HEC Juggernaut and Pervez Hoodbhoy

Pakistan (CIA factbook 2005):

Median age: 19.58 years
Population growth: 2.03%

Total fertility rate:
4.14 children born/woman

Conclusion:
There is ``demographic bulge`` of young men/women coming into working age in Pakistan.
are the jobs there?

(yes, the same is true of a lesser extent in India as well)

romair mian,

...... ``You will not see people going hungry`` ........... uh ?......which pakistan are you talking about ? ........ go to the tandoors on the back side of peshawar more or aabpara at dinner time and take a look around .............. dozens of people with little barefoot kids in tow sit around like vultures and rush people who come there every day to distribute roti - mind you, just plain old roti, no salan or biryani !........... okay, you might say they are afghanis - but they all have natiional id cards ! ........ in case you don`t know, a roti is now 5 rupees and a day laborer is lucky if he can find work for a 100 rupees a day ........ just go down to hathi chowk to pick up a day laborer (who provides his own ganti and shovel) and you will be mobbed by a crowd of miserable starving creatures worried about the next roti (not meal) ............... go there at about six and stay there till the shops open at about nine, and see how many of them actually find work - the rest go hungry

............ it is comments like this that prove that you are out completely of touch with reality and clueless.........

Re: # 32
I mean to say that exactly the same reasoning, that people use to find answers from Quran to the scientific questions, can also be used to, for example, derive all the axioms of quantum mechanics from writings (and perhaps sayings) of Khwaja Mir Dard. After they hear of some scientific discovery the same people come running with claims that Quran had already predicted it in some of its verse. The hollowness of such claims is self-apparent from the simple fact that these people come forward always AFTER listening (or may be learning its rudiments) to the news of the discovery and never BEFORE. I have never heard of an example where these people could have come forward with a prediction of some scientific value made in advance than the scientists themselves.

Re: # 32
Such a suggestion may be of interest but will be similar in spirit to the case of someone trying to deduce Maxwell`s field equations from the kalam of Mir Taqi Mir, or may be deriving the sensitivities of love from Newton`s Principia.

There was another article by Prof. Hoodbhoy where he put forward some very interesting questions http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000677&channel=university%20ave

I have put down some of these questions. Could anybody suggest how some people believe the answers to these questions can be found from the Quran?

1. NEW PLANETS? There is exciting new evidence of planets that lie far outside the solar system. How were these discovered and what is the possibility of life in other parts of the universe?

2. CRIME IN THE GENES. Genetic evidence now points to individuals inheriting tendencies towards violent and anti-social behaviour. But which influences our behaviour more - nature or nurture?

3. MAKING ANTIMATTER. The prediction that anti-matter exists is now confirmed. But why is there so little of anti-matter in the universe? Recently anti-hydrogen has also been produced. How, and why could this be revolutionary?
...
5. THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING. The quest for the ultimate structure of matter may be nearing an end with recent advances in this area. We are now being forced to admit that our world may not be simply 4-dimensional but 10-dimensional. The main ideas and still open questions will be presented.

6. CAN COMPUTERS THINK? Artificial intelligence programs running on computers come close to simulating human beings. How and in what sense? Does this mean that humans are replaceable?
...
8. MENTAL ILLNESS. Exorcism and torture are widely used even today in Pakistan to attack diseases of the mind. But mental illness may actually be no different from ailments of the body, and modern science has discovered certain cures via therapy and special drugs.

9. THE ARROW OF TIME. Humans perceive time as an eternally forward flowing river. But the laws of physics are equally true for the forward and backward flow of time. So what lies behind our perception? Is travel into the past possible?

Doing charity work is commendable. And so is the work for educational reform. I haven`t
closely researched the field but I think Prof, Hoodbhoy is probably the first whistle-blower on HEC and I fail to see that he is doing it for self-aggrandizement or for some other ulterior motive.

There are countless self-serving people who are dying to get a medal from the government of Pakistan; he is the one, on the other hand, who did not accept it to make a point. Seeking some recognition and publicity is a human weakness and if he indulges it it occasionally, it should not throw overboard all the good work that he is doing.

I am glad to see that Amer Iqbal has provided support to the cause that Prof. Hoodbhoy initiated. If the HEC administration is somehow guilty of mismanaging the HEC, some other author(s) should also come forward to write unbiased and well-researched articles on this issue. This is a very important issue of national importance.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 27 (Viewer),

WARNING: Off-topic.

