The Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Destiny?

Nice try Mr. Shaikh..simple and shallow! hope you do better next time.

Mr. Shaikh, {`` The Kashmir issue, the perceived abuse of Indian Muslims in India, and the descration of Islamic holy sites are three issues of primary importance to
most Pakistanis. The mismangement of Hindu holy sites in Pakistan and support for plebliscite in Kashmir are two issues, which can rile up any Indian.``}

You have articulated a very good case for thinking outside the box. The old Hindu/Muslim, Sharia Waria, and jihad/shihad stuff is not going anywhere. It is not a matter of Muslims or Hindus getting the upper hand. Just like there is no such thing as monolithic Hinduism, believe me there is no such thing as united Islam, the Ummah, or Muslim rule. In another forum, Mr. Ranjit has asked ``Can you imagine if India had remained united in 1947?`` Yes, many of us can. As one can easily determine after watching Mangal Pandey, that is exactly what the British feared and what they prevented from happening.

Jinnah, while himself an honest, intelligent, and able man, was blinded by his own vanity, his jealousy of Gandhiji, and the influence of powerful economic interests of the Moose Limb business community of Bombay. They wanted to create a ``homeland`` for Moose Limbs, where they would hold sway economically without competition from the baniyas. ``Islam khatray meN hai`` is a convenient slogan to rally the Moose Limb sheep into any course, even a suicidal one.

You are correct in pointing out that we need to rethink about what is important. The breakup of Pakistan in 1971 was a brilliant move on the part of Indira Gandhi and her government. This permanently shattered the concept of ``Pakistan`` and set the stage for further dismemberment. The sensible course for India now would be to deny Pakistan the ``Moose Limb`` card. India, as the second largest Moose Limb country in the world, should genuinely take the lead in promoting moderate and progressive Islam. There are similar minded countries such as Turkey, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Indonesia, Central Asian ``Stans,`` and Malaysia that will join India in countering the jihadi alliance of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Tally Ban. Once India`s position as the logical choice of a model for Moose Limb progress is established, many benefits will ensue. Kashmiris will proudly proclaim their Indian citizenship, Indian Moose Limbs will count their blessings, moderate Paki Moose Limbs will see the beacon as a welcome alternative to their own wretched society, and the Moose Limb world will stop paying attention to Pakis` religious blackmail.

The reintegration of Pakiland into an undivided India is what will undo the evils of this partition. I know it is a difficult thing to accept for both, but it is the sensible path.

Peace

Congratulations, Haroon, for making it to the FP. Look forward to seeing many more articles from you.

I wonder whether this pontificatory school essay should be up on this page!!!

The solution is simple:

Restore the 1973 consensus constitution in its entirety- let the democracy work - the solution to bad democracy is more democracy.

``India and Pakistan are two enstranged twins whose history now may have become hate-ridden because of the occupational policies of the former...``

This guy can`t be serious!

Until there is stark disparity between economies of the two nations I can’t see how these countries will reconcile each other. If West Germany hadn’t been overwhelmingly well off in contrast to East Germany, I don’t think East Germany would have been very keen to join West Germany.

#7, Black Wind {``Until there is stark disparity between economies of the two nations I can’t see how these countries will reconcile each other``}

Have patience, we are getting there. :)

``India and Pakistan are two enstranged twins whose history now may have become hate-ridden because of the occupational policies of the former...``

Cut a body into two pieces and that creates bleeding, festering parts maybe but certainly not twins...

#9, nefertiti, {``Cut a body into two pieces and that creates bleeding, festering parts maybe but certainly not twins...``}

Very well stated. All this talk about two and twins and your nic got me thinking ... :)

Re: # 8 Salim Saahib,

{``Have patience, we are getting there. :)``}

You are forgetting the intensity of competitiveness between the two nations. In sixties, under Ayub Khan Pakistan was running away with 6+ GDP growth while India struggling at 3 - 3.5 . And Pakistan is not doing badly under Musharraf.

