Decline of Science in the Muslim World

#95 teshah

[Of course, Quran says, “Those who do not use their ‘aql’ (I could not find a suitable word for it in English) are worst than animals’.]
I suppose, Mr. Shah, it is possible to make the point that these GORAS have NO concept of aql – to the extent that they don’t even have an easy-to-find word for it! This intriguing remark of yours made me so curious that I went to your interactor page and was suitably impressed by the revelation that you are one of the original creators of (or at least pioneers for) Pakistan and that you once “had a passion for Pakistan to the extent of `Janoon`.” Out of curiosity, after Pakistan did get created, (and since you still seem to have an e-mail address from India) what was it that held you back in India so you were unable to “follow your passion?”

[In a nutshell it says that you should use ‘aql’ only to know that the prophet was truthful and then suspend it altogether. This the Muslims have actually been doing for the last over a thousand years. It is indeed surprising that they are still surviving with their aql suspended and even multiplying.]
How about turning that argument around a little bit and explaining whether YOU were doing anything different (than suspending aql) fifty nine years ago, when you were venting your “junoon” – giving birth to your passion, that incomparable flower of today – (And I don’t believe you should pass that “honorable credit” to a whole fictitious “failed generation” – shouldn’t that level of high accomplishment strictly be accorded to the individuals that were directly responsible – who brought it about with their own hands – whether high as Iqbal badshah or low as a mere Shah?!)

Dear Mr Gill,

Iqbal couplet is


Behtar hai dil ke pas rahe, pasban-e-aql

More over I did not like you choosing your ancestors in the desert of arabia instead of sub continent. But I respect your chosing.

i think the reason for decline in science in muslim world is due to lack of replication of books at that time, more then thousand of books of muslim scientist philosophers etc were either burn and destroyed when christian reclaimed spain, no one knew what was inside those books. Some books which christain army confisticated were later cross examined and what they fought was never reveled to the world. If say replica of these books were present elsewhere in the world it would be quiet impossible for science among muslim world to decline. Information was free at that time but it was made limited

Questions about the above article:

(1) How come people of Pakistan are inspired by Muslim scientists, but not by people like Panini (whose linguistics was not equalled until the mid-19th century) or Taxila University?

(2) Does the answer to question (1) answer why people are looking for an ``Islamic Science`` and why there is no science in Muslim countries today?

Possible answers to the above

(1) Illiberality: inability to admire accomplishments of non-Muslims
(2) Illiberality can never lead to good science. After all, in the golden age of ``Islamic science`` Muslim scientists were not afraid to generously appreciate scientists of other cultures whether they were Chinese or Indian.

arstoo:

Thanks for the correction. I should have consulted Baang-e-dara before writing that couplet. I wrote it from memory which seems to be failing now in my old age.

Mohammad Gill

sunlight:

If you have some useful information about Hindu scientists and mathematicians send it to Yvette Rosser (read my post # 90).

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 91

Sigh...not you too..godot...

Chowk has too many ``self-appointed class monitors`` who come here & stand in ``moral`` judgement`` of other interactors. Worse than that...with they come up with their own idiotic psychodynamics to explain why they despise my character.

Not that there is anything wrong with it; ofcourse...you are entitled to your own opinion of me. Afterall..there is no shortage of people in this world who love to stand in judgement of others. IMHO, people who are least qualified to judge others, usually do the most judging...in this cruel world.. The reality...thank God...is that only Allah is qualified to judge us...certainly not some butthead on Chowk...

So...please go ahead & throw your rotten tomatoes, at me...i`m a big boy...i can take it...after all, if i throw rotten tomatoes at others...i should hardly be living in a glass house......besides...i didnt realise there was a popularity contest on Chowk..

Y`see, ``self-esteem`` for a mature adult is what one thinks of oneself...not what others think of me...rest assured..I`ll trust the judgement of the Almighty...if HE calls me a bi-got & a sinner...I`ll start crapping in my pants...certainly not thou or mr Blow Job..

Think about it...whats the difference between you( or Blow Job)...& a mullah...who admonishes & fatwas a ``blasphemer``?....its a slippery slope; kid....

Hypothetically, if BlowJob was a ``mullah``...& Chowk was Pakistan...this self-appointed guardian of ``civility`` at a website in cyberspace....would brand me as a blasphemer, someone sick of mind... devoid of ``proper`` upbringing...an apostate who deserves to be ``locked up`` & killed...

