the militancy from across the border in the garb of ``freedom from Indian oppression``. Kashmiris took the bait with gusto. Many decades later, kashmir is in ruins, Pakistan has forsaken your cause because it is itself a victim of terrorism that it unleashed on the hapless Kashmiris.
Now, Kashmiris are at crossroads. Pakistan has not delivered on its promise. Kashmiris are now divided between the 2 nations. Where to go from here?
At this moment of time, it would be good to remember that Kashmir`s future is with India. In India, democratic forces are shaping in such a way that the nation is going to become a ``federal`` structure with substantial autonomy delegated to each state (much like it is in USA). It will take time but that is the direction India is heading. Kashmir`s problem will be solved if Pakistan stops interfering and accepts LOC as the international border and substantial autonomy is given to Kashmiris to manage their affairs.
Kashmiris should forget they can be free. Freedom from India would mean falling to the jehadis. Which is better?

(In my own hometown I witnessed more than 40 deaths in one day. As we marched peacefully, we were showered with Indian army bullets from every direction.)
Again, what is the better option? Being with India and avoiding the Indian bullets or be with the terrorists who will make Kashmir a hell-hole. Kashmiris need to change their mindset. They are already free in India. Only, they do not know it.
Sridhar

#47 by sanatani on April 7, 2006 7:14pm PT


The so-called Gujju Chaddi`s retaliated after 59 pilgrims most of them women and Children were burnt alive by these blood thirsty mozies.


Did they kill a single mozi responsible for killing the people in the train? No...they went out an killed a bunch of other people who were innocent and had nothing to do with the killings..I was there in Bombay when the shiv sena goons ``retaliated`` against the killing of the people in the chawl by burning muslim businesses and then buying them up after the riots and turning them into dance bars..don`t believe me? there`s a dance bar opposite a sai baba temple..there used to be an irani restaurant there that didn`t even serve alchohol..let me know if you need the location of that place..

take your moral indignation and put it in your chaddi`s pocket...the back pocket..

re:#36 by HisExcellency
Once Pakistani factor is neutralized, Kashmir can be dealt as an Internal problem by India. This is already happening.
Reliable sources have it that in a close room session with President Bush, Mushy boy showed his GUBO skills and won some reprieve. He was however severely reprimanded for helping jehadis. Jehad in Kashmir is dead.
The new buzzword is: allowing the 2 Kashmirs to interact and then allow them to unify eventually with each nation slowly giving up much of control. It is not surprising that in such an atmosphere India is mulling over vacating Siachen and is slowly planning to phase out its troops in the valley.
Sridhar

re: arjun_m`s post to HP
(practice bladder control instead of posting your self-delusions...)
Ha, ha.
Man, that was hilarious.
To that sane advice, i will also add that Pakis need to learn the GUBO technique mastered by Mushy. Who knows when it will come in handy.
Sridhar

re: #49 by Zeena
Zeena bibi,
For your eyes only:
Human rights violations in Kashmir
(....eport released in late January 2006 found scores of cases of arbitrary arrests and detention, torture, extrajudicial executions, “disappearances” and use of excessive force by security and intelligence forces committed since early 2005. Amongst the victims are women, children and many political activists..)
Extra-judicial killings in Kashmir
Sridhar

Re: # 50

Sure!! Punjab is for Punjabis, Baloachistan is for Baloachs, Sindh is for Sindhis......something else is for Ahmedis as well...............why not fight for feifdoms and pure lands...............I have been sympathetically advised by so many of my Pakistani friends on doing Jehad for `liberating` my muslim mohallah in India..........my friend this is known as communalism which unfortunately Pakistanis do not understand!! Kasmir is an expression of blatant Pakistani communalism that goes in the name of unfinished business of TNT!! Stop exporting your communalism all over the world because it is hurting the muslims world wide.........

re: ``Zeena``


Pleased to know that your nerve endings are once again being stimulated. For further
stimulation read this:



Militant Sunni activists rally in Pakistani capital
(Reuters)

7 April 2006



ISLAMABAD - Thousands of activists from an outlawed Sunni Muslim militant group rallied in Pakistan’s capital, calling for the establishment of an Islamic theocracy in the country and across the world.


Activists of Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP) openly distributed pamphlets preaching jihad, or holy war, and hatred against minority Shi’ites in Islamabad as their leaders delivered fiery speeches to a crowd of around 5,000 late on Thursday.

