Ayodhya: The Aftermath of the Terrorist Attack

Masanumuthu, I wish what you said was true. But its not. The people who say racust things on this forum and others are not ``old``. In fact ``old`` people would be less likely to use foul and abusive language on a forum.

Kaalchakra, I pointed to some samples of racist and sadistic interactions on this forum. Rather than acting like a good human being and condemning the CLEARLY racist posts and people, you turn around and try to lecture ME!! That`s what I mean! There have been so many racist posts and attitudes displayed on this forum, but YOUR concern is NOT to raise your voice against them and say that`s WRONG, but to LECTURE DALITS!! You`re part of the problem, not the solution!! You`re the one generalising! I only spoke about the attitudes of RACIST caste-Hindus, not about the attitudes of the NOn-racist. It is also racist to excuse and minimise the hateful behaviour of racists and lecture their victims instead!!

Jang, Ambedkarites know quite well that the Indian intellgensia excludes Dalits as equals. As for whether they are ``pissed`` about this - they recognize the racism inherent in the exclusion. Any good human being should recognize that. Dr. Ambedkar was the only sane voice around in a world full of communal Savarkars and Jinnahs and passive-aggressive casteists like Gandhi. He was excluded then. He is excluded now. That`s racism in action.

As for your comments on what ``pisses off hard-core neo-Buddhists`` - only what should ``piss off`` anybody with a conscience - racism. I`m talking about the jealous hijacking of Buddhism by caste-Hindus - who always shout and scream that Ambedkar`s Buddhism is ``wrong`` and that Buddhism is ``derived`` from Hinduism. THAT`S what I was talking about. I`m not talking about the fate of the movement or anything like that - if anything, with the worldwide trend among the educated towards Buddhism, it will be quite safe as long as education of Dalits is safe. Dr. Ambedkar`s book is there for all Dalits who want to read it. I understand that Buddhism is very infuriating to folks whose identities rest of some cosy chat someone had with ``God`` once, but sorry - Buddhism`s reputation is well-established, doing quite well.

Root of Islamist radicalism

by Balbir Punj

The London underground explosions on July 21 were not as lethal as the ones which took place a fortnight earlier. However, they registered a greater psychological and diplomatic impact. These bomb blasts were followed by the shooting of a 27-year-old innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menzes. He was being followed from his home and pursued in a tube train by plain clothes policemen who mistook him for a suicide bomber. London metropolitan police commissioner Ian Blair has termed the present times as `fantastically difficult`. He has admitted that police all over Britain has adopted the policy of shooting suspected suicide bombers in their head. Shooting in the chest is is not preferred `because that is where the bomb is likely to be`.

Londoners who braved 7/7, flaunted banners like `One city, one world`, `London, Fallujah, no more bombs` and `We are not afraid` at a memorial service for the victims at Victoria Embankment Gardens on July 11. The ceremony was attended by Mayor Ken Livingstone, Cultural Secretary Tessa Jowell and Sebastian Coe. But now the British have adopted a `stoic` attitude.

The bomb attacks were a shot in the arm for England`s bicycle industry. In fact, according to a CNN report, many Londoners are exploring bicycles as a substitute for the tube as a mode of travel in the metropolis. It is significant that barring the burning of a mosque in Leeds, there was practically no backlash in the UK as against attacks on six mosques in Auckland (New Zealand) after a 26-year-old Kiwi, Marie Mather, residing in London was killed in the underground blasts.

A nervous Pakistan President, General Pervez Musharraf, went live on PTV after the news of 21/7 spread like wild fire. That three of the four suicide bombers responsible for 7/7 were British nationals of Pakistani origin and had visited a Pakistani seminary till last year, was enough for Mr Musharraf to launch a damage-control exercise.

The General observed that the Muslim community as a whole was facing opprobrium because of such acts of terror and that it was an erroneous assumption on the part of the extremists that they would succeed in their war against the free world. He was correct in saying that the ummah, or the global Islamic community, is in a miserable state. Despite controlling 70 per cent of the world`s energy resources and 40 per cent of its wealth, the condition of the ummah is deteriorating.

According to him, this was due to the overwhelming insistence on Deen-i-talim (religious education) while the developed countries focused on scientific education. However, no less than 10 times during his speech he talked of the ummah and Pakistan`s significant position within it. He also proposed a supreme religious affairs cell in OIC, that promotes Muslim solidarity, in economic, social, and political affairs. The task of the supreme religious affairs cell would be to interpret `true Islam` for Muslim countries!

Mr Musharraf ended up arguing against himself! Interpreting `true Islam` seems to be the principle, if not the only concern, of the ummah. The latter would have been better off if human genome project, space research, water conservation, operation research management, gender equality, modern education for all, were its main concerns, rather than `true Islam`.

How correct was BR Ambedkar when he observed in Thoughts on Pakistan (1940): ``None of the secular categories of life have any place in the politics of the Muslim community and if they do find a place because they are irrepressible, they are subordinated to one and the only governing principle of the Muslim political universe, namely, religion.`` (Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Vol 8, pp 233-34)!

Hinduism believes in the principle, ``Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools of thought contend.`` But no interpretation of Hinduism ever demands launching a jihad against non-Hindus of the world or setting up a Hindu equivalent of Nizam-e-Mustafa. I am sure the global civil society only desires peaceful conduct from Muslims, regardless of the nature of Islam. There are four mazahib or schools of Islamic law called Hanafi, Shafii, Hanbali and Malaki named after four founders Abu Hanifa, Abu Abdullah, Mohammad bin Idris, Ahmad bin Hanbal respectively. The texts containing Islamic law were compiled in the 8th and 9th centuries.

One of the four schools mentioned above is followed by Muslims in different countries. If Islam is based on the Quran, which is considered the voice of Allah, what is the utility of these four types of interpretations? Common sense dictates that out of these, only one would be true. To say that more than one of these four interpretations are true will go against the spirit of Islam. Even as we resign ourselves to this contradiction, civil society cannot digest Dar-ul-Uloom, Deoband`s fatwa on rape victim Imrana.

The non-Muslim world has adopted a politically correct but factually wrong approach to `Islamic terrorism`. They say that Islam is essentially peaceful, only a few errant Muslims are giving it a wrong and lethal interpretation. But what if it is the other way round? An individual Muslim can be as good or as bad as any of his non-Muslim counterpart. He could be talented, pious, generous, miserly, a cheat or a criminal. He too is endowed with the same feelings and emotions of loves and hatred. The problem begins when he starts to kill and destroy on the basis of religion, that is to say, Islam. It is only then that one starts to question if the problem is with the tenets of Islam or individual Muslims?

