Saudi Government to Demolish Prophet Muhammed’s home
Farzan Mahmood August 20, 2005
#126 Posted by dost_mittar on August 27, 2005 1:36:15 pm
Thanks, rajanjua.
I knew about the shia persecution, though recent reports suggest some relief, but did not know that they were not allowed freedom to practice their faith. Hence my question.
I knew about the shia persecution, though recent reports suggest some relief, but did not know that they were not allowed freedom to practice their faith. Hence my question.
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#125 Posted by r.a.janjua on August 27, 2005 1:01:39 pm
re: 124
doing fine dost-mittar - thanks.
shias and othe sunni sects (but especially the shia) are persecuted in saudi while the aulad of abdul aziz (bastards most of them - both figuratively and literaly) are living a life of obscene luxury from oil which comes from the shia area - i think w. made a big mistake - he should have gone south of kuwait.
doing fine dost-mittar - thanks.
shias and othe sunni sects (but especially the shia) are persecuted in saudi while the aulad of abdul aziz (bastards most of them - both figuratively and literaly) are living a life of obscene luxury from oil which comes from the shia area - i think w. made a big mistake - he should have gone south of kuwait.
#124 Posted by dost_mittar on August 27, 2005 5:56:46 am
r.a.janjua:
What brought this `Id ka Chaand` out of hiding? Hope you are doing okay?
``and these are the same people who do not allow practise of other sects of islam inside the kingdom let alone other religions``
Does this also apply to Shias, sitting over some rich Saudi oilfields?
What brought this `Id ka Chaand` out of hiding? Hope you are doing okay?
``and these are the same people who do not allow practise of other sects of islam inside the kingdom let alone other religions``
Does this also apply to Shias, sitting over some rich Saudi oilfields?
#123 Posted by r.a.janjua on August 26, 2005 9:39:22 pm
re: 119
thanks tahmed
re: 122
the saudis were the first to raise their moral outrage on the news of marines flushing korans down the toilet in gitmo - and these are the same people who do not allow practise of other sects of islam inside the kingdom let alone other religions. there are no churches, temples, etc. in saudi arabia - if you are caught with religious texts of other religions (bible, etc.) you are in deep doo-doo. forget about taking icons like the cross or ganesh with you - you cant even practise your faith in the privacy of your home - some half a dozen or so pakistani christians are still missing - they were arrested for holding a service at a private residence - and yet they want a fully hooded picture on a u.s. state driving license for their women. these people are quite sick.
re: 26 ``Right now, I`d support an American invasion of Riyadh to topple the Saudis.``
there is nothing in riyadh, except some sorry excuses for humans called bedoos. the place you want to go is east of riyadh - the oilfields of ghawar, safaniyah, ain-dar shedgum, marjan, al-hasa in general. u.s. should sieze the oil fields and declare hijaz an international zone for muslims all over the world. the bedoos can go back to that hell-hole najd they call home.
re: 40 ``even the king was buried in an unmarked grave, in keeping with their own particular orthodoxy``
these people are obssessed with graves. when abdul aziz invaded hejaz with his ikhwan hordes, there was a serious debate on whether to blow up masjid-i-nabwi or not - i mean talk about biddat - three graves within a masjid - now that is a biddat for the wahabis - in the end they didnt have the guts to do it - they did destroy every other tomb - janat-ul-baqih is nothing but an array of unmarked mounds - thankfully there are some old maps made during the turkish rule which can be used to identify various sites.
re: 53 ``Thank God that in 1917, the retreating Turks took most of the portable Islamic relics back to Istanbul from Medina``
thank god for kemal pasha - who at least had the guts to look for alternatives to the nonsense accumulated by abdullahs over the centuries.
re: 54 ``How can we mobilize the Chowk community to spread the word and to take action?``
sorry to dissapoint you, but the ummah is quite impotent or baighairat or both - besides most muslim countries have been a saudi whore at some point in time in the last two decades.
thanks tahmed
re: 122
the saudis were the first to raise their moral outrage on the news of marines flushing korans down the toilet in gitmo - and these are the same people who do not allow practise of other sects of islam inside the kingdom let alone other religions. there are no churches, temples, etc. in saudi arabia - if you are caught with religious texts of other religions (bible, etc.) you are in deep doo-doo. forget about taking icons like the cross or ganesh with you - you cant even practise your faith in the privacy of your home - some half a dozen or so pakistani christians are still missing - they were arrested for holding a service at a private residence - and yet they want a fully hooded picture on a u.s. state driving license for their women. these people are quite sick.
