The Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Destiny?

Re: # 25

Salim,

ALLAH-DAMN-IT!!!

{{I am a pragmatist. I say ``if you can`t beat `em then join `em.`` If the best that we Pakis can do is to take another 58 years to approximate Indian democracy, then why not just become a part of it, but seriously. We will, of course, have to abandon the Islamic rule, Muslim Ummah, Shariah Code, Hudood stuff, and other such nonsense. Religion will have to be a deeply personal and individual matter, much as it is in the West today.

Admitting to failure is the first sign of success. :)}}

There you go AGAIN...gasp!...tauba tauba!

Yo! What KIND of bs is THIS?
Are you trying to make an estranged wife pay alimony to a prepuceless-brainless dysfunctional husband?....Is that some wiiiieeeerd kind of Paki-Islamic jurisprudence?!

Let Mr Pakistan marry goddamned wahabi dukkar-i Ms Saudi Arabia....
Now THAT would be POETIC justice...
jeeze...about a zillion beautiful Paki houris & a million pretty-punjabi/pathan-baloch boys have been gifted by Mr Pakistan to maintain his megalomaniacal lifestyle...

Nice try! baccha...we brahmins aint as DUMB as we look!

Re: # 24

Salim,
Just WHY is a supposedly PAKI hybrid (or are you Indian) confused-identity like you advocating REUNIFICATION?!!!

Its like asking a goddamned divorced couple (with irreconcilable issues) to kiss & REMARRY!
Gimme a frikkin` break! Are you SERIOUS?!!!

Shuuuuute, every single Indian I know (including & ESP Indian BOMBAY katlus) SHUDDER at that thought! Maybe these goddamned Northies have wet sentimental dreams...

Heck...I dont mind giving a Paki woman a friendly peck on the cheek (if she could lift up that... er...burkha ghungaat)...but to have lascivious thoughts!! tauba tauba!! dunno why?...but I keep picturing 72 nagging virginial SISTERS; if I do that...& it kinda KILLS it for most smart Indians..

We dont want you back...
PUHLEEAASE keep Azaaaaad Kashmir too!

These NORTHIE ``old buzzards`` born before Partition worry me...I swear to ALLAH...if these Northie duffers EVER want reunification...India will be partitioned again...

From Bombay DOWN...all of S.India will declare independance...f*ck Kashmir even...we will invade Sri Lanka & annex it...just for spite

Re: # 21

Ylh, (re about zillion/trillion posts about Jinnah)

Yaar...ENOUGH tareef aboout Jinnah; butthead...
Jinnah this...Jinnah THAT...Jinnah-ne-tera-dimaag-kharaab-kar-diya...

However, (at this juncture)...I must applaud your unflagging optimism about trying to convert a bunch of Indian 20-30yr olds; about Jinnah!:)...It only gives those DUFFERS more ammunition to pull your frikkin` chain; yaaar!

GROW UP!!!; YOU-CHUT!!!

Let me hit THOU with a brick of REALITY:(Sheesh...what kinnnnddd of education did they give you in Pak....I mean... the ``gulf`` of idiocy?)

Jinnah is AS MUCH an anachronism in Pakistan; as Gandhi is in India...What DELUSION are you living under?!...heck! if you cant convert even supposedly educated dopes like haroon & that snot-nosed kid, Don Corleone...you think your hard working, honest , long suffering , docile awaaaam (which has bought into each DICTATOR`S BS) cares? anymore?

Yo! You are/were right...Gandhi was a freak! An INCREDIBLE freak...none-the-less. I mean...that JUGHEAD could easily pass of as frikkin` Yoda`s older (& uglier) brother...his was the face that lauched a 1000 impotencies (ie..the women who slept naked next to him...whoopie was the LAST thing on their minds!)...Kasturba had no choice BUT to sucuumb to his lust..cos..y`know marriage is SLAVERY (ask your wife; if you dont believe me)...but ``Ba`` must SURELY have lit candles in church when his highness proclaimed celibacy as a way to true freedom (what a frikkin` bozo!)...

