Jerry’s Pakistan
Yasser Latif Hamdani August 16, 2005
#458 Posted by Netizen on August 20, 2005 5:31:47 pm
Manto:
On the conversions of Gandhi’s son to Islam
(Selected writings of Gandhi)
compiled by SUNIL SHARMA
Published by Gandhi Book center, Bombay Sarvodaya Mandal, Mumbai- 400 007.
TO MY NUMEROUS MUSLIM FRIENDS
The newspaper report that about a fortnight ago my eldest son Harilal, now nearing fifty years, accepted Islam and that on Friday last 29th May in the midst of a large congregation in the Juma Masjid at Bombay he was permitted to announce his acceptance amid great acclamation and that after his speech was finished, he was besieged by his admirers who vied with one another to shake hands with him. If his acceptance was from the heart and free from any worldly considerations, I should have no quarrel. For I believe Islam to be as true a religion as my own.
But I have the gravest doubt about his acceptance being from the heart or free from selfish considerations. Every one who knows my son Harilal, knows that he has been in the habit of visiting houses of ill fame. For some years he has been living on the charity of friends who have helped him unstintingly. He is indebted to some Pathans from whom he had borrowed on heavy interest. Up to only recently he was in dread of his life from his Pathan creditors in Bombay. Now he is the hero of the hour in that city. He had a most devoted wife always forgave his many sins including his unfaithfulness. He has three grown up children, two daughters and one son, whom he ceased to support long ago.
Not many weeks ago he write to the press complaining against Hindus- not Hinduism- and threatening to go over to Christianity or Islam. The language of the letter showed quite clearly that he would go over to the highest bidder. That letter had the desired effect. Through the good offices of a Hindu councilor, he got a job in Nagpur municipality. And he came out with another letter to the Press about recalling the first and declaring emphatic adherence to his ancestral faith.
But, as events have proved, his pecuniary ambition was not satisfied and in order to satisfy that ambition, he has embraced Islam. There are other facts which are known to me and which strengthen my inference.
When I was in Nagpur in April last, he had come to see me and his mother and he told me how he was amused by the attention s that he were being paid to him by the missionaries of rival faiths. God can work wonders. He has been known to have changed the stoniest hearts and turned sinners into saints, as it were, in a moment. Nothing will please me better than to find that during the Nagpur meeting and the Friday announcement he had repented of the past and had suddenly become a changed man having shed the drink habit sexual lust.
But the Press reports give no such evidence. He still delights sensation and in good living. If he had changed, he would have written to me to gladden my heart. All my children have had the greatest freedom of thought and action. They have been taught to regard all religions with the same respect that they paid to their own. Harilal knew that if he had told me had found the key to a right life and peace in Islam, I would have put no obstacles in his path. But no one of us, including his son now, twenty-four years old and who is with me, knew anything about the event till we saw the announcement in the Press.
My views on Islam are well known to the Mussalmans who are reported to have enthused over my son`s profession. A brotherhood of Islam has telegraphed to me thus, `` Expect like your son you truth-seeker to embrace Islam truest religion of world.``
I must confess that all this has hurt me. I sense no religion spirit behind this demonstration. I feel that those who are responsible for Hiralal`s acceptance to Islam did not take the most ordinary precautions they ought to have in a case of this kind. Harilal`s apostacy is no loss to Hinduism and his admission to Islam a source of weekness to it, as I apprehend, he remains the same wreck that he was before.
Surely conversion is a matter between man and Maker who alone knows His creatures` hearts. And conversion a clean heart is, in my popinion, a denial of God and religion. Conversion without cleanness of heart can only be a matter for sorrow, not joy, to a godly person.
HIRALAL GANDHI IN KANPUR
``Yaadon ke Jharokhe se`` (Through the Windows of Memory)
Shivnath Sharma, Page 28-29
(Translated from original Hindi.)
This incident dates back to 1936-37 when I was a student in Kanpur`s DAV college and was preparing for the law examination. I used to live in the college hostel.
