Will Kashmiri Pandits Ever Return to their Abode…?

Dalit, everything you have said on this post is TRUE. People are getting angry and shouting BECAUSE IT IS ALL TRUE. We grew up thinking we have a ``great civilization`` and a ``tolerant`` culture - all LIES we were taught...Someone should write a ``lies my teacher told me`` book about India... During the Independence struggle, caste-Hindus spun many lies for the Indian middle-class, which they still believe, even if they (we) think we are very liberal. One of the horrible stories spun was this ``Hinduism is tolerant`` thing - nothing could be more of a lie...How brutally Buddhists and jains were treated in the past when they threatened caste-Hindu dominance. How brutally Muslims and Christians are treated because they, being world religions headquartered where there are no caste-Hindus, threaten caste-Hindu dominance also... Many caste-Hindus have good hearts (to the extent they can) but they grew up thinking Gandhi was a great man and a ``good`` Hindu as opposed to a ``bad`` and casteist Hindu. Gandhi made it so that in return for living peacefully in India, Muslims/Christians and Dalits would be pitted against each other. Upper-caste Muslims and upper-caste Hindus collaborated to keep the masses under their control.....

Gandhi had a cannibalistic attitude towards Dalits - he wanted to swallow them as Hindus who would always be slaves... He hated conversion, went overboard with the ``God`` thing to make sure that all god-centered religions remained within the ugly grasp of caste-Hindus through this ``advaita`` and ``bhakti`` thing.....Horrible devices created to trap people into thinking they are ``good`` and ``tolerant`` when they are being INTOLERANT of other religions, of the right of other religions to BE WHAT THEY ARE, rather than being a branch of Hinduism... The sickos even try to say Buddhism is Hinduism when there is NO GOD in Buddhism - Buddhism threatenes these people so much because its hard to swallow that and say ``its ours``.....

Why is the monthly death toll among dalits unreported EN-MASSE by the media, as ONE figure that shows the deadly, genocidal apartheid Dalits face??? No - the Pandits are the only thing in people`s eyes always - WHY DOES THE SO-CALLED LIBERAL MEDIA COLLUDE IN THIS??

Dalit is the ONLY person on here I see talking any sense, giving any fresh information....

Everyone else just rants and gives lectures, ignoring the stench emanating from their own casteist mouths...

If you are a caste-Hindu and consider yourself a good human being - ABANDON YOUR HINDU IDENTITY. Become a Buddhist, develop a sense of ethics and compassion, most importantly, develop some clarity in your head about what is important in life, in society.....Caste-Hindus who rant at Dalits and lecture them about ``peace`` and ``love`` ARE HYPOCRITES. they have blinded themselves to human suffering - they don`t respond to it any more because they ONLY see their ``own`` people as humans - they have DEHUMANIZED Dalits and are now doing the same to Muslims....

Re: # 70

KHAMKHWA,

{{i am arjun_m too....muahahahahaha....;)}}

Goddamn kumquat from Queens!
Goddamned Bihari dukkar!!
I KNEW you would reveal yourself!!!
Is your hand STILL your only..er..ONLY ...girlfriend?!

muahahahaha....i recognise that maniacal cackle

Re: # 70
salim `sherlock`chauhan...
henceforth, i will not use my arjun nick...that`s a promise...;)

Re: # 69
salim ``sherlock`` chauhan ...
i am arjun_m too....muahahahahaha....;)

ps: send me an email and i will explain every thing to you...you know my addy...;)

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#61 and #62, Thank you, Thank you.
For clearing that up. For clearing that up. :)

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Salim , I meant married her daughter to a dalit boy.

Salim , I meant married her daughter to a dalit boy.

Re: # 57

harish_hyd,


{{hehehehehe....Maybe shankar can help you. He`s a shrink you know}}

Sniff...some subhuman species are BEYOND the help of even Sigmund frikkin` Freud!:)

Like.... I like to say....``aint no pill for utter IDIOCY``!

I`m betting my money the bugger is a brainless, prepuce-less katlu from the wrong side of the border...but then again....his ancestors could possibly be foetid nightsoil carriers...I mean..c`maaan yaar...what OTHER profession could they do?!

I KNOW...I KNOW!!!!
He could EASILY become an enlightened deobandi/barevli/wahabbi/buttfuki MULLAH...
similar IQs....similar APTITUDE......&....&...similar poverty of BRAIN CELLS

amansandhu #53 {and recently last year my jat sikh neighbour married her son to a dalit sikh boy [maybe bec is in canada] times are changing ``}

Aman,
And I left Chowk UP to escape this kind of environment! Hey, Ram. Kiya hoga is sansar ka?

#55 nakli dalit


he, he, heh, you are an idiot and a fool, heh, heh, heh

All you are doing is using the struggles of oppressed people to generate noise and confusion. Maybe you have been able to grab some money or get attention elsewhere in this way. But it is no substitute for actual thought and analysis. This is why you published a story about dalits of Jammu and claimed they lived in Kashmir valley ! Talk about ignorance!

Indian media is full of stories of dalits who have made great achievements and of changes in indian society. It is completely relevant that dalits are intermarrying with the broader population in cities. At the same time there are many poor and oppressed people in india. They include caste hindus, muslims, tribals and, yes, dalits. All deserve to be taken forward especially through education.

But why bother with real work and change? It is so much easier to cut-and-paste some nonsense from manusmriti or dalitstan.org.

#55 by Dalit

hehehehehe....Maybe shankar can help you. He`s a shrink you know.

Re: # 55 hehehehe

Arul Ganesh aka Dalit

If I were you, I would watch my back. After Kadirgamar`s assasination, the Sri Lankan Army is on the lookout for LTTE sympathisers in Colombo. Be careful or your next hehehe will be from a Sri Lankan prsion.

heheheheh… first a hindu came out…heheheh…we are all agnostics, atheist, and some were even Roman Catholics…..hehehehe....in the end…heheh… all turned out Hindu ….what they were and they all will remain…hindu….hehehehe

Now….hehehehehe…every one’s friends or his daughter or son is married to a Dalit…hehehehe…my husband’s friend in the 70s…heheheheh
hehehehe…my wife’s brother’s wife’s brother’s friend was sleeping with an ugly Brahmin wench…heheheh …all Dalit problems are solved…hehehehehehe

heheheheh…now this idiot…heheheh…#46 by pmishra2
He posts….hehehehe…. forget to read the whole thing….some nutcase…heheheheh ….here read it…hehehehe… his post not mine…heheheheh

“In rural India, Dalits cannot draw water from the same well as those from upper castes or inhabit the same spaces. Even in urban areas, where education and economic class increasingly override caste, discrimination continues in subtle forms.”

“Indian law guarantees political and social equality to all citizens, but many Dalits - who fall outside the four-tier caste system - say they still are made to feel inferior. Poverty and social stigma, they say, tail them everywhere.”

