Will Kashmiri Pandits Ever Return to their Abode…?

Dalit

To get back to the astonishing fact - ``Dalits in Kashmir outnumber Pundits but no Dalit has left Kashmir,`` could you shine some more light on it, please?

Dalits in Kashmir

Under Shaikh Abdullah, Jammu and Kashmir was the first state to implement land reforms, as a result of which a large number of landless Dalit labourers received plots of land of their own. The economic conditions of the Dalits has thereby improved, and although the majority of the Dalits continue to work as labourers, artisans and petty shopkeepers, there is a small Dalit middle class, consisting almost entirely of government servants, who form the backbone of the fledgling Ambedkarite movement in the state. Despite the improvement in the Dalits` economic conditions, however, caste discrimination continues to be rampant, especially in the villages in the hilly regions of Jammu, Kathua and Udhampur. I was told stories of Dalits being forced to leave their villages by Rajput landlords for daring to take out a marriage procession in the streets, of Dalits being refused houses on rent, of Dalit students suffering the taunts of `upper` caste students and so on. R.L. Jangral, who is one of the most senior Dalit officers in the Kashmir Administrative Services, relates how, when he was a lecturer in a college in Jammu, a Brahmin landlord refused to rent him his house simply because of his caste. `Such things are still widespread`, he says.

`Hindu Rashtra has no place for Dalits, except for at the bottom of the heap`, insisted Nathu Ram, a young Dalit school teacher whom I met at the office Dr. Ambedkar Education Foundation, one of the only two Dalit organisations in Jammu. `Hinduism or Hindutva or call it what you will is simply a means to preserve and promote Aryan hegemony`, he forcefully argued. Yet, he conceded that many Dalits are ardent supporters of the BJP. `They want to be known as super-Hindus in order that the `upper` castes accept them`, he explained. At the same time as he bitterly denounced the BJP and Hindu supremacist groups, he came down heavily on Islamist militants in Kashmir. Although there are virtually no non-Muslim Dalits in the Kashmir Valley, he feared that if the state were to join Pakistan, the plight of the Dalits would only be further exacerbated. `Groups like the Lashkar see all non-Muslims, no matter what their caste or class, as, by definition, enemies of God. How could we ever agree to live under them?`, he asked. However, he claimed that relations between Dalits and Muslims in Jammu were fairly cordial, noting that while many `upper` caste Hindus treated Dalits as untouchables, the Muslims, in general, did not.

All the activists present on the occasion were in government service, a reminder that Dalits still cannot hope to rise up in the `upper` caste controlled private sector. Even as relatively privileged members of their society many of them continued to face caste discrimination. Few of them had any `high` caste Hindu friends, although some had good Muslim and Christian acquaintances. A consensus seemed to prevail at the meeting that religious conversion was the only way out for them, for they could, they believed, never find equality and acceptance in Hinduism. `In Hinduism there is no concept of a human being plain and simple. You are always identified as a member of one caste or the other, and the `upper` castes call us as Hindus only to inflate Hindu numbers`, said a Dalit youth who teaches in a village school. Most of the men in the room felt that the solution lay in conversion to Buddhism, and some said that they planned to take the step in the near future. Yet, they also agreed that many Dalits who had not been influenced by the Ambedarite movement would not follow them. `They think they can shed their `low` caste identity by joining a Hindu sect and claiming to be Rajput or Brahmin, but this does not work in the long run`, they insisted.

Dalits account for almost a tenth of the population of Jammu and Kashmir or about a third of the population of Jammu province, but in discussions about the Kashmir question the Dalit voice is almost completely absent. Typically, the Hindus of the state are treated as a homogenous whole, although sometimes a distinction is made between the Pundits of the Valley and the Dogras of Jammu. It is, however, crucial to bring in the Dalit perspective when examining inter-community relations in Jammu and Kashmir, not only because of the numerical importance of the Dalits but also because they are among the most marginalised communities in the state.

There are 13 Scheduled Castes in Jammu and Kashmir, and the state`s Dalit population is almost entirely concentrated in the Jammu province. In addition to the Dalits who are counted as Hindus are numerous Dalit groups who have converted to Sikhism, Christianity and Islam. According to T.R. Azad, a leading Ambedkarite activist from Jammu, historically the Dalits of the state, as elsewhere in India, have converted in large numbers to various religions in search of liberation from the caste system and the Brahminical religion that provides it religious sanction. Many Dalits who are today counted as Hindus follow sectarian traditions that are markedly egalitarian and anti-Brahminical, such as the Ravidasi panth and the Kabirpanth.