Inter-community relations in Kanpur of those times had reached their nadir. People still had fresh in their minds the memories of the big Hindu-Muslim riots. The embers of communal hatred were being fanned by the so-called ``community leaders`` on both sides.
On one side there was this Maulana Bukhari, fond of giving long speeches, thoroughly quenched in communal venom. People of a certain community used to regularly attend his meetings and encourage him at intervals by shouting incendiary slogans. Typically, these meetings concluded with the bringing of a few persons, purportedly Hindus, on the podium, wishing to embrace Islam. They were made to recite the Kalama (affirmation of faith, required of those embracing Islam), and were thus ceremonially inducted into the ranks of the believers.
Often times, Hindus too used to convene retaliatory meetings, which were equally inciting.
Not only did the authorities make absolutely no effort to curb such gatherings, but in actuality they tacitly encouraged them. The reasons were clear. The independence movement was in full swing, and the calculated policy of the government was to weaken it by keeping Muslims and Hindus in a perpetual state of warfare.
Just about that time Mahatma Gandhi`s son Hiralal Gandhi was making news. Whether it was because of his illustrious father`s indifference towards him, or any other reason, he had fallen into the abyss of degradation. He had become addicted to alcohol and women. His moral character had plummeted to the gutter level. Some Muslim fanatics saw their opportunity to slander the Mahatma, fanned the fires in the son by assisting him in his evil desires. A a prelude, he was coaxed into Islam and given a new name: Abdullah Gandhi. Then he was made a show-piece at Muslim gatherings all over India. Wherever he was exhibited, the Muslim slogan used to be: ``Today the son has known the true religion of Islam, tomorrow we shall make Gandhi (M.K.) recite the Kalama.``
How could Kanpur be immune to this malady? As expected, with great fanfare Abdullah Gandhi, alias Hiralal was brought to Kanpur and was show-cased in a mammoth meeting. The same slogans- ``The Son Today, the Father Tomorrow`` were repeated. Then in accordance with the usual routine of previous meetings, some imposters and hired characters posing as Hindus took the Islamic oath, and were ceremonially inducted into Islam. The meeting then formed into a procession. I had the chance to watch this procession with a few of my friends from a close angle.
The procession was fairly big, and passed raucously through the important thoroughfares of the city, shouting inflammatory slogans. The centerpiece was, of course, Abdullah Gandhi sitting in an open `Buggy` (horse drawn carriage). On either side of him was a man holding him for support because he was heavily drunk. He was wearing a pair of loose pyjamas, black `sherwani` topped by a Sheikh Abdullah style fur cap. His eyes were bloodshot, and he was swinging under the influence. When the procession passed through Moolganj (the red-light district of Kanpur) the scene became hilarious. On both sides of the road, on the balconies and rooftops, the prostitutes turned out to watch the spectacle. Our `hero` Abdullah Gandhi bowing to them, was sending his `Salaams` through the air, which were profusely reciprocated to by the ladies of the night. At one spot, while doing his Salaams, Abdullah lost his balance and rolled to the floor of the carriage. His facilitators somehow lifted him up and put him back in his seat.
Needless to say, my heart filled with grief and indignation over the tragic fall of a great man`s offspring.
On the conversions of Gandhi’s son to Islam
(Selected writings of Gandhi)
compiled by SUNIL SHARMA
Published by Gandhi Book center, Bombay Sarvodaya Mandal, Mumbai- 400 007.
TO MY NUMEROUS MUSLIM FRIENDS
The newspaper report that about a fortnight ago my eldest son Harilal, now nearing fifty years, accepted Islam and that on Friday last 29th May in the midst of a large congregation in the Juma Masjid at Bombay he was permitted to announce his acceptance amid great acclamation and that after his speech was finished, he was besieged by his admirers who vied with one another to shake hands with him. If his acceptance was from the heart and free from any worldly considerations, I should have no quarrel. For I believe Islam to be as true a religion as my own.