Thank-you ALLAH!!...for making Gandhi an anarchronism in goddless, laxmi-worshipping India...Otherwise a billion people would become vegeterians, eat mooli, drink goats milk (booze

---

gasp!! tauba tauba!), have absolutely NO fashon sense, & worship ``POVERTY`` as a frikkin human VIRTUE!!

BUTT

---

BUTT--

Be that as it may; from what you have told me/us about Jinnah...
HYPOTHETICALLY...if Jinnah came back to life again; & COMPARED India`s & Pakistan`s political history...
I GUARANTEE YOU....
He would say:
``booooooohooooo

---

DONT sell my house in my beloved Malabar Hill, in beloved Bombay!...Nusli....Nusli...remember me?!..your grandpa...I wanna go baaaaaack to that sh*tpot. India!..at least its an imperfect, hypocritically secular, democratic nation....
these DUKKAR leaders of Pakistan have made my dream into an irreversible giant sh*t-sandwich & there`s NO GOING BACK!!!...

Manto, I CHALLENGE you to argue against that....

BUTT ...BUTT...
before you start masterbating...1 CAVEAT!!!
WE DONT WANT YOU SUCKERS BACK!!!!

Haroon,
I think the following message is also relevant to your forum:

In Yasser`s article, he said:

{``We have so many things that are wrong, the blame for which squarely lies on our shoulders. Not the least of that is how we have allowed the once-beautiful and cosmopolitan city of Karachi slip in a hellhole of chaos, poverty, mismanagement and ethnic conflict. Yet it was in this torn up and shattered Karachi, much more representative of the true state of affairs in Pakistan than Lahore``}

Yasser,
I know that you or your views were not responsible for the demise of my old hometown. I loved Karachi, the city of Jinnah, the mecca of Manto`s aspirations, and the home of tolerance and progress. At one time Karachi meant more to me than Jaipur, Tehran, or Istanbul. Karachi did not witness the horrific bloodbath experienced by Delhi, Lahore, Amritsar, Calcutta, and other sad victims of partition. It welcomed refugees from Delhi, Ahmedabad, Bombay, Lucknow, Agra, Hyderabad, and other cherished cities in India. The Mohajirs repaid their gratitude by embellishing Karachi with new homes, good schools, splendid colonies, thriving businesses, and a culture of tolerance, education, progress, and patriotism. They provided millions of jobs for Pathans, Baluchis, Makranis, Sindhis, Bengalis, and yes, even Punjabis.

Within Pakistan, Mohajirs were told that they were not a ``martial`` race, so most of them never dreamed of becoming soldiers and pilots - only a few joined the navy, probably because it was based in Karachi. They witnessed Jinnah`s vision usurped by Ghulam Mohammad. They were bystanders, and victims, in the tussle between Punjabis and Bengalis. They were repressed by the first dictator, President Field Marshal Mohammed Ayub Khan, who moved the capital from Karachi to Islamabad, thus diminishing the stature of Karachi and its people. His son had Mohajirs killed and dumped into the Arabian Sea.

The demise of `71, in which they had no part, hurt them emotionally and put doubts in their minds about the sanctity of their Paki citizenship. The 93,000 defeated, mainly Punjabi and Pathan, soldiers were repatriated, but the hundreds of thousands of Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakis, mainly Biharis, were left to suffer in squalid camps in Bangladesh. Successive Paki governments refused to take them, out of fear that they would add to the already high numbers of Mohajirs in Sindh. And some people complain about Israel`s paranoia about the Palestinian population in pre-1967 Israel!