Black Breeze #11, {``And Pakistan is not doing badly under Musharraf``}

Mere dost, that is exactly what I keep telling these ``pseudo-liberal and progressive`` Pakis, who want to bring back BB and Nawaz, that Mushy is doing a pretty good job.
Thank you for speaking the truth. :)

re: Pak`s destiny?
I do not have to wade thr` the long, complicated sentences and wish list to know Pak`s destiny. It is well known to impartial observers. If Pak does not change its course, keeps up its confrontation with India, continues to invest heavily in military hardware and defense equipments, and does not address basic issues of illiteracy, corruption, Pak will meet the same fate as the erstwhile military dictatorial state of Prussia. In other words, it will have a rollercoaster ride into the oblivion, out of geography books and into history.
Sridhar

As we struggle with our difficult chores, let us think of others who had to struggle with theirs and could only say ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``

1. Gen Arora, accepting the surrender of 93,000 enemy troops in East Pakiland - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
2. US Consul, looking at the long line of visa applicants - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
3. Bangaldeshi ambassador, looking at the long line of work permit applicants - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
4. Illegal Mexican immigrant, waiting in line to be deported - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
5. Kaura Singh RabRiwalla, distributing free recycled Indian condoms in Lahore - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
6. Confused passenger, arriving at LaGuardia Airport and seeing the long line of taxis - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
7. New Scotland Yard, looking at suicide bombing suspects at Elephant & Caste station - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
8. Besieged Al-Kayda recruiter at Paki University campus - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
9. Gen Mushy looking at the list of his own assassination suspects - ``TOO MANY PAKIS.``
10. St. Peter, at the Pearly Gates, welcoming new arrivals to heaven - ``WHERE ARE THE PAKIS?``

This should now balance my ``TOO MANY INDIANS`` list. :)

Re: # 12

Actually they have a valid point. Musharraf is lottery, just a lucky draw, you could have had Zia Ul Haq! And what happens when Musarraf leaves?

Black Eve, :)

{``Musharraf is lottery, just a lucky draw, you could have had Zia Ul Haq! And what happens when Musarraf leaves?``}

In that case, Pakistan hit the jackpot in `99. :)
In either case, whether dictatorship or ``democracy,`` we have no orderly transfer of power. No ruling party has relinquished power after losing an election (Maybe ML may have in the 50s when they lost to Awami League!).

It`s better for Mushy to designate another Dehliwalla as his successor. Apparently, people from Dehli are better at ruling than people from Lahore or. Must be an experience or a capital issue. :)

I don`t know about a constitution, but I have prepared a new national anthem (because very few Pakis understood the old one):


Hum Punjabi, hum heN Sindhi, hum Balochi, hum Pathan
Dai dai dai dai dagh dagh dan
Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan

Kangha tera maang hamari, juti teri meri shaan
Dai dai dai dai dagh dagh dan
Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan

The second verse? Same as the first.


Now, one of you other guys has to write the constitution. I am tired of doing all the work by myself. :)

You have to more than just copy the flag. You have to instill faith, unity, and discipline. Most of all you need to practice tolerance and respect for viewpoints. Please do not continue to dishonor the real Star and Crescent.
Thanks,

Re: # 17

Why not add:

``Fouj, Mullah, Inshaalah
Painda, Tabinda Baad``

to the national anthem instead of ``Qoum, mulk, saltanat``?

Salim:
Pakistani taraana is intense !.. it has structure, flow and lyricism plus it is no tuk bandi. though in persian :)
Jalindhari sahib really put alotta effort into it.

also, notice, how mention of god is only remotely touched in the very last verse. no talk of Islam or call for Muslim superiority whatsoever.

unlike the despicable flag with segregationist white band for religous minorities. Pakistani anthem is in a class of its own.!

Dear Raw dust...

Pakistan`s original national anthem was an extremely secular one written by the famous Hindu Poet Jagganath Azad and commissioned by Jinnah himself. Jallundhuri`s anthem pales in comparison to that one. After Jinnah`s passing, the government sanctioned Jallundhari to write the current anthem- which is good but not great.

(Tribute: Jagan Nath Azad – some reminiscences

By Balraj Puri
I first met Professor Jagan Nath Azad around fifty years ago in the office of Urdu Journal Ajkal, published by Publications Division of the Government of India where he was then working as assistant editor. Our friendship continued to grow almost in the same proportion ever since as his fame. It was unlike the usual experience where such a relationship is inversely proportional to each other and is an eloquent testimony to the fact that he was a rare combination of greatness and modesty. I may not be an exception in enjoying his affection,. For apart from creating a rich literary capital, he had made a rich, what may be called, social capital spread all over the Urdu world.

Once I was planning a world Urdu conference, after consultation with Muhajir leaders of Pakistan to focus attention mainly on the sociological problems of Urdu speaking community of the Subcontinent. I turned to Azad for a list of prominent Urdu-speaking personalities around the world. In almost no time he prepared a list and gave it to me. That the proposed conference could not be held is a different matter.The point I am emphasizing is that once Azad made a friendship, he maintained it.