But I have the gravest doubt about his acceptance being from the heart or free from selfish considerations. Every one who knows my son Harilal, knows that he has been in the habit of visiting houses of ill fame. For some years he has been living on the charity of friends who have helped him unstintingly. He is indebted to some Pathans from whom he had borrowed on heavy interest. Up to only recently he was in dread of his life from his Pathan creditors in Bombay. Now he is the hero of the hour in that city. He had a most devoted wife always forgave his many sins including his unfaithfulness. He has three grown up children, two daughters and one son, whom he ceased to support long ago.
Not many weeks ago he write to the press complaining against Hindus- not Hinduism- and threatening to go over to Christianity or Islam. The language of the letter showed quite clearly that he would go over to the highest bidder. That letter had the desired effect. Through the good offices of a Hindu councilor, he got a job in Nagpur municipality. And he came out with another letter to the Press about recalling the first and declaring emphatic adherence to his ancestral faith.
But, as events have proved, his pecuniary ambition was not satisfied and in order to satisfy that ambition, he has embraced Islam. There are other facts which are known to me and which strengthen my inference.
When I was in Nagpur in April last, he had come to see me and his mother and he told me how he was amused by the attention s that he were being paid to him by the missionaries of rival faiths. God can work wonders. He has been known to have changed the stoniest hearts and turned sinners into saints, as it were, in a moment. Nothing will please me better than to find that during the Nagpur meeting and the Friday announcement he had repented of the past and had suddenly become a changed man having shed the drink habit sexual lust.
But the Press reports give no such evidence. He still delights sensation and in good living. If he had changed, he would have written to me to gladden my heart. All my children have had the greatest freedom of thought and action. They have been taught to regard all religions with the same respect that they paid to their own. Harilal knew that if he had told me had found the key to a right life and peace in Islam, I would have put no obstacles in his path. But no one of us, including his son now, twenty-four years old and who is with me, knew anything about the event till we saw the announcement in the Press.
My views on Islam are well known to the Mussalmans who are reported to have enthused over my son`s profession. A brotherhood of Islam has telegraphed to me thus, `` Expect like your son you truth-seeker to embrace Islam truest religion of world.``
I must confess that all this has hurt me. I sense no religion spirit behind this demonstration. I feel that those who are responsible for Hiralal`s acceptance to Islam did not take the most ordinary precautions they ought to have in a case of this kind. Harilal`s apostacy is no loss to Hinduism and his admission to Islam a source of weekness to it, as I apprehend, he remains the same wreck that he was before.
Surely conversion is a matter between man and Maker who alone knows His creatures` hearts. And conversion a clean heart is, in my popinion, a denial of God and religion. Conversion without cleanness of heart can only be a matter for sorrow, not joy, to a godly person.
HIRALAL GANDHI IN KANPUR
``Yaadon ke Jharokhe se`` (Through the Windows of Memory)
Shivnath Sharma, Page 28-29
(Translated from original Hindi.)
This incident dates back to 1936-37 when I was a student in Kanpur`s DAV college and was preparing for the law examination. I used to live in the college hostel.
Inter-community relations in Kanpur of those times had reached their nadir. People still had fresh in their minds the memories of the big Hindu-Muslim riots. The embers of communal hatred were being fanned by the so-called ``community leaders`` on both sides.
On one side there was this Maulana Bukhari, fond of giving long speeches, thoroughly quenched in communal venom. People of a certain community used to regularly attend his meetings and encourage him at intervals by shouting incendiary slogans. Typically, these meetings concluded with the bringing of a few persons, purportedly Hindus, on the podium, wishing to embrace Islam. They were made to recite the Kalama (affirmation of faith, required of those embracing Islam), and were thus ceremonially inducted into the ranks of the believers.
Often times, Hindus too used to convene retaliatory meetings, which were equally inciting.
Not only did the authorities make absolutely no effort to curb such gatherings, but in actuality they tacitly encouraged them. The reasons were clear. The independence movement was in full swing, and the calculated policy of the government was to weaken it by keeping Muslims and Hindus in a perpetual state of warfare.