Kishori Sharan Lal, an expert on medieval Indian history, writes, ``Of the 6236 ayats in the Quran, about 3,900 are directly or indirectly related to kafirs, mushriks, munkirs, munafiqs or non-believers in Allah and his Prophet. Broadly speaking these 3,900 ayats fall into two categories - those relating to Muslims who for their faith will be rewarded in this as well as the world hereafter, and those relating to kafirs or non-believers who are punished in this world and are destined to go to Hell after death.`` (Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Voice of India, p 4-5).

Mr Musharraf said it was wrong to link London blasts with Pakistan just because one suicide bomber called Germaine Lindsay was a Jamaican. However, Germaine`s mother Maryam McLeod had converted to Islam. Lindsay followed her example and became Muslim. So devout is Ms McLeod that she appeared in complete Hizb on an interview conducted by CNN in Grenada. But it did seem that there was something more than her attire, which was out of sync with the carefree environment of the Caribbeans.

She was shocked to find that her exceedingly affectionate son could blow himself up to kill innocent people. But does this not strengthen our suspicion even more? Germaine, as an individual, might have been lovable and innocent but his sincerity to his faith impelled him to die even while killing others. His protest was different from the resentment that is usually seen among the coloured against the Whites commonly among South Africans or Americans. His was a true protest of momins against kafirs. The question is whether he would have done the same thing had he been a Christian?

The explosions at Sharm-el-Sheikh in Egypt too, need to be pondered. Egypt is the heartland of Arab and Islamic culture, and a much coveted place by Islamic radicals for the next Islamic revolution. Such voices had become strident in the late 1970s during the regime of President Anwar Sadat, who was eventually assassinated by Islamist radicals in 1981.

The Hosni Mubarak government too, does not tolerate extremists. The curriculum at Al-Azhar University that is followed throughout Egypt is controlled by the country`s government. It decides the choice of Imams which means exclusion of the radicals. But Egypt is the greatest source of Islamic scholarship in the Arab world. In fact, Islamists hate that more than its Islamic identity Egypt espouses its Pharaoic and Greco-Roman past. If radical Muslims are intolerant of their own pre-Islamic past, can they be tolerant of contemporary non-Muslims?

(The writer, a Rajya Sabha MP and Convener of BJP`s think-tank can be contacted at bpunj@email.com)

googly,

``They can`t STAND the fact that Dr. Ambedkar was as phenomenally erudite as he was, that he rejected Hinduism after familiarising himself with all its apologists ever, and adopted Buddhism. ``

I had a different impression. Ambedkarites are really pissed that rest of the indian intellegensia gives little more than lip-service to ambedkar as an intelluctual. Even the neo-buddhist movement is kind of in a rut at best, hardly a nicely growing tree, and this pisses of the hard-core neo-buddhist intellectuals more...with more melting pot that masanamuthu alluded, this movement is not likely to get +ve or -ve energy it would need.

just my observations based on talking with them in person.

googlymoogly

Masanamuthu is suggesting that not every Hindu here is a ``RACIST CASTEIST HINDU`` (any more than every Muslim or every Christian on Chowk is), but you are arguing (quite vehemently) that every liberal Hindu is (unusually) RACIST CASTEIST, and that ``every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs.``

Nobody likes to be called a fake. But are you levelling genuine charges?

Re: # 84:

googlymoogly:

I agree with most of what you said.. But if we get the data on the age groups of the ``RACIST CASTEIST HINDUS`` even here in this forum, I think we`d find they are mostly older generation folks, who have grown up with prejudices on the intellectual/other capabilities of others especially the ``lower castes/ Dalits``. There is marked improvement in the younger generation (say less than 30-35).. And that`s a good sign.

I like the way ``liberal`` Hindus deflect the casteism accusations WHILE STILL BEING CASTEIST. Of course they are ALL against casteism (snicker snicker), BUT

1. Every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs. Imagine saying the same thing about African Americans in the US. You`d immediately be identified as far-right KKK, a RACIST. But Indians routinely say such things about and TO Dalits and BCs - not just on forums but teachers say it to students in classrooms, including in the IITs. That`s right - it is still OK AND ACCEPTABLE to harrass and demean people like this among Indians. The average caste-Hindu is MORE RACIST than the average American redneck, who would at least think 5 times before saying these things to others. This racism IS NOT ACCEPTABLE in the US, but it IS acceptable among the most ``educated`` caste Hindus. India is an apartheid state and this is approved of by the average caste Hindu.

2. Every post contains dehumanizing and racist caste slurs about excrement, the occupations RACIST CASTE HINDUS FORCED DALITS INTO. Yes, that`s how much hatred caste Hindus carry in their hearts - a hatred that makes them want to torture people with excrement. That`s the contents of the caste Hindu head - FANTASIES OF TORTURE. This is what their religion teaches them. Hatred. Deal with anger by torturing people in the most medieval and hateful ways - excrement, rape, violence. This is how much rage and hatred these racist sickos carry. AND IN THE NEXT SENTENCE THEY CLAIM TO BE AGAINST CASTEISM!!! That`s the ``liberal`` caste Hindu. I`m liberal, and against caste, but I will hurl threats of torture and racist caste-slurs at any Dalit or BC who disagrees with me.

This is how racist caste Hindus have maintained an apartheid state for centuries. By dehumanizing and terrorising people at every turn, reducing them to chattel, treating them like animals. The racist caste-slurs are not ``just words`` mind you. They are a tool of hatred and control. Imagine a Dalit child going to a school and being threatened with such hateful language, such threats, such slurs JUST FOR ASSERTING HERSELF AND SPEAKING HER MIND.

This is how these caste-Hindu sickos maintain their bloodstained, gory privileges. They are daily terrorists.

3. The repeated LIE that ``only uneducated people`` and ``villagers`` and ``BCs`` oppress Dalits. LIES. Look at the behaviour of educated people on this forum - hell ANY forum. The most ``liberal`` caste Hindu will turn into an abusive racist goon with a filthy mouth the minute a Dalit speaks her/his mind. Dalit only has to mention the racism routinely faced by Dalits at all levels of society, its sanction in the shastras, the daily experience and practice of racist hatred in Indian society. That`s ALL it takes for caste-Hindus to turn into raving, violent, hateful, foul-mouthed, enraged bullies.

First they will take away your voice by calling it FAKE. Isn`t that the classic abuser`s ploy? You keep hitting someone and when they cry out in pain, you accuse them of pretending. Yup, that`s a sure sign of a SADIST mindset and SADISM is only ONE among the many caste-Hindu pathologies. Caste-Hindus are mentally diseased people because of the horrific oppression and hatred that their egoes are sustained by. So - first thing they will do is say `YOU ARE NOT A DALIT`. At the same time using racist caste slurs!! But that`s exactly how Dalits are oppressed! Racist caste Hindus may even call you a ``MULLAH``. Yup, you could be a Buddhist, or a Christian, or an atheist, but caste-Hindus will call you a MUSLIM, because to their teeny-weeny racist minds, that is a way ofdehumanizing you and rendering your VOICE invalid.