They also sold video compact discs of beheadings of American soldiers in Iraq, militant activities in Afghanistan and Pakistan at the rally, which they said was convened to celebrate the birthday of the Prophet Mohammad this month.

One of the organisers thanked the Islamabad administration for allowing the rally, which was held under floodlights in a bus depot, with hundreds of riot police watching on.

The group is known to have close links with Jaish-e-Mohammad, a key militant group fighting in Indian-ruled Kashmir and an organisation that has forged links with al Qaeda.

The rally was also addressed by Zaheer-ul-Islam Abbasi, a former general who was sacked and arrested in 1995 for trying to topple the government of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and the military’s top brass with an aim to enforce a Taleban-like rule in the country.

“The concept of nation state is an obstacle in the way of establishment of Khilafat (puritanical Islamic rule),” he said.

“We will start establishment of Khilafat in Pakistan and then will do so across the world,” he vowed.

Crackdown

Last July, President Pervez Musharraf ordered a major crackdown against clerics and organisations inciting sectarian violence, having already banned SSP, or “Army of the Companions of the Prophet Mohammad” in 2002.

Some of the crowd briefly chanted anti-Shi’ite slogans, until they were told to refrain by their leaders.

They also swore allegiance to their late leader, Maulana Azam Tariq, a fiery pro-Taleban cleric who was assassinated in Islamabad in 2003, and founder of their militant organisation, Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, who was killed in 1980s.

The SSP has often been blamed for violence against Shi’ites, planting bombs in mosques or attacking religious processions.

Thousands of people have been killed in tit-for-tat attacks by militants from the two Muslim sects over the past 20 years.

Most of the victims are Shi’ites, who account for about 15 percent of Pakistan’s predominantly Sunni Muslim population of 150 million.

On Thursday, a prominent Shi’ite Muslim cleric narrowly escaped an assassination attempt in the southern city of Karachi after his car was hit by a remote-controlled bomb.

Authorities have launched several crackdowns on militant outfits since Pakistan joined a U.S.-led war on terrorism in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, but critics say that the steps taken have been half-hearted and many groups have resurfaced under new names.

Like other groups, SSP remerged under the new name of Millat-e-Islamia Pakistan or Islamic Nation of Pakistan.

Founded in the 1980s, it wants Pakistan to be officially declared a Sunni Muslim state.

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Its all `karma`. When Kashmiri muslims were threatening the Kashmiri hindus in the late 1980s and early 1990s with rape , murder and torture , they should have known what they were in for. No use playing the victim now after acting out your fascist Islamist fantasies. Indians have no sympathy for Kashmiri muslims. Infact we think they have to be punished further. They have gotten away too lightly after what they did to the Pandits.

Nice article.

To the author:

That`s the way the cookie crumbles.

Whomever has progressed (And attained an `enlightened` society), has done it by snatching something from others which the others had no power to hold. The seafaring Vikings, Spanish, Dutch and Portugese, the colonizing British and French, the homesteading Americans, the arriving convicts in Australia, even the expansionist Muslims in their day ... you name it.

My friend, there isn`t enough to go around in the world to please everyone. You can only snatch your share back from others who have more than their own share.

Regards.

There is absolutely no sympathy for kashmiri muslims in mainland india.

kashmiris should dispassionately study the consequences of 1947 partition & 1971 bangladesh war of liberation and pakistani policies with respect to afghanistan , indian punjab & kashmir itself.

the bus service(srinagar-muzzafarabad) was started as a legal outlet for the irreversible migration of pro-pakistani kashmiris to settle down in POK(pakistan occupied kashmir).
(if they so wish). But as the indian PM has made it absolutely clear , there will be no redrawing of borders kashmiris have to live with it for ALL TIME to come. We can only only make the borders irrelevant , as in the European Union example.

The Best option is to look ahead into the future , & adapt to the emerging reality.

the cost is rising but for whom?

`Defer non-essential travel to Pak`

Agencies
Posted online: Saturday, April 08, 2006 at 1247 hours IST


Washington, April 8: The United States has renewed a warning to its citizens to defer non-essential travel to Pakistan, citing possible terrorist attacks.

In issuing the travel warning, the US State Department said the al-Qaeda and Taliban militant organisations groups as well other groups in Pakistan posed potential danger to American citizens.