Just about that time Mahatma Gandhi`s son Hiralal Gandhi was making news. Whether it was because of his illustrious father`s indifference towards him, or any other reason, he had fallen into the abyss of degradation. He had become addicted to alcohol and women. His moral character had plummeted to the gutter level. Some Muslim fanatics saw their opportunity to slander the Mahatma, fanned the fires in the son by assisting him in his evil desires. A a prelude, he was coaxed into Islam and given a new name: Abdullah Gandhi. Then he was made a show-piece at Muslim gatherings all over India. Wherever he was exhibited, the Muslim slogan used to be: ``Today the son has known the true religion of Islam, tomorrow we shall make Gandhi (M.K.) recite the Kalama.``
How could Kanpur be immune to this malady? As expected, with great fanfare Abdullah Gandhi, alias Hiralal was brought to Kanpur and was show-cased in a mammoth meeting. The same slogans- ``The Son Today, the Father Tomorrow`` were repeated. Then in accordance with the usual routine of previous meetings, some imposters and hired characters posing as Hindus took the Islamic oath, and were ceremonially inducted into Islam. The meeting then formed into a procession. I had the chance to watch this procession with a few of my friends from a close angle.
The procession was fairly big, and passed raucously through the important thoroughfares of the city, shouting inflammatory slogans. The centerpiece was, of course, Abdullah Gandhi sitting in an open `Buggy` (horse drawn carriage). On either side of him was a man holding him for support because he was heavily drunk. He was wearing a pair of loose pyjamas, black `sherwani` topped by a Sheikh Abdullah style fur cap. His eyes were bloodshot, and he was swinging under the influence. When the procession passed through Moolganj (the red-light district of Kanpur) the scene became hilarious. On both sides of the road, on the balconies and rooftops, the prostitutes turned out to watch the spectacle. Our `hero` Abdullah Gandhi bowing to them, was sending his `Salaams` through the air, which were profusely reciprocated to by the ladies of the night. At one spot, while doing his Salaams, Abdullah lost his balance and rolled to the floor of the carriage. His facilitators somehow lifted him up and put him back in his seat.
Needless to say, my heart filled with grief and indignation over the tragic fall of a great man`s offspring.
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#457 Posted by Netizen on August 20, 2005 5:28:55 pm
Re: # 430
``As for the other post- Gandhi reacted pretty badly to his son`s conversion so much so ``
and how did Jinnah react to his daughters marriage to a Parsi converted to Christianity?
The relationship was marred by the fact that Dina wanted to marry a Parsi-born Christian, Neville Wadia. Jinnah tried to dissuade her, just like Sir Dinshaw had tried to influence his daughter many years ago, but to no avail. Justice Chagla recalls, ” Jinnah, in his usual imperious manner, told her that there were millions of Muslim boys in India, and she could have anyone she chose. Then the young lady…replied: ‘Father, there were millions of Muslim girls in India. Why did you not marry one of them?’
The relationship became formal after she married. They did correspond, he addressed her formally as ‘Mrs. Wadia’.
Part of the identity is the religious melange. Jinnah was a Shi’ite Muslim who married a Parsi - Zoroastrian Persians who fled Islam to settle in India. Yet he refused to speak again to his daughter Dina when she married a Parsi, albeit one of part-Irish descent and hence a Christian convert.
Tell me about the trust he broke of his friend Sir Dinshaw Petit by marrying his daughter, who should have been like a daughter to him?
``As for the other post- Gandhi reacted pretty badly to his son`s conversion so much so ``
and how did Jinnah react to his daughters marriage to a Parsi converted to Christianity?
The relationship was marred by the fact that Dina wanted to marry a Parsi-born Christian, Neville Wadia. Jinnah tried to dissuade her, just like Sir Dinshaw had tried to influence his daughter many years ago, but to no avail. Justice Chagla recalls, ” Jinnah, in his usual imperious manner, told her that there were millions of Muslim boys in India, and she could have anyone she chose. Then the young lady…replied: ‘Father, there were millions of Muslim girls in India. Why did you not marry one of them?’