In my case, the additional factor was commonality of our interest; which included love for Urdu language, Indo-Pak relations, Iqbaliat and Islamiat. I am the founder president of the Anjumman-i-Tarraqi Urdu (Hind) Jammu branch of which he became the national president. At one stage, I wished to retire from the responsibility. But so forceful was his insistence on my continuing the responsibility that I had to submit to his wishes.

Once he gave a lecture on Iqbal over thirty years ago in the University of Jammu. I raised a few points. After the lecture he pursued a discussion on them. We walked the entire distance to my home which is at the other end of the town and continued our discussion till almost midnight. Even though he had been acknowledged as the greatest scholar on Iqbal, he would not miss an opportunity to get an extra knowledge from however humble a source it might be.

We often debated the possible impact on Pakistan’s make-up and its relations with India if he had remained a citizen of Pakistan and enjoyed a respectable status there as he was enjoying now. He would often become nostalgic about the possibility. The very fact that it was he who was asked to write the first national anthem of Pakistan within less than a week before its formal birth indicates the potentiality of its happening.

It is interesting to recall that writing the national anthem of Pakistan was made at the behst of its founder Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. The request was in conformity with his famous speech of 11th August 1947 in which he had said, ``Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.`` His request to a secular Hindu poet filled into his vision of Pakistan. Alas he did not live long to put that vision into practice. The National Anthem of Pakistan was not only broadcast on its independence but continued to be used for over a year. I can quote only a few lines of that anthem at the moment which are as follows:
Aey sarzameen-i-pak

Zarrey terey hein aaj sitaron sey tabnak
Roshan heh kehkashan sey kahin aaj teri khak``

(Oh land of Pakistan each particle of yours is being illuminated by stars. Even your dust has been brightened like a rainbow.)

After the death of Jinnah another anthem composed by Hafiz Jallandhari was finally adopted by Pakistan.

Azad did stay in Pakistan for almost a month after it came into being. But the situation continued to deteriorate in Lahore where he was advised by his friends to leave. His last wish, however, was to pen a ``song of peace`` that would be common to both countries and sung by millions of Indians and Pakistanis. It is my wish that one day the people of the two countries will sing the songs of love instead of hatred.

He must have been the most frequent visitor of Pakistan from India and its best peace ambassador. He was equally respected in both countries. It is difficult to measure the extent of loss that his death has caused Indo-Pak peace, secularism, human values and Urdu literature (of which he was the most renowned scholar.).





As for the ``segregationist`` flag... the successor authorities were to take the flags of the two major parties the Congress and the League. The white band was actually added to make the flag inclusive. The objection I think should be to the proportion not the different band for even the Indian flag has three different bands...

Raw_Dust #20, {``unlike the despicable flag with segregationist white band for religous minorities. Pakistani anthem is in a class of its own.! ``}

Raw, Yaar, I happen to like the national anthem. It is very well written and descriptive about the meaning of the real Pakistan - Mr. Jullundri did a wonderful job in writing this beautiful anthem. The anthem I wrote was a sarcastic response to Mr. Romair who said that he did not understand our anthem.

BTW, did Zia ever attempt to replace ``Saaye-e-Khudai Zuljilal`` with ``Saaye-e-ALLAH Zuljilal?`` I get so upset when people say ``Allah Hafiz`` instead of the sweet old ``Khuda Hafiz.`` I see this as another insidious Wahabbi conspiracy to infiltrate our language, our culture, and our religion. Nothing wrong with the word ``Allah,`` but ``Khuda`` means the same thing to me.

As for the Pakistani flag, Manto and you are right, the white strip was added for ``minorities`` to please Lord Mountbatten, who also suggested tilting the Crescent to make it less ``meancing.`` Just notice the Turkish Crescent - to the good Lord, it was ``menacing.`` HA HA.

Re: # 22

Salim

That’s exactly where the battle for Pakistan`s soul is drawn: Khuda Hafiz vs. Allah Hafiz.

For me, Khuda Hafiz rules. I will never, ever say Allah Hafiz. Tells you to which camp I belong.