Thank ALLAH that THIS Chowk is in cyberspace...not a real Chowk in Bihar....otherwise this self-appointed mullah.... or his cohort ``President for life`` Lalloo.... would have me killed for defying the dominant discourse of what he believes is ``civility`` ...or ``political`` & ``moral`` & ``speech`` correctness...if anyone dares to defy it....trust me ALL democracies are imperfect...but these frikkin Biharis take imperfections to heights its never seen before..

the powerful in Bihar see to it that such ``undesirables`` are either ``done away with``...or run out of that blighted state...i`m vicariously ASHAMED...as a hindu... that the descendants of Lord Krishna act worse than the frikkin Bihari brahmins (who are bad ENOUGH)...they are a blot on India...worse than that.... a blot on hinduism...

.not that Mr Blow Job is either a brahmin or a yadav or a frikkin neanderthal......but it annoys the heck out of me; that he acts like a goddamned mullah on this hallowed ground of freedom...called Chowk...

dunno why...he thinks all my hostility is cos i was molested in childhood...rotfl...the bugger cant make it as a psychiatrist...& he thinks he can talk for Lord Krishna....

Khuda Hafiz

#102 by freethinker
If you have some useful information about Hindu scientists and mathematicians send it to Yvette Rosser
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not sure why you think I have such information; what she is looking for is information to be presented in a workshop, so I assume she is looking for original presentations by professionals, not general information such as an amateur like myself would possess.

In any case, that was not the point I was trying to make. I have a different viewpoint on the subject that you wrote about; since you did not address it, I assume that we have to agree to differ.

Re: # 92

hahaha..

you da` man...hamid!...i owe you a merlot at mccormicks...

{{you can accuse us of narcissism but not bigotry}}

Yup...thats right!..y`see... Allah has spared a lowly brahmin & a proud descendant of Lord Ram.... the IDIOCY of these sanctimonious buttheads...

A narcicisst is a guy who thinks his s*it dont stink...mine stinks to high heaven...but certainly not as much as an unmentionable bihari!:)

OK OK...lets just appoint Mr Temporal to be ``official`` class monitor of Chowk... he owes me a malt, anyways....maybe he wont be so cruel

Re: # 93

{{If that were geographically possible at all, it’s perhaps not that bad of a deal!}}

Wow! pope godot has SOME brain cells.... left!...I guess Allah hasnt put the cerebral cortex in every katlu`s prepuce...after all!!

ps...are you quite SURE you want bihar? ...hey! shhh... i know a guy who can give you a great ``inside`` deal on the brooklyn bridge..shhh...only for you...is-special price...

ooops...i`m sorry...freethinker sahib...you were saying...

Re#103 by shankar

My beloved darling S3,

It is SO good to see you back in one piece – I am glad that nobody made mincemeat or road-kill out of you during your sadness-induced road-runner-like driving through the highways of MI yesterday.

To say the least, it breaks my heart to see you cry on the shoulders of Godot – as your years of hard work put into building up this image of the fictional “tough guy” lay broken into tiny particles for the whole world to see.

Do not cry my lost soul-mate of yesteryears, you SHALL live to flight another day! Feel free to down those pills of Wellbutrin – so you won’t drown perpetually in pools of putrid pity for your pretty petty performance – perhaps permanently!

For what it’s worth (Sorry, Paul Harvey!) has it ever occurred to you that when you focus your so much (oh, SO much) attention on one trivial interactor (like I), how much attention you take away from the message behind this serious article that dear Dr. Gill (who although occasionally a little shrill, is no small pill, even though HE doesn’t help foot your bill) belabored so hard to give birth to!

When you do so, you make slips. And how often you slip! Let me give you just ONE shining example:

“…hamid & gill make a hell of a lot of sense...” (from #72 by S3)

Alas, your shrunken-ness, if only you had actually bothered to READ the article and the flow of interactions – you would realize that those two (forever formidable) entities at chowk were on OPPOSITE sides of the issue being discussed at that point in time – therefore, it’s the absolute height of ignorance to say that BOTH make sense – any more than saying that it is both day and night at a given time!

Before closing, I can not but correct one of the many (alas, too many) negative perceptions you appear to hold of my native land – born out of what most likely is sheer ignorance. I draw your attention to one of your earlier remarks on another board where you referred to the vast treasure of mineral riches of Bihar. Alas, how you misjudge – realizing little that except for the little that certain political luminaries may have managed to salvage on a personal basis, all those minerals have been snatched away by the state of Jharkhand!

And regarding your heart-felt recommendation that Bihar should secede from India and join one of its neighbors – I can give you my personal assurance that will NEVER happen – it’s just too much fun to stay within India and rile up the likes of you!

Last but not least
[...he thinks all my hostility is cos i was molested in childhood...]
I absolutely apologize for reviving your painful memories – believe me (as I said to Mr. Teshah, I feel like that Bill Clinton when I say that “I feel your pain!”)

