Ayodhya: The Aftermath of the Terrorist Attack

Masanumuthu, I wish what you said was true. But its not. The people who say racust things on this forum and others are not ``old``. In fact ``old`` people would be less likely to use foul and abusive language on a forum.

Kaalchakra, I pointed to some samples of racist and sadistic interactions on this forum. Rather than acting like a good human being and condemning the CLEARLY racist posts and people, you turn around and try to lecture ME!! That`s what I mean! There have been so many racist posts and attitudes displayed on this forum, but YOUR concern is NOT to raise your voice against them and say that`s WRONG, but to LECTURE DALITS!! You`re part of the problem, not the solution!! You`re the one generalising! I only spoke about the attitudes of RACIST caste-Hindus, not about the attitudes of the NOn-racist. It is also racist to excuse and minimise the hateful behaviour of racists and lecture their victims instead!!

Jang, Ambedkarites know quite well that the Indian intellgensia excludes Dalits as equals. As for whether they are ``pissed`` about this - they recognize the racism inherent in the exclusion. Any good human being should recognize that. Dr. Ambedkar was the only sane voice around in a world full of communal Savarkars and Jinnahs and passive-aggressive casteists like Gandhi. He was excluded then. He is excluded now. That`s racism in action.

As for your comments on what ``pisses off hard-core neo-Buddhists`` - only what should ``piss off`` anybody with a conscience - racism. I`m talking about the jealous hijacking of Buddhism by caste-Hindus - who always shout and scream that Ambedkar`s Buddhism is ``wrong`` and that Buddhism is ``derived`` from Hinduism. THAT`S what I was talking about. I`m not talking about the fate of the movement or anything like that - if anything, with the worldwide trend among the educated towards Buddhism, it will be quite safe as long as education of Dalits is safe. Dr. Ambedkar`s book is there for all Dalits who want to read it. I understand that Buddhism is very infuriating to folks whose identities rest of some cosy chat someone had with ``God`` once, but sorry - Buddhism`s reputation is well-established, doing quite well.

Root of Islamist radicalism

by Balbir Punj

The London underground explosions on July 21 were not as lethal as the ones which took place a fortnight earlier. However, they registered a greater psychological and diplomatic impact. These bomb blasts were followed by the shooting of a 27-year-old innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menzes. He was being followed from his home and pursued in a tube train by plain clothes policemen who mistook him for a suicide bomber. London metropolitan police commissioner Ian Blair has termed the present times as `fantastically difficult`. He has admitted that police all over Britain has adopted the policy of shooting suspected suicide bombers in their head. Shooting in the chest is is not preferred `because that is where the bomb is likely to be`.

Londoners who braved 7/7, flaunted banners like `One city, one world`, `London, Fallujah, no more bombs` and `We are not afraid` at a memorial service for the victims at Victoria Embankment Gardens on July 11. The ceremony was attended by Mayor Ken Livingstone, Cultural Secretary Tessa Jowell and Sebastian Coe. But now the British have adopted a `stoic` attitude.

The bomb attacks were a shot in the arm for England`s bicycle industry. In fact, according to a CNN report, many Londoners are exploring bicycles as a substitute for the tube as a mode of travel in the metropolis. It is significant that barring the burning of a mosque in Leeds, there was practically no backlash in the UK as against attacks on six mosques in Auckland (New Zealand) after a 26-year-old Kiwi, Marie Mather, residing in London was killed in the underground blasts.

A nervous Pakistan President, General Pervez Musharraf, went live on PTV after the news of 21/7 spread like wild fire. That three of the four suicide bombers responsible for 7/7 were British nationals of Pakistani origin and had visited a Pakistani seminary till last year, was enough for Mr Musharraf to launch a damage-control exercise.

The General observed that the Muslim community as a whole was facing opprobrium because of such acts of terror and that it was an erroneous assumption on the part of the extremists that they would succeed in their war against the free world. He was correct in saying that the ummah, or the global Islamic community, is in a miserable state. Despite controlling 70 per cent of the world`s energy resources and 40 per cent of its wealth, the condition of the ummah is deteriorating.

According to him, this was due to the overwhelming insistence on Deen-i-talim (religious education) while the developed countries focused on scientific education. However, no less than 10 times during his speech he talked of the ummah and Pakistan`s significant position within it. He also proposed a supreme religious affairs cell in OIC, that promotes Muslim solidarity, in economic, social, and political affairs. The task of the supreme religious affairs cell would be to interpret `true Islam` for Muslim countries!