Godot #23, {``That’s exactly where the battle for Pakistan`s soul is drawn: Khuda Hafiz vs. Allah Hafiz. For me, Khuda Hafiz rules. I will never, ever say Allah Hafiz. Tells you to which camp I belong.``}

Godot, mere dost, you said it. This was such a sinister attempt during Zamana-e-Zia to rob us of our real Pakistani heritage. To the Saudi Wahabbis, only an Arabic name for Allah is allowed, we can`t use Khuda because that is Farsi, a pagan language. So we have Allah Hafiz, Arabian Gulf (never mind that there is already a Goddamned ``Arabian Sea.``)

I am so glad to be with you on many issues. I have always admired your ability to question stupidity even when it is mixed with holy water. :)

I think that the following message is relevant to the topic of this board:

#120, {``#120 by kaalchakra on August 15, 2005 6:14pm PT
Also, salim, supporting the reunification makes it appear that one has lost complete confidence in the nation-building abilities of Pakistani liberals. Or that Indians know & understand the right path for Pakistani nation better than Pakistanis themselves do...:( ``}

Kaalchakra Sahib,
You are right in the first sentence of your response. Many Pakis, especially from the other three provinces, have lost confidence in the ability to transition to a fair, just, safe, honest, and meaningful environment in Pakistan. Let me give you an example - the Paki cricket team (or for that matter, the Indian cricket team.) Under Australian leadership and coaching, the Indian cricket team whipped the Pakis in Pakistan - no doubt about it. Of course, Pakistan was playing under Paki leadership (before the great Miandad had proposed to Dawood, but that is another story. :) ). Once Pakistan got its own Gora leader and coach, things turned out quite differently when India and Pakistan played in India recently. There is nothing wrong with Pakis or their ability to excel - they have just had terrible leaders, even some they tried to adore.

Now, let`s talk about nation-building. India has experience in developing a mature, relatively fair, and proven democratic society. This has not come easily or cheaply. There are almost 60 years of blunders, sacrifices, feats, and miracles involved in that success story. If Pakis can demonstrate an equal commitment to real democracy, starting today, then in August, 2063 (give or take a couple of years), Pakistan can attain India`s political status. In fact, because of strong, prevailing vested interests in today`s Pakistan, it will take Pakistan longer to get there politically. There were far fewer such interests in 1947.

I am a pragmatist. I say ``if you can`t beat `em then join `em.`` If the best that we Pakis can do is to take another 58 years to approximate Indian democracy, then why not just become a part of it, but seriously. We will, of course, have to abandon the Islamic rule, Muslim Ummah, Shariah Code, Hudood stuff, and other such nonsense. Religion will have to be a deeply personal and individual matter, much as it is in the West today.

Admitting to failure is the first sign of success. :)

I think the solution to Pakistan`s problems are 1. democracy X10^infinite and 2. Accountability across the board.

1 and 2 must take place concurrently. That will propell Pakistan towards prosperity, empowerment of the masses, and social stability. This shall subsequently result in the proper ingridients being placed internally for the coming of a Pakistani golden age, or in other words, Pakistan becoming into a regional superpower in Central Asia, Middle East, and South Asia. Of course alot of external factors are involved, but the more democracy + absolute accountability paradigm seems to be the best idea I can cook up.

Haroon,
I think the following message is also relevant to your forum:

In Yasser`s article, he said:

{``We have so many things that are wrong, the blame for which squarely lies on our shoulders. Not the least of that is how we have allowed the once-beautiful and cosmopolitan city of Karachi slip in a hellhole of chaos, poverty, mismanagement and ethnic conflict. Yet it was in this torn up and shattered Karachi, much more representative of the true state of affairs in Pakistan than Lahore``}

Yasser,
I know that you or your views were not responsible for the demise of my old hometown. I loved Karachi, the city of Jinnah, the mecca of Manto`s aspirations, and the home of tolerance and progress. At one time Karachi meant more to me than Jaipur, Tehran, or Istanbul. Karachi did not witness the horrific bloodbath experienced by Delhi, Lahore, Amritsar, Calcutta, and other sad victims of partition. It welcomed refugees from Delhi, Ahmedabad, Bombay, Lucknow, Agra, Hyderabad, and other cherished cities in India. The Mohajirs repaid their gratitude by embellishing Karachi with new homes, good schools, splendid colonies, thriving businesses, and a culture of tolerance, education, progress, and patriotism. They provided millions of jobs for Pathans, Baluchis, Makranis, Sindhis, Bengalis, and yes, even Punjabis.