“But Dalits increasingly are banding together against an ancient hierarchy they deem unjust and inhuman. One of the strongest rejoinders to this history of oppression comes from Dalit literature, or what Dalit author Sharankumar Limbale calls ``the burning cry of untouchables against the injustices of thousands of years.``

Hindu says…hehehehe.. Things better in urban areas….hehehehe… all jokers…..hehehehe getting better….hehehehe…read above….

reg 53, sorry, married her daughter to a dalit boy

my husband was studying in amritsar medical college in the seventies. he had two close dalit friends and they were welcome every where and ate in all their friends houses and everyone ate in their houses. in fact one of them married a khatri girl .we also had neighbours who were dalits and all the neighbours interacted with them, and recently last year my jat sikh neighbour married her son to a dalit sikh boy [maybe bec is in canada] times are changing , in the cities at least. no doubt in the villages there are still discrimination. it will take time for all these to change but it surely will

Re: # 44
Ach-choot hai.

``ACH`` IS OK, WHAT ABOUT CHOOT?

``how many Pundit died in Kashmir?…hehehhehe…another hoax by Hindus.``

I am sorry. Blame it on my well-established stupidity, but I didn`t get this. Please formulate your query in simpler english. Many thanks in advance.

kaura#48:

If you are thinking of beef, you are wrong. Most Panjabi Muslims, at least ``upper caste`` did not eat beef; many look down upon it even now. In any case, what would be the reason for dividing the well into ``hindu pani`` and ``muslim pani``?

#48, Kaura, {``there was a genuine reason for Hindus and Sikhs for not eating common with muslims. My grandparents did not.....and you are aware of those reasons too``}

OK, Kaura, Pray tell. What are those reasons? Is it because sometimes we Moose Limbs practice cannibalism? :)

DM,

there was a genuine reason for Hindus and Sikhs for not eating common with muslims. My grandparents did not.....and you are aware of those reasons too.

Raina Saheb:

I am sorry but the chances of your going back to your homes are not very high. I remember that when sikhs and hindus left their homes at the time of the partition, they doubled lock their homes and everyone expected to return after the ``rollay`` (turmoil) subsided. I do not know of even one who returned. [Before someone starts saying that the same happened on the other side, I should mention that some Muhajirs did indeed return to India during early fifties and ikka-dukka still does it legally or illegally]

...But let me ask you this question: Did you treat your Muslim neighbours as equals? I am asking this question because my sikh-hindu ancestors certainly did not do so. While they did have Muslim friends, they would serve them food in separate utensils in their homes which they would not even touch and would ask Muslims to pick up themselves and clean it after use. While they would visit their Muslim friends and neighbours, they did not eat food cooked by them, their friends instead would serve them food cooked by a Hindu neighbour or give them uncooked cereals, dal, etc. so that they could cook their own. They would ``divide`` the village well with a log placed across the middle, so that Muslim Pani could be separate from Hindu pani. This may seem strange to people today but this was the reality in West Punjab before partition. No wonder, they hated us the way that they did.

Unlike our ``nakli`` dalit insincere ramblings, here is some coverage about real dalits and their struggles.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0815/p15s01-lire.html

---

Dalit writing makes its mark
By Anupreeta Das | Contributor to The Christian Science Monitor
NEW DELHI - Next month, an autobiography called ``Untouchables: My Family`s Triumphant Journey Out of the Caste System in Modern India`` will hit American shores.

The author, Narendra Jadhav, head of economic research at the Reserve Bank of India, is also a Dalit or ``untouchable,`` a member of the bottom rung of India`s centuries-old caste system. His tale, which spans three generations, is an act both of political and literary assertion, he says.

``It is the story of my family, but at another level it is a story about the enormous social changes of the past 90 years and how it has liberated minds,`` he says of the book that was published in India as ``Outcaste: A Memoir`` in 2003.

Mr. Jadhav`s book is at the crest of a growing wave of Dalit writing that has been translated into English from various Indian languages and offered by mainstream publishers.

These books are often searing narratives of pain and suffering in the form of autobiographies, novels, and critical discourses. They bear testimony to the fact that today, as India marks its 58th anniversary of independence from British rule, as much as one-quarter of its population still faces discrimination and even violence resulting from caste divisions.

In rural India, Dalits cannot draw water from the same well as those from upper castes or inhabit the same spaces. Even in urban areas, where education and economic class increasingly override caste, discrimination continues in subtle forms.

Indian law guarantees political and social equality to all citizens, but many Dalits - who fall outside the four-tier caste system - say they still are made to feel inferior. Poverty and social stigma, they say, tail them everywhere.

But Dalits increasingly are banding together against an ancient hierarchy they deem unjust and inhuman. One of the strongest rejoinders to this history of oppression comes from Dalit literature, or what Dalit author Sharankumar Limbale calls ``the burning cry of untouchables against the injustices of thousands of years.``

Domestic demand and international curiosity have fueled the growth of Dalit writing in English. In recent months, at least 12 autobiographies and other narrative works by Dalit writers have been published in English. Today, mainstream publishers such as Sage, Macmillan, Penguin, and Oxford University Press consider three to four new manuscripts of translated Dalit writing a year; five years ago, it wasn`t even a category. In December 2003, India`s first publishing house devoted to caste issues, Navayana (``new vehicle``), opened for business.

Although Dalit writing in Indian languages has flourished for several decades, the shift to English is recent. ``English is the only tool that can connect the Dalits of India; and, being the language of modernity, it can connect people around the globe to the Dalit experience,`` says journalist Chandra Bhan Prasad, whose ``Dalit Diary,`` a collection of columns written for an English newspaper, sold out within six months of publication last year.

This growing market will benefit future writers as well as the entire Dalit community, says Gail Omvedt, a scholar of Dalit issues who is writing an academic paper on the anticaste movement. ``It`s definitely a good thing.... As more and more Dalits get educated, they will produce more and better writing,`` she says.

Recent titles in Dalit writing
Untouchables: My Family`s Triumphant Journey Out of the Caste System in Modern India, by Narendra Jadhav (Simon & Schuster, September 2005).

Sangati (Events), by Bama Faustina (Oxford University Press USA 2005; India 2004).

Angaliyat (Stepchild), by Joseph Macwan (Oxford University Press India, 2004).

Multiple Marginalities: An Anthology of Identified Dalit Writings, edited by Badri Narayan and A.R. Misra (Manohar, 2004).

Towards an Aesthetic of Dalit Literature: History, Controversies and Considerations, by Sharankumar Limbale (Orient Longman, 2004).