The relationship became formal after she married. They did correspond, he addressed her formally as ‘Mrs. Wadia’.
Part of the identity is the religious melange. Jinnah was a Shi’ite Muslim who married a Parsi - Zoroastrian Persians who fled Islam to settle in India. Yet he refused to speak again to his daughter Dina when she married a Parsi, albeit one of part-Irish descent and hence a Christian convert.
Tell me about the trust he broke of his friend Sir Dinshaw Petit by marrying his daughter, who should have been like a daughter to him?
#456 Posted by Netizen on August 20, 2005 5:06:08 pm
Re: # 430 Manto:
As I underatand from you by calling Native Kaffir, Gandhi becomes racist.
As per my knowledge isn`t this the word used by Mohd. to describe non-believers. What does that make Mohd?
So let us agree and call both, Gandhi and Mohd as racist.
As I underatand from you by calling Native Kaffir, Gandhi becomes racist.
As per my knowledge isn`t this the word used by Mohd. to describe non-believers. What does that make Mohd?
So let us agree and call both, Gandhi and Mohd as racist.
#454 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 3:15:02 pm
Re: # 453
OK, Gujju, I hear you.
But you neglected to acknowledge your recent marriage where you changed your last name to Aslam. :) I hope you are very happy, young man. You made the right decision.
Have a good night. :)
OK, Gujju, I hear you.
But you neglected to acknowledge your recent marriage where you changed your last name to Aslam. :) I hope you are very happy, young man. You made the right decision.
Have a good night. :)
#453 Posted by Aslam777 on August 20, 2005 3:05:54 pm
Salim...
What gives you the impression that I am angry with the cuckolded fool and his wife ? They are comical really . Unintentionally funny. Full marks for devotion to the cause but zilch for logic and credibility.
What gives you the impression that I am angry with the cuckolded fool and his wife ? They are comical really . Unintentionally funny. Full marks for devotion to the cause but zilch for logic and credibility.
#452 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 2:49:26 pm
Re: # 450
Arey Gujju, don`t be so angry. :{
Forget about Jinnah and Gandhi for a minute.
Aslam 777,
Please accept my congratualtions, mubarakbad, and badhai on your recent wedding. By the way, what prompted you to change your last name. In our culture, usually it is the girl who changes her name to her husband`s! Anyway, Aslam sounds good.
Cheers :)
Arey Gujju, don`t be so angry. :{
Forget about Jinnah and Gandhi for a minute.
Aslam 777,
Please accept my congratualtions, mubarakbad, and badhai on your recent wedding. By the way, what prompted you to change your last name. In our culture, usually it is the girl who changes her name to her husband`s! Anyway, Aslam sounds good.
Cheers :)
#451 Posted by anil on August 20, 2005 2:44:58 pm
Yasser & Aisha (447 & 448):
I must compliment two of you to make me think on this aspect Gandhi - Jinnah debate.
Although I am disappointed with the results of my search on Jinnah`s contacts, friends with Africa, Africans, Blacks Africans, Americans, Freed slaves in Liverpool, England, English working class in Lambeth, England, or textile mill workers of the time in Huddersfield, Yorkshire, and Manchester. Given the leading law figure in his time in England, he should have clients who probably became his friends later.
I find just no information whatsoever. Given the affluence and population of Ismailies in Africa, it should be safe to assume that he must have contacts and clients from Africa while he was practicing in England as well. As in those many leagal cases were referred to England.
Do you have any material in your library or collection or access to any material on Jinnah and Africa, Africans, Blacks, Black Americans, working class of Lambeth, Huddersfield, and Manchester, England? I am willing to buy this valuable collection for my personal library.
Do you know if Jinnah ever visited Africa?
Thanks
Anil Kapuria
I must compliment two of you to make me think on this aspect Gandhi - Jinnah debate.