#17

http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Hindus.pdf


Jammu & Kashmir population 10,143,700, Hindu Population 3,005,349 29.6%

hehehehe….. how many of 3 million Hindu are upper caste Kashmiri Pundit…heheheheh….Learn about things before opening your stinky/potty mouth……hehehehehe ….

hehehehe…you open your sewer mouth too much…..heheheheheh….Dalit will drop whole basket full of your fav. food in there....heheheheheh....

Re: # 18

Dalit:

When you quote from some website, it`s better to give references, like who the author is and what website it is taken from. so that readers can figure out how much worth it is..

It looks like you have taken this from

countercurrents.org - written by Yoginder Sikand

Some other articles from that website would prove where it stands on many issues and it`s no wonder you can find such articles there..

August 13, 2005

...and now to teach the eunuch a lesson in objectivity

Khamkhwa {``this is what started it all...please don`t be confused with hiro who is salim who is also premwala...who is also a thousand other nicks...;) ``}

Again you lie and are blatantly engaged in yellow journalism. This is NOT what started it all. What started this particularly cycle of profanity was your action in causing my friends` and my messages and threads to be arbitrarily deleted. Because you and your cohorts, almost all Paki liberals assisted by one gay Mahratti from Pune, cannot debate issues successfully, you resort to deleting responses and preseting one-sided explanations. I do not blame you, of course, because this is typically Paki behavior. Let me explain and also try to return to the topic in hand:

The British citizens of Paki descent who bombed the London transportation system were not at all influenced by Pakis.
Kashmir belongs to Pakis because a majority of its people are Moose Limbs.
India started all the wars against Pakiland and Pakis won every one of them.
The Bengalis were committing horrible massacres in East Pakistan and they are traitors.
The US is wrong in being concerned about Pakis` leading role in planning and executing terrorism throughout the world.
Pakis who don`t agree with the Paki majority need to be muzzled and eliminated as traitors.
Ahmedis, Shias, Christians, Jews, Hindus are all kafirs and want to do Moose Limbs in.
Salim is NOT a Rajput, NOT a Turk, NOT Irani, NOT Shia, NOT educated, and definitely NOT a Paki. He must be something, but he is defintely not a Moose Limb and a Paki, otherwise he would not be speaking his mind and pointing out the truth.

Khamkhwa, you may have the power to regulate what is posted in threads and messages, but you CANNOT control what I say or do in real life. I am very disappointed by the so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Paki hypocrisy and I plan to expose it whereever and whenever I have the opportunity.

You are not so bright, are you?

Salim



August 13, 2005

A far far more stupid person than we understood him to be.

Mr. Temporal,
Please do not resort to insulting me with your abuse via alternate means by addressing Mr. Hamidm2 and Mr. Tahmed as if you were educating them about the imminent amoral atmosphere on Chowk.

Sir, and I use the word hesitatingly, you are a fraud, a hypocrite, and a charlatan. You accuse me of using profanity and have not offered a single word about the vulgarity used by Saminasha, Scout, Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, and Atif. You have been an amused spectator when Scout has fantasized about ``penises rotting and falling off.`` You were peculiarly silent when Saminasha referred to my young, religious wife as a ``Turkish whore.`` You were definitely one-sided in your deafening silence about the abuse Atif has been hurling at me, Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Montag, Mr. Arjun, and Mr. Delhiwalla. You have even encouraged the feces-mouthed Succubus in her abusive rage against my female relatives. Very recently I offered proof of dirty, filthy, and intolerable language posted by several so-called ``females`` such as Succubus, Scout, Saminasha, and Mizz Nadia. ``Women,`` who want to be treated with the respect they demand as the ``fairer`` sex, need to refrain from using unlady-like language with which they are often caught with their pants down. And then ``men,`` such as Atif aka Dr. Israr Ahmed and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, have been using abusive, horrible, and dirty language against other men and their female relatives. But belonging to the Brahmin cast of Chowk, they and their ``she-male`` pom pom girls are immune from being muzzled and being banned.

So, Mr. Hypocrite, now do you understand why some of us have to resort to multiple nics? By banning people with whom you and your cohorts disagree, by deleting their polite and reasonable messages, and by erasing their threads, you yourselves are forcing us to resort to multiple nics and evasive measures.

Mr. Temporal, you have often complained about the draconian measures employed by the military dictators in Pakiland. I must say I am pleased to note your plight and your consternation at being muzzled, being banned, and being arbitrarily barred from decision making in your wretched country. The Lahore Marathon, the Mukhtar Mai tragedy, the Dr. Shazia injustice are all testatments to your utter failure in being credible. When you practice intolerance yourself, it is natural that others will do unto you what you are doing to others. You deserve every Yahya, every Zia, every Musharraf that is imposed on your miserable lives.