As we struggle with our difficult chores, let us think of others who had to struggle with theirs and could only say ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``

1. Gen Arora, accepting the surrender of 93,000 enemy troops in East Pakiland - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
2. US Consul, looking at the long line of visa applicants - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
3. Bangaldeshi ambassador, looking at the long line of work permit applicants - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
4. Illegal Mexican immigrant, waiting in line to be deported - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
5. Kaura Singh RabRiwalla, distributing free recycled Indian condoms in Lahore - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
6. Confused passenger, arriving at LaGuardia Airport and seeing the long line of taxis - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
7. New Scotland Yard, looking at suicide bombing suspects at Elephant & Caste station - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
8. Besieged Al-Kayda recruiter at Paki University campus - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
9. Gen Mushy looking at the list of his own assassination suspects - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
10. St. Peter, at the Pearly Gates, welcoming new arrivals to heaven - ``WHERE ARE THE PAKIS?``

This should now balance my ``TOO MANY INDIANS`` list. :)

Dillidost, #31,
Please be nice to Mr. Dalit. Many suspected that I was he at one time. Call it affinity, but I do appreciate his presence. In the famous words of Mangal Pandey aka Amir Khan:

``Hum sab achchoot heN.`` :)

Re: # 31
Abey Dalit,
You are not not making any sense these days.
Have you been drinking too much SOMA in Raggar Poora area of Delhi. do you know that this Dalit brand of liquor`s main ingredient is Methane Alcohol(CH3OH2), it can alter your mind state and you can die of erection or laughter.
Please be careful, I don`t want to loose a Village Idiot, errr.... I mean Chowk Idiot.

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#34, Anil {``Such initiative must remain non-political in nature, as there are Modis also present in India.``}

Anil, my friend, you may have the better approach, using successful leaders in business and non-governmental organizations. Regardless, it is the message that India is in favor or moderate Islam and peaceful Moose Limbs that needs to come out clearly. There is much animosity against UBL, Al-Kayda, and the Paki style of terrorism - at least in Turkey, it is very apparent to me.
Have a great week.

#33, Dillidost, {``We need some kind of EU type model for DESIland or else let us nuke each other and hope that there are no shelters and after 1000 years when DESIland is again habitable, people probably would be more tolerant, though it cannot be guaranteed.``}

A very friendly and warm Jhuppee to you too, my good friend. You are right, we need to bring these lost brothers together in some sort of an economic union that allows them to see their similarities, which far outnumber a few dogmatic differences, which they themselves have even in their own separate countries and sects.

Yaar, I have decided to stay on FP and not waste my time on UP, where all my messages and threads get deleted anyway.

Have a nice week.

Gujjubania careful u might have been the result of that one incher

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#35 by kaalchakra

Heheheh…hiding behind morality and good behavior….heheheheh…. not your cup of tea hindu….hehehehheheh…don’t extend yourself…heheheheh….you are an idiot and all on this site know that…..heheheheheh… stupid…..heheheheheh

how many Pundit died in Kashmir?…hehehhehe…another hoax by Hindus……hehehehehe

re: delhiwala # 25

Yaar, as you well know, in life, contradictory things are often true simultaneously. Dalits are truly privileged but they are also truly underprivileged.

Unless they are unemployed and looking for jobs in the government sector, few of our Brahmins will exchange places with dalits at the SAME economic level.

So we have ways to go. Real dalits (not Yoginder Sikand type ``dalits`) are determinedly inching ahead, though.

``Dalit will drop whole basket full of your fav. food in there``

Dear ``Dalit``

That is not a very nice thought.

You do not appear to respect dalits.

A real dalit can be as brilliant and logical as anyone else. Our modern Manu was a Dalit. Please don`t defame a whole group through your nickname and behavior.

---

Yoginder Sikand represents an extremely interesting aspect of Indian life that needs to be discussed at an opportune time.

Re: # 32

Salim:

Other than the re-integration of Pakistan, you most certainly have articulated a vision for Inidans. There are enough successful Muslim Indians in different walks of life (from IT, to pharmaceuticals, to bureaucrats, to academicians) to form a concorde and take initiative with like minded people and reach out in other countries that you have mentioned. Such initiative must remain non-political in nature, as there are Modis also present in India.

Anil

Re: # 32
Salim,
Big Juphee, yaar, what happened to Hiro and others.

Anyways, as usual you have the right choice of words oozing from your mouth, errr..... keyboard.

I never heard your last point from anybody else before i.e. India taking initiatives in Moderate Islam.
Unfortunately, the way it works in India is that major Political parties have some kind of under the table agreement that you give us your votes and we will let you do whatever and let you mind your own business. Whenever the Political Parties do not get what they want, the other oponent creates a mischief leading to communal violence.

Gujrat Muslims have been Congress supporters and that is why they were punished by BJP. Because BJP is primarily made up of business class who is trying to flex their muscles these days.

Anyways, Indian Muslims are probably more hardcore than your Majlis Party.

We need some kind of EU type model for DESIland or else let us nuke each other and hope that there are no shelters and after 1000 years when DESIland is again habitable, people probably would be more tolerant, though it cannot be guaranteed.

thanks.

#56, Ranjit {``Jinnah has single handedly ruined muslims in the subcontinent and reduced them to a non-entity. His policy ended up dividing muslims into three irrelevant, disjoint groups and pushed them to the fringe corners of the subcontinent. Hindus ended up getting the lion share of the real-estate.``}

Ranjit bhai,
It is not a matter of Muslims or Hindus getting the upper hand. Just like there is no such thing as monolithic Hinduism, believe me there is no such thing as united Islam, the Ummah, or Muslim rule. You ask ``Can you imagine if India had remained united in 1947?`` Yes, many of us can. As one can easily determine after watching Mangal Pandey, that is exactly what the British feared and what they prevented from happening.

Jinnah, while himself an honest, intelligent, and able man, was blinded by his own vanity, his jealousy of Gandhiji, and the influence of powerful economic interests of the Moose Limb business community of Bombay. They wanted to create a ``homeland`` for Moose Limbs, where they would hold sway economically without competition from the baniyas. ``Islam khatray meN hai`` is a convenient slogan to rally the Moose Limb sheep into any course, even a suicidal one.

You are correct in pointing out the right course for India. The breakup of Pakistan in 1971 was a brilliant move on the part of Indira Gandhi and her government. This permanently shattered the concept of ``Pakistan`` and set the stage for further dismemberment. The sensible course for India now would be to deny Pakistan the ``Moose Limb`` card. India, as the second largest Moose Limb country in the world, should genuinely take the lead in promoting moderate and progressive Islam. There are similar minded countries such as Turkey, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Indonesia, Central Asian ``Stans,`` and Malaysia that will join India in countering the jihadi alliance of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Tally Ban. Once India`s position as the logical choice of a model for Moose Limb progress is established, many benefits will ensue. Kashmiris will proudly proclaim their Indian citizenship, Indian Moose Limbs will count their blessings, moderate Paki Moose Limbs will see the beacon as a welcome alternative to their own wretched society, and the Moose Limb world will stop paying attention to Pakis` religious blackmail.