Mr Musharraf ended up arguing against himself! Interpreting `true Islam` seems to be the principle, if not the only concern, of the ummah. The latter would have been better off if human genome project, space research, water conservation, operation research management, gender equality, modern education for all, were its main concerns, rather than `true Islam`.

How correct was BR Ambedkar when he observed in Thoughts on Pakistan (1940): ``None of the secular categories of life have any place in the politics of the Muslim community and if they do find a place because they are irrepressible, they are subordinated to one and the only governing principle of the Muslim political universe, namely, religion.`` (Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Vol 8, pp 233-34)!

Hinduism believes in the principle, ``Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools of thought contend.`` But no interpretation of Hinduism ever demands launching a jihad against non-Hindus of the world or setting up a Hindu equivalent of Nizam-e-Mustafa. I am sure the global civil society only desires peaceful conduct from Muslims, regardless of the nature of Islam. There are four mazahib or schools of Islamic law called Hanafi, Shafii, Hanbali and Malaki named after four founders Abu Hanifa, Abu Abdullah, Mohammad bin Idris, Ahmad bin Hanbal respectively. The texts containing Islamic law were compiled in the 8th and 9th centuries.

One of the four schools mentioned above is followed by Muslims in different countries. If Islam is based on the Quran, which is considered the voice of Allah, what is the utility of these four types of interpretations? Common sense dictates that out of these, only one would be true. To say that more than one of these four interpretations are true will go against the spirit of Islam. Even as we resign ourselves to this contradiction, civil society cannot digest Dar-ul-Uloom, Deoband`s fatwa on rape victim Imrana.

The non-Muslim world has adopted a politically correct but factually wrong approach to `Islamic terrorism`. They say that Islam is essentially peaceful, only a few errant Muslims are giving it a wrong and lethal interpretation. But what if it is the other way round? An individual Muslim can be as good or as bad as any of his non-Muslim counterpart. He could be talented, pious, generous, miserly, a cheat or a criminal. He too is endowed with the same feelings and emotions of loves and hatred. The problem begins when he starts to kill and destroy on the basis of religion, that is to say, Islam. It is only then that one starts to question if the problem is with the tenets of Islam or individual Muslims?

Kishori Sharan Lal, an expert on medieval Indian history, writes, ``Of the 6236 ayats in the Quran, about 3,900 are directly or indirectly related to kafirs, mushriks, munkirs, munafiqs or non-believers in Allah and his Prophet. Broadly speaking these 3,900 ayats fall into two categories - those relating to Muslims who for their faith will be rewarded in this as well as the world hereafter, and those relating to kafirs or non-believers who are punished in this world and are destined to go to Hell after death.`` (Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Voice of India, p 4-5).

Mr Musharraf said it was wrong to link London blasts with Pakistan just because one suicide bomber called Germaine Lindsay was a Jamaican. However, Germaine`s mother Maryam McLeod had converted to Islam. Lindsay followed her example and became Muslim. So devout is Ms McLeod that she appeared in complete Hizb on an interview conducted by CNN in Grenada. But it did seem that there was something more than her attire, which was out of sync with the carefree environment of the Caribbeans.

She was shocked to find that her exceedingly affectionate son could blow himself up to kill innocent people. But does this not strengthen our suspicion even more? Germaine, as an individual, might have been lovable and innocent but his sincerity to his faith impelled him to die even while killing others. His protest was different from the resentment that is usually seen among the coloured against the Whites commonly among South Africans or Americans. His was a true protest of momins against kafirs. The question is whether he would have done the same thing had he been a Christian?

The explosions at Sharm-el-Sheikh in Egypt too, need to be pondered. Egypt is the heartland of Arab and Islamic culture, and a much coveted place by Islamic radicals for the next Islamic revolution. Such voices had become strident in the late 1970s during the regime of President Anwar Sadat, who was eventually assassinated by Islamist radicals in 1981.