Mohajirs suffered through the years of Bhutto and Sindhi nationalism. They put up with job discrimination, compulsory Sindhi in schools, and the unfair quota system. Many left Karachi for greener pastures in the West and the Gulf. Then came 1986 and the Sohrab Goth incident. Zia had meddled in Afghanistan, hosted millions of Afghan refugees, and created a Kalashnikov and drug culture that had started to ruin Karachi. In 1986, thousands of Mohajirs, including young boys, were burned alive and killed by Pathans. Nothing was done by the military authorities. Major murders took place in Pakistan`s largest city and no one intervened. As a result, this ``non-martial`` race became determined to become its own protector. The MQM (Mohajir Qaumi Movement) was formed primarily as a reaction to the horrible Sohrab Goth massacre.

In the ``democratic`` years of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, the so-called pseudo-liberal and progressive Paki oligarchs killed more Mohajirs and destroyed more of Karachi than all the military dictators before and since - combined. Jealous of Karachi`s success as hub for business and education, they created an environment of violence, kidnappings, ransom, corruption, ethnic bias, and ``encounter`` killings, that commerce and industry departed for Lahore, as intended. With Mushy in charge, I am hearing from relatives that things are a whole lot better, relatively speaking. The major concern is a ``return to democracy`` and an environment of official looting, condoned corruption, and more ethnic violence. Please let Karachi and Karachiites live in peace or let it go free.

Thanks,

I think the solution to Pakistan`s problems are 1. democracy X10^infinite and 2. Accountability across the board.

1 and 2 must take place concurrently. That will propell Pakistan towards prosperity, empowerment of the masses, and social stability. This shall subsequently result in the proper ingridients being placed internally for the coming of a Pakistani golden age, or in other words, Pakistan becoming into a regional superpower in Central Asia, Middle East, and South Asia. Of course alot of external factors are involved, but the more democracy + absolute accountability paradigm seems to be the best idea I can cook up.

I think that the following message is relevant to the topic of this board:

#120, {``#120 by kaalchakra on August 15, 2005 6:14pm PT
Also, salim, supporting the reunification makes it appear that one has lost complete confidence in the nation-building abilities of Pakistani liberals. Or that Indians know & understand the right path for Pakistani nation better than Pakistanis themselves do...:( ``}

Kaalchakra Sahib,
You are right in the first sentence of your response. Many Pakis, especially from the other three provinces, have lost confidence in the ability to transition to a fair, just, safe, honest, and meaningful environment in Pakistan. Let me give you an example - the Paki cricket team (or for that matter, the Indian cricket team.) Under Australian leadership and coaching, the Indian cricket team whipped the Pakis in Pakistan - no doubt about it. Of course, Pakistan was playing under Paki leadership (before the great Miandad had proposed to Dawood, but that is another story. :) ). Once Pakistan got its own Gora leader and coach, things turned out quite differently when India and Pakistan played in India recently. There is nothing wrong with Pakis or their ability to excel - they have just had terrible leaders, even some they tried to adore.

Now, let`s talk about nation-building. India has experience in developing a mature, relatively fair, and proven democratic society. This has not come easily or cheaply. There are almost 60 years of blunders, sacrifices, feats, and miracles involved in that success story. If Pakis can demonstrate an equal commitment to real democracy, starting today, then in August, 2063 (give or take a couple of years), Pakistan can attain India`s political status. In fact, because of strong, prevailing vested interests in today`s Pakistan, it will take Pakistan longer to get there politically. There were far fewer such interests in 1947.

I am a pragmatist. I say ``if you can`t beat `em then join `em.`` If the best that we Pakis can do is to take another 58 years to approximate Indian democracy, then why not just become a part of it, but seriously. We will, of course, have to abandon the Islamic rule, Muslim Ummah, Shariah Code, Hudood stuff, and other such nonsense. Religion will have to be a deeply personal and individual matter, much as it is in the West today.