The reintegration of Pakiland into an undivided India is what will undo the evils of this partition. I know it is a difficult thing to accept for both, but it is the sensible path.

Peace

#30 by ranjit

Hehehehe…look at this holly Polly Hindu talking…..hehehehe…

Noone kicked Pundit out …heheheh….they left themselves…..heheheheh…with all their money and sold property at the right price…..heheheheh…consider this….hindu…heheheheh
How many Sikhs left when hindu killed them in Delhi….heheheheh
How many Muslims left when hindu killed them in Gujarat, Mumbai, or at many other places….hehehehehe
How many Dalit left their homes ….heheheh
ALL OVER INDIA
Every hour two Dalits are assaulted
Every day three Dalit women are raped
Every day two Dalits are murdered and two Dalit houses are burned in India

Pundit left after about ten of them were killed over a three years period….hehehehe…

Hehehehe… holly Polly hindu prove me wrong …there were no communal riots in Kashmir…hehehee…handful of pundit, way less than Sikhs, Muslims and Dalits, died….hehehehe….. Pundit left….heheheheh…

They SOLD their homes and PROPERTY....hehehehe....
what will they come back to…..hehehehehehe….

Mr. Raina,

We hindus will never let muslims and paksitanis win in Kashmir. It will never happen. They may have driven you out, but they will never be able to get out of India. As a proud hindu, I promise you that we will not let you down. If necessary, we will use nuclear weapons to keep it with us.

What you should do is to lobby Indian government to relax Article 356 so that hindus can migrate their en masse and change demographics there. If the pandits go back, you will remain a minority and can be thrown out again. But if millions of hindus from UP, Bihar, Rajasthan etc accompany you and take the place over, then your future is secure. That is what we need to do in the Kashmir valley.

Re: # 25

``Thank God Army does not have reservation or else..... ``

isn`t there an ex-serviceman quota?

hamidm#26

Since you are in such generous mood, maybe you can extend this invitation also to pindi-nay sikh bhapas who are still pining for their old city. [I actually remember hearing an old woman saying on a full-moon night: `ay chan pindi-nay chan varga nain`] :-)

Re: # 26 Afghani dalits... Good one!

Re: # 24

........... what is this post doing on this board - i thought this was about pandits in kashmir ........... not that i care about pandits or dalits or anyone else from the wrong side of the border ......... but since we are on the subject, what the heck is a pandit and what were they doing in kashmir in the first place ? ....... how did they get there and when did they leave and why can`t they go back ? ....... i thought only kashmiris lived in kashmir - one big happy family in that secular heaven known as hindustan ........

............ maybe the pandits should move to islamabad which has been run over by half a million afghani dalits - we will make room somehow ...

Dalit is a big ullu-da-patha,
I am not a Pandit but I can say for fact that there never have been any Dalit population of any significance in Kashmir ever, Jammu yes, Kashmir never.

How can he say such words? This guy is someone`s paid employee to spread misinformation.

Reality is that in India, it is a privilege to be considered a SC-ST. All my friends who got less than 400 in PMT and AIIMS are doctors these days. Thank God Army does not have reservation or else.....

A SC-ST Section Officer can become a JT Secretary others will stay where they are.
They are pushed to become IAS(special promotions)

Aslam #264, {``Salim...you have the support of all Indians on chowk (except Mr. Jagadeesh Paaandu Ghatiwala) ...``}

Thank you very much for your kind support. You remind me of a good friend from Bangalore. :)

Pakis, unfortunately, are very adept at alienating their own. First the Hindus and Sikhs who lived in Pakiland, then the Bengalis, then the Ahmedis, then Mohajirs, then Ismailis, other Shias, and now Baluchis, Kashmiris, Saraikis, and even Gilgitis and Baltistanis. Alienating one more of their own is not a major concern for them. I, however, have become much more appreciative of the freedoms that India offers. Much more than the economic progress, even more than the political maturity, it is the freedom of expression and an atmosphere of tolerance that distinguish India from Pakiland. Mr. Temporal and his gang of corrupt pseudo-liberal Paki oligarchs have caused me to be clearly in the Indian camp.

Mr. Temporal talks about ``scaring Chowkies away.`` If you remember, he tormented Mr. Ozer Khalid so much, that this young writer no longer visits Chowk. Ozer, like me was part Turkish, and perhaps that is the problem. Temporal and his supporters may be just racists and bigots - after all they hail from the Land of the Pure. They can`t believe that people do marry across racial divides. Well, my friend, we need to remind this hallucinating hooligan that being a Paki is now the lowest level of human existence on the planet. These Pakis are reviled for their corruption, their tyranny, their terroristic activities, and their miserably failed state. Being a Paki is nothing to crow about. If I were to invent a religious, ethnic, and national indentity for myself, I certainly would not select being a Moose Limb Paki. I speak the truth and these bigots can`t stand it.

I just hope that Mushy keeps whipping his danda on these errant Pakis and keeps them in line. They want to restore the ``good old`` days of Paki ``democracy`` when the privileged few looted the country and moved their ill-gotten gains to overseas accounts and holdings. That is why I oppose them and that is why they have silenced me.

Thanks again,
Salim

Salim , I totally agree with everything you say except your comments on tahmed32 (``I know Mr. Tahmed and believe me, Mr. Temporal, Sir, you are no Mr. Tahmed. He is brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical, and most of all not at all a hypocrite like you.``.....Huh ??!!!)....

......JEEZ man...just because tahmed32 is nice to you doesn`t make him `brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical` etc. etc. .....tahmed32 is just an old fool to be honest.

#17 kaalchakra

As usual, our so-called ``dalit`` friend is spreading cut-and-paste misinformation. Yoginder Sikand is referring to Jammu and Udhampur in his article, not to Kashmir valley. THese regions are south of the kashmir valley and culturally quite different (dogri and punjabi speaking, for example).

Jammu and Udhampur are culturally closer to Punjab on one side and Kangra valley on the other side. The region is about 60% hindu with all the usual groups present.

When it comes to ethnic cleansing and murder, no distinction will be made between one kind of idol worshopper or the other. Whether buddhist, dalit, jain or whatever, it makes no difference. We saw this in Pakistan in 40s and 50s (and more recently in Bangladesh). No amount of spurious propaganda from people like so-called ``dalit`` can disguise that.