Mr. Temporal, YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER, and please don`t ever compare yourself to Mr. Tahmed. I know Mr. Tahmed and believe me, Mr. Temporal, Sir, you are no Mr. Tahmed. He is brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical, and most of all not at all a hypocrite like you.

By the way, I do not care what you think. Go ahead and label me as you wish. You are so perceptive that you have determined or negated my ethnic, religious, national, and residential identitiies, or lack of them. You know, you are even more stupid than I gave you credit for.

Salim


The rejected ``lover`` keeps coming back for more

Succubus,
I wanted to ignore you, but you insist on continuing your macabre act of playing a victim. You have insulted in very vivid and horrible profanity me and my family, including my mother and my sister-in-law. Even now you resort to using words such as ``jackass.`` I assure you that you do not have to interact with me for any reason. You started this series of insidious remarks against me and I just wanted to give you an ample response. The so-called ``40 thousand`` identities are due to the prevailing atmosphere of biased, one-sided, and definitely Paki-style of censorship found on Chowk, where they muzzle opinion they don`t like and ban interactor with whom they disagree. I would have been content with my own initial nic.

Please get over me. I am not interested in you and do not want to get into another slugfest with the likes of you. Get on with your life, I have.

Thanks,
Salim

Use of abusive language by Pakis - a she-male no doubt

Another example of ``polite`` interaction by Pakis, this time a ``female`` no doubt. Notice the use of expletives in almost every sentence. She can`t put together sixteen words without using fu ck, sh it, or ass:

{``#8 by Mizz_Nadia on August 12, 2005 4:55pm PT
Injuns getting proud of a industry that sucks money outta the public...Thats fucked up....and hilarious...

Wouldnt it b better if they gave half of what they earn to the Indian public and clean up the cow shitted streets ...and put sum clothes on those nasty ass women with sagging bodies....

Better put money towards having the ganges purified what with all that shit floatin in it....grosss.... :}

And these are the literate she-males of Pakiland, the Land of the Pure. Notice the free use of ``invented`` verbs and adjectives.

Salim



August 13, 2005

Circumventing the malicious deletion of my viewpoint by Khamkhwa and Chowk Staff

Now that Khamkhwa and his Chowk Staff cohorts are deleting my responses, I am compelled to repeat them here. Please read and accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this one-sided, biased, and repressive Paki website.
Mr. Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Hoshiyaar Hole, You Jhoot Bole.
******************************************************
Is this what you meant by polite interaction when you were pontificating about Salim and Mr. Tahmed in this forum earlier?

{``#5 by JagdeeshGodbole on August 13, 2005 6:29am PT
delhiwala why dont you take your history and shove it up your ass``}

You Jagdeesh are a hypocrite.

Salim
****************************************
Hypocrisy

Is this what Succubus, Atif, Scout, Saminasha, and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidble mean by polite interactin and refrain from abusive language?


#2 by atif2 on August 12, 2005 5:30am PT
arjun madarchod idiotic smelly injun - instead of gloating over these human rights abuses, you should be condemning them.
***********************************************
Advice to Ms Succubus
In the case of Ms. Succubus, I think it is simply a case of ``sour grapes.``

Succu,
I am happily married. Please find someone else and hopefully you will be able to get rid of some of your own personal rage. Who knows you could possibly channel all this negative energy into something, let`s say, productive and fun.
Sounds like a case of ``sour`` grapes to me.

Response to Nonsense from Succubus

Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that, just like your sense of humor, your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.

By the way, you said ``As you have done earlier, please do not take this personal.`` The correct word that you should have used here is ``personally`` and not ``personal.``
Please don`t take this advice personally. In my desire to enlighten Pakis and encourage them to use proper English, I invariably end up rectifying their use of this foreign language. I can`t believe that the standards of academic attainment have sunk to this low level in the UAE. And they are about to give you a degree?