It also cited continuing tensions in the Middle-East, saying it increased the possibility of violence against westerners in Pakistan.

``As security has tightened at official US facilities, terrorists and their sympathisers have demonstrated their willingness and capability to attack more vulnerable targets, including facilities where Americans are generally known to congregate or visit,`` the department said in a statement.

The US Embassy in Islamabad and the consulates in Karachi, Lahore, and Peshawar continue to operate at reduced staffing levels. Family members of official Americans assigned to the Embassy in Islamabad and to the three consulates were ordered to leave the country in March 2002 and have not been allowed to return.

excuse me..

you`re comparing the bomb blast in london with kashmir..either the former is accentuated or the latter under-estimated..
or was this just to make sure to count how many interactions this column gets and get urself registered as a celebrated writer..

well nice try but..everyone one what goes in kashmir..nothing hidden..Pakistan and India don`t want it to be liberated..simple..

its blank cheque for them..kashmiris on the other hand..are non-callous and sound unpatriotic..or lifeless..or waiting like iqbal said..

`haath pey haath rakhay muntazir e farda hein..`..

Kashmiris bring their pain to London, from Leeds, by blowing themselves up on London underground, killing the evil kaffir women and children, by breeding like rabbits, sending suicide bombers in Israel, and making England full of Islamic fundamentalists and honour killers. Stop whining. Kashmiri Mirpuris have made England an unpleasent place to live. They have brought terrorism, slaughter of women and horror and squalor to the inner cities of England. What a disgrace.

Murtaza

Did you not stop to think and reflect on why it was Kashmiris from Leeds who decided to become shaheeds by suicide bombing kaffirs in London? They were YOUR KASHMIRI PEOPLE who are killing people by terrorism in England. Congratulations - you must be proud.

So Murtaza comes to London and 60 people are killed on the Underground by Kashmiri Mofo suicide bombers. And then he says that the blood is spilled on the Undeground of the oppressors and the oppressed. How the hell were the 60 innocent people going to work oppressors, and how the hell were the fascist scum who slaughted them `oppressed`? They were Kashmiri Muslim fundamentalists who lived in a rich western nation that gave them every chance, and they were repressed? So what are you doing there if it is so oppressive? What an idiot - what a moron - what a sly hypocrite - you disgusting man.

After reading Ally`s red eyed Jihadi style - it is only a matter of time before he hides a bomb under his kilt and blows himself up in Glasgow city centre! Kill the Scottish oppressors of Islam! Allah-hu-Akbar!

Dear Murtaza Shibli :

Could you enlighten the readers of Chowk why you chose

1. not to live in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir to carry on the struggle of Kashmiris?
2. Why come to UK which is Dar ul Harb ( land of war) instead of Dar ul Islam (land of
Islam) such as Saudi Arabia,Iran etc. etc.?
3. Why is it Muslim pain appears to be more intense than that of non-Muslims?

If you don`t have an answer for these questions, should the world care for your tragedy?

Kamath

Re: # 68
Mr: PunjabiZulu:

Please do not use the,``... by breeding like rabbits...``. That is degrading to women who are the victims of deep ignorance and fanaticism of many Muslim husbands and men.
Again you can not tar every Muslim with the same brush!

Re: # 48

Um,``..His name was Sagir Ahmed from Bhember , Azad Kashmir . he was a dedicated member and as far as my sources tell me still is active in liberation of Kashmir from Indian occupation ...
Why in the world has he come to UK from `AZADI Kashmir``. Correct me does AZADI means free?

Zeena#various:

You are a person with a very good heart and it is not surprising that you feel for the suffering Kashmiris. I do too but differ with you on your basic premise of human rights.

I am one of the few Indians who would like India to seek a compromise solution in Kashmir and have been abused by Indian chowkies for doing so. I want India to do so because I think that a festering sore, such as Kashmir, is not good for India or Indians. More than anything else, it has made them insensitive to brutalities committed by their security forces on fellow citizens.

But I do not regard the Kashmiri separatist struggle as a freedom struggle and the issue is not of Kashmiri rights but Muslim rights. Kashmiris, with the exception of Kashmiri Pandits, are as free as any other Indian citizen; while Murtaza Shibli is free to go back to his house in Kashmir, a Kashmiri Pandit in a refugee camp in Jammu cannot do so despite the police promise of protection.