Its a way of taking away a person`s voice - invalidating the person. This is how the sadistic caste-Hindu mind functions to bully Dalits who speak their mind.

4. The other thing they do is BASH AND DERIDE EVERY DALIT INTELLECTUAL EVER. This is another racist and hateful caste-Hindu ploy. A way of dehumanizing and belittling people. This is the same hatred that denied Dalits the RIGHT TO READ AND LEARN for centuries. Now it resurfaces by calling people `ILLITERATE`` AND ``WRONG``, dismissing their knowledge and education.

You`ll see it when racist caste-Hindus try to tell Ambedkarite Buddhists ``YOU DON`T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM``. Riiiiight - racist caste-Hindus, who themselves know so little about Buddhism that they think it is the same thing as Hinduism, DELIGHT in assuming the priestly function and telling Ambedkarite Buddhists ``YOUR BUDDHISM IS WRONG. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT BUDDHISM``. They can`t STAND the fact that Dr. Ambedkar was as phenomenally erudite as he was, that he rejected Hinduism after familiarising himself with all its apologists ever, and adopted Buddhism. They have to diminish that, sneer at it, deride it - RACISM IN ACTION. Not even Dr. Ambedkar is spared!! dalits must defer to racist caste-Hindus even on Buddhism!!

Racist caste-Hindus cannot stand Dalit autonomy on matters of religion and knowledge. It strikes at the heart of their deep-rooted racist hatred.

THE IDEA THAT ``LIBERAL`` AND ``EDUCATED`` CASTE-HINDUS ARE NOT RACIST HAS TO BE EXPOSED. They sustain racism and casteism intellectually, behaviourally, attitudinally.

#82 ajeya is not yet mature apparently ..he does salute to the proud flag-pole, the one with the tri-color (and may be old glory as well) ;-)

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salim i know what i am proud of....even in my dreams ;-)
i am trying to understand what makes ajeya so proud..

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#75 what i mean is what greatness or benefit has india achieved for its peoples that you can be proud of as a contribution of ``your`` people?

Re #76

Very good point regarding good point of #76 which is good retort to #75 which was concerning #72, which itself was a reply to #70. Very confusing discussion for Kaka. :)

Kaka remember going to see Dr. Raka for big chief Chaka (as in Shaka Zulu), when latter suffering from acute constipation. It go something like this:

Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Chief no shit!
Dr. Raka: Here, take this. Ask the Chief to drink one table spoon.
Next Day
Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Chief no shit!
Dr. Raka: OK, ask him to drink two table spoons.
Next Day
Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Chief no shit!
Dr. Raka: OK, ask him to drink the whole damn bottle.
Next Day
Kaka: Dr. Raka, Big Shit, no Chief!

Re: # 76

good point.

RE: #75 by jang

Yes, I do. In spite of rampant illiteracy and poverty, they have the inherent humanity to treat Muslims with much more tolerance than Muslims have shown towards them over the centuries. Much more tolerance than the ``sophisticated`` Westerners, who, in spite of Gulf oil, will pulverize you Muslims if you kill just a few more of them.

Do you think the British will let Muslims live in peace if, for example, the 52 dead were to become 520? They would kick ALL of you out.

So be thankful for the greatness of heart of our people.

ajeya,

what i mean is, do you see amazing greatness in ``your`` people?

Re:#73 by kaalchakra

Jang Bahadur? Give me a clue. Is this a Chowk thing?

Is # 72 about the very same Jang Bahadur we all love and admire? :)

Re: #70 by jang

[#62 by ranjit

can you post how you would banish casteism? its already unlawful under the indian law. ]

This caste system is not threatening muslims. So mind your own business.



[#67 by Ajeya

``We just need to be more mature. ``

its upto you to figure out if you need to be more mature, or eat more manure (panchagavya.. now that the shraddha season is on in pitru-paksha). ]

Far better than salivating after 6-year-old little babies.


[look, its ok to be proud of your ancestry, but get real...the proof is in the pudding. if they were so great, look around. what do you see?]

I see pedophile-worshippers like yourself growing in numbers by leaps and bounds threatening to convert India into an Islamic wasteland like all other Muslim-infested countries.

Ranjit

Bhai, let`s base our opposition to the oppresive caste system on its sheer immorality, not pragmatics. Whatever the original form of caste may have been, or whatever good it may potentially have wrought, this was one area in which, over time, we went horribly wrong.

As we keep to the path of morality, we will naturally grow stronger.

#62 by ranjit

can you post how you would banish casteism? its already unlawful under the indian law.

#67 by Ajeya on August 21, 2005 3:57pm

``We just need to be more mature. ``

its upto you to figure out if you need to be more mature, or eat more manure (panchagavya.. now that the shraddha season is on in pitru-paksha).

look, its ok to be proud of your ancestry, but get real...the proof is in the pudding. if they were so great, look around. what do you see?

Satyamvada,

I think ``Fellow-citizens`` is a joke. Did you read Dalit`s post about resorting to violence along with his pedophile-worshipping kin? If this guy gets a chance, he will cut your throat (or your family`s) at the first chance he gets. Such people understand only one thing - and recently, they have been getting it in spades all over the globe.

I respect your sentiments, but all this idealistic talk is lost on them. You have to understand that these are bigots with closed minds.

It took the death of ONE person - Theodore Van Gogh - to alienate the entire country of Netherlands against the Islamists. And only 52 in the case of Britain. We Hindus are 40,000+ and counting, and our leaders are playing religion-based votebank politics.

I think the time for niceties are over.

If it`s fight they want - I say we give it to them.

I can understand Kaurasch`s frustation when he calls our leaders ``Hijras``. These pondscum have to be dealt with - and the sooner the better.

Ranger/Ajeya et al.

Surely you are not laughing at your own fellow citizens. Not even for humor, such
trivialization makes us worse. It is not a dharmic reaction.
The goal should be achieve Ravindranath Thakur`s wish:

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection:
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit;
Where the mind is lead forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action--
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

Re: #65, 66 by Ranger

There is a very high probability that many of these night-soil carrying cases were leaky – don’t you think? So in that case you can excuse Dalit for his “hehehe” stuff. There has to be some evolutionary effects of that stuff leaking onto the heads of many generations of Dalit’s ancestors.

I think we need to be more understanding and sympathetic to types like Dalit. Now about UglyGoogly and JangIdiot – it’s highly probable that they are from the same background as well.

We just need to be more mature.

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#59 by googlymoogly

Don’t worry about tvarad. this guy was previously posting as ``Kaalchakra`` he tried to cheerlead hindus into opposing Dalits on the other board. He is a total nutcase....hehehehe...

If you have not seen one racist…heheheheh…look at him now….heheheheh

#61 by Ajeya
“Being intellectually inferior and incapable of rational thinking,”

Read his post…heheheh…tell us how rationally this hindu thinks…heheheheh..