Loving you forever,
BeeJay.

sunlight:

If you were sufficiently motivated, you could find out the original soucres, see if any of them is accessible to you, delve into it and see if you come up with some reasonable information. You find only when you search.

I know very little about Panini and if I understood correctly from your post, he did some significant work in linguistics. Unfortunately, I am not very much interested in linguistics. So if you want exposure on Panini, take time, collect information and write. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Mr Gill

It is right to look at the causes of decline of learning in the muslim world but it is wrong to think that muslims were the only ones unable to achieve modern science. This failure was common to the Indic, Sino, Slavic, Muslim and other civilisations, the only one to achieve it was West European even here the momentum shifted from northern Italy to the Germanic races (Anglo Saxons, Dutch, Franks/Gauls and Germania proper) as protestant reform took root there.

There were a number of reasons for this, some of which Huff mentions like the development of neutral spaces like the corporation and the university which were less subject to interference since the state could be played off against the church. others he does not like the impact of Gutenburgs printing press which increased the number of books in western europe from a few thousands to lakhs in a decade or two.

Neither does he mention the power of economics for culture and science both need money, thus science shifted from the rich venice and florence to the productive north. similarly he does not stress on the constant military warfare because the greatest advancements and applications have taken place due to the neccessities of war, the importance of scientists and engineers to the European monarchs for both warfare (da vinci and galilio marketed themselves as military engineers to their patrons) and for predicting their astrological futures which led them to support them against the church.

Also of importance were the indented coastline and broad river systems of western europe which encouraged economic trade and the division of europe into a number of equally balanced kingdoms england, France, hapsburg etc which could fight but not knock out the other and that of italy into a number of welll balanced city states genoa, florence etc.

The benefits of trade and mechanical advancement becoming apparent to the general public and more importantly the businessman/farmer in a self reinforcing cycle partly due to their interaction with the east and then due to their desire to trade with them. For example large ship building which facilitated the discovery of the americas (which in turn was a spurt to scientific advancement) was possible due to large gallies developed to cary on trade with the east as well as to carry heavier and more numerous canon for warfare.

The church itself became more inclined to explore the world around them due to the theology of Thomas Aquinas who encouraged christian scholars to explore the glories of Gods wonderous world in the 11th/12th century. The discovery of the heritage of the ancient greeks philosophy, mathematics and history and that of the advancements made by muslim civilisation in mechanics, mathematics, medicine etc spurred the west on as well.

The protestant reformations role in the shift from southern to western europe should not be underestimated. It was due to the protestant ethic of trying to improve this world, ones own position and that of ones community that so much application driven improvements took place, it also legitimised hard work in the pursuit of business and accumulation of wealth as well as seeking knowledge for its own sake and thuis took forward the rennaissance ideals of the celebration of humanity which drove so much of the italian rennaisance, which itself was a result of the long suppression of mans inner nature by the church and the consequent discovery of greek philosophy through the crusades.

The protestant reformation also translated the bible and made it mandatory for each person to sek his own path to god instead of depending upon a church father to act as an intermediary through a Latin bible, and here too Gutenberg is important because his invention made the translated bible cheaply available to the masses.

Hence the unique nature of the church and the long church - state conflict over a thousand years had an important effect on the development of western europe. one must also not underestimate the role of rich merchants who gave money for practical and nonpractical advances and applications and these merchants in turn were created by the trade within and without (especialy the east). the merchants also gave loans to the monarchs for their warfare as well as taxes for the same purpose and in return wrested political concessions from them which slowly evolved into responsible government.

Thus the development of western europe and of science along with that was the result of a unique set of historical circumstances: geographical, cultural, social, religious, political and economic which were not duplicated elsewhere wether in muslim lands or in china, and Huff says so by pointing out how another advanced civilisation, i.e. that of china was unable to make the leap either.


Mr.Arastoo

there is a practical impediment to identifying with hindu scientists and that is the lack of historical chronicals in the Indic civilisation so there is not a large amount of data available on the achievement of hindu scholars infact a large part of what we know of them comes through the muslims themselves. and most of the muslim scholars were not arabs even though they had arab pseudonyms, they were people stretching over a wide territory from Iran and central asia to spain.

hindvi:

Thanks for your pertinent comments.

Mohammad Gill

#110 Hindvi

[It is right to look at the causes of decline of learning in the muslim world but it is wrong to think that muslims were the only ones unable to achieve modern science.]
Pray point to me the point in the article where the great Gill gushes such a point – and if you can not, how about just taking a chill pill –to prevent any ill will!

Raining on a ``retirement party``, for crying out loud!