You say ``Scientists hardly preach their own lack of faith``. There are numerous examples of scientists who have publicly and vociferously challenged the existance of God. Stephen Hawking is a vocal advocate of atheism, having discussed it with celebrities, one of his publications states ``there is no place for a Creator``. Hardy was a famous mathematician at the beginning of the 20th century, one of his (publicly stated) life goals was to prove mathematically that God does not exist, this was preceded only by the proof of the Reimann Hypothesis in his list of TODO things. In fact, the only believer among top-tier scientists that I have read about is Sir Isaac of the Newton`s Laws of Gravitation, but suffice it to say that at the time science was too nascent and religious dogma too well entrenched for him to have thought otherwise. Don`t get me wrong, this is not at all a condemnation of scientists. Matter of fact, I would love nothing more than to have enough faith to dismiss their arguments and convince myself of God`s existance, or have enough horse-power between my temples to convince myself, and others, of God`s inexistance. I guess this is the burden of physicists (and to some extent mathematicians) insofar as they are privy to the intricate workings of the universe and thus have questions vexing them far deeper than those any of us could conjure up.

You disagree with my statement of the government being justified in imposing things such as headscarves. Well, that`s your opinion, and it`s your right to have one different from mine, and vice versa.

As for the tshirt and Aryan supremacists in Israel, they were simply hypothetical examples of vocal minority viewpoints being foisted upon an orthodoxy that does not tolerate them, much like Dr Hoodbhoy and his atheism is not tolerated gracefully by the Islamic orthodoxy of Pakistani society (I did state that the examples were progressively more extreme).

Regards,
Irfan.

Re: # 28
romair
I agree there are a lot of positive things taking place in pakistan, but the thing is HEC budget has increased by 1200% probably unprecedented in the world, thats too much too fast, there is bound to be corruption and mismanagement.

IMO increased funding should have been gradual and better managed, with more resouces devoted to primary and secondary sectors of education.

Aslam644 #18: There are a lot of people doing a lot of good stuff in Pakistan. If you aren`t already involved in the philanthropic and charity circles of Pakistan, in some capacity, I would suggest you do so. You will then see a Pakistan that will open anyone’s eyes. People always critique my optimism on Pakistan, as if it is misguided. It actually has a lot of basis in reality, in my opinion……..

Pakistan is rated 142 on the HDI index. It is rated below many South Asian countries. Palestine Liberation Org areas are ranked 102. Yet walk around Pakistan and there are a couple of things you will not see. You will not see people going hungry. And you will not see people sleeping on the street. Yet to go countries that are ranked higher than Pakistan, with much stronger financial statistics for their govts, you will see both these things.

Have you ever wondered why?

I am convinced that while Pakistanis may not pay taxes, they give a lot under philanthropy. And it stretches from the poorest of Pakistanis to the wealthiest of industrialists. Now that I have a bit of experience in the area, I am amazed at how much these wealthy businessmen, like Memon families etc, give to charity.

Edhi can stand on a street corner and women will come and throw their jewelry at his feet. He now even has a center than looks after stray donkeys. He has airplane(s). All run by volunteers with a minimum of staff. There are thousands of madrassahs running in Pakistan. Setting aside their religious/non religious credentials, they do feed and house hundreds of thousands to perhaps over a million kids, without any money from the govt. Everyday people donate to them, and give them food etc……..Places like Data Darbar etc. have langars of donated food for the poor.......

I heard Imran Khan speak once. He said, a month before the finish date of his cancer hospital, his team ran out of money. In one month, they needed to collect some gigantic amount ($4 million or 400k ?). Can’t remember the exact figure. He said he decided on drastic measures. He rented a truck, put a large box in the back and drove to the poor parts of Pakistan. Covering one city a day. Within, one month, he had all the money collected, primarily in donations of small amounts from poor people……..People in far off NWFP etc. donated for a hospital in Lahore……

Imran is, I think, now going to build one in Karachi. And I am 200%, people will donate like crazy, again………

I have nothing against Hoodbhoy. More power to him. He is doing a hell of a lot more for Pakistan than I am now (though in my previous career, I would like to think I was doing as much as him). My only argument is that there are a lot of people doing a lot of positive activism, who don’t get much of the similar limelight, because they keep a low profile………which in my opinion is the way to go……..

Re: # 23
#23 by irfanhamid on August 16, 2005 11:40am PT
Agreed mostly your comment about Salam.
Scientists hardly preach their own lack of faith; however, such conclusions are usually unjustifiably drawn when they initiate a discussion about the conflict between reason and faith. An argument to use reason is taken as an attack on faith of the listening faithful.