Although I am disappointed with the results of my search on Jinnah`s contacts, friends with Africa, Africans, Blacks Africans, Americans, Freed slaves in Liverpool, England, English working class in Lambeth, England, or textile mill workers of the time in Huddersfield, Yorkshire, and Manchester. Given the leading law figure in his time in England, he should have clients who probably became his friends later.
I find just no information whatsoever. Given the affluence and population of Ismailies in Africa, it should be safe to assume that he must have contacts and clients from Africa while he was practicing in England as well. As in those many leagal cases were referred to England.
Do you have any material in your library or collection or access to any material on Jinnah and Africa, Africans, Blacks, Black Americans, working class of Lambeth, Huddersfield, and Manchester, England? I am willing to buy this valuable collection for my personal library.
Do you know if Jinnah ever visited Africa?
Thanks
Anil Kapuria
#450 Posted by Aslam777 on August 20, 2005 2:34:46 pm
#448...
Gosh...Jinnah is a now a hunk because he won an internet poll...WoW.
Internet polls are not exactly 1 man 1 vote you know...for all we know atleast 30% of the votes in favor of Jinnah were entered by your cuckolded fool of a husband Hamdani himself , and another 25% by yourself. One only wonders at the amount of time spent by you two in manually entering each vote (deleting the cookies after each vote every time to fool bbc.com ......smarter people would probably use a java script for repetitive voting , as done in American
Idol..)
Anyway....please go on , continue posting and exposing your stupidity.
Gosh...Jinnah is a now a hunk because he won an internet poll...WoW.
Internet polls are not exactly 1 man 1 vote you know...for all we know atleast 30% of the votes in favor of Jinnah were entered by your cuckolded fool of a husband Hamdani himself , and another 25% by yourself. One only wonders at the amount of time spent by you two in manually entering each vote (deleting the cookies after each vote every time to fool bbc.com ......smarter people would probably use a java script for repetitive voting , as done in American
Idol..)
Anyway....please go on , continue posting and exposing your stupidity.
#449 Posted by rsridhar on August 20, 2005 2:30:39 pm
re:#447 by Mantolives
Manto Miyan,
The way u are defending Jinnah, u could have been his illegitimate son! You are just pathetic. You have lost all sense of proportions. Every leader has his pluses and minuses. Jinnah was no angel.
Let us all face it. Jinnah founded a moth-eaten Pakistan that became even more moth-eaten after 1972 and is now a jehadi nation with no respect in the world. I am sure Jinnah would not have liked Pak to have suffered this fate. So, why did he found Pak? The man is no there to answer that question. Men like u can only speculate.
You have still not answered the question: why did Jinnah call for Direct Action Day knowing fully well it would lead to bloodshed? The recently disclosed papers detailing the communication between him and Churchill is an eyeopener.
Sridhar
Manto Miyan,
The way u are defending Jinnah, u could have been his illegitimate son! You are just pathetic. You have lost all sense of proportions. Every leader has his pluses and minuses. Jinnah was no angel.
Let us all face it. Jinnah founded a moth-eaten Pakistan that became even more moth-eaten after 1972 and is now a jehadi nation with no respect in the world. I am sure Jinnah would not have liked Pak to have suffered this fate. So, why did he found Pak? The man is no there to answer that question. Men like u can only speculate.
You have still not answered the question: why did Jinnah call for Direct Action Day knowing fully well it would lead to bloodshed? The recently disclosed papers detailing the communication between him and Churchill is an eyeopener.
Sridhar
#448 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on August 20, 2005 2:05:47 pm
Ranjit:
Seems to me, in the past three months you were cooped up in a cave while the world discovered - rather rediscovered- the great man that Jinnah was. All you had to do was pick up an Indian paper or turn on any Indian channel. Perhaps you were too busy watching Govinda, or Kum Kum.
As for your comment: ``Hold a poll in the west or even in muslim countries and ask them about Gandhi and Jinnah. I will bet Jinnah has zero name recognition. ``
FYI on BBC`s Poll for South Asia`s greatest ever leader
Who do you consider to be the most important leader in South Asia in modern times?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4100961.stm
Muhammad Ali Jinnah
39%
Mahatma Gandhi
36%
335422 Votes Cast
Given your 1 billion population and IT revolution, Its pretty difficult to come up with an explanation that supports your bigoted state-induced notions.
