Decline of Science in the Muslim World

gill sahib,

very good post ..... and wishing you a happy retirement ....... keep writing ...

you are right ``My name, the religion in which I was born, and my ex-country are the symbols of my identity, all of them`` ......... it is sad but true, and we have to live with this burden ........... yet, i do think all of us are unnecessarily obsessed with who we were, instead of who we are or who we might become ........ contrary to popular myth, history does not repeat itself and we would all be better off if we burned all the history books ........

#66 Kamath

[The name Aryabhat is misspelled. It is a Sanskrit name and ought to be written as ``Aryabhata`` or ``Aryabhatta``. These Hindiwallahs from Cow Belt simply murder a good spelling and pronouncement of words of a great classical language.]

Absolutely! We must dig up each word’s origin and make sure in no uncertain terms it sounds exactly the way it sounded back when none of us was around to hear how exactly it sounded! And about those cowbelt wallas – boy what a great crime they are committing, so callously going around murdering perfectly good words when there are perfectly good PEOPLE just waiting to receive the same treatment – let’s get all our priorities straight! Yeah! What an outrageous crime! It’s absolutely their fault and to think after all the hard work those Bombay fillum-wallahs have been putting in to clean it all up – those true scholars of the language – the original architects of “khaalee peeli boom maarta hai”! We must have our T’s right! (Stay out of it, T-bhai!) And all those South Indian Sujathas must right away petition for changing their names to Sujata! And while we are at it, make sure those Venkats change it to Vishnus – like the holy scriptures stipulate! And Rama to Raam or at least Ram (but not as in that Dodge vehicle). And last but not least… Kamath to Kaamat, or at least to Kama – the permanent source of all the right desires, if not necessarily the “right” words!

Re: # 43
The name Aryabhat is misspelled. It is a Sanskrit name and ought to be written as ``Aryabhata`` or ``Aryabhatta``. These Hindiwallahs from Cow Belt simply murder a good spelling and pronouncement of words of a great classical language.

freethinker,

You are no scientist. You may pretend, but you are not a scientist.

You have no guts to face up to the truth. You accept that you should be proud
because you were born into something, because a large number of people have
your same name ? What nonsense is that ? even a illiterate villager wouldnt say that.
Scientists dont go by opinion polls.

A scientist, probes, thinks on his own, if you were born into a Nazi family - would
you be proud of it ?
Facts and truth as much as we can understand is important. Courage to face the
truth is important.

saa vidya yaa vimuktaye - that is knowledge, which sets you free.
Without commitment to knowledge and truth, you are no scientist.

Re: # 63
Very nicely composed post.
I am glad that you spelled out the aspect of inspiration and creativity. In order to thrive, you need both personal drive and environment.

Inter-actors:

I hope the passions have now cooled down. I suppose I can wrap it up now. I had never thought that my article will provoke the kind of discussion that took place.

As a human being, I was born in a certain culture and in a certain religion (Islam) and I have roots in them. I am not ashamed of it. I have not severed these roots out of any inferiority complex. But this is not the end. The trouble is that many of the discussers view almost everything in the frame work of India and Pakistan and their never-ending political problems. Thank God (figure of speech) there seems to be some peace on that front. I have stayed away from those unprofitable and inane discussions and suggest humbly to you also to refrain from them.

I had posted an article on Chowk which was captioned ``Some of My Mentors in the Professional Life.`` All of my mentors were from the west because they had inspired me with creative ideas. Unfortunately, none of them was a Muslim or a Pakistani or even an Indian. I have lived outside for far too long to continue nourishing any ill will against any body. I am a man of the whole world, so to say. For the last twenty years, I have worked in a multicultural department and have been fairly successful.

9/11 ruffled many people but for the Indo-Pakistanis 9/11 had already occurred on 8/14 in 1947. We have not overcome that psychological trauma and divide yet. The generation that saw it and experienced it, has, by and large, put it behind and has moved on. The succeeding generations do not want to let go, are still quibbling, and reliving it for no reason.

One day, my supervisor, a white guy, who has retired now (incidentally, I am retiring on 9/9/05), asked me what was the most popular name in the world. I was surprised that he asked me that question because we had never discussed religion before. In all honesty, I said it was John. He said, ``No. It is Muhammad, your name.`` My name, the religion in which I was born, and my ex-country are the symbols of my identity, all of them. Why should I be ashamed of them? The enviable thing is that one should not use them as weapons against others and should respect the identities of the others.

