Muslims and the Road to Perdition

Re: # 226

Buddha and buddha-nature are terms that are used interchangably in buddhist and zen texts and philosophy.

Buddha: The Enlightened One
Buddha-nature: The basic essence of purity living with all organisms. Zen practice reveals this intrinsic nature. It is not something that requires ``seeking``; rather it is always with us.

- SS

``Buddha is the ultimate supreme present in every being.``

There is no limit to ignorance and selling of the snake oil.

samirfs #223 ``And when we start talking about the practical nature only and forget the ``hidden`` fundamental, that`s when the problems arise. ``

I see the ``hidden`` part as icing on the cake, not as part of the cake itself. That is, going beyond the practical aspects (simple, but hugely important, things like the quest for learning, honesty, mercy, and so forth), one enters into the realm of wonder at creation - the veils behind veils that the scientists are busy lifting and revealing the incredible glory of creation at the sub-atomic and at the cosmos levels. That is the icing on the cake. But, for now, given the primitive, deluded state of the muslim world, misled by centuries of abuse by kings, maulvis and distorted by sharia and so forth - that icing on the cake is too much to ask for. Just understanding the basics and trying to live up to them is a challenge enough for the muslim world. The icing is for scientists around the world to understand and appreciate.

tahmed32

Sufis play tricks with both Hindus and Muslims - they follow neither Hinduism nor Islam. Yet, they have caused untold damage to Hindus through their doublespeak, and through their sustained trickery.

The tragedy is that vast majority of Hindus continue to respect these sufis, more than most Muslims do. Next to the caste system, this is the most debilitating weakness of Hinduism.

I may be wrong, but I believe that the greatest enemies of Hindus and Hinduism are these fraudulent people, these sufis. Most Muslims know that Sufism is not Islam. I believe that relations between Hindus and Muslims will vastly improve if Sufism is exposed to be what it is - anything but Islam.

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Samirfs

You have no idea what fundamentals are. And you don`t need a million pages, as you claim, to isolate the basic fundamentals of any religion.

Re: # 222

tahmed:

I agree that the guidelines prescribed in Islam to understand the fundamentals are of a very practical nature. The practicality of Islam is the foremost thing that attracts me to it. And I also agree that the fundamentals are not elusive ................ but to only those who want to see! Why else do you think so many of us are missing the point?
And when we start talking about the practical nature only and forget the ``hidden`` fundamental, that`s when the problems arise.

Though I am averse to being labelled a ``sufi``, I will not completely deny it, because of my preoccupation with the Fundamentals only.

- SS

dost mittar/kaalchakra: i think you vastly overrate the interest of muslims in converting others to islam. being comfortable as a muslim and appreciative of its fundamentals (which are not as elusive as samirfs thinks) is not equivalent to proselytizing.

as for these fundamentals of islam, they are very well explained in a few pages by the bestselling book from Huston Smith ``The World`s Religions``. islam is not rocket science we are talking here, as samirfs and others of the sufi bent of mind seem to think. nor is islam an evil religion, as too many indians proclaim day in day out on chowk.

Re: # 220

Dost,

I know the concept of Buddha quite well. Thank you.
Buddha is the ultimate supreme present in every being. And we all should aspire to reach that Ultimate. Only Siddharth is said to have attained that unison and thus attained Nirvana. In Islam the culmination of the union of Rooh (spirit) and Allah is Death ...... which by the way is not a dark word in Islam.

- SS

kaalchakra. samirfs:

Interesting discussion between the two of you. Carry on.....


samirfs:

Please leave Buddha out of this discussion about God-Wod. He did not make any statement about God or even acknowledged Its existence. `Buddha` just means the ``Enlightened one``. Before he became Buddha, he was just a seeker of truth, just like you seem to be. And if you ever obtain the enlightenment you seem to be seeking, you, too, could be called a ``Buddha``.

kaalchakra:

``I wouldn`t assume you were just making up all this Islamic aham brhamasmi stuff (although in the long and glorious history of Sufism, outright lying and deception was never an uncommon trick).``

Most Hindus have accepted this nonsense of nice and kind sufis converting Hindus to Islam with their message of love and peace and of all religions being nice and good. What nonsense! If they believed that all religions were good and had the same message, then why did they ask anyone to convert to ``their`` religion instead of themselves converting to the other?

I can think of two Muslim sufis who really preached a message of love and peace, Kabir and Sai Baba of Shirdi. While Kabir dohas are a must in every bhajneek`s collection and are sung all the time in mandirs and gurudwaras, I do not see many Muslims who sing his dohas in their meetings. And perhaps none of the followers of Sai Baba of Shirdi is a Muslim. The reason? Neither Kabir nor Sai Baba tried to convert any Hindu to Islam, so they were practically useless from a Muslim point of view and could not be counted among the ``true sufis`` who converted kafirs with their message of ``love and peace``.

Re: # 217

Oh OK!! now I know where all the venom is spewing from ....
No, dear friend, I am not at all a proselityzer. Please rest assured. I have no interest in such unethical deeds at all.

And like I told you, I am not a good writer or speaker or presenter of ideas ............ so OK ............... think what you may. Say what you may all over the web-posts about me ............. Spew out all that you may have against me ............ go on ..... I give a rat`s ass.
I am not here to convince anybody about anything ........... just to learn and exchange thoughts .......... not here for a debate either .............. just to learn (sometimes critical inquiry is mistaken for a debate, mind you) ..........