Another intellectual…hehehehe…just read and enjoy….heheheheh
#62 by ranjit
“Personally I am all for a caste-free hindu society.”

....But will be the first to abuse untouchables…heheheheheh...a real moonbat...hehehehe

Look at this hindu…hehehehe… hanging on threads…heheheheh
#63 by satyamvada
“Islam has its own caste system of Kureshis, syeds etc.”
Thinks syed and kureshi are caste…hehehehe…what a brainfart….heheheheheh

#59 by googlymoogly

I read your post on the other thread, you are right main stream hindu media never publishes stories about Dalits… Internet is changing everything… hindu can’t hide his ugly face…heheheheh

Ranjit and others,

First, `caste` cannot be banned or erased at one stroke. It has to/and will die
a slow death over the next 20-25 years. The biggest force keeping the caste
division alive is the political system - as it plays into vote bank politics. Note that in
the cities/urban areas - caste is hardly an issue. It is only in the rural areas that
caste matters these days.

Second, we Indians fell into the trap laid by the Pakis on the board.
Infact, Pakiland is the most casteist of states. It is a highly bigoted state and
all the Government forms have a question about a persons caste. We are all
told this nonsense that Islam is egalitarian and such crap - that is nonsense.
Islam has its own caste system of Kureshis, syeds etc. The converted
subcontientals are the lowest form of muslims.

We let the Pakis divert our attention. The great progress that India has made on
caste is amazing. But Indians seem to self-flagellate and put on the defensive
because of the ignorance of the caste system that exists in the Middle east and
Pakiland. Even Europe used to have a caste-system until the industrial revolution.

Re:satyamvada, masanamuthu puyu

My comments were targeted strictly against this one individual Dalit and not against any group of people. Dalit just crossed all limits as he was ranting and raving against hindus and spewing venom.

Personally I am all for a caste-free hindu society. In fact, I believe there are two things that hindus must do to increase their strength - 1. Erase Casteism 2. Encourage conversion from other faiths to hinduism. Both casteism and lack of support for conversion has seriously weakened us hindus. Casteism caused us to lose to the muslims in the past. A lack of support for conversion changed the deomgraphics in India, leading to the present situation of partition, Pakistan, communal violence etc.

Re: #60 by tvarad

This DalitIdiot, GooglyIdiot, JangIdiot etc. can attack Hindus all they want. Nothing is going to change. The dynamic happening in the world is pretty clear. Brainless moronic idiots, pedophile-worshippers and their sympathizers etc. are losing the world over, and will continue to lose everywhere.

Being intellectually inferior and incapable of rational thinking, these evil clones that have been born into or moved over to the “dark side” (to borrow a Star Wars parlance) will forever blame everybody else for their lack of achievement in this world, and will encourage violence and mayhem in the hopes of a prurient life in the next world (72 virgin prostitutes etc.).

Of course, none of this is going to succeed. They are failing miserably, and will continue to fail.

They will be stamped out of existence everywhere in the world.

Ignoring these odious individuals is the best way to go. Let them wallow in their own excrement.

Re: # 59

Your rant is a clear case of shooting the messenger. You`re upset that I`ve tread on your own version of the ``holy cow`` called Ambedkar, a virtual nobody until the `80s when he was resurrected into the pantheon of modern Indian political gods by opportunistic politicians.

Now that you have brought in African Americans, how about doing a little research about how the U.S. is righting the wrongs done to them? Has the government created job factories like in India to provide them employment?

In the U.S., there`s a constant review on whether affirmative action is working and is being dismantled; in India no such questions are asked and the quotas are actually increased every time pander-bear politicians face elections.

The only thing that saved India when she nearly went bankrupt in 1990 from these horribly flawed policies was the hard work of entrepreneurs like Narayan Murthy, Azim Premji and countless smaller ones. At present infratructure projects like airports, roads, railways alone could generate massive employment for the disadvantaged if the politicians abandoned pet theories about job creation and privatised them or at least ran them along corporate lines. But that would be too hard. Divvying up the fruits of other people`s labor is the easier way to go.

BTW, why is Ambedkar`s statue in front of Vidhana Soudha? What exactly did he do for Karnataka which is what the building is representative of?

Dalit is very correct about caste Hindus and caste Hinduism. I would note however that in recent years the ``4th caste`` ie. ``shudras`` have become ultra-Hindu. Read Chandra Bhan Prasad. He says progressive Brahmins and Dalits need to unite because ``everyone else`` hates them both for different reasons. Masanumuthu has a point!

As for tvarad`s comment that ``India is now under the governance of Dalits`` - is he mad?? His whole post is a fine example of how RACIST caste Hindus really are. Replace ``Dalits`` with ``African Americans`` and see how that sounds. Imagine saying this in a mixed-race American setting on the East Coast.

He even chooses to rant on about reservations. The irony of how badly argued his post is, is lost on the general casteist junta. he`s ranting against Dalits, Dr. Ambedkar and reservations, so he must be making sense!! Truly, caste-Hindus excel at eating cowdung and calling it nectar. These castesit, anti-reservation rants never make any sense and are never supported by anything like scientific data. Pure emotion and hatred sustain them.

And people point a finger at dalit, because he says things that make them VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AS THE TRUTH ALWAYS DOES......

ranjit is just upset that he cannot counter dalit`s assesment that bet sikander and ghouri, nothing worth nothing happened in india. i dont think that is true...i have visited many great temples and caves from this periods and have read accounts from foreign travellers which tells me otherwise. ranjit, find out if what dalit says is true..if it is, it is!

satyameva jayate

Ranjit,

Masanamuthu`s advice is correct.

Also, the so called ``brahmins`` were never the so called abusers of ``dalits`` ( note the
quotes - coz I do not believe in the system)
The abusers of the ``dalits`` are from the so called ``backward castes`` - why ?
Because the so called ``backward castes`` are all the landowners - this is true
all over India.

Second - never get angry. Anger clouds rational thinking.
Always focus on facts.
If you noticed the so called poster who you got upset at was
merely cutting and pasting from a known India baiting site. All he had was lies.
So why did you get angry ?

Re: # 52

``The real problem is that historically, caste Hindu has failed to provide good governance to India.``

India is now under the governance of Dalits through the reservation system (SC/ST, BC, BT you name it). Due to this there is zero governance, as the recent Mumbai floods have shown for example. This is what happens when you let in incompetent people through the ``equality of outcome`` model instead of following the ``equality of opportunity`` model and raising them to a standard where they can provide quality service. So why don`t they implement the latter? Because, horror of horrors, the lazy louts will have to actually work and that, obviously, is too hard. The public education system is in a mess because, instead of providing education, they want to implement social justice there too. And thousands of crores are thrown into that bottomless cesspool (including yet another surcharge on income tax tacked on recently). Visit any of the Indian Airports under the aegis of the AAI (another reservation ridden entity) and they are basically pig-sties that smell of urine and god knows what else where your journey is made that much longer by surly staff you accost everywhere. Just about every Government entity is a non-performing one because of this flawed approach.