I thank all of you for your feedbacks. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

















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Since I appear to have scared away hamidm for now, I will like to use this lull in interacts to put in a couple of my additional thoughts on this article.

The figures from the past who have been described as achievers in science in this article were pioneers of a sort at the time – these individuals happened to be Muslims – when the Muslim culture was the predominant one – I doubt they thought too much about their “Muslim-ness” – that is a more recent phenomenon when there is an apparent shortage of inspiring contemporary figures so people have to look back and delve into the buried barrels of the past to find whatever comes up. There is nothing wrong in addressing these people as Muslims – the author did it for precisely that reason – the term Muslim is just a way to classify. The important thing, if I were a Muslim, would be to worry why there is such a shortage of role models to begin with. I of course, am not a Muslim, but many times I have caught myself wondering along similar lines about the sub-continent as a whole. In my view, some of it may be traced to practices in religion – but I am not sure that’s the complete answer or even the major part of the answer. (I believe it is more to do with the way we bring up our children and teach them to obey orders without questions which stifles originality of thoughts. I have not done any research on this issue myself.)

Although the author’s words are gentle – his message comes out loud and clear – religion works to most benefit when used on a personal basis in personal lives. Any other use is counterproductive and ends up hurting the religion itself, and the affected populations are held back. Some of the assertions the author candidly puts forward will not be considered “politically correct”, very few writers have the guts to make them openly. I applaud the author for this effort, and others should try to understand and appreciate his intents too, instead of merely parsing his words or attempting to bring his peripheral thoughts more in line with their own – that fact is obvious to me!

“Main ne keh dee mere dil ki baat…”

#59 Hamidm (superlated earlier)

[...... then how do you explain indian muslims cheering for the pakistani cricket team in mumbai ?? .......(this is hearsay, and i have no intentions of inciting a mob against fv on chowk or a riot in mumbai )]

So you think you have landed the knock-out punch with your “trick” question – do you? Boy, are you in for a surprise on this!

I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT!

First of all, why shouldn’t they? They are citizens of a free country and should be able to choose any one to root for, pure and simple! It is a game, after all. Besides, (speaking as an Indian) it has been our ancient tradition that we always root for our guests – and especially for the underdogs (which I am sure is too kind a word in case of the Pakistani team, although I am not keeping track of cricket)!

Now, if they were to cheer for somebody who was tying up explosives to body and blowing himself up – that would be worrisome (and downright asinine for such “supporters” after all those bombs are not really “intelligent” enough to tell one person from another – and what right-minded individual would like to destroy his/her own native land (answer: NONE)!) – but even that won’t be ILLEGAL – as long as the support did not extend to aiding/abetting such an activity.

(Side note: The problem with the Pakistani rulers of the yore has been that they have been LYING, using the term “moral and diplomatic support” as cover for Jihadi activities in Kashmir and elsewhere in India. If such support were only that – it won’t bother ANYBODY, especially India. Unfortunately, even under the ongoing peace process – they have not had the guts to come out and admit their folly publicly – which in my view, is the first prerequisite for even the remotest chance of long-term peace in the region. We may have to wait for more visionary leaders yet, but don’t loose hope!)

The bottom line is “My dear hamidm – patriotism can not be simulated and it can not be forced – it must be heartfelt or it’s no good at all! Just fake virtue!”

The period of history Mr Gill is talking about from 800 to 1500, there is no doubt that Muslim/Islamic world led in science. This world stretched from Portugal in the west to borders of china in the east, in this land there were Spanish, Moroccan, Libyans, Egyptians, Syrians, Persians, afghans, Turks, Punjabis, and of course Arabs etc.

Religions: Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus etc, mr gill is factually and historically justified to call it muslim or Islamic world, because after all this civilisation was inspired by religion , at that time there was no concept of nation state as such.
Progenitor can also mean religious/ cultural as well as ethnic.

Re: # 54

beejay,

...... then how do you explain indian muslims cheering for the pakistani cricket team in mumbai ?? .......(this is hearsay, and i have no intentions of inciting a mob against fv on chowk or a riot in mumbai )

#57 Dear Pardeshi
(jana nahin – mujhe bhool ke!)

I must applaud you for coming to Hamidm’s help – he could perhaps do much better with your type of help than the other “shrinking” variety! (I am afraid my threat of unleashing Urdu poetry has scared him away.) I already addressed hamidm’s points in #54. This is not a “right/wrong” type of question – more a matter of perception.