Aisha Sarwari
Seems to me, in the past three months you were cooped up in a cave while the world discovered - rather rediscovered- the great man that Jinnah was. All you had to do was pick up an Indian paper or turn on any Indian channel. Perhaps you were too busy watching Govinda, or Kum Kum.
As for your comment: ``Hold a poll in the west or even in muslim countries and ask them about Gandhi and Jinnah. I will bet Jinnah has zero name recognition. ``
FYI on BBC`s Poll for South Asia`s greatest ever leader
Who do you consider to be the most important leader in South Asia in modern times?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4100961.stm
Muhammad Ali Jinnah
39%
Mahatma Gandhi
36%
335422 Votes Cast
Given your 1 billion population and IT revolution, Its pretty difficult to come up with an explanation that supports your bigoted state-induced notions.
Aisha Sarwari
#447 Posted by MantoLives on August 20, 2005 1:32:29 pm
Re: # 446
I am afraid you are no one to dictate anything to us. To me Jinnah was a much greater leader than Gandhi ever could be.
And no - not everyone had Gandhi`s views on black people... it is just apologetic nonsense. Please feel free to produce any similar pieces of writing from any of the Indian leaders of that era... atleast major ones. As for Jinnah`s zero-recognition- what does that prove that Gandhi was not racist or casteist?
Refer to Hamidm`s 360 for a humorous but very accurate account of why the west prefers Gandhi over Jinnah...
I am afraid you are no one to dictate anything to us. To me Jinnah was a much greater leader than Gandhi ever could be.
And no - not everyone had Gandhi`s views on black people... it is just apologetic nonsense. Please feel free to produce any similar pieces of writing from any of the Indian leaders of that era... atleast major ones. As for Jinnah`s zero-recognition- what does that prove that Gandhi was not racist or casteist?
Refer to Hamidm`s 360 for a humorous but very accurate account of why the west prefers Gandhi over Jinnah...
#446 Posted by Ranjit on August 20, 2005 12:24:42 pm
Mr and Mrs. Manto,
I am no fan of Gandhi because he betrayed hindus towards the end. However, all said and done, he was one of us and we will vigorously defend him from muslims and Pakistanis like you.
There is no way in hell that Jinnah could even come close to Gandhi in greatness. Gandhi`s stature, his accomplishments and his impact on the whole world is unmatched. Gandhi was a global figure. Jinnah is just a parochial, muslim, desi leader. No one in the world remembers Jinnah. Hold a poll in the west or even in muslim countries and ask them about Gandhi and Jinnah. I will bet Jinnah has zero name recognition. You can compare Jinnah with Advani or Bal Thackrey at most, but dont try to go beyond that level.
As far as Gandhi`s earlier views are concerned, everyone had racist views at that time (late 1800s). It was normal because no one believed in racial equality in those days. Scientists would argue and research whether whites were superior to other races. So it was not a settled issue that all races were equal. I am sure Jinnah had similar views becuase that was the norm.
Over time, the world started changing. Here Gandhi took a lead. He changed his views and became an advocate of racial equality. At least Gandhi`s change was positive. Jinnah`s change was negative as he went to the dark side. He went from being a secular leader to a ultra-communal leader who caused mass murder and destruction in the subcontinent.
I am no fan of Gandhi because he betrayed hindus towards the end. However, all said and done, he was one of us and we will vigorously defend him from muslims and Pakistanis like you.
There is no way in hell that Jinnah could even come close to Gandhi in greatness. Gandhi`s stature, his accomplishments and his impact on the whole world is unmatched. Gandhi was a global figure. Jinnah is just a parochial, muslim, desi leader. No one in the world remembers Jinnah. Hold a poll in the west or even in muslim countries and ask them about Gandhi and Jinnah. I will bet Jinnah has zero name recognition. You can compare Jinnah with Advani or Bal Thackrey at most, but dont try to go beyond that level.