August 13, 2005

...and now to teach the eunuch a lesson in objectivity

Khamkhwa {``this is what started it all...please don`t be confused with hiro who is salim who is also premwala...who is also a thousand other nicks...;) ``}

Again you lie and are blatantly engaged in yellow journalism. This is NOT what started it all. What started this particularly cycle of profanity was your action in causing my friends` and my messages and threads to be arbitrarily deleted. Because you and your cohorts, almost all Paki liberals assisted by one gay Mahratti from Pune, cannot debate issues successfully, you resort to deleting responses and preseting one-sided explanations. I do not blame you, of course, because this is typically Paki behavior. Let me explain and also try to return to the topic in hand:

The British citizens of Paki descent who bombed the London transportation system were not at all influenced by Pakis.
Kashmir belongs to Pakis because a majority of its people are Moose Limbs.
India started all the wars against Pakiland and Pakis won every one of them.
The Bengalis were committing horrible massacres in East Pakistan and they are traitors.
The US is wrong in being concerned about Pakis` leading role in planning and executing terrorism throughout the world.
Pakis who don`t agree with the Paki majority need to be muzzled and eliminated as traitors.
Ahmedis, Shias, Christians, Jews, Hindus are all kafirs and want to do Moose Limbs in.
Salim is NOT a Rajput, NOT a Turk, NOT Irani, NOT Shia, NOT educated, and definitely NOT a Paki. He must be something, but he is defintely not a Moose Limb and a Paki, otherwise he would not be speaking his mind and pointing out the truth.

Khamkhwa, you may have the power to regulate what is posted in threads and messages, but you CANNOT control what I say or do in real life. I am very disappointed by the so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Paki hypocrisy and I plan to expose it whereever and whenever I have the opportunity.

You are not so bright, are you?

Salim



August 13, 2005

A far far more stupid person than we understood him to be.

Mr. Temporal,
Please do not resort to insulting me with your abuse via alternate means by addressing Mr. Hamidm2 and Mr. Tahmed as if you were educating them about the imminent amoral atmosphere on Chowk.

Sir, and I use the word hesitatingly, you are a fraud, a hypocrite, and a charlatan. You accuse me of using profanity and have not offered a single word about the vulgarity used by Saminasha, Scout, Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, and Atif. You have been an amused spectator when Scout has fantasized about ``penises rotting and falling off.`` You were peculiarly silent when Saminasha referred to my young, religious wife as a ``Turkish whore.`` You were definitely one-sided in your deafening silence about the abuse Atif has been hurling at me, Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Montag, Mr. Arjun, and Mr. Delhiwalla. You have even encouraged the feces-mouthed Succubus in her abusive rage against my female relatives. Very recently I offered proof of dirty, filthy, and intolerable language posted by several so-called ``females`` such as Succubus, Scout, Saminasha, and Mizz Nadia. ``Women,`` who want to be treated with the respect they demand as the ``fairer`` sex, need to refrain from using unlady-like language with which they are often caught with their pants down. And then ``men,`` such as Atif aka Dr. Israr Ahmed and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, have been using abusive, horrible, and dirty language against other men and their female relatives. But belonging to the Brahmin cast of Chowk, they and their ``she-male`` pom pom girls are immune from being muzzled and being banned.

So, Mr. Hypocrite, now do you understand why some of us have to resort to multiple nics? By banning people with whom you and your cohorts disagree, by deleting their polite and reasonable messages, and by erasing their threads, you yourselves are forcing us to resort to multiple nics and evasive measures.

Mr. Temporal, you have often complained about the draconian measures employed by the military dictators in Pakiland. I must say I am pleased to note your plight and your consternation at being muzzled, being banned, and being arbitrarily barred from decision making in your wretched country. The Lahore Marathon, the Mukhtar Mai tragedy, the Dr. Shazia injustice are all testatments to your utter failure in being credible. When you practice intolerance yourself, it is natural that others will do unto you what you are doing to others. You deserve every Yahya, every Zia, every Musharraf that is imposed on your miserable lives.

Mr. Temporal, YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER, and please don`t ever compare yourself to Mr. Tahmed. I know Mr. Tahmed and believe me, Mr. Temporal, Sir, you are no Mr. Tahmed. He is brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical, and most of all not at all a hypocrite like you.

By the way, I do not care what you think. Go ahead and label me as you wish. You are so perceptive that you have determined or negated my ethnic, religious, national, and residential identitiies, or lack of them. You know, you are even more stupid than I gave you credit for.

Salim


The rejected ``lover`` keeps coming back for more

Succubus,
I wanted to ignore you, but you insist on continuing your macabre act of playing a victim. You have insulted in very vivid and horrible profanity me and my family, including my mother and my sister-in-law. Even now you resort to using words such as ``jackass.`` I assure you that you do not have to interact with me for any reason. You started this series of insidious remarks against me and I just wanted to give you an ample response. The so-called ``40 thousand`` identities are due to the prevailing atmosphere of biased, one-sided, and definitely Paki-style of censorship found on Chowk, where they muzzle opinion they don`t like and ban interactor with whom they disagree. I would have been content with my own initial nic.

Please get over me. I am not interested in you and do not want to get into another slugfest with the likes of you. Get on with your life, I have.

Thanks,
Salim

Use of abusive language by Pakis - a she-male no doubt

Another example of ``polite`` interaction by Pakis, this time a ``female`` no doubt. Notice the use of expletives in almost every sentence. She can`t put together sixteen words without using fu ck, sh it, or ass:

{``#8 by Mizz_Nadia on August 12, 2005 4:55pm PT
Injuns getting proud of a industry that sucks money outta the public...Thats fucked up....and hilarious...

Wouldnt it b better if they gave half of what they earn to the Indian public and clean up the cow shitted streets ...and put sum clothes on those nasty ass women with sagging bodies....

Better put money towards having the ganges purified what with all that shit floatin in it....grosss.... :}

And these are the literate she-males of Pakiland, the Land of the Pure. Notice the free use of ``invented`` verbs and adjectives.

Salim



August 13, 2005

Circumventing the malicious deletion of my viewpoint by Khamkhwa and Chowk Staff

Now that Khamkhwa and his Chowk Staff cohorts are deleting my responses, I am compelled to repeat them here. Please read and accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this one-sided, biased, and repressive Paki website.
Mr. Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Hoshiyaar Hole, You Jhoot Bole.
******************************************************
Is this what you meant by polite interaction when you were pontificating about Salim and Mr. Tahmed in this forum earlier?

{``#5 by JagdeeshGodbole on August 13, 2005 6:29am PT
delhiwala why dont you take your history and shove it up your ass``}

You Jagdeesh are a hypocrite.

Salim
****************************************
Hypocrisy

Is this what Succubus, Atif, Scout, Saminasha, and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidble mean by polite interactin and refrain from abusive language?


#2 by atif2 on August 12, 2005 5:30am PT
arjun madarchod idiotic smelly injun - instead of gloating over these human rights abuses, you should be condemning them.
***********************************************
Advice to Ms Succubus
In the case of Ms. Succubus, I think it is simply a case of ``sour grapes.``

Succu,
I am happily married. Please find someone else and hopefully you will be able to get rid of some of your own personal rage. Who knows you could possibly channel all this negative energy into something, let`s say, productive and fun.
Sounds like a case of ``sour`` grapes to me.

