Decline of Science in the Muslim World

Re: # 50

OK BJ,

Took your advise. I am done saying what I had to say. No more posts to Gill Saheb
from me.

Re: # 50

beejay,

......... my intentions are good too, but all my friends, including mrs hamidm, say i am going to hell ......... like the say the ``road to hell is .........``

#45, #46, #47

Please give Dr. Gill a break! Ye dharam-karam mein kya rakkha hai? Isn`t it bad enough that he gets the short end of the stick from the ``other`` side already for his being more than usual outspoken – that you all have to form a backup lynch mob sena as well?

And, since I am in my shayaree mood today –

“Yoon to hum jaante jannat ki hakikat, lekin
Dil ko behlaney ka Ghalib ye khyal achchhaa hai…”

The bottomline is – his intentions are good, so quit ganging up on him!

PS: As far as reference to genetics is concerned, please read my #42 again! For those of you who got so befuddled by MY shairee in there that you don`t know what to say – and feel like booing (or boo-hoo-ing) – go write your own!!!

Re: # 47

touche !

gill sahib,

........... but you must admit that we muslims, from the suicidally orthodox to the bhangra-dancing ``cultural``, ARE preoccupied with our faith (like the jews) ............. there might be many reasons for that : a) we feel besieged b) we suffer from a nagging fear that we might be wrong c) we are schizophrenic d) we have delusions of grandeur , etc. etc ......

......... but, as someone pointed out you will not hear a christian scientist talk about christian science, and i don`t think there are too many chinese children who go around talking about how they invented toilet paper .................on the other hand, ask any indian-muslim kid and he will rattle off the names of half a dozen arab and persian scientists .......... how do you explain that ? .......

........... do you think this type of behaviour is symptomatic of a bigger problem ?

Gill Saheb:

You may have said it in one of your earlie articles but the answer, in my opinion, is to remove the temporal aspects of Islam and treat it purely as faith. Because science, as you know, is more than physics. It is a matter of unrelenting use of rational logic and reject whatever does not meet the test of logic. If it leads to the rejection of what`s there is someone`s holy book, so be it.

``I am proud to say that the scientists who developed science in the Islamic world during 800-1500 CE were my progenitors.``

With a name like Gill, the chances of being so are not very high. [Naipaul could easily use this quote in support of his central thesis of Muslims rejecting their past!]

It is peculiar to muslims to bring religion into everything....inclding science. When Pakisatan developed the bomb, it was dubbed the ``ISLAMIC`` bomb....it is MUSLIM science etc.

When America made the first bomb, they didnt dub as CHRISTIAN bomb....nor are the Western achievements (and there are MANY) dubbed Christian science.....as already pointed out in Chinese example....gun powder wasn`t dubbed as Budha powder etc.

Not that anything is wrong with naming ISLAMIC - just a point that ISLAM is the main or only force in almost ALL muslims lives....even the educated ones.

Re: # 41

Freethinkerji,

``Why don`t you write about the people whom you mentioned in your post yourself. I know a little bit about Aryabhat only. You may do a better job than I. And as a matter of fact, I don`t take assignments from the people whom I don`t know. I don`t mean any disrespect to you but that`s how it is. ``

I am glad what you wrote you wrote. And I am not assigning you anything, I was using
words like `Would you` and `Hope you will write`.
Now to the point, which Hamidm2 did get, was, you are aware and proud of scientific
achievements of your religious progenitors but are aware and probably not even
interested in finding about your physical progenitors (assuming your are from around
Pakistan and you know what I mean). That is what I feel sad about.
When religion changes, duniya badal jaati hai. Origin shifts from 0 to x and
nothing matters between 0 and x, only x and after.

I am not into writing and journalism. I believe you are, that is why my `Would you`
and `Hope you will write`.
Give me a driver or a kernel extension and I will write that for you. That is all I
can write.

i have many chinese friends in scientific community, no one seemed bothered about ming dynasty science or the tao of physics etc. ..even before the recent chinese boom. they were all very proud of paper and ceramics etc, but then they are the middle-kingdomite..kinda inward looking.

Raw_Dust:

A correction. My remarks about Aryabhat and others should be addressed to Shishapa.
I don`t know the name of the poet who wrote that couplet. A few years back, I made some enquiries about it from my poet friends but they couldn`t help me either. I do apolgise for the mistake that I made.

Mohammad Gill

#34 Dr. Gill, #38 Shishapa, and #40 Hamidm (my bosom buddy)

“Kisi” ne urz kiya hai:

“Huff” aur puff karein – kitnaa jamane waale
Hum to anjaan hain – in akal-bharee baaton se
Yoon to hain baagwan – sannaton se thoons-thoons ke bhare
Dil ko behlatein hain – bus aapke deedaron se
Aryabhat honge – koi aur nigaahon wale
Hum to bus chushm-deed baap or daadaaon tuk!

Raw_Dust:

So you know that Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey are Muslim countries. What is wrong in using Muslim in their stead. Why are you so allergic to Muslims? I don`t know what you`re but even if you are a Hindu or Muslim or atheist, you shouldn`t be ashamed of identifying yourself with your religion of birth or of forefathers. And if you are a non-believer, don`t try to convert every one to your way of (un)belief. This is a point which I tried to emphasize in the article. The reigious belief or unbelief is personal and so it should stay. You cannot wish away a billion Muslims for some queer reason of your own.

Why don`t you write about the people whom you mentioned in your post yourself. I know a little bit about Aryabhat only. You may do a better job than I. And as a matter of fact, I don`t take assignments from the people whom I don`t know. I don`t mean any disrespect to you but that`s how it is.

Hamidm2 Sahib, my pleasure. In fact I was not even thinking of you when I wrote that couplet.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 38

shishapa,

...... excellent point !

........... as much as i like gill sahib, it is true that most muslims (which includes people who were unfortunate enough to be born muslim) are preoccupied with islam even if they reject the silliness ......... this is a trait that we share with the jews ............ my friend gershon blumstein, a self-hating jew, once said to me , `` you are as pathetic as me - you are a self-hating muslim`` ........... what can i say ?

........ but doubt and self-hate is not the same as ``wearing your religion on your sleeve``

Gill Sahib : that was a great shair. :)

my disagreement was Only to your use of Muslim as a label in contemporary sense. i think it is simplistic.

many thanks.
PS - by the way can you tell me the poet who came up with that gem.

Re: # 34

How about Varahamihir, Aryabhatt, Katyayan, Sushrut?

Would you write about them? I do not know anything about you, but they are likely
to be your progenitors than Arabs.
Hope you will write an article about them someday with equal, if not more pride as
part of your history.

Re: # 34

gill sahib,

....... thank you for calling me a kafir :) ..... i feel honored