As far as Gandhi`s earlier views are concerned, everyone had racist views at that time (late 1800s). It was normal because no one believed in racial equality in those days. Scientists would argue and research whether whites were superior to other races. So it was not a settled issue that all races were equal. I am sure Jinnah had similar views becuase that was the norm.
Over time, the world started changing. Here Gandhi took a lead. He changed his views and became an advocate of racial equality. At least Gandhi`s change was positive. Jinnah`s change was negative as he went to the dark side. He went from being a secular leader to a ultra-communal leader who caused mass murder and destruction in the subcontinent.
#445 Posted by ahmedmadani on August 20, 2005 12:07:14 pm
Re: # 443
Good comments and understand.
I am hoping to get music from Mr.Haimau and advice from Dr Shankar.
Mr.Salim I hope you are not under35 as I kind of distrust as generally overhyped, mean and arrogent age, lazy people, liberal, other than that they are fine
Good wishes for fading August05.
ahmedmadani2048@yahoo.com
Good comments and understand.
I am hoping to get music from Mr.Haimau and advice from Dr Shankar.
Mr.Salim I hope you are not under35 as I kind of distrust as generally overhyped, mean and arrogent age, lazy people, liberal, other than that they are fine
Good wishes for fading August05.
ahmedmadani2048@yahoo.com
#444 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 11:57:55 am
Re: # 443
Dillidost,
The real mama of Chowk is Saima Shah. She is the sister of Safwan Shah, who started Chowk along with Umair Khan and Radkhika Nagpal. Saima Shah is in Karachi. Our good friend Umar Quraishi has been on their trail. That is why they deleted his messages. Pretty soon, everything will be clear.
I might break my vow of self-imposed exile and talk to you on UP. :{
Take care.
Dillidost,
The real mama of Chowk is Saima Shah. She is the sister of Safwan Shah, who started Chowk along with Umair Khan and Radkhika Nagpal. Saima Shah is in Karachi. Our good friend Umar Quraishi has been on their trail. That is why they deleted his messages. Pretty soon, everything will be clear.
I might break my vow of self-imposed exile and talk to you on UP. :{
Take care.
#443 Posted by delhiwala on August 20, 2005 11:48:42 am
Re: # 441
Only one Sikh Name(Ginni Dhindsa), everybody else is a hindu or muslim,
once again Sikhs get short end of the stick.
Okay, Chowk-Ke-Maalik:
Jarra ye batao, ke aap universal standard kyon nahee ekhtayar kar lete.
You guys did a great job in making a first website for DESIs and it is actually pretty good. Why are you letting it go down the drain, yaar?
Including myself.
If you need any management tips or ideas, Let me know.
Also, since I joined Chowk, all of a sudden first time in my life, Security and Compliance group at work is calling me regarding imposters dialing in at my work asking some stupid, dumb questions. (in this case someone called in at my work pretending to be me and asked for a quote for a security that is available on cnn.com, anyways). What a jerk.
I am not sure if that is related with some chowki or somewhere else, but it really pissed me off. I decided to not take action against this person because why ruin someones life.
Only one Sikh Name(Ginni Dhindsa), everybody else is a hindu or muslim,
once again Sikhs get short end of the stick.
Okay, Chowk-Ke-Maalik:
Jarra ye batao, ke aap universal standard kyon nahee ekhtayar kar lete.
You guys did a great job in making a first website for DESIs and it is actually pretty good. Why are you letting it go down the drain, yaar?
Including myself.
If you need any management tips or ideas, Let me know.
Also, since I joined Chowk, all of a sudden first time in my life, Security and Compliance group at work is calling me regarding imposters dialing in at my work asking some stupid, dumb questions. (in this case someone called in at my work pretending to be me and asked for a quote for a security that is available on cnn.com, anyways). What a jerk.
I am not sure if that is related with some chowki or somewhere else, but it really pissed me off. I decided to not take action against this person because why ruin someones life.
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