Why do I consider it an issue of Muslim rights? First of all, no non-muslim Kashmiri seems to have joined their struggle. Secondly, all militant organizations fighting for ``freedom`` invoke jihad and use Islamic terms, such as Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toibba. And when one watches on TV demonstrations in the streets of Srinagar, the slogan used is ``Pakistan se rishta kya, La Ilaha l`il Allah``.

It`s good to call a spade a spade!

Re:arjun et al...

Who cares about this kashmir crap any more? Even the Pakis have given up on it, except for lip service.

We Indians have much bigger problems with that a**hole Arjun Singh wanting to introduce over 50% reservations in IITs and IIMs. Thats the end of merit in India. Whatever good was happening, is going to come to a screeching halt. Our typical hindu habit of shooting ourselves in the foot is coming up yet again in full glory. Lets destroy our economic progress and slide from a merit based society to a caste-based dump. :-(

Looks like the Pakis are going to have the last laugh. At least thanks to Islam, they dont have to bother with giving reservations to anyone.

re:#75 by dost-mittar
(Why do I consider it an issue of Muslim rights? First of all, no non-muslim Kashmiri seems to have joined their struggle. Secondly, all militant organizations fighting for ``freedom`` invoke jihad and use Islamic terms, such as Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toibba. And when one watches on TV demonstrations in the streets of Srinagar, the slogan used is ``Pakistan se rishta kya, La Ilaha l`il Allah``.)
Infact, this is just a Kashmiri struggle. AFAIK, no non-kashmiri muslim from India has joined in the struggle.
I would argue that Kashmiri case of self-governance, that was a genuine and legitimate case to begin with, got bogged down by interference from Pakistan. Pakis have a way of complicating things. I dare say there is hardly one Paki who can even stand straight and take a leak without wetting his pants! If Pakis had not sent jehadis into Kashmir and had just given emotional and political support, they would be in a very good position today: at least morally. Pakis today are in no position to lecture the Indians on the legitimate rights of Kashmiris when they themselves live under the shadow of a dictator and have denied every citizen the rights that they want Kashmiris in India to have. Infact, as already noted by some interactors here, Indian Kashmiris enjoy much more rights than the Kashmiris in POK.
Sridhar

re:#76 by ranjit
What will happen is that bright IIT graduates will seek greener pastures abroad and those from the ``reserved quota`` will get into govt jobs. This is already the case in medical profession.
What else do u expect from idiotic politicians in India who only worry about votes and their constituency.
Sridhar

rsridar#77:

Yes, I should have said it is a Muslim Kashmiri problem.

Re: # 75

Mr.Dost-Mittar:
You have been pretty pretty patronizing. Your spin all along has been Indians are fanatics
on Kashmir, you are an enlightened soul ``clarifying`` several things for us such as this :

>>>>>``I am one of the few Indians who would like India to seek a compromise solution in Kashmir and have been abused by Indian chowkies for doing so. I want India to do so because I think that a festering sore, such as Kashmir, is not good for India or Indians.``

Why is the ``sore`` festering?

(1) Generations of valley muslims have been brought up with victim mentality, and a sense of entitlement that they are special people. Their superiority complex has grown to such monstrous extent that they still talk about ``self-determination``. Hindus +Sikh majority living in Lahore and Hindu Sindhis did not have self-determination. Balochs, Pashtuns, Tamils, and Telugus did not get ``self-determination``.

(2) Due to their geographic location, and unusual circumstances (Hindu King, muslim majority, etc) things became complicated. ALL ALONG THEY HAD PLAYED SELFISH DOUBLE GAMES, EXTRACTING MAX BENEFIT FROM INDIA, STILL MAINTAINING ANTI-INDIA HOSTILITY, and playing with Pakistan, and screwing up Pakistan (as in 1965) etc.

(3) Biggest humbug is the claim that what they have done for the past 17 years is freedom struggle. Terrorism based on religious fanaticism, plain and simple.

(4) Indian Army is abusing human rights? What crap? Is the Indian army ``abusing`` the ``human rights`` of Gujarathis and Malyalees? If the freedom struggle consists of hiding in mosques and throwing bombs, slitting the throats of sleeping villagers, ethnic cleansing of Hindus do you have any strategy for handling this?

(5) The sore is festering NOT because India hasn`t done enough, BUT because of the militarism, religious fanaticism (new for them, thanks to the Punjabi Sunnis) and the above superiority complex.