Salim
******************************************

Thank you, my friends

Mr. Tahmed, Monty, and Jang,

Thank you for your kind words and attempt to respond to Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Atif, KK, and the other members of the Scout/Saminasha gang. While they constantly whine about my verbal ``abuse`` hurled at them, they conveniently neglect to confess to their own substantially vulgar attacks on me, my wife, my sister-in-law, and my mother. Just recently, Saminasha posted, right here on FP, a remark referring to my wife as a ``Turkish whore.``
Yes, I do respond and as I have often said with ten times the effect. I can`t help it, that`s the American way and I AM an American. Usually, I am quite a gentle, polite, and compassionate interactor, whose only desire is to laugh and bring laughter to others. But once this gang of Scout, Saminasha and their cohorts resorts to lewd and vulgar assaults on me and my family, I am entitled to teach them a lesson in ``French`` - and that is exactly what they receive.
I apologize to Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Dilliwalla, Mr. Jang, Ms Zeena, Mr. Montag, and other fine friends for any inconvenience that may have come their way because of their friendship with me.

Salim
******************************************************
Response to Nonsense from Succubus

#165, Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that just like your sense of humor your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.

Salim :)

#17 kaalchakra

As usual, our so-called ``dalit`` friend is spreading cut-and-paste misinformation. Yoginder Sikand is referring to Jammu and Udhampur in his article, not to Kashmir valley. THese regions are south of the kashmir valley and culturally quite different (dogri and punjabi speaking, for example).

Jammu and Udhampur are culturally closer to Punjab on one side and Kangra valley on the other side. The region is about 60% hindu with all the usual groups present.

When it comes to ethnic cleansing and murder, no distinction will be made between one kind of idol worshopper or the other. Whether buddhist, dalit, jain or whatever, it makes no difference. We saw this in Pakistan in 40s and 50s (and more recently in Bangladesh). No amount of spurious propaganda from people like so-called ``dalit`` can disguise that.

Salim , I totally agree with everything you say except your comments on tahmed32 (``I know Mr. Tahmed and believe me, Mr. Temporal, Sir, you are no Mr. Tahmed. He is brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical, and most of all not at all a hypocrite like you.``.....Huh ??!!!)....

......JEEZ man...just because tahmed32 is nice to you doesn`t make him `brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical` etc. etc. .....tahmed32 is just an old fool to be honest.

Aslam #264, {``Salim...you have the support of all Indians on chowk (except Mr. Jagadeesh Paaandu Ghatiwala) ...``}

Thank you very much for your kind support. You remind me of a good friend from Bangalore. :)

Pakis, unfortunately, are very adept at alienating their own. First the Hindus and Sikhs who lived in Pakiland, then the Bengalis, then the Ahmedis, then Mohajirs, then Ismailis, other Shias, and now Baluchis, Kashmiris, Saraikis, and even Gilgitis and Baltistanis. Alienating one more of their own is not a major concern for them. I, however, have become much more appreciative of the freedoms that India offers. Much more than the economic progress, even more than the political maturity, it is the freedom of expression and an atmosphere of tolerance that distinguish India from Pakiland. Mr. Temporal and his gang of corrupt pseudo-liberal Paki oligarchs have caused me to be clearly in the Indian camp.

Mr. Temporal talks about ``scaring Chowkies away.`` If you remember, he tormented Mr. Ozer Khalid so much, that this young writer no longer visits Chowk. Ozer, like me was part Turkish, and perhaps that is the problem. Temporal and his supporters may be just racists and bigots - after all they hail from the Land of the Pure. They can`t believe that people do marry across racial divides. Well, my friend, we need to remind this hallucinating hooligan that being a Paki is now the lowest level of human existence on the planet. These Pakis are reviled for their corruption, their tyranny, their terroristic activities, and their miserably failed state. Being a Paki is nothing to crow about. If I were to invent a religious, ethnic, and national indentity for myself, I certainly would not select being a Moose Limb Paki. I speak the truth and these bigots can`t stand it.

I just hope that Mushy keeps whipping his danda on these errant Pakis and keeps them in line. They want to restore the ``good old`` days of Paki ``democracy`` when the privileged few looted the country and moved their ill-gotten gains to overseas accounts and holdings. That is why I oppose them and that is why they have silenced me.

Thanks again,
Salim

Dalit is a big ullu-da-patha,
I am not a Pandit but I can say for fact that there never have been any Dalit population of any significance in Kashmir ever, Jammu yes, Kashmir never.

How can he say such words? This guy is someone`s paid employee to spread misinformation.

Reality is that in India, it is a privilege to be considered a SC-ST. All my friends who got less than 400 in PMT and AIIMS are doctors these days. Thank God Army does not have reservation or else.....

A SC-ST Section Officer can become a JT Secretary others will stay where they are.
They are pushed to become IAS(special promotions)

Re: # 24

........... what is this post doing on this board - i thought this was about pandits in kashmir ........... not that i care about pandits or dalits or anyone else from the wrong side of the border ......... but since we are on the subject, what the heck is a pandit and what were they doing in kashmir in the first place ? ....... how did they get there and when did they leave and why can`t they go back ? ....... i thought only kashmiris lived in kashmir - one big happy family in that secular heaven known as hindustan ........