Within Pakistan, Mohajirs were told that they were not a ``martial`` race, so most of them never dreamed of becoming soldiers and pilots - only a few joined the navy, probably because it was based in Karachi. They witnessed Jinnah`s vision usurped by Ghulam Mohammad. They were bystanders, and victims, in the tussle between Punjabis and Bengalis. They were repressed by the first dictator, President Field Marshal Mohammed Ayub Khan, who moved the capital from Karachi to Islamabad, thus diminishing the stature of Karachi and its people. His son had Mohajirs killed and dumped into the Arabian Sea.

The demise of `71, in which they had no part, hurt them emotionally and put doubts in their minds about the sanctity of their Paki citizenship. The 93,000 defeated, mainly Punjabi and Pathan, soldiers were repatriated, but the hundreds of thousands of Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakis, mainly Biharis, were left to suffer in squalid camps in Bangladesh. Successive Paki governments refused to take them, out of fear that they would add to the already high numbers of Mohajirs in Sindh. And some people complain about Israel`s paranoia about the Palestinian population in pre-1967 Israel!

Mohajirs suffered through the years of Bhutto and Sindhi nationalism. They put up with job discrimination, compulsory Sindhi in schools, and the unfair quota system. Many left Karachi for greener pastures in the West and the Gulf. Then came 1986 and the Sohrab Goth incident. Zia had meddled in Afghanistan, hosted millions of Afghan refugees, and created a Kalashnikov and drug culture that had started to ruin Karachi. In 1986, thousands of Mohajirs, including young boys, were burned alive and killed by Pathans. Nothing was done by the military authorities. Major murders took place in Pakistan`s largest city and no one intervened. As a result, this ``non-martial`` race became determined to become its own protector. The MQM (Mohajir Qaumi Movement) was formed primarily as a reaction to the horrible Sohrab Goth massacre.

In the ``democratic`` years of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, the so-called pseudo-liberal and progressive Paki oligarchs killed more Mohajirs and destroyed more of Karachi than all the military dictators before and since - combined. Jealous of Karachi`s success as hub for business and education, they created an environment of violence, kidnappings, ransom, corruption, ethnic bias, and ``encounter`` killings, that commerce and industry departed for Lahore, as intended. With Mushy in charge, I am hearing from relatives that things are a whole lot better, relatively speaking. The major concern is a ``return to democracy`` and an environment of official looting, condoned corruption, and more ethnic violence. Please let Karachi and Karachiites live in peace or let it go free.

Thanks,

Re: # 21

Ylh, (re about zillion/trillion posts about Jinnah)

Yaar...ENOUGH tareef aboout Jinnah; butthead...
Jinnah this...Jinnah THAT...Jinnah-ne-tera-dimaag-kharaab-kar-diya...

However, (at this juncture)...I must applaud your unflagging optimism about trying to convert a bunch of Indian 20-30yr olds; about Jinnah!:)...It only gives those DUFFERS more ammunition to pull your frikkin` chain; yaaar!

GROW UP!!!; YOU-CHUT!!!

Let me hit THOU with a brick of REALITY:(Sheesh...what kinnnnddd of education did they give you in Pak....I mean... the ``gulf`` of idiocy?)

Jinnah is AS MUCH an anachronism in Pakistan; as Gandhi is in India...What DELUSION are you living under?!...heck! if you cant convert even supposedly educated dopes like haroon & that snot-nosed kid, Don Corleone...you think your hard working, honest , long suffering , docile awaaaam (which has bought into each DICTATOR`S BS) cares? anymore?

Yo! You are/were right...Gandhi was a freak! An INCREDIBLE freak...none-the-less. I mean...that JUGHEAD could easily pass of as frikkin` Yoda`s older (& uglier) brother...his was the face that lauched a 1000 impotencies (ie..the women who slept naked next to him...whoopie was the LAST thing on their minds!)...Kasturba had no choice BUT to sucuumb to his lust..cos..y`know marriage is SLAVERY (ask your wife; if you dont believe me)...but ``Ba`` must SURELY have lit candles in church when his highness proclaimed celibacy as a way to true freedom (what a frikkin` bozo!)...

Thank-you ALLAH!!...for making Gandhi an anarchronism in goddless, laxmi-worshipping India...Otherwise a billion people would become vegeterians, eat mooli, drink goats milk (booze

---

gasp!! tauba tauba!), have absolutely NO fashon sense, & worship ``POVERTY`` as a frikkin human VIRTUE!!