Response to Nonsense from Succubus

Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that, just like your sense of humor, your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.

By the way, you said ``As you have done earlier, please do not take this personal.`` The correct word that you should have used here is ``personally`` and not ``personal.``
Please don`t take this advice personally. In my desire to enlighten Pakis and encourage them to use proper English, I invariably end up rectifying their use of this foreign language. I can`t believe that the standards of academic attainment have sunk to this low level in the UAE. And they are about to give you a degree?

Salim
******************************************

Thank you, my friends

Mr. Tahmed, Monty, and Jang,

Thank you for your kind words and attempt to respond to Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Atif, KK, and the other members of the Scout/Saminasha gang. While they constantly whine about my verbal ``abuse`` hurled at them, they conveniently neglect to confess to their own substantially vulgar attacks on me, my wife, my sister-in-law, and my mother. Just recently, Saminasha posted, right here on FP, a remark referring to my wife as a ``Turkish whore.``
Yes, I do respond and as I have often said with ten times the effect. I can`t help it, that`s the American way and I AM an American. Usually, I am quite a gentle, polite, and compassionate interactor, whose only desire is to laugh and bring laughter to others. But once this gang of Scout, Saminasha and their cohorts resorts to lewd and vulgar assaults on me and my family, I am entitled to teach them a lesson in ``French`` - and that is exactly what they receive.
I apologize to Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Dilliwalla, Mr. Jang, Ms Zeena, Mr. Montag, and other fine friends for any inconvenience that may have come their way because of their friendship with me.

Salim
******************************************************
Response to Nonsense from Succubus

#165, Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that just like your sense of humor your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.

Salim :)

Re: # 18

Dalit:

When you quote from some website, it`s better to give references, like who the author is and what website it is taken from. so that readers can figure out how much worth it is..

It looks like you have taken this from

countercurrents.org - written by Yoginder Sikand

Some other articles from that website would prove where it stands on many issues and it`s no wonder you can find such articles there..

#17

http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Hindus.pdf


Jammu & Kashmir population 10,143,700, Hindu Population 3,005,349 29.6%

hehehehe….. how many of 3 million Hindu are upper caste Kashmiri Pundit…heheheheh….Learn about things before opening your stinky/potty mouth……hehehehehe ….

hehehehe…you open your sewer mouth too much…..heheheheheh….Dalit will drop whole basket full of your fav. food in there....heheheheheh....

Dalits in Kashmir

Under Shaikh Abdullah, Jammu and Kashmir was the first state to implement land reforms, as a result of which a large number of landless Dalit labourers received plots of land of their own. The economic conditions of the Dalits has thereby improved, and although the majority of the Dalits continue to work as labourers, artisans and petty shopkeepers, there is a small Dalit middle class, consisting almost entirely of government servants, who form the backbone of the fledgling Ambedkarite movement in the state. Despite the improvement in the Dalits` economic conditions, however, caste discrimination continues to be rampant, especially in the villages in the hilly regions of Jammu, Kathua and Udhampur. I was told stories of Dalits being forced to leave their villages by Rajput landlords for daring to take out a marriage procession in the streets, of Dalits being refused houses on rent, of Dalit students suffering the taunts of `upper` caste students and so on. R.L. Jangral, who is one of the most senior Dalit officers in the Kashmir Administrative Services, relates how, when he was a lecturer in a college in Jammu, a Brahmin landlord refused to rent him his house simply because of his caste. `Such things are still widespread`, he says.

`Hindu Rashtra has no place for Dalits, except for at the bottom of the heap`, insisted Nathu Ram, a young Dalit school teacher whom I met at the office Dr. Ambedkar Education Foundation, one of the only two Dalit organisations in Jammu. `Hinduism or Hindutva or call it what you will is simply a means to preserve and promote Aryan hegemony`, he forcefully argued. Yet, he conceded that many Dalits are ardent supporters of the BJP. `They want to be known as super-Hindus in order that the `upper` castes accept them`, he explained. At the same time as he bitterly denounced the BJP and Hindu supremacist groups, he came down heavily on Islamist militants in Kashmir. Although there are virtually no non-Muslim Dalits in the Kashmir Valley, he feared that if the state were to join Pakistan, the plight of the Dalits would only be further exacerbated. `Groups like the Lashkar see all non-Muslims, no matter what their caste or class, as, by definition, enemies of God. How could we ever agree to live under them?`, he asked. However, he claimed that relations between Dalits and Muslims in Jammu were fairly cordial, noting that while many `upper` caste Hindus treated Dalits as untouchables, the Muslims, in general, did not.

All the activists present on the occasion were in government service, a reminder that Dalits still cannot hope to rise up in the `upper` caste controlled private sector. Even as relatively privileged members of their society many of them continued to face caste discrimination. Few of them had any `high` caste Hindu friends, although some had good Muslim and Christian acquaintances. A consensus seemed to prevail at the meeting that religious conversion was the only way out for them, for they could, they believed, never find equality and acceptance in Hinduism. `In Hinduism there is no concept of a human being plain and simple. You are always identified as a member of one caste or the other, and the `upper` castes call us as Hindus only to inflate Hindu numbers`, said a Dalit youth who teaches in a village school. Most of the men in the room felt that the solution lay in conversion to Buddhism, and some said that they planned to take the step in the near future. Yet, they also agreed that many Dalits who had not been influenced by the Ambedarite movement would not follow them. `They think they can shed their `low` caste identity by joining a Hindu sect and claiming to be Rajput or Brahmin, but this does not work in the long run`, they insisted.

Dalits account for almost a tenth of the population of Jammu and Kashmir or about a third of the population of Jammu province, but in discussions about the Kashmir question the Dalit voice is almost completely absent. Typically, the Hindus of the state are treated as a homogenous whole, although sometimes a distinction is made between the Pundits of the Valley and the Dogras of Jammu. It is, however, crucial to bring in the Dalit perspective when examining inter-community relations in Jammu and Kashmir, not only because of the numerical importance of the Dalits but also because they are among the most marginalised communities in the state.

There are 13 Scheduled Castes in Jammu and Kashmir, and the state`s Dalit population is almost entirely concentrated in the Jammu province. In addition to the Dalits who are counted as Hindus are numerous Dalit groups who have converted to Sikhism, Christianity and Islam. According to T.R. Azad, a leading Ambedkarite activist from Jammu, historically the Dalits of the state, as elsewhere in India, have converted in large numbers to various religions in search of liberation from the caste system and the Brahminical religion that provides it religious sanction. Many Dalits who are today counted as Hindus follow sectarian traditions that are markedly egalitarian and anti-Brahminical, such as the Ravidasi panth and the Kabirpanth.