(6) If tomorrow they stop their ``freedom struggle`` and develop tourism and other industries, what will happen? Will the Indian army go around abuse their human rights?????????

(7) If one of them becomes the President or Prime Minister of India or Captain of the Indian Cricket team, is any one in the rest of India going to protest? Isn`t this what India is all about.

``Zeena`` here likes to reieterate her committment. She and her jehadi sponsors seem still not to be convinced about our committment after 4 wars and relentless terrorism. We`ll see.

Ranjit - so true. Indians shooting themselves in the foot as always.

punjabi zulu with your hatred for mirpuris they would pimp your black punjoo ass in bradford.
``Keighley, where Mr Griffin did badly at the general election, saw a further BNP setback last month when it lost the safest of its four seats on Bradford council to an outraged local mother, Angela Sinfield. She stood for Labour after her campaign against the grooming of young girls for prostitution, including her own daughter, was hijacked by the BNP, which portrayed the pimping, wrongly, as organised by Asian gangs.

#75 DM-jee

Well said!

#40 by arjun_m

pakis targeted for deportation..

Your attention deficit disorder (ADD) is kicking in again, gringo. We are discussing Kashmir here, not illegal immigration to US or visa violations. Not that I blame you for this. Had your leaders paid some attention to Kashmiris, today your army wouldn`t be stuck in the quagmires of Srinagar, Baramullah and Kupwara.

``The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.``
-- Julius Caesar

#84 by HisExcellency on April 8, 2006 11:32am PT

your army wouldn`t be stuck in the quagmires of Srinagar, Baramullah and Kupwara.



Umm..paki citizens are being bombed and killed on their own land by a foreign power..then there`s the PAF dropping a lot of bombs on paki tribals..the same PAF that chickened out during Kargil..you`ve lost a bunch of soldiers fighting the islamists you trained..PAF men and paki army men are on death row for attempted assassinations of your military ruler..you`re getting publicly slapped down by dubya and have been reduced to begging for a nuclear deal..there`s a travel advisory on pakiland...and your army is still spending a higher percentage of your GDP on itself..



``mmmmmKay``

- Mr Mackey from South Park..

Re: # 75

``while Murtaza Shibli is free to go back to his house in Kashmir, a Kashmiri Pandit in a refugee camp in Jammu cannot do so despite the police promise of protection.``(DM)

well put -- this aomalous situation must be corrected -- if Shibli can go back to his house so can my friend Zutshi and his family.....

DM ji it is NOT the Muslim Kashmiri problem -- its is the Kashmiri Jihadi problem -- the Jihadi Muslim Kashmiri must learn one dictum -- what is good for the Indian Muslim Goose is ALSO good for the Kashmiri Muslim Gander --

the Kashmiri Jihadi Muslims and their Hurriyati apologiistas -- MUST learn and Relearn to live with and work with a pluristic mainstream JKL -- with the Kashmiri Hindus, with the Kashmiri Sikhs and with the Kashmiri Buddhistas...........this is it.

India is not a land of Peurile`Pure`.....its a habitat of the hoshiar hybrids......thank goodness.

jo baichtay thay dawai dil voh dukan apni barhaa gaye -- long time time ago in 1947 --

Hurriyet should forget the dream (more like a nightmare) of Islami Hukoomat in Muslim Valley -- chasing a bloody mirage -- it ain`t happenin in a million yeears-- not again..

Doodh ka jalaa chaach ko bhi phooNk phoonK kar peeta hai....:) hey I still remember those clever vernacular proverbs --

...once is enough.

Ref ranjit #76

[We Indians have much bigger problems with that a**hole Arjun Singh wanting to introduce over 50% reservations in IITs and IIMs. Thats the end of merit in India. Whatever good was happening, is going to come to a screeching halt. Our typical hindu habit of shooting ourselves in the foot is coming up yet again in full glory. Lets destroy our economic progress and slide from a merit based society to a caste-based dump. :-( ]

On another board, I suggested shooting the politicians who are pandering to Sonia Gandhi. I should have included Arjun Singh in the list.

A professor at the National School of Law in Bangalore said that an act of Parliament would be needed to include OBC quota in IIMs, IITs, NITs, etc. The Election Commission has asked why Arjun Singh raised the issue of OBC reservations just weeks before elections in five states and thus making an effort to unduly influence the elections.