``the government has a right to enforce its own wish if they feel it is required`` I beg to disagree. Such right can not be given solely because the government represents majority`s view. I also disagree with French government`s decision. Everyone has a right to practice his/her religion and banning of head scarfs is unjustified.

``does that mean that the most effective way to bring about a change in American public opinion is to go there and start parading around Manhattan wearing a ``Down with Imperialist America`` t-shirt?`` Which scientists have tried to announce their faiths (or its absence) in such fashion? I certainly know that Hoodbhoy has never done that, neither Salam who stoutly practised his religion all his life.

``Israelis would never tolerate an Aryan supremacist living among them, for understandable reasons`` It is invalid comparison. Liberty to live without faith is not, in any sense, the same as giving a supreme status to the absence of faith.

Re: # 23

irfan,

...... i don`t think dr hoodbhoy goes around proclaiming and defending atheism, but somehow he has earned the reputation and his detractors do not loose any opportunity to use it to discredit him ........... as a matter of fact, i don`t think i have ever heard him talk about this personal beliefs and i don`t believe he has ever written about them ............ but as we all know, labels do matter ...........

...... in any case, even though his religion has nothing to do with his views on the hec, it does explain why he doesn`t have too many friends and defenders in pakistan`s religiously charged academia .............

For those who critisize his role as someone who, supposedly, only critisizes all I can say is that even if it were true, he is doing a good job at it. An end result might be that HEC might start some sort of audit.

And why are Hoodbhoy`s religious beliefs even being discussed?

For those who critisize his role as someone who, supposedly, only critisizes all I can say is that even if it were true, he is doing a good job at it. An end result might be that HEC might start some sort of audit.

And why are Hoodbhoy`s religious beliefs even being discussed?

Re: # 20 (Viewer),

Don`t shoot the messenger. Like I said, I don`t think there should be any problem with a person being an atheist, but there IS.

1) In France, the government does not allow civil servants to wear headscarves at work; although I find this slightly oppressive, but I still think that the government has a right to enforce its own wish if they feel it is required. Nowhere in my post did I say that Dr Hoodbhoy should not BE an atheist, only that he tone it down a bit.

2) I believe that American foreign policy is wrong, but does that mean that the most effective way to bring about a change in American public opinion is to go there and start parading around Manhattan wearing a ``Down with Imperialist America`` t-shirt? NO.

3) Israelis would never tolerate an Aryan supremacist living among them, for understandable reasons.

The three examples I gave are progressively increasing in severity, and I`m sure everyone would conclude that the ``establishment`` being irritated would be justified in each. I live in a largely secular country, I have atheist friends, yet I never try to preach God to them. Does that mean I lose my faith? No. Similarly, if the good physicist does not preach or promote or advertise his atheism, does that make him less of an atheist? I don`t think so.

Regards,
Irfan.

PS: I think that our treatment of Dr Abdus-Salam was probably the worst example of religious persecution since the harassment of Galileo by the Catholic church. In the end, it was Pakistan that lost by a large margin, not Salam. Men like Salam will never want for nations that lay claim to him, but he will want for the nation that SHOULD have embraced him. The nobility of the man is that he did not reject Pakistan to the very end.

Re: # 21
hamidm2,
This is what exactly needs to be changed, instead of requiring that scientists trying to make headway should become faithful Muslims first. The conflict between scientific inquiry and faith is very old and most scientists find it impossible to reconcile the two. If scientific inquiry is to be established as an institution then its norms must be accepted and the mentioned conflict must be taken into account and scientist should be left alone in matters of faith. The other option of requiring scientists to become faithful first, before their services could be recognised, only leads to the phenomenon of ``Islamic science`` whose practitioners keep themselves busy with justifying science from religion, or sometimes the other way round. The point is that the phenomenon leads to immediate decline of real practice of science, and most often accompanies the exodus of scientist. Wherever real science is practised and gives fruitful results no interference is made in scientists` personal faiths. My point is that it is the society that should accept science and its practitioners by broadening it vision and looking at the history of the conflict between reason and religion, instead of requiring the practitioners to accept the faiths of the society before being accredited. The later leads to only the second rate practitioners left to derive science from religion or otherwise, as happened in the Lahore conference mentioned by Amer Iqbal.

Re: # 20

viewer,

......... agreed ..... but in a place like pakistan it is awfully difficult to make any headway if you are labelled a ``dharia`` or a ``murtad`` or a ``munafiq``, regardless of how brilliant and sincere you are............ even the ``enlightened moderates`` are a little wary of associating with you - no one wants to run the risk ........... the unwashed masses and their fetid leaders have no problem with cutting off their nose to spite their face .......