............ maybe the pandits should move to islamabad which has been run over by half a million afghani dalits - we will make room somehow ...

Re: # 26 Afghani dalits... Good one!

hamidm#26

Since you are in such generous mood, maybe you can extend this invitation also to pindi-nay sikh bhapas who are still pining for their old city. [I actually remember hearing an old woman saying on a full-moon night: `ay chan pindi-nay chan varga nain`] :-)

Re: # 25

``Thank God Army does not have reservation or else..... ``

isn`t there an ex-serviceman quota?

Mr. Raina,

We hindus will never let muslims and paksitanis win in Kashmir. It will never happen. They may have driven you out, but they will never be able to get out of India. As a proud hindu, I promise you that we will not let you down. If necessary, we will use nuclear weapons to keep it with us.

What you should do is to lobby Indian government to relax Article 356 so that hindus can migrate their en masse and change demographics there. If the pandits go back, you will remain a minority and can be thrown out again. But if millions of hindus from UP, Bihar, Rajasthan etc accompany you and take the place over, then your future is secure. That is what we need to do in the Kashmir valley.

#30 by ranjit

Hehehehe…look at this holly Polly Hindu talking…..hehehehe…

Noone kicked Pundit out …heheheh….they left themselves…..heheheheh…with all their money and sold property at the right price…..heheheheh…consider this….hindu…heheheheh
How many Sikhs left when hindu killed them in Delhi….heheheheh
How many Muslims left when hindu killed them in Gujarat, Mumbai, or at many other places….hehehehehe
How many Dalit left their homes ….heheheh
ALL OVER INDIA
Every hour two Dalits are assaulted
Every day three Dalit women are raped
Every day two Dalits are murdered and two Dalit houses are burned in India

Pundit left after about ten of them were killed over a three years period….hehehehe…

Hehehehe… holly Polly hindu prove me wrong …there were no communal riots in Kashmir…hehehee…handful of pundit, way less than Sikhs, Muslims and Dalits, died….hehehehe….. Pundit left….heheheheh…

They SOLD their homes and PROPERTY....hehehehe....
what will they come back to…..hehehehehehe….

#56, Ranjit {``Jinnah has single handedly ruined muslims in the subcontinent and reduced them to a non-entity. His policy ended up dividing muslims into three irrelevant, disjoint groups and pushed them to the fringe corners of the subcontinent. Hindus ended up getting the lion share of the real-estate.``}

Ranjit bhai,
It is not a matter of Muslims or Hindus getting the upper hand. Just like there is no such thing as monolithic Hinduism, believe me there is no such thing as united Islam, the Ummah, or Muslim rule. You ask ``Can you imagine if India had remained united in 1947?`` Yes, many of us can. As one can easily determine after watching Mangal Pandey, that is exactly what the British feared and what they prevented from happening.

Jinnah, while himself an honest, intelligent, and able man, was blinded by his own vanity, his jealousy of Gandhiji, and the influence of powerful economic interests of the Moose Limb business community of Bombay. They wanted to create a ``homeland`` for Moose Limbs, where they would hold sway economically without competition from the baniyas. ``Islam khatray meN hai`` is a convenient slogan to rally the Moose Limb sheep into any course, even a suicidal one.

You are correct in pointing out the right course for India. The breakup of Pakistan in 1971 was a brilliant move on the part of Indira Gandhi and her government. This permanently shattered the concept of ``Pakistan`` and set the stage for further dismemberment. The sensible course for India now would be to deny Pakistan the ``Moose Limb`` card. India, as the second largest Moose Limb country in the world, should genuinely take the lead in promoting moderate and progressive Islam. There are similar minded countries such as Turkey, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Indonesia, Central Asian ``Stans,`` and Malaysia that will join India in countering the jihadi alliance of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Tally Ban. Once India`s position as the logical choice of a model for Moose Limb progress is established, many benefits will ensue. Kashmiris will proudly proclaim their Indian citizenship, Indian Moose Limbs will count their blessings, moderate Paki Moose Limbs will see the beacon as a welcome alternative to their own wretched society, and the Moose Limb world will stop paying attention to Pakis` religious blackmail.

The reintegration of Pakiland into an undivided India is what will undo the evils of this partition. I know it is a difficult thing to accept for both, but it is the sensible path.

Peace