BUTT

---

BUTT--

Be that as it may; from what you have told me/us about Jinnah...
HYPOTHETICALLY...if Jinnah came back to life again; & COMPARED India`s & Pakistan`s political history...
I GUARANTEE YOU....
He would say:
``booooooohooooo

---

DONT sell my house in my beloved Malabar Hill, in beloved Bombay!...Nusli....Nusli...remember me?!..your grandpa...I wanna go baaaaaack to that sh*tpot. India!..at least its an imperfect, hypocritically secular, democratic nation....
these DUKKAR leaders of Pakistan have made my dream into an irreversible giant sh*t-sandwich & there`s NO GOING BACK!!!...

Manto, I CHALLENGE you to argue against that....

BUTT ...BUTT...
before you start masterbating...1 CAVEAT!!!
WE DONT WANT YOU SUCKERS BACK!!!!

Re: # 24

Salim,
Just WHY is a supposedly PAKI hybrid (or are you Indian) confused-identity like you advocating REUNIFICATION?!!!

Its like asking a goddamned divorced couple (with irreconcilable issues) to kiss & REMARRY!
Gimme a frikkin` break! Are you SERIOUS?!!!

Shuuuuute, every single Indian I know (including & ESP Indian BOMBAY katlus) SHUDDER at that thought! Maybe these goddamned Northies have wet sentimental dreams...

Heck...I dont mind giving a Paki woman a friendly peck on the cheek (if she could lift up that... er...burkha ghungaat)...but to have lascivious thoughts!! tauba tauba!! dunno why?...but I keep picturing 72 nagging virginial SISTERS; if I do that...& it kinda KILLS it for most smart Indians..

We dont want you back...
PUHLEEAASE keep Azaaaaad Kashmir too!

These NORTHIE ``old buzzards`` born before Partition worry me...I swear to ALLAH...if these Northie duffers EVER want reunification...India will be partitioned again...

From Bombay DOWN...all of S.India will declare independance...f*ck Kashmir even...we will invade Sri Lanka & annex it...just for spite

Re: # 25

Salim,

ALLAH-DAMN-IT!!!

{{I am a pragmatist. I say ``if you can`t beat `em then join `em.`` If the best that we Pakis can do is to take another 58 years to approximate Indian democracy, then why not just become a part of it, but seriously. We will, of course, have to abandon the Islamic rule, Muslim Ummah, Shariah Code, Hudood stuff, and other such nonsense. Religion will have to be a deeply personal and individual matter, much as it is in the West today.

Admitting to failure is the first sign of success. :)}}

There you go AGAIN...gasp!...tauba tauba!

Yo! What KIND of bs is THIS?
Are you trying to make an estranged wife pay alimony to a prepuceless-brainless dysfunctional husband?....Is that some wiiiieeeerd kind of Paki-Islamic jurisprudence?!

Let Mr Pakistan marry goddamned wahabi dukkar-i Ms Saudi Arabia....
Now THAT would be POETIC justice...
jeeze...about a zillion beautiful Paki houris & a million pretty-punjabi/pathan-baloch boys have been gifted by Mr Pakistan to maintain his megalomaniacal lifestyle...

Nice try! baccha...we brahmins aint as DUMB as we look!

Re: # 27

Yow!
Thanks for the education; Salim
At least Allah has put SOME brain cells in your skull.

Now, if you can be a REAL nice guy...could you...puhlease petition your govt....to take a foetid, hyena-laughing, nightsoil carrying, unemployed (i-hate-indian-indoor-plummin) dalit...to KARACHI!

BUTT BUTT tell your great citizens...they have NO LEG to stand on...when their leaders have spat on Jinnah & Prophet Muhammed in such a shameless manner..when they preach to us...or think they are a HIGH MORAL GROUND when it comes to Kashmir...

Khuda Hafiz

Salim,

I don`t agree with your opinion- the flag that Mountbatten wanted to push through was actually completely green.

The white strip was added because of Jinnah`s insistence. Jinnah also insisted on having 5 stars, one for each federating unit.

It is important that we mention again and again the National Anthem approved by Mahomed Ali Jinnah himself... a completely secular national anthem written by Jagan Nath Azad.

This article is another pious lecture by a representative of a people who will never look the problem straight in face – because they secretly WANT things to stay just the way they are.

[Pakistan`s destiny cannot forever be controlled by a group of people or by any establishment, regardless of whether it is foreign or domestic.]
The key question, my dear, is if it will be done so by RELIGION? Keep evading that question – and nothing will change. Institutions are created and broken by men – exact forms are unimportant. The heart needs to have the desire for a change.

#Shankar (various)
Back from the couch, already?!