But why am I explaining all this to you??!!

May Peace be with you.

- SS

PS: Hope to read your ``high thoughts`` about me in tomorrow`s posts.

I would still await information on where Prophet Mohammad said: ``Whoever knows himself knows God`` and about the context in which the statement was made.

I wouldn`t assume you were just making up all this Islamic aham brhamasmi stuff (although in the long and glorious history of Sufism, outright lying and deception was never an uncommon trick).

Samirfs

When you start claiming that atma is rooh and ``aham brahmasmi`` is part of Islam, you had better defend it. Otherwise, you end up as just another in a long list of fraudulent personalities who used every trick to fool people into converting to Islam.

My dear friend, you do your research, and you read your books, and when you know what you are talking about, we can carry on this discussion further.

Re: # 215


``He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.`` Quran [32:9]

Here we are talking about the concept of ``Rooh`` ..... ever heard that word? It`s the spirit of a man ........ Aatman, you may call it. Allah created man and put a part of His spirit in man .... so the connection between Rooh and Allah is right there from the inception of man itself ......... like Aatman and Brahman.

As for your other questions, I would recommend you to do some research and reading on your own. That`s the best way to, that`s how I learn.

I am not a good writer, orator or teacher .............. all I can do is think. So sorry, I won`t be able to help you much in the learning.

- Samir Shaikh

I am so glad (indeed thankful) that you are taking this further. I am genuinely interested in your ideas.

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So, this fundamental - this aham brahmasmi - is not in Quran but in one of the Hadiths? What is this Hadith and what is its context?

What does the Quran - the real word of God - say? And according to the Quran, how will one know that one`s will is not in unison with God`s will?

Re: # 213

Kaalchakra, let me take the liberty of ``editing`` your post a bit, and presenting it ............ we are getting close ..... really close.

You wrote:
``Islam brought no new message. The Prophet revealed only a new interpretation of existing religion(s). A new Prophet could come again, offering a newer ``interpretation`` of existing religions (including Islam). This new `interpretation` could supersede these existing religions, and could then be called something else.``

I reply:

``Islam brought no new fundamental message. The Prophet revealed only a new explanation of existing fundamental(s). A new Prophet could come again, offering a newer ``explanation`` of existing fundamentals (including the ones already proposed in Islam). This new `explanation` could add to the existing religions, and could then be called something else.``

Quite possible!

{``Whoever knows himself knows God.`` - Muhammad (PBUH)

That is a wonderful thing to say. Very Indian - very aham brahmasmi.

Did Prophet Muhammad say that, or is it your ``interpretation?`` What did he mean by that? Haven`t heard many accomplished quranists provide that quote before.}

That`s a quote not from the Quran, but from the Hadith (sayings and conduct of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Otherwise I would have mentioned the chapter and verse number. That`s a fundamental that the Prophet revealed in more clearer words .....

And yes, I could also have given you the example of unity of Brahman and Aatman to emphasise my point about self and God and Aham and Buddha.

{Taking that logic further - if God is (inside) self, and if one should do God`s will, then one should do one`s own will.}

Yes indeed. IF your will and God`s will are in unison.

Sheikh Sahib, if one understands you right, you believe that Islam brought no new message. The Prophet revealed only a new interpretation of existing religion(s). A new Prophet could come again, offering a newer ``interpretation`` of existing religions (including Islam). This new `interpretation` could supersede these existing religions, and could then be called something else.

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``Whoever knows himself knows God.`` - Muhammad (PBUH)

That is a wonderful thing to say. Very Indian - very aham brahmasmi.

Did Prophet Muhammad say that, or is it your ``interpretation?`` What did he mean by that? Haven`t heard many accomplished quranists provide that quote before.

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Taking that logic further - if God is (inside) self, and if one should do God`s will, then one should do one`s own will.

Right?

Re: # 209

Why do you keep asking wrong questions my friend? First learn to ask the right questions .... rest is easy. First I have to correct you question .... and then answer .....

{But do you believe that a prophet could possibly come to show you a new and better way, offering you a new and better religion than Islam?}

The question should be, ``Do you believe that a Prophet could possibly come to make you better understand the Fundamentals?``

(Because Islam, and any other religion is perfect and complete in itself and so were the Prophet`S` messages.)

Everything that needed to be said and revealed has already been done.

The answer is: Who knows? If someone comes along, and helps us take a step closer to the fundamentals, good for the human race. But for now, lets concentrate on the present tools and try to find the way ourselves. Who knows, tomorrow a biologist or a physisict may say UEREKA and reveal Einstein` Grand Unified Theory ............... and then sudddenly we will see clearly what the prophet`S` or the holy books had been saying all along.

{A buddhist who understands the fundamentals must accept that we should act in accordance with the will of God. Kyon, shekih sahib?}

Because a muslim believes, ``Whoever knows himself knows God.`` - Muhammad (PBUH)
The buddhists believe that the Buddha is within you. Know your buddha. I being a muslim I know myself..... then I know God ............. and being a Buddhist if I know myself and perfect myself, I know the Buddha.