Dalit

To get back to the astonishing fact - ``Dalits in Kashmir outnumber Pundits but no Dalit has left Kashmir,`` could you shine some more light on it, please?

Kashmiri Pundit exploited, looted, and controlled all jobs and lands in Kashmir. They were never victimized by anyone. In fact, they victimized and were responsible for the most heinous crimes against Muslims and Dalit in Kashmir.

They left because one group of oppressed people picked up arms against the oppression and the pundit seeing no future for their kind of exploitation left the area.

Is there a comparison of number of Dalits and Muslims killed by this Hindu upper caste chauvinist since 1947 in India to the number of Kashmiri Pundit killed in communal riots in Kashmir? The ratio would be 50000:1

Muslims never left Gujarat or UP after the Communal riots but Pundit left because it was the first time in India after 1947 that these upper caste Hindus took a beating in communal riots.
A game they love but only when upper caste Hindus are killing Dalits and other minorities in India.

re: pmisra2 # 12

I should have seen that :(

But may be our friend has something to tell us about Kashmir that is directly relevant to the discussion.

I had no idea that ``Dalits in Kashmir outnumber Pundits but no Dalit has left Kashmir.`` Facts can always be checked.

# 11

Dalit, tell us about the Dalits in Kashmir.

---

That was a very good post, indeed. It was good because it had a lot of truth in it. There are some statements that are absurd in the extreme (Dalits are not permitted to enter into the ``streets`` of other castes? forced to reside in separate settlements? denied the right to move freely through the streets?! forced to beg??!! etc ), but others are still true in many parts of India. Or at least were true until about a decade ago in and around the area I come from.

National Human Rights Commission’s (NHRC) ``Report on Prevention of Atrocities against Scheduled Castes``

“Violence against Dalits has its distinctiveness of being embedded in the social structure of the dominated by the upper caste. It is the caste-based hierarchical structure that lays down the norm of conduct for human relationship between its more privileged groups and the subdued and subordinate ones. The report also says, ``it is the caste relationship in Hindu society which is getting disturbed by forces of pressure both from above and below. The frequency and intensity of violence is an offshoot of desperate attempts by the upper caste groups to protect their entrenched status against the process of disengagement and upward mobility among lower castes resulting from affirmative action of State policy``

The ground has thus been made more fertile for tension and unrest to grow in many parts of the country. The situation has also turned ripe for communal and casteist forces to sow the seeds of division and discord and indulge in violence. Dalits, being the most vulnerable of the poor are the worst hit, with atrocities against them continuing in a number of states. The violence takes brutal forms and turns into acts of atrocities against the whole group of people, such as massacre, rape, burning of houses and through more subtle methods like social boycott, which intended to block their access to basic necessities and services.
Whenever such atrocities against Dalits involving loss of life and property are reported, human rights and Dalit activists complain that the police are generally reluctant to file cases under the stringent provisions of the Atrocities Act. They generally book cases either under the Indian Penal Code (IPC) or at best, under the Protection of Civil Rights (PCR) Act, 1955, much milder than the Atrocities Act. This often results in the culprits going scot-free. Leaving the culprits scot-free is in a way arming them which in fact gives them more confidence and courage to carryon such activities without any difficult in future. “

#11 fake ``dalit``

Your silly propaganda has been exposed more than 10 times. This is a public forum so you are welcome to do whatever you want but no one is going to take your propaganda seriously anymore.

Why is a Kashmir pundit problem that is confined to a small part of a disputed area more important than the plight of Dalits ALL OVER INDIA?

Those who talk about the displacement of may be two hundred thousand Pundits (and that too is an exaggeration) why always ignore Dalit that are almost 20%( or more) of Indian population. The Caste Hindu would make a whole nonsensical story about his own kind but have fits when Dalit issue is brought up.

Dalits in Kashmir outnumber Pundits but no Dalit has left Kashmir. Pundits left because they knew that their control of jobs and economy of Kashmir was challenged by the oppressed in that area.

ALL OVER INDIA
Every hour two Dalits are assaulted
Every day three Dalit women are raped
Every day two Dalits are murdered and two Dalit houses are burned in India
This is according to the official report on crime against Dalits. Dalit means broken, discriminated, disowned, subjugated, and a victim of apartheid.

1, Dalits are not permitted to enter into the streets and houses of other castes. Dalits should not touch others or be touched by others.

2, Dalits are forced to reside in separate settlements (called Cheri or Colony), which further reinforces the stigma of untouchability. Seclusion at outskirts of the village or settlement may rightly be called social boycott or ostracism.

3, Concepts like ``defilement (Theetu in Tamil), pollution, impurity, and exclusion`` are blatantly attributed to the Dalits. The idea that impurity can be transmitted by mere touch of an untouchable or by his approach within a certain distance prevails throughout Tamil Nadu.

4, Provision of separate tea glasses in 2000 villages of Tamil Nadu (serving tea in tins separately allocated only for Dalits) is common in public tea stalls. Dalits are served tea, not in glasses or mud cups like people of other castes, but in aluminum tins.

5, Dalits are not allowed to fetch water from common water sources-wells, tanks, and ponds. Village wells are still out of the reach of the Dalits.

6, Dalits are not allowed to utilize the services of barbers or washermen.
7, Dalits are not allowed to bathe in common water sources.

8, Dalits are denied the right to move freely through the streets of other caste people. Even the dead bodies of Dalits are not allowed to be taken to burial grounds through the other-caste streets.

9, Dalits are not permitted to use benches to sit in the village bus stops.
10, Dalits are forced to stand, or give way to other caste people, on the roads. They are also forced to use narrow dirt tracks.

11, Dalits are prohibited to wear chappals in the streets of other-caste people. They must carry them in their hands and walk barefoot.

12, The labor of Dalits is exploited in the name of bondage by advancing money or ``Padiyal`` (slave workers).

13, Dalits are paid lower wages than those prescribed in the Minimum Wages Act, and are given cash without being touched.

14, People of other castes often extract free, compulsory labor from Dalits.

15, In the name of religious rituals, Dalits are often forced to beg for food in the houses of other-caste people.

16, Dalit women who work as agricultural hired workers regularly face physical abuse and sexual exploitation from the landowners, who normally belong to other castes.

rajeshk4u

The Pakistani flag does have a white bar on one side.