Re: # 33

BeeJay,

{{Back from the couch, already?! }}

YUP!!! these days I MAKE time to ``get a life``....juuuuussst to spit on Bihari papayas...like thou..

Re: # 24

Salim_chouhan

I wonder at Paki Awam how easily they left `Khuda hafiz` and started chanting `Allah hafiz`. Once when a daughter-in-law of mine wished `Allah hafiz` to me I retorted, ``Don`t hand over a sinner like me to Allah, the vengeful, instead of `Khuda or Rab` the compassionate. Why not say `Rab Raakha```. Some extremist mullah have serious objection to calling Allah by a Pagan name `Khuda` which act according to them is `Gunahe Kabeera` but paradoxically they insist on giving a Pagan name, `Namaz`, from the same source to their worship, Quranic Salaat. It seems we have gone back to `Doure Jahiliah` when human beings behaved like robots, bereft of their `Aql`.

Much is being made said on this board about the rationale for Pakistan. Some say it was Jinnah`s dream of a progressive, secular land, while others insist that it is exactly what Muslim masses wanted, a religious homeland where they could practice Islam to its fullest.

I beg to differ with both viewpoints. In my opinion, Pakistan was formed out of economic interests. The Congress Party had come out for land reforms, but only for UP and Bihar (where mostly Muslims were the land-owning ``nobility.`` In Punjab, Bengal, and Sind, the landowners were mostly Sikhs and Hindus. This selective ``land reform`` agenda of the Congress alarmed many UP Muslims who cleverly (or selfishly or stupidly) converted this fear into an ``Islamic`` issue. AligaRh was mobilized and we went through iterations of Muslim leadership of the Muslim League - Mohammad Ali Jauhar etc..

This fear of Congress ``land reform`` among UP Muslims met the aspirations of Bombay-based Gujarati/MaRwari Muslim business interests, and the frustations of Bengali Muslims at always having the short end of the stick in Bengal. Thus an alliance of economic interests was formed that needed some holy water to make it bloom. Jauhar, Iqbal, and others could not provide what the newly-converted Mr. Jinnah was able to deliver - effective leadership and credibility with the British. Poor Punjabi, Sindhi, and Pathan Muslims, who never really wanted Pakistan, were dragged into having a ``religious`` party right on their front yard. There was no real referendum for Pakistan. Muslims were voting for the Muslim League, because they thought it was protecting their ``economic`` interests for beter employment, education, protection of lands, and as a check against perceived ``political and economic`` domination by the majority Hindus.

The key point to remember is that the really religious people and parties, notably Jamaat-e-Islami, Maulana Azad, Maulana Maududi, Maulana Madni, and other Muslim leaders were vehmently against Pakistan.

Thanks for listening. :)

The LB Elections are marred in contreversy. It`s hopeless.

Re: # 35

Shah Sahib, {``It seems we have gone back to `Doure Jahiliah` when human beings behaved like robots, bereft of their `Aql`.``}

Sir, couldn`t agree more with you. :)

Just look at ``Rab Rakha`` it is Arabic and Punjabi - e.g. Rab-ul-Alimeen. :)
Now, some Sikh clergyman could say that they should change it to ``Wahe Guru Rakha.`` That would be OK, but why? Isn`t it the intent that counts? When I say ``Khuda Hafiz,`` the farthest thing from my mind is paying any homage to the deity of Cyrus, Darius, and Nosheerwan - not that there is anything wrong with that either.

BTW, my name is spelled Chauhan, not Chouhan - no rodentary insinuation, please. :) Saminasha on UP has the patent on that. :)
Thanks,

Re: # 31 Shankar {``Thanks for the education; Salim
At least Allah has put SOME brain cells in your skull. ``}

Shankar Bhayya,
Your education is priority #1 for me. :)

As I said before, Rajputs do not need brain cells. We are warriors and lovers. ``)

Re: # 30, Shankar {``Nice try! baccha...we brahmins aint as DUMB as we look!``}

Shankar Bhayya,
I never said that you Brahmins were DUMB. Who else could get away with having paindoos pucker their pale posteriors while paying them paisas? And to top it off, having valiant Rajputs defend your right to have your Brahmin buttocks blessed by beautiful banniya bimbos. :)

Re: # 29, Shankar {``From Bombay DOWN...all of S.India will declare independance...f*ck Kashmir even...we will invade Sri Lanka & annex it...just for spite :}

Arey Shankar Bhayya,
Did you guys lose another match to the Sri Lankans? :)

#34 Shankar

Ah, the long separated love of my life! How have I missed you!