The Hosni Mubarak government too, does not tolerate extremists. The curriculum at Al-Azhar University that is followed throughout Egypt is controlled by the country`s government. It decides the choice of Imams which means exclusion of the radicals. But Egypt is the greatest source of Islamic scholarship in the Arab world. In fact, Islamists hate that more than its Islamic identity Egypt espouses its Pharaoic and Greco-Roman past. If radical Muslims are intolerant of their own pre-Islamic past, can they be tolerant of contemporary non-Muslims?

(The writer, a Rajya Sabha MP and Convener of BJP`s think-tank can be contacted at bpunj@email.com)

googly,

``They can`t STAND the fact that Dr. Ambedkar was as phenomenally erudite as he was, that he rejected Hinduism after familiarising himself with all its apologists ever, and adopted Buddhism. ``

I had a different impression. Ambedkarites are really pissed that rest of the indian intellegensia gives little more than lip-service to ambedkar as an intelluctual. Even the neo-buddhist movement is kind of in a rut at best, hardly a nicely growing tree, and this pisses of the hard-core neo-buddhist intellectuals more...with more melting pot that masanamuthu alluded, this movement is not likely to get +ve or -ve energy it would need.

just my observations based on talking with them in person.

googlymoogly

Masanamuthu is suggesting that not every Hindu here is a ``RACIST CASTEIST HINDU`` (any more than every Muslim or every Christian on Chowk is), but you are arguing (quite vehemently) that every liberal Hindu is (unusually) RACIST CASTEIST, and that ``every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs.``

Nobody likes to be called a fake. But are you levelling genuine charges?

Re: # 84:

googlymoogly:

I agree with most of what you said.. But if we get the data on the age groups of the ``RACIST CASTEIST HINDUS`` even here in this forum, I think we`d find they are mostly older generation folks, who have grown up with prejudices on the intellectual/other capabilities of others especially the ``lower castes/ Dalits``. There is marked improvement in the younger generation (say less than 30-35).. And that`s a good sign.

I like the way ``liberal`` Hindus deflect the casteism accusations WHILE STILL BEING CASTEIST. Of course they are ALL against casteism (snicker snicker), BUT

1. Every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs. Imagine saying the same thing about African Americans in the US. You`d immediately be identified as far-right KKK, a RACIST. But Indians routinely say such things about and TO Dalits and BCs - not just on forums but teachers say it to students in classrooms, including in the IITs. That`s right - it is still OK AND ACCEPTABLE to harrass and demean people like this among Indians. The average caste-Hindu is MORE RACIST than the average American redneck, who would at least think 5 times before saying these things to others. This racism IS NOT ACCEPTABLE in the US, but it IS acceptable among the most ``educated`` caste Hindus. India is an apartheid state and this is approved of by the average caste Hindu.

2. Every post contains dehumanizing and racist caste slurs about excrement, the occupations RACIST CASTE HINDUS FORCED DALITS INTO. Yes, that`s how much hatred caste Hindus carry in their hearts - a hatred that makes them want to torture people with excrement. That`s the contents of the caste Hindu head - FANTASIES OF TORTURE. This is what their religion teaches them. Hatred. Deal with anger by torturing people in the most medieval and hateful ways - excrement, rape, violence. This is how much rage and hatred these racist sickos carry. AND IN THE NEXT SENTENCE THEY CLAIM TO BE AGAINST CASTEISM!!! That`s the ``liberal`` caste Hindu. I`m liberal, and against caste, but I will hurl threats of torture and racist caste-slurs at any Dalit or BC who disagrees with me.

This is how racist caste Hindus have maintained an apartheid state for centuries. By dehumanizing and terrorising people at every turn, reducing them to chattel, treating them like animals. The racist caste-slurs are not ``just words`` mind you. They are a tool of hatred and control. Imagine a Dalit child going to a school and being threatened with such hateful language, such threats, such slurs JUST FOR ASSERTING HERSELF AND SPEAKING HER MIND.

This is how these caste-Hindu sickos maintain their bloodstained, gory privileges. They are daily terrorists.

3. The repeated LIE that ``only uneducated people`` and ``villagers`` and ``BCs`` oppress Dalits. LIES. Look at the behaviour of educated people on this forum - hell ANY forum. The most ``liberal`` caste Hindu will turn into an abusive racist goon with a filthy mouth the minute a Dalit speaks her/his mind. Dalit only has to mention the racism routinely faced by Dalits at all levels of society, its sanction in the shastras, the daily experience and practice of racist hatred in Indian society. That`s ALL it takes for caste-Hindus to turn into raving, violent, hateful, foul-mouthed, enraged bullies.