Walk into any IT company office and you could forget you`re in India. Walk out onto the streets and you can see the effects of non-governance which keep India a third-rate country. And now opportunistic politicians want to work their magic by introducing the reservation system into private companies!

``As Dr. Ambedkar said Caste Hindu would never give up the hate he is born with and would never allow the exploited and oppressed classes of the society to make progress and stand up to the caste Hindu.``

Ambedkar is another manufactured hero like Jinnah who usurped the hard work of others for his own advancement. Vidhana Soudha in Bangalore was one of the first govt. buildings put up by erstwhile chief minister K. Hanumanthiah in a unique Indian style (apparently due to a challenge from Kruschev who complained that everything he was shown was built by the British). But guess whose statue is displayed prominently in front while Hanumanthiah`s is consigned to an insignificant area in the back? Opportnism in India never ceases to amaze me.

Re: # 53

Ranjit dude:

If ``Dalit ji`` is a real ``Dalit, he has all the rights in the world to denigrate Hinduism (as it is practised), because the Dalits have suffered real bad.. If you belong to the ``upper caste`` the wise thing to do would be to join hands with the ``Dalits``. Otherwise in a few generations the ``upper castes`` of today would end up as ``next gen dalits``.. The political power has moved out, and slowly the economic and educational and hence the bureaucratic power is moving in that direction too..

Look at how the `Kanchi Sankaracharya`` is humiliated. He is supposed to be the noblest of all ``Brahmins``. I`d advise the wise thing to do would be to educate the evils of this ``arab imperialist`` cult and maybe suggest Buddhism or Jainism instead, if they are still very much against Hinduism.

Ranjith
However justified your anger at the interactor Dalit be, your post is highly insensitive to the misery of thousands of REAL dalits subjected to centuries of humiliation and injustice.
Please read the Outlook independence day edition to find how some Indians are still forced to ``clean my toilet bowls``.

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``There are some protagonists of Hinduism who say that Hinduism is a very adaptable religion, that it can adjust itself to everything and absorb anything. I do not think many people would regard such a capacity in a religion as a virtue to be proud of, just as no one would think highly of a child because it has developed the capacity to eat dung, and digest it. But that is another matter. It is quite true that Hinduism can adjust itself... can absorb many things. The beef-eating Hinduism (or strictly speaking Brahminism which is the proper name of Hinduism in its earlier stage) absorbed the non-violence theory of Buddhism and became a religion of vegetarianism. But there is one thing which Hinduism has never been able to do – namely to adjust itself to absorb the Untouchables or to remove the bar of Untouchability.``
– BR Ambedkar
(Quoted in ‘Holy Cow and Unholy Dalit’ Siriyavan Anand, Himal, Nov 2002)

“While Mr Advani, who himself is an accused in the Babri Mosque demolition case, tried once again to commit himself to the ‘unfinished task’ of temple building and appealed to the religious minorities to be sensitive towards the feelings of the Hindus, others from his ilk were more direct.” Subhash Gatade

The two faces of Advani. Just before the recent attack on Ayodhya, Mr. Advani and his friends were involved in a most hilarious controversy about his remarks in Pakistan. During the whole made up storm in a tea cup, the RSS, VHP and Advani kept talking from their asses, but it was not all farts. The game was to establish Advani as an “independent” leader of the BJP. It was time for him to show that he could be a leader in his own right. So Mr. Advani went to Karachi and said some inane stuff that could never be pinned down on him in a drama directed by his loyal friends in the RSS and VHP. All actors played along nicely and now Advani is supposedly free of the RSS influence, an influence that has kept him in politics for the last 60 years. Can an ideologically committed politician shed his ideology in a matter of days? Not Advani! He never wavered in his commitment to the RSS and was always there for the RSS and would always remain an RSS follower.

Some considered that to be a crude attempt to woo Muslims but that was never the intention. The RSS and BJP don’t care about the Muslims vote. The creation of a moderate persona of Advani was important for grabbing a second look by the so-called moderate Hindus of India. Would that work considering the historical evidence that pile up against the caste Hindu? Advani would also fail like many other before him.(Advani not of any caste but he is in there with them).

The real problem is that historically, caste Hindu has failed to provide good governance to India. Before Muslims came to India, it was the most haphazardly governed country in the world. In fact, there never was any central government in India. Between the two attacks by Alexander and Ghauri for hundreds of years India had not done any thing that can get even a small mention in the history books. Those were truly dark periods of Indian history and the reason was caste Hindu. They lacked any motivation to change India or make progress. They were poor administrators and were happy to exploit untouchables to work in the fields and do other menial work. Caste Hindu justified his exploitation by making it a part of Hindu Dharma and since then Hate is the second nature of caste Hindu. They have nurtured hate for Dalits for centuries and have now found Muslims to be another target of this hate. The article above provides a true narration of how hate has seeped into Indian national politics due to caste Hindu and his current political ideology of Hindutva.

Again in the post independent India, like their predecessors before Muslims, caste Hindu Nehru, Indira, Desai, Rajiv and finally Vajpayee all failed to lead India and left India in one mess after another. Now caste Hindus have found a non white European and her Sikh lieutenant to rescue India from the social and economical morass that it is in.

Caste Hindus are order taker, munshi, dewan, or clerks but have very limited skills in political governance. They were good second fiddles to Muslims rulers and then British in exploitation of Dalits but lack the skills to lead the country fairly.

As Dr. Ambedkar said Caste Hindu would never give up the hate he is born with and would never allow the exploited and oppressed classes of the society to make progress and stand up to the caste Hindu.

By the way..Dalit is no Indian. An Indian wouldn`t use the term `ICS` instead of `IAS`.....hehehehehe...

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Jang, #47, {``good to know that you are not a bi got..BTW we do miss you in old country``}

My friend, I appreciate your kind visit to this land of my self-imposed exile. At the risk of being ticketed by the meter maid of FP (you know who that is :) ), I have attempted to create a free-for-all UP type of discussion environment (minus the vulgarity and profanity) here on FP. Please come and say hello often.
Thanks,

#47 good to know that you are not a bigot..i mean all the stuff about harlem residents being convivial with samina and scout was actually glorification, i misunderstood. BTW we do miss you in old country, and lately samina and atif tentatively were sighted.

these brahmins are tough-nuts.. many are as dark as anybody else in india, so its now a passe, no one seems to care that they were formed from head of brahma. but they now are touting their fondness for scholarship, morality, hygine and vegetarianism etc as virtues...bigots :(

jang, #46, {``in past you have made a big deal of your central asian fair skin..(those were the days when atif was your lover). how do you reconcile your pride in skin tone with your love for dalit, who may be very dark (if he were real)? in all fairness, you have show your appreciation for duskys like bipasa, but what she lacksin noor, she makes up in blinding headlights. ;-)``}

Hello, my good friend from the old-country of UP :)

Light skin (or for that matter, dark skin) is usualy obtained from one`s parents. It is a fact of my being, just as my black hair and dark eyes. I have never been to Central Asia, unless you count Tehran as in Central Asia.