Aren`t YOU the one who went around challenging Biharis - and now that you bumped into the REAL thing - Kai kartos? What`s the matter - you expect every one to treat you like a soft daisy (oh, how delicate!) like you have gotten used to from that pretend Bihari friend of yours? Stop relieving yourself in your pants, we Biharis are really benign individuals!

[...``get a life``...]
Interseting quote from somebody like you (Member since: December 29, 1999). I DO have a life - as a legitimate janitor. You only wish you could have been one - only in your dreams, pal! I don`t think you are made of the right stuff to become one, either, strictly on moral grounds! Because I see you have been two-timing (as in ``...I love both lands with a passion.. ``)

Re: # 38

Chauhan dear! Sorry to have misspelled your name. As far as I remember my friends Chauhans spelled it with `o`. Any how, it is only a personal choice. No mention.

You reminded me of Cyrus and with him Yahya khan who made Pakies to celebrate the Millenium or what of the great Cyrus to please Raza Shah, the king of Iran, but today even the name of Cyrus` god, Khuda, which has been used even in the National Anthem of Pakistan, has become an anathema in that Pakland. It was perhaps Zia, the pseudo-Islamist, who started monoplysing the Arabic God, Allah, to please Saudi gods of his. All this inspite of the fact that our past literature, even religious one , is full of the name of `Khuda`. It reminds me of the famous couplet of Urdu poet Akbar Allah Abadi which seems to be very `Hasbe haal` today:

``Raqiibon ne rapat likhwaai ja ja ke thane mein
kih Akbar nam leta he khuda ka is zamane mein``

Let us see which god the enlightened moderation of Musharraf brings in. It is yet in the process of making.

Re: # 36
``The key point to remember is that the really religious people and parties, notably Jamaat-e-Islami, Maulana Azad, Maulana Maududi, Maulana Madni, and other Muslim leaders were vehmently against Pakistan.``

I think this needs clarification..............most of them opposed Pakistan on theological grounds only and because a visibly anglicized Jinnah was hijacking movement which they tried to derive its roots from Islamic solidarity. In a way the maulanas had a grouse against Jinnah taking the political cake on grounds for which only they were obviously better qualified ............Therefore, they opposed Pakistan NOT on political grounds but on THEOLOGICAL grounds...

In case of Maududi the issue was of Islamic principles..........although he was not a pro-active supporter for the movement for homeland being led by a westernized Jinnah.......he didn`t admire an anglicized Jinnah hijacking the Islamic notion of solidarity and diluting it for political purposes..........to him a homeland or a piece of territory was irrelevant unless the rule of god was established on it............so clearly he was for a Pakistan that was an Islamic nation and not for a Pakistan that was merely a muslim land ......

Scholars like Madni had better arguments. He opposed TNT or ``do quami nazariya`` on the grounds that it was not supported by Quran. Madni had argued that the Qur’an mentions various prophets as addressing those among their own people who rejected them as members of their own ‘qaum’, exhorting them to heed God’s word. From this, Madni argued, it is clear that, Muslims and non-Muslims cannot be considered to be members of two different ‘qaums’ if they share a common ethnicity, language or motherland. If they share these traits in common they can be said to belong to the same ‘qaum’. The ‘two nation’ theory (do qaumi nazariya) of the Muslim League, therefore, has no Qur’anic basis at all...........

So, this is another propaganda by the neo-TNTists that the maulanas and mullahs opposed Pakistan........the fact remains they only opposed the sight of an anglicized Jinnah leading the movement on the plank which they thought they should be guiding................

Re: # 43

Shah Sahib,
That was an excellent shair from Akbar Allahbadi. Maybe we should launch a ``rappat`` about the awkward use of the good name of Allah in ``Allah Hafiz.``
BTW, no harm done in spelling my name as ``Chouhan.`` I know that you meant well. It`s just that there a few Muslims and Pakistanis on Chowk UP (Saminasha, Scout, and others) who find this Hindu name funny and associate it with rodents, much to their collective orgasmic pleasure. :)

Thanks,

Re: # 21

Mantolives

It is news to me, this anthem written by Jagan Nath Azad marhoom. Can we see the full anthem, please?

Salim_chauhan

Re: # 45
Thanks! But what is this `collective orgasmic pleasure` which Samina shah and Scout, etc., enjoy by referring to rodents, as you allege? Will you please elaborate?