As you yourself pointed out – people celebrated as Indians. Indians are one type of grouping, there can be other types – based on region, language, ethnicity, and yes religion. If it is okay to celebrate based on one type of group, there is nothing wrong with another type – be it Muslim, Hindu, or something else. The important thing is the RIGHT type of accomplishment should be celebrated – a prize in science definitely qualifies as the “right” type. WHAT THE HECK IS THE BIG DEAL THEN?

#53 Raw_Dust
The Jewish persecution was a very REAL fact of life – perhaps one of the greatest tragedies in the contemporary history of mankind – we south Asians were not in the picture when most of that outrage took place – however, let’s not try to be wishy-washy about it! (Warning: I am more touchy on this issue than Y. L. Hamdani is on MAJ.)

Beejay #54:

{My dear – so is everybody else! When somebody from any community or group accomplishes something for the FIRST time, there is no reason not to sense vicarious pride and joy – for example, when Hargovind Khorana got his fraction of the Nobel Prize, I believe there were widespread celebrations in India because of his Indian citizenship (which he promptly renounced within the next year)!}

I think Hamidm is right.

ALL indians were proud of Khurana as an indian, not just hindus who could have claimed him as a hindu nobel prize winner. I remember we were so proud of Homi Bhabha in early fifties for his contributions. And now, when Sania Mirza moves to fourth round, all NY Indians were cheering her and are proud of her as an Indian irrespective of her religion.

Do you see the difference?

Thanks.

#51 Hamidm

[......... my intentions are good too, but all my friends, including mrs hamidm, say i am going to hell ......... like the say the ``road to hell is .........``]
Like the old saying goes, you will be SO busy greeting and shaking hands with all your chowk friends that you won’t have time to worry! (By the way, shouldn’t it say “…all my friends and my boss, say …”?)

Seriously, if you read the first paragraph of this article, it talks all about “neutral zones”. I sometimes feel the good Dr. (not the shady variety represented by S3 (unfairly referred to as the chicken who ran for his life!)) has been given zero “neutral zone” by this crowd. Every one wants him to say “uncle” – realizing too late that HE is the uncle! If we can not take a simple compilation of facts and figures and discuss it rationally – what pathetic creatures are we?

I do not wish to belabor the point regarding forefathers but – with the possible exception of the “circle of time” (kaalchakra) (who has ALWAYS been around) – most of us have not met those folks face to face – and if through some magic were able to do so – perhaps won’t know what to say – especially if they use a different language – Simian, for example!

#52 Shishapa

Thank you. At least somebody listened to me. I did not mean for you to not send posts his way – post him uppers and lowers and lefts and rights by all means –feel free to post posts all over him – just don’t send pokes his way!

#48 Hamidm (superlatives described earlier)

[but you must admit that we muslims, from the suicidally orthodox to the bhangra-dancing ``cultural``, ARE preoccupied with our faith…]
My dear – so is everybody else! When somebody from any community or group accomplishes something for the FIRST time, there is no reason not to sense vicarious pride and joy – for example, when Hargovind Khorana got his fraction of the Nobel Prize, I believe there were widespread celebrations in India because of his Indian citizenship (which he promptly renounced within the next year)!

[…many reasons for that : a) we feel besieged b) we suffer from a nagging fear that we might be wrong c) we are schizophrenic d) we have delusions of grandeur , etc. etc ...... ]
My dear, stay away from S3 – he will probably diagnose all of the above – in YOU!

[......... but, as someone pointed out you will not hear a christian scientist talk about christian science, and i don`t think there are too many chinese children who go around talking about how they invented toilet paper .................on the other hand, ask any indian-muslim kid and he will rattle off the names of half a dozen arab and persian scientists .......... how do you explain that ? ....... ]
Simple, my dear Watson! When the westerners pulled off many of those extraordinary feats (back when) all of us South Asians were not on the radar screens (as in nobody gave a hoot about us) therefore it was assumed that everything was about THEM! Do not judge facts of today from the yardsticks of yesterday.

I hope you get the picture – if not I am sure I can come up with more Urdu poems to illustrate the point further – even though I don’t know the language!

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

hamidm:
on a sidenote:
my friends from jewish background (irrespective of how religous or agnostic) dont seem to be hung up over invoking Judaism/jewishness/etc. in each and every kind of discussion at the drop of hat.

However, they all ..as they say... were given very intense spiels about the persecution of jewish people by their moms while growing up. The persecution and insecurity narrative seem almost identical among their families no matter how religous/reformist they`d be.

in a way their focus seems more on the people and fears of further persecution than on faith itself.

Gill Sahib
there wasnt any need to apologise. thanks for replying. i appreciate.