Of course we have interactors here who believe that BJs (metaphorical) are the best approach to solving any problem and I wouldn`t be surprised if he now includes OBCs in his list of people requiring such service.

yup..India is being bled dry..

India’s FX reserves at record $151.62 billion

Actual reserves of SBP still below $8 billion

Economic growth may fall below 6 per cent

World Economic Forum Growth Competitiveness Index rankings(India 50, Pakistan 83, Vietnam 81)

Dear Murtaza,

as an Indian, I am extremely ashamed of the behavior of the Indian state towards Kashmiri Muslims, people the state claims are `Indian citizens`. Nationalism has blinded my countrymen to the agony and pain of Kashmiri Muslims. An essentially peaceful, non confrontational and non violent people, Indians, today are apathetic to the killings of innocent Kashmiri Muslims caught in the crossfire between the security apparatus and Muslim militants. The heavy handedness and brutality of the military and security forces is inexcusable. The militants are not expected to adhere to UN charter of human rights because they do not speak in the name of any govt. But the military and security forces should adhere to these values because they act in the name of the Indian people. That they have failed to do so is an indication that India has failed Kashmiri Muslims. Spending billions of dollars in Kashmir on infrastructure and other carrots is not enough when Kashmiri Muslims fear for their lives and honor whenever they step out.

There is not nearly enough exposure among Indians to the atrocities perpetrated in Kashmir. Whatever there is, is skewed in the nationalist point of view. There is no trailblazing journalism of the Vietnam kind which changed attitudes in America and brought Americans in the streets and the Vietnam war to an end. Indians need to be exposed to the realities of the war in Kashmir. They need to see the gory victims of security forces` brutality, not just the victims of militants. It is only then that the Indian masses will wake up to the situation in Kashmir. The vast majority of Indians have never been to Kashmir and form their opinion of the state from the media which while free and brave in many issues, sticks to the govt. version when it comes to Kashmir. There is no independent initiative and thought when it comes to Kashmir or other insurrections elsewhere in India for that matter.

India cannot afford to delay the settlement of various grievances in Kashmir and the north-east. For its own sake, India needs to settle the Kashmir Muslim issue in a peaceful and satisfactory manner for all the parties involved, Muslim and non-Muslim. Indians should part as friends with the Islamic world and close the chapter of our long, fruitful as well as scarred relationship with our Islamic neighbors. Only then can the Indian state concentrate completely and wholeheartedly in solving the problems of the Indian people, people who are proud to be Indian and are not forced to be Indian. India needs to move on and fulfill its promise. Best regards and best of luck,

Kabuli

For my Indian friends who continue to go for the jugular

on Kashmir, a word of caution.

This is not the time to toot your Martial horn.

Kashmir is at its most delicate phase since 1989.

NOBODY has won this war, certainly not India.

And Kashmiris are not going anywhere.

The only victory that can happen is when

all three sides walk away with something

and the Gora that started it all loses in arms sales.

Kashmir is headed for a ``LOC Plus`` solution.

If it happens, I`ll come back to Delhi again and

throw a party at Karim`s or (for the non-Veg crowd)

or share sweets at Ghatewala.

Kashmir needs a lasting peace more than anything else.

When we achieve that, the Lassi is on me.

Ras

Re: # 90

Ras Sahib:

I am with you. I grew up in Nizamuddin East not too far from Karims.

Anil Kapuria

Re: # 89

To the Kabuli (actually a Jehadi):

#1. >>>>``Indians today are apathetic to the killings of innocent Kashmiri Muslims``


Actually the tragedy has been that Indians have been apathetic to the killings, genocide and expulsion from their ancestral motherland of innocent Kashmiri Pundits. They live in camps, in miserable nobody cares. Yes, this could happen only in India.

#2.>>>>``The militants are not expected to adhere to UN charter of human rights ``

Your jehadi honesty is refreshing. Slitting the throats of sleeping people, massacring Hindu and Sikh marriage parties, pumping bullets into the heads of innocent sheperds who were only watching their goats, bomb blasts at markets, bomb blasts in temples- these are not under UN charter. Your clarification is gratefully welcomed.

#3.>>>>``There is not nearly enough exposure among Indians to the atrocities perpetrated in Kashmir``

Actually there has been plenty and more of coverage of ``atrocities`