I do not consider skin color to be an advantage or a detriment in real life. As Barachota, I may have used light skin/dark skin jokes at the expense of Brahmins who are supposed to be on top because of their ``paleness.`` My appreciation for Mr. Dalit is genuine and I detest discrimination and suppression in all its forms, as you very well know. :)

As for Mr. Atif, all I can say is Lahore Vilayet Kuwait - kis ka naam le liya bilawaje.

Now, to the important part. Yes, I have always stated that Bipasha Basu (AND Priyanka Chopra) are voluptuously beautiful and sexy. If I were not a happily-married man, I ....:)

#44 salim,
``I welcome you as a brother and wish you well``

in past you have made a big deal of your central asian fair skin..(those were the days when atif was your lover). how do you reconcile your pride in skin tone with your love for dalit, who may be very dark (if he were real)? in all fairness, you have show your appreciation for duskys like bipasa, but what she lacksin noor, she makes up in blinding headlights. ;-) so i have to put that aside.

Much is being made said on this board about the rationale for Pakistan. Some say it was Jinnah`s dream of a progressive, secular land, while others insist that it is exactly what Muslim masses wanted, a religious homeland where they could practice Islam to its fullest.

I beg to differ with both viewpoints. In my opinion, Pakistan was formed out of economic interests. The Congress Party had come out for land reforms, but only for UP and Bihar (where mostly Muslims were the land-owning ``nobility.`` In Punjab, Bengal, and Sind, the landowners were mostly Sikhs and Hindus. This selective ``land reform`` agenda of the Congress alarmed many UP Muslims who cleverly (or selfishly or stupidly) converted this fear into an ``Islamic`` issue. AligaRh was mobilized and we went through iterations of Muslim leadership of the Muslim League - Mohammad Ali Jauhar etc..

This fear of Congress ``land reform`` among UP Muslims met the aspirations of Bombay-based Gujarati/MaRwari Muslim business interests, and the frustations of Bengali Muslims at always having the short end of the stick in Bengal. Thus an alliance of economic interests was formed that needed some holy water to make it bloom. Jauhar, Iqbal, and others could not provide what the newly-converted Mr. Jinnah was able to deliver - effective leadership and credibility with the British. Poor Punjabi, Sindhi, and Pathan Muslims, who never really wanted Pakistan, were dragged into having a ``religious`` party right on their front yard. There was no real referendum for Pakistan. Muslims were voting for the Muslim League, because they thought it was protecting their ``economic`` interests for beter employment, education, protection of lands, and as a check against perceived ``political and economic`` domination by the majority Hindus.

The key point to remember is that the really religious people and parties, notably Jamaat-e-Islami, Maulana Azad, Maulana Maududi, Maulana Madni, and other Muslim leaders were vehmently against Pakistan.

Thanks for listening. :)

Dear Mr. Dalit,
At the risk of receiving scorn from many of my good Indian friends, I must state to you that I have always supported equal rights for all and the elimination of the caste system in all its forms everywhere, including Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan still has a notion of Scheduled Castes left and I am ashamed of it. India is trying, although not fast enough, and may it succeed in removing this blight from its promising future.
May the time come soon, when ALL of God`s (Ishwar`s, Brahma`s, Allah`s) children learn to respect each other as equal siblings. Ameen.
I welcome you as a brother and wish you well.
Thanks,

the biggest set-back for muslims in india is the TNT followed by the gulf employment syndrome.

there was a time when middle and lowel middle class muslims would send their children to ``hindu`` schools, i know folks from my parents generation from typical handloom (weaver) towns who did so, i have talked to them about their experience. now, the hindus being hindus, were not particularly nice to these muslim students, (the teachers were actually pretty nasty overall, never sparing the rod..), but they did get an education and a chance for folks to intermingle. this pretty much slowed down post TNT and partition. then came the gulf employment tide. many muslims who were in middle-class schools jumped to these after just 10-th grade education.

two kids, whose parents worked in the same office for port-trust, lived next to each other in the company apartments, one muslim and one hindu were in same school. the muslim kid was fantasising about this gulf job and went there the first opportunity. the hindu kid did not, and instead completed his engg. how the hindu kid works for mahindras in a top job making the new boleros or something..(cayene knows the model). the muslim kid got a quick money rush, came back and was kind of lost with a skewed sense of reality.

now the middle and lower middle class hindus and muslims do not mix in schools. upper middle do to some extent in convent or residential schools, but thats is not where the masses study. hindus study in south-indian education society school, or tilak school, and muslims in anjuman-e-islam.

#32 by khamkhwa. on August 17, 2005 4:46pm PT
salim ``sherlock`` chauhan ...
i am arjun_m too....muahahahahaha....;)

ps: send me an email and i will explain every thing to you...you know my addy...;) ``}

Khammy,
Living right next to Troy I pay heed to ``beware of Greeks bearing gifts.`` :)

People

This so-called Dalit is a wealthy Sri Lankan Tamil. Chowk isn`t the only site where he has been spewing venom. It`s only the ``Singhala Sri Lankan cannibals`` (as he calls them) who have mistreated him.

Re: # 39:

``#35 Dalit ji,

The term is IAS, not ICS..... ``

Yes, ICS is the term used by the Brits, and looks like ``Dalit ji`` is still stuck in the British days. The society has moved much forward.. There is still much work to be done in the rural areas. But on balance the situation looks good. That`s why you see Dalit leaders like ``Mayavati`` are now trying to woo Brahmins, ``Dalit ji`` is still not answering that particular question. And in TN, Dalit leaders have taken to protecting ``Tamil``.

---

``My guesstimate would be that 95% of mid and high level ICS officers are caste Hindu. Muslim and Dalit representation is next to nothing. ``

This shows how ignorant ``Dalit ji`` and his ``ummah masters`` are?. The big heartburn for the upper castes are the reservations in the central government sector where 22% and 27% seats are reserved for the Dalits(Scheduled Castes / Tribes) and the Backward Castes.. I think aligning with Muslims would actually spoil your cause. Muslims still have the attitude that they are past rulers and they are equally bad (along with the upper castes) in oppressing Kafirs (that includes the Dalits) whenever they have positions of power.

#35 Dalit ji,

The term is IAS, not ICS.....

#35 by Dalit on August 17, 2005 11:03pm PT

[I was taught to respect elders and families no matter what the differences might be. I will continue to hold on to those teaching despite constant abuses hurled at me and my mother by posters here.]