Admitting to failure is the first sign of success. :)

Godot #23, {``That’s exactly where the battle for Pakistan`s soul is drawn: Khuda Hafiz vs. Allah Hafiz. For me, Khuda Hafiz rules. I will never, ever say Allah Hafiz. Tells you to which camp I belong.``}

Godot, mere dost, you said it. This was such a sinister attempt during Zamana-e-Zia to rob us of our real Pakistani heritage. To the Saudi Wahabbis, only an Arabic name for Allah is allowed, we can`t use Khuda because that is Farsi, a pagan language. So we have Allah Hafiz, Arabian Gulf (never mind that there is already a Goddamned ``Arabian Sea.``)

I am so glad to be with you on many issues. I have always admired your ability to question stupidity even when it is mixed with holy water. :)

Re: # 22

Salim

That’s exactly where the battle for Pakistan`s soul is drawn: Khuda Hafiz vs. Allah Hafiz.

For me, Khuda Hafiz rules. I will never, ever say Allah Hafiz. Tells you to which camp I belong.

Raw_Dust #20, {``unlike the despicable flag with segregationist white band for religous minorities. Pakistani anthem is in a class of its own.! ``}

Raw, Yaar, I happen to like the national anthem. It is very well written and descriptive about the meaning of the real Pakistan - Mr. Jullundri did a wonderful job in writing this beautiful anthem. The anthem I wrote was a sarcastic response to Mr. Romair who said that he did not understand our anthem.

BTW, did Zia ever attempt to replace ``Saaye-e-Khudai Zuljilal`` with ``Saaye-e-ALLAH Zuljilal?`` I get so upset when people say ``Allah Hafiz`` instead of the sweet old ``Khuda Hafiz.`` I see this as another insidious Wahabbi conspiracy to infiltrate our language, our culture, and our religion. Nothing wrong with the word ``Allah,`` but ``Khuda`` means the same thing to me.

As for the Pakistani flag, Manto and you are right, the white strip was added for ``minorities`` to please Lord Mountbatten, who also suggested tilting the Crescent to make it less ``meancing.`` Just notice the Turkish Crescent - to the good Lord, it was ``menacing.`` HA HA.

Dear Raw dust...

Pakistan`s original national anthem was an extremely secular one written by the famous Hindu Poet Jagganath Azad and commissioned by Jinnah himself. Jallundhuri`s anthem pales in comparison to that one. After Jinnah`s passing, the government sanctioned Jallundhari to write the current anthem- which is good but not great.

(Tribute: Jagan Nath Azad – some reminiscences

By Balraj Puri
I first met Professor Jagan Nath Azad around fifty years ago in the office of Urdu Journal Ajkal, published by Publications Division of the Government of India where he was then working as assistant editor. Our friendship continued to grow almost in the same proportion ever since as his fame. It was unlike the usual experience where such a relationship is inversely proportional to each other and is an eloquent testimony to the fact that he was a rare combination of greatness and modesty. I may not be an exception in enjoying his affection,. For apart from creating a rich literary capital, he had made a rich, what may be called, social capital spread all over the Urdu world.

Once I was planning a world Urdu conference, after consultation with Muhajir leaders of Pakistan to focus attention mainly on the sociological problems of Urdu speaking community of the Subcontinent. I turned to Azad for a list of prominent Urdu-speaking personalities around the world. In almost no time he prepared a list and gave it to me. That the proposed conference could not be held is a different matter.The point I am emphasizing is that once Azad made a friendship, he maintained it.

In my case, the additional factor was commonality of our interest; which included love for Urdu language, Indo-Pak relations, Iqbaliat and Islamiat. I am the founder president of the Anjumman-i-Tarraqi Urdu (Hind) Jammu branch of which he became the national president. At one stage, I wished to retire from the responsibility. But so forceful was his insistence on my continuing the responsibility that I had to submit to his wishes.

Once he gave a lecture on Iqbal over thirty years ago in the University of Jammu. I raised a few points. After the lecture he pursued a discussion on them. We walked the entire distance to my home which is at the other end of the town and continued our discussion till almost midnight. Even though he had been acknowledged as the greatest scholar on Iqbal, he would not miss an opportunity to get an extra knowledge from however humble a source it might be.