First they will take away your voice by calling it FAKE. Isn`t that the classic abuser`s ploy? You keep hitting someone and when they cry out in pain, you accuse them of pretending. Yup, that`s a sure sign of a SADIST mindset and SADISM is only ONE among the many caste-Hindu pathologies. Caste-Hindus are mentally diseased people because of the horrific oppression and hatred that their egoes are sustained by. So - first thing they will do is say `YOU ARE NOT A DALIT`. At the same time using racist caste slurs!! But that`s exactly how Dalits are oppressed! Racist caste Hindus may even call you a ``MULLAH``. Yup, you could be a Buddhist, or a Christian, or an atheist, but caste-Hindus will call you a MUSLIM, because to their teeny-weeny racist minds, that is a way ofdehumanizing you and rendering your VOICE invalid.

Its a way of taking away a person`s voice - invalidating the person. This is how the sadistic caste-Hindu mind functions to bully Dalits who speak their mind.

4. The other thing they do is BASH AND DERIDE EVERY DALIT INTELLECTUAL EVER. This is another racist and hateful caste-Hindu ploy. A way of dehumanizing and belittling people. This is the same hatred that denied Dalits the RIGHT TO READ AND LEARN for centuries. Now it resurfaces by calling people `ILLITERATE`` AND ``WRONG``, dismissing their knowledge and education.

You`ll see it when racist caste-Hindus try to tell Ambedkarite Buddhists ``YOU DON`T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM``. Riiiiight - racist caste-Hindus, who themselves know so little about Buddhism that they think it is the same thing as Hinduism, DELIGHT in assuming the priestly function and telling Ambedkarite Buddhists ``YOUR BUDDHISM IS WRONG. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT BUDDHISM``. They can`t STAND the fact that Dr. Ambedkar was as phenomenally erudite as he was, that he rejected Hinduism after familiarising himself with all its apologists ever, and adopted Buddhism. They have to diminish that, sneer at it, deride it - RACISM IN ACTION. Not even Dr. Ambedkar is spared!! dalits must defer to racist caste-Hindus even on Buddhism!!

Racist caste-Hindus cannot stand Dalit autonomy on matters of religion and knowledge. It strikes at the heart of their deep-rooted racist hatred.

THE IDEA THAT ``LIBERAL`` AND ``EDUCATED`` CASTE-HINDUS ARE NOT RACIST HAS TO BE EXPOSED. They sustain racism and casteism intellectually, behaviourally, attitudinally.

#82 ajeya is not yet mature apparently ..he does salute to the proud flag-pole, the one with the tri-color (and may be old glory as well) ;-)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

salim i know what i am proud of....even in my dreams ;-)
i am trying to understand what makes ajeya so proud..

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#75 what i mean is what greatness or benefit has india achieved for its peoples that you can be proud of as a contribution of ``your`` people?

Re #76

Very good point regarding good point of #76 which is good retort to #75 which was concerning #72, which itself was a reply to #70. Very confusing discussion for Kaka. :)

Kaka remember going to see Dr. Raka for big chief Chaka (as in Shaka Zulu), when latter suffering from acute constipation. It go something like this:

Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Chief no shit!
Dr. Raka: Here, take this. Ask the Chief to drink one table spoon.
Next Day
Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Chief no shit!
Dr. Raka: OK, ask him to drink two table spoons.
Next Day
Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Chief no shit!
Dr. Raka: OK, ask him to drink the whole damn bottle.
Next Day
Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Shit, no Chief!

Re: # 76

good point.

RE: #75 by jang

Yes, I do. In spite of rampant illiteracy and poverty, they have the inherent humanity to treat Muslims with much more tolerance than Muslims have shown towards them over the centuries. Much more tolerance than the ``sophisticated`` Westerners, who, in spite of Gulf oil, will pulverize you Muslims if you kill just a few more of them.

Do you think the British will let Muslims live in peace if, for example, the 52 dead were to become 520? They would kick ALL of you out.

So be thankful for the greatness of heart of our people.

ajeya,

what i mean is, do you see amazing greatness in ``your`` people?

Re:#73 by kaalchakra

Jang Bahadur? Give me a clue. Is this a Chowk thing?