Is this a joke or what? If `hehehehe` is respect, then here`s my `hehehehe` to you.

Re: #35 by Pedophile-follower


[It will take generations to improve the Hindu attitude. In situation like this, the true road of struggle is to take an aggressive path and force Hindu to change its behavior. ]


We Hindus will never change our attitude. Low-class sub-human little pests like yourself will be eliminated by the Indian government`s security apparatus. One by one.

And your families will continue to exist in the lowest reaches of society. Serving the upper castes. Or begging. As always.


Heheheheheh.



:-D

Re: # 13

What you describe here is client side javascript behavior as already explained by some other chowk members.

I would like to thank the chowk staff for removing arjun_m’s post on unplugged where he abused my mother.
I am Dalit, untouchable, and was born into a two working-both day laborers-parents family. I was taught to respect elders and families no matter what the differences might be. I will continue to hold on to those teaching despite constant abuses hurled at me and my mother by posters here.

I know what I was taught and would not respond back in kind. However, who is going to teach this to Hindus? They were taught to hate poor and weak communities at their homes and they will continue to display what their parents taught them.

With that out of the way, I will continue to post my thoughts on the article above.

” It is basically a question of political will to show whether one really is concerned about the acute sense of deprivation and insecurity which pervades Muslim community in India in general and Uttar Pradesh in particular.”

I have great respect for Subhash’s thoughts but I beg to differ here. In my previous post, I argued that Muslims are going thru what Dalits have gone thru in India for centuries. But it is not really a matter of political will. Political parties get to the top for a temporary period. They mostly work for short term policies and often there is so much turmoil in the state governments that many policies are not implemented by the state governments.

The real issue is the civil Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is permanent. ICS officers don’t go thru election cycles and they are the ones that make and implement permanent policies.
My guesstimate would be that 95% of mid and high level ICS officers are caste Hindu. Muslim and Dalit representation is next to nothing. No matter what policies politicians make these are the people who implement them and it is a matter of their own commitment to the policy that determines the full implementation of the policy.

The RSS and VHP may not have great clout in Hindu masses but they do have an un-proportionate influence over the Hindu middle class and thus influence the civil bureaucracy from the top to almost the clerical level. The Hindu bureaucracy that has bought in to the Hindutva ideology is firmly committed to cut Muslims to size. They believe like many other RSS types that Muslims have broken this country apart and really have no rights in the modern day India. This thinking goes from the police to local level magistrate to higher secretaries’ level.

The first result of this hate in bureaucracy is that Muslims are now less than two percent in government jobs. Government still is a substantial source of employment. Some Dalits have moved into government positions but at the expense of Muslims and not caste Hindu.

In the 50s, 60s and 70s there used to be Muslims officers and clerks at different levels but now one will rarely find a Muslim. The one major impact area is the primary and secondary vernacular schools. These schools used to have plenty of Muslims teachers but in the last two decades Muslim teachers are no where to be found.
The primary school teachers in the villages and small suburban schools make a huge impact on kids. Unfortunately, most of them teachers are highly opinionated, biased, and dogmatic. When a Muslim kid gets to the school, first he finds an unsympathetic teacher and mostly goes thru the abuse that was originally reserved for Dalit kids. All dalit kids, who have been to village or small town schools, know what forces bully them constantly. From teacher to caste Hindu students, dalit kids are subjected to constant ridicule. Now the same attitude is being transferred to the Muslims kids. More and more Muslims end up removing their battered kids from the schools and end up in either small one teacher Muslim school or at some Madarssa.

The teachers have no sympathy with Muslims and they don’t influence other kids to correct their behavior and as I said earlier, Hindus at home are taught to hate Dalit and Muslim by their parents. In situation like this, Muslim alienation has tremendously increased over the last twenty odd years.

Dalits and Muslims travel in the same boat in India. Things will never improve for them unless they do a joint struggle and even that would take years.
Hindu attitude is not going to change overnight. They have learned hate in the last several centuries and it will not be one day, overnight, one week, one year, or ten years job. It will take generations to improve the Hindu attitude. In situation like this, the true road of struggle is to take an aggressive path and force Hindu to change its behavior.

#5 by dost-mittar
I wish you were always this truthful…hehehehe… it not economics….heheheh…that is Marxist approach and will not change the situation…heheheheh

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salim `sherlock`chauhan...
henceforth, i will not use my arjun nick...that`s a promise...;)

salim ``sherlock`` chauhan ...
i am arjun_m too....muahahahahaha....;)

ps: send me an email and i will explain every thing to you...you know my addy...;)

This `Dalit` character has gone on record with his `hehehehehe` s wishing death and destruction upon India...

Dalit ...by the way... if bloody hindoooos are anti-muslim , and so hateful communal fascists ....hatred for hindus on your part makes you no different. You are a communal fascist anti-hindooo pig yourself. All in the same boat. Hehehehehe.....

Dalit....hehehehe....I did it. I posted that script. Now sue me you stupid achoot. Call FBI, CIA whatever.....go ahead...

#27

Yep, you have convinced me. I am truly impressed. I also think that you should contact the CIA, DIA, DEA and the local Dalit associations and inform them of this breakthrough......

Now tell the truth, did you figure this out all by yourself or did you have help?

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Re: # 23

I thought chowk was tamper-proof. They had this problem 7-8 years back when the entire system came crushing down. I hope they nip the problem in the bud.
Seems that i will see many more avatars of you now :)

Re: # 23

I thought chowk was tamper-proof. They had this problem 7-8 years back when the entire system came crushing down. I hope they nip the problem in the bud.
Seems that i will see many more avatars of you now :)

#22, Netizen {``I am not defending anyone, just thought could be related to Zotob.
Why bother to logout someone, when you can just ignore him/her?``}

Net,
I think that the Khamkhwa/JohnGalt aka JagdeeshGodboley combo is trying to muzzle me again. Earlier, on UP, they were deleting every one of my messages and erasing all my threads, right after I posted them. Now, they are trying to log people out that they don`t want to be heard. I think that they are using Arjun`s nic for camouflage.

I have noticed Khamkhwa use Mr. Hiindvi`s nic earlier on another forum to convey his own message. Mr. Hindvi caought on to it and complained.

Now, does everyone understand why people have to resort to multiple nics - because of these guys like Khamkhwa, Jagdeesh Godboley.

I really think that Arjun is innocent here. It`s definitely not his style, but it does fit the two dukkars to a tee.

Salim

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Dalit#19:

No one is defending anyone. I cant make anything out of the posted javascript or whatever script it is. If it is arjun doing it, he is doing it to a lot of us and it is quite reprehensible even if it is done to one person.

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Re: # 17


theres an internet worm affecting many corporate computers. My companys system was also down.

#22-16

I think that it is happening to everyone. I am illiterate in these matters but it looks like that the server is having some problems.