We often debated the possible impact on Pakistan’s make-up and its relations with India if he had remained a citizen of Pakistan and enjoyed a respectable status there as he was enjoying now. He would often become nostalgic about the possibility. The very fact that it was he who was asked to write the first national anthem of Pakistan within less than a week before its formal birth indicates the potentiality of its happening.

It is interesting to recall that writing the national anthem of Pakistan was made at the behst of its founder Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. The request was in conformity with his famous speech of 11th August 1947 in which he had said, ``Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.`` His request to a secular Hindu poet filled into his vision of Pakistan. Alas he did not live long to put that vision into practice. The National Anthem of Pakistan was not only broadcast on its independence but continued to be used for over a year. I can quote only a few lines of that anthem at the moment which are as follows:
Aey sarzameen-i-pak

Zarrey terey hein aaj sitaron sey tabnak
Roshan heh kehkashan sey kahin aaj teri khak``

(Oh land of Pakistan each particle of yours is being illuminated by stars. Even your dust has been brightened like a rainbow.)

After the death of Jinnah another anthem composed by Hafiz Jallandhari was finally adopted by Pakistan.

Azad did stay in Pakistan for almost a month after it came into being. But the situation continued to deteriorate in Lahore where he was advised by his friends to leave. His last wish, however, was to pen a ``song of peace`` that would be common to both countries and sung by millions of Indians and Pakistanis. It is my wish that one day the people of the two countries will sing the songs of love instead of hatred.

He must have been the most frequent visitor of Pakistan from India and its best peace ambassador. He was equally respected in both countries. It is difficult to measure the extent of loss that his death has caused Indo-Pak peace, secularism, human values and Urdu literature (of which he was the most renowned scholar.).





As for the ``segregationist`` flag... the successor authorities were to take the flags of the two major parties the Congress and the League. The white band was actually added to make the flag inclusive. The objection I think should be to the proportion not the different band for even the Indian flag has three different bands...

Salim:
Pakistani taraana is intense !.. it has structure, flow and lyricism plus it is no tuk bandi. though in persian :)
Jalindhari sahib really put alotta effort into it.

also, notice, how mention of god is only remotely touched in the very last verse. no talk of Islam or call for Muslim superiority whatsoever.

unlike the despicable flag with segregationist white band for religous minorities. Pakistani anthem is in a class of its own.!

Re: # 17

Why not add:

``Fouj, Mullah, Inshaalah
Painda, Tabinda Baad``

to the national anthem instead of ``Qoum, mulk, saltanat``?

You have to more than just copy the flag. You have to instill faith, unity, and discipline. Most of all you need to practice tolerance and respect for viewpoints. Please do not continue to dishonor the real Star and Crescent.
Thanks,

I don`t know about a constitution, but I have prepared a new national anthem (because very few Pakis understood the old one):


Hum Punjabi, hum heN Sindhi, hum Balochi, hum Pathan
Dai dai dai dai dagh dagh dan
Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan

Kangha tera maang hamari, juti teri meri shaan
Dai dai dai dai dagh dagh dan
Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan

The second verse? Same as the first.


Now, one of you other guys has to write the constitution. I am tired of doing all the work by myself. :)

Black Eve, :)

{``Musharraf is lottery, just a lucky draw, you could have had Zia Ul Haq! And what happens when Musarraf leaves?``}

In that case, Pakistan hit the jackpot in `99. :)
In either case, whether dictatorship or ``democracy,`` we have no orderly transfer of power. No ruling party has relinquished power after losing an election (Maybe ML may have in the 50s when they lost to Awami League!).

It`s better for Mushy to designate another Dehliwalla as his successor. Apparently, people from Dehli are better at ruling than people from Lahore or. Must be an experience or a capital issue. :)

Re: # 12

Actually they have a valid point. Musharraf is lottery, just a lucky draw, you could have had Zia Ul Haq! And what happens when Musarraf leaves?