1. It is really sad what is happening in Kashmir. I only wish that peace will prevail.
2. When the Partition of India happened in 1947. The Pakistanis kicked out the Hindu Sindhis. They stole their homes, businesses and even their heritage and they had to flee with nothing!. So they don`t have a motherland!.
3. But when Isreal did the same to the Arabs, the Muslim world is ``jumping`` up and down. They hickjack planes, bomb buildings, kidnap westerns.
4. Even people in India, don`t know the plight of the Hindu Sindhis, because we choose to be ignorant of our history.
5. Now you have the same thing happening in Kashmir. With Hindus getting kicked out.
6. Muslims will stick by their Muslims brothers. They have formed a united front. So when they are the victims, they have a fighting force, yet when Muslims are the ``villans`` they never admit they are guily and claim they are going a ``Jihad`` and it is ``God`s`` will etc...
7. Muslims justify Murder by claiming it to be ``Jihad`` (holy war)... There is no justification for Murder!
7. It is funny the Indian flag has 3 colours (orange for Hindus & green for Muslims). Yet the Pakistan flag is green only for Muslims!

#7 by delhiwala on August 13, 2005 8:27am PT


What about my ancesstral property in Muzaffrabad and Kohalla


All such considerations only apply to muslims...

Don`t you know the basic Islamist tenets?

1. When muslims conquer non-muslim land, that`s part of the glorious muslims past and is to be celebrated.
2. When non-muslims conquer muslim land, that`s a historic grievance to be felt by all true muslims( however disconnected they might be from that event..e.g. pakis i.e. wannabe arabs whining about the crusades...)
3. If a muslim sets foot on a non-muslim land and displaces the local populace, that land becomes muslim land till eternity.
4. If a non-muslim entity sets foot on a muslim land and displaces muslims, that`s a genuine grievance to be mourned by the whole world...

What about my ancesstral property in Muzaffrabad and Kohalla, where my Nana started a Dharamsal(Gurudwara), all the stories of my family members riding horses across the bridge over river jhelum and the low sunset.
What about tonnes of Sikhs of Muzaffrabad, who were killed by Nawab himself with his own .12 barrel shotgun after their refusal to change their religion? Same Nawab`s ancesstors were given the Nawabi by Nalwa overlooking Peshawar and Kashmir.

What about all the Dhars, Kauls, Balis, Fotedars, Dars, Maliks, Kapurs, Nalwais, Uppals, Marwaha, Abrols, Angreshs?
All of them were Sikhs, What about our Gurudwaras in Ladhak and other parts of Kashmir.


All this is pathetic, I am going for a swim now it is 110 with heat index, all this talk has made me more Sick and Sikh than I was ever before.

Why can`t we have our lives back as they used to be under British? yeah, let us call Angrez back.

I DONT HATE PAKISTANIS BUT I WANT EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE. NOT JUST HINDUS, MUSLIMS BUT ALSO ANY OTHER group.

Thank you for listening!

Another fascist idol worshipper makes ugly claims against the righteous kashmiri freedom fighters! Thank goodness that Farzana-ji has exposed the ugliness and greed in the hearts of people like these.

Raina-sahib, please understand the root cause and stop this ``sensible`` hindu whining. The root cause is a system of thought that is present in islam that supports violence against the other in defense of perceived injustice. This is why otherwise intelligent muslims are always ready to say ``yes, but....`` when confronted with evidence of hatred and bigotry in their traditions. This is what allows muslim youth to ``feel good`` as they attack and destroy the other.

You and your culture have been defeated by this ideology. The question is still open whether the indian nation has the guts and paitence to confront it. It will be a long confrontation and it will take several generations before it is over.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Mr Raina,
I can assure you that you will never be able to live abd prosper in Kashmir ever again, like your ancesstors used to be. At best you might be able to visit as a tourist and offered a cup of Kahwa by your Muslim neighbours.
It is the sad part, and I hope that I am wrong but I cannot shut my eyes to the reality when I say this.

Every talks about Pandits of Kashmir, what about Sikhs of Kashmir who have moved out?

They don`t count I guess because it is Muslim and Hindus who want Kashmir.

First, I’m really glad you went back for a visit and retained a sense of connection to your ancestral place. The unfortunate fact of life is that any kind of bonding – with imposed separation – can only weaken over time (a feeling most immigrants can fully identify with (even though the circumstances leading to such separation are completely different, of course)) – from both sides.

I am really glad you wrote this piece. When politics, communal colors, and the rest of the other artificial (man-made) covers are removed, life is about little individuals – coming home for the night to a place they can call home – where they can feel safe – or did at one time. The longing for a home lost, in many ways, can feel a bit like what amputees feel about the lost limb (from how I have heard it described) – one feels an occasional desire to reach for it and touch it – even though it no longer exists in reality.

My overall views on the whole issue of Kashmiri Pandits being dispossessed are strong – and remain so. I expressed them earlier on another board. I quote what I consider the relevant portions here:

`` ...I would like to address a few words to the Kashmiri Pandits who suffered – directly or through their relations.

Many have failed you!

I and individuals like me are strong believers in the Second amendment – the ultimate responsibility for an individual’s defense lies with the individual! There are good reasons for that amendment in the U.S. In India, I see some of those same reasons in place in states like Bihar (and perhaps other parts of the country), where individuals and families have taken to arms in their own defense – to protect themselves – because even though they were originally law-abiding citizens, there was nobody to protect them – from tough men, from corrupt politicians, from hordes of masses who simply outnumbered them. Government is a necessary evil and it is rarely a reliable protector even in the most developed and most civilized of places, mostly it protects its own vested interests, which only tend to enlarge over time! India, of course is still developing.

Having said all of that, YOU, and not people in far-away places (within and outside India) are the best judges of what makes sense – to stay put or to escape – in a given situation! You had the right to make that call – and you did! Those of you who could – chose the way that suited you best – including escape – to survive.

No HONEST Indian would begrudge your escaping with your lives intact, then building up new lives! It’s one of the toughest things to do in life – starting over! ... In many respects, it mirrors what the Jewish people went through after the holocaust ...!... Those who survived that terrible ordeal have proved their mettle by coming out and being able to deal with the hardship successfully, and by becoming positive contributors!``

Lastly, the answer to the key question – will the Pandits ever return home – in my view is the same as that to – will the sub continental mind-set ever change. At the time, it looks unlikely, but don’t count out India’s resilience, its ability to adapt, and the many wonderful things that are yet to – but are sure to happen – and for all one knows, such a return could be one of those wonderful surprises down the road! Perhaps the tree of enlightenment can someday indeed grow there like that tall pine tree in your compound – which was not originally expected. We just don’t know how long the road could be – human eyes can only see up to the next turn at a time.

they were eating a meal? that means they were well off and deserved what they got anyway....

Gunmen attack village in Kashmir

Suspected Islamists have killed five Hindus and injured nine more in an attack on a remote mountain village in India`s section of Kashmir, police say.

They struck as Hindu family members ate their evening meal together, a police official said. Three of the injured are in a serious condition.

I hope you are able to permanently return home one day.

A vast majority of those Punjabis and Sindhis that were kicked out of Pakistan never had a chance to see their ancestral homes again.