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Chowk Staff,


You must confirm that no personal info has been compromised... you silence is not appreciated......

The hack script was posted on 5 AM PST and you have not done any thing yet to remove this poster....

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Subhash:

``Everybody knows that it is not a question of legal provisions. It is basically a question of political will to show whether one really is concerned about the acute sense of deprivation and insecurity which pervades Muslim community in India in general and Uttar Pradesh in particular``

The ironic part is that this insecurity continues despite changes in governments. It seems that while the saffronites are interested in attacking ``the other`` to create a hindu vote bank, the Mulayams and Mayas are interested in maintaining the same insecurity to retain their vote banks. A true friend of Muslims is hard to find.

What was also quite amusing is that the Chowk Staff pounced on posts #3 and #4 and blocked them out. This after letting this Dalit character run rampant with his he-he-he for as long as I can remember.

Reply to #2 Dalit:

It is amusing to see a Pakistani spew forth hatred for anything Indian under a ``Dalit`` avatar. The real astonishment for die-hard India baiters from the other side of the border is that their pet vision of India being consumed by it`s apparent contradictions of caste, religion and creed just hasn`t come true and, for the love of God, they just can`t figure out why. But hope springs eternal.

Keep dreaming while wiping the spit off your face that is being directed at you from all across the globe, from Egypt to Jordan, from New York to London, from Manila to UAE.

Re: #2 by Dalit

[Hindu can’t live without hate. It is one religion in the world that teaches its children to hate one poor community from the very beginning of a children’s life. When children see that untouchables are not allowed inside or not allowed to touch anything inside a house, they follow in their parents’ footstep.

Hate is a part of Hindu psyche.]


While you are quite accurate in saying that casteism has caused and continues to cause untold sufferings to untouchables and other lower castes, your lack of balance tells me that there is some deep-seated torment going on in your mind.

While lower caste Hindus have suffered a lot in the hands of upper caste hindus, they have also suffered a lot in the hands of the Muslims (and do suffer to this day in Pakistan) – which ironically you yourself point out. The reason Muslims are more tolerant towards them in India is because many Muslims in India are drawn from the same backward classes. In Pakistan, the Muslims are the principal tormenters of the Bhils and other backward classes. Lower caste hindus who convert to Christianity, for example, think that they have found the perfect solution. You should listen to the experiences of some of these Indian Christians in “white” churches in America. Human nature is hard to change.

Cursing Hindus all day long is not going to solve your problem. Many Hindus over the centuries have tried to fight against the ills of casteism. This fight continues to this day. Affirmative action, for example, is one of the remedies the Indian government has tried to reverse the ills. And many upper caste hindus do pay a high price for this effort at reversal. Reverse-discrimination in college admissions and jobs are not easy in a country where resources and jobs are scarce. My father, and many like him, for example, had to serve under people who were rapidly promoted above them, in spite of the promoted officers being immensely under-qualified and under-capable. I had to photocopy engineering textbooks I could not afford when there were dozens of brand new books lying unused just out of reach in the SC-SC section of the library. As a society, we are trying. All Hindus I know absolutely hate the caste warfare and oppression that happens in the rural sections of Bihar and UP. These ills, like poverty, will take decades to rectify, and as Dost-Mitter has suggested, will lessen and disappear along with poverty and illiteracy.

Putting Hinduism down and showing it in a bad light in contrast to Islam and Christianity might slake your thirst for revenge, but beyond that, it would do nobody any good.

Subhash,
It seems that you have done a lot of work among muslims in general and u.p. muslims in particular. Could you throw some light on how after all these decades after partition they are still holding on to practises keeping them aloof from the mainstream. And why aren`t there any prominent muslims who voice against such nonsense.

Solution: Clerics want Shari`ah, many `courts` working

Praising the role of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board in the establishment of ``Darul Qaza`` across the country, Mohammed Abdur Rahim Quraishi, Secretary of AIMPLB, says: ``The duty to settle, determine and judge mutual disputes by laws revealed and laid down by Allah and his messenger is regardless of age and clime, and status and area of abode.``

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story2%2Etxt&counter_img=2?headline=Clerics~want~Shari`ah,~many~`courts`~working

---

SC disturbed by Shari`ah courts


Taking serious note of attempts to set up a parallel judiciary through Shari`ah courts, the Supreme Court on Monday issued notices to the Union Government, All-India Muslim Personal Law Board and States of Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Assam, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, West Bengal and Delhi. The notices were returnable in six weeks.




A two-judge bench of Justices YK Sabharwal and CK Thakker issued the notices while responding to a Public Interest Litigation filed by a Delhi advocate, Mr Vishwa Lochan Madan. The petition said ``the defiant attitude`` of the functionaries of Dar-ul Ulooms and All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) was an ``open affront`` to the judicial system set up under the Constitution of India.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story1%2Etxt&counter_img=1?headline=SC~disturbed~by~Shari`ah~courts

``It is basically a question of political will to show whether one really is concerned about the acute sense of deprivation and insecurity which pervades Muslim community in India in general and Uttar Pradesh in particular. The recent findings of the Prime Minister’s high level committee rather further corroborate this. A member of this committee shared his findings after a three day sitting in Lucknow “ Muslims felt they were treated like second grade citizens and their condition, at times, was worse than other deprived sections, with accusations of the police and PAC being prejudiced when it came to Muslims.” ``

Oh really!!! now i see why this kind of things happen:

SIMI organised `02 sabotage on Shramjeevi: Panel report

While the Union Government is maintaining a silence on the findings of the preliminary inquiry into bomb explosions on Shramjeevi Express on July 28, 2005, near Jaunpur in Uttar Pradesh, the report of the Statutory Committee that looked into the May 2002 accident of the same train in the same area has categorically blamed the ``derailment`` on ``sabotage`` by the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), active in the State`s Poorvanchal.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front 5Fpage&file_name=story5%2Etxt&counter_img=5?headline=SIMI~organised~`02~sabotage~on~Shramjeevi:~Panel~report

Dalit#2:

A whole post without any hehehehe`s? Welcome to the community of serious Interactors.

There are quite a few home truths in your statements and caste hindus should pay attention to them. In my opinion, and you are welcome to disagree, Hindus have over centuries not shown hate towards dalits as much as contempt. They were beneath hatred. And a lot of this contempt exists in the minds even of city dwellers, not just among illiterate villagers. One of the reasons why the practice of untouchability got diluted in the cities was its sheer unfeasibility; how could you tell the glass in which you are being served a drink in a restaurant was not used by a dalit before you or the man sitting next to you in the bus or train is not a dalit?

In my opinion, the root cause of casteism is disparities in economic status. With the passage of time, I have seen upper caste hindus going into the upper end of some very low caste occupations, such as tailoring, hair-styling, nurshing and even plumbing. The answer therefore lies in the economic upliftment of dalits to go along with their political empowerment that is taking place.

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