re: 26 ``Right now, I`d support an American invasion of Riyadh to topple the Saudis.``
there is nothing in riyadh, except some sorry excuses for humans called bedoos. the place you want to go is east of riyadh - the oilfields of ghawar, safaniyah, ain-dar shedgum, marjan, al-hasa in general. u.s. should sieze the oil fields and declare hijaz an international zone for muslims all over the world. the bedoos can go back to that hell-hole najd they call home.
re: 40 ``even the king was buried in an unmarked grave, in keeping with their own particular orthodoxy``
these people are obssessed with graves. when abdul aziz invaded hejaz with his ikhwan hordes, there was a serious debate on whether to blow up masjid-i-nabwi or not - i mean talk about biddat - three graves within a masjid - now that is a biddat for the wahabis - in the end they didnt have the guts to do it - they did destroy every other tomb - janat-ul-baqih is nothing but an array of unmarked mounds - thankfully there are some old maps made during the turkish rule which can be used to identify various sites.
re: 53 ``Thank God that in 1917, the retreating Turks took most of the portable Islamic relics back to Istanbul from Medina``
thank god for kemal pasha - who at least had the guts to look for alternatives to the nonsense accumulated by abdullahs over the centuries.
re: 54 ``How can we mobilize the Chowk community to spread the word and to take action?``
sorry to dissapoint you, but the ummah is quite impotent or baighairat or both - besides most muslim countries have been a saudi whore at some point in time in the last two decades.
#122 Posted by harimau on August 25, 2005 1:08:18 pm
Ref mohar11 #114
[The real question is - why are the Muslims from Morocco to Malysia NOT raising a huge hue and cry? Imagine if non-muslims did the demolition - threat of jihad would be flying all over the place.]
The demolition, in alikelihood, was done by a non-Muslim.
It would probably be a Filipina or Indian who drove the bulldozer.
Lesson #1: Advani should have hired an Ahmad in Ayodhya to drive a bulldozer instead of using a mob of karsevaks.
[The real question is - why are the Muslims from Morocco to Malysia NOT raising a huge hue and cry? Imagine if non-muslims did the demolition - threat of jihad would be flying all over the place.]
The demolition, in alikelihood, was done by a non-Muslim.
It would probably be a Filipina or Indian who drove the bulldozer.
Lesson #1: Advani should have hired an Ahmad in Ayodhya to drive a bulldozer instead of using a mob of karsevaks.
#121 Posted by KaalChakra on August 25, 2005 9:52:44 am
.......lofty art work destroyed and replaced with bathroom tiles in many gurudwaras.
Really?? What a shame. And now, I recall, some really very old temples in and around our village cleared many years ago to make space for new houses :(
It really hurts to think that my children will never know, not even be able to imagine, what was so very important to me in my childhood...
Amazingly detailed, impressive architecture, artwork....all gone without a trace.
Really?? What a shame. And now, I recall, some really very old temples in and around our village cleared many years ago to make space for new houses :(
It really hurts to think that my children will never know, not even be able to imagine, what was so very important to me in my childhood...
Amazingly detailed, impressive architecture, artwork....all gone without a trace.
#120 Posted by kaurasach on August 25, 2005 9:04:15 am
This is what happens when illiterate stupid and idiot goons become heads of a religion....sikh leaders and priests have destroyed sikh heritage as a monkeys destroy a corn field.......lofty art work destroyed and replaced with bathroom tiles in many gurudwaras.
#119 Posted by tahmed32 on August 25, 2005 5:05:15 am
#118 ``(slavery was legal in saudi arabia until the sixties, if my memory serves me right).``
1962, to be precise.
1962, to be precise.
#118 Posted by r.a.janjua on August 24, 2005 7:58:11 pm
why should one expect anything different from the saudis - these people are the most vulgarly primitive and culturly-challenged on the face of this earth (slavery was legal in saudi arabia until the sixties, if my memory serves me right). you talk about demolishing muhammad`s house - these bastards have, in the past demolished the ka`ba.
in about 50-70 years from now, the oil in al-hasa will be gone and these bedoos will go back to the desert where they belong along with their camels and that would be the end of the story. in the meantime what is more important is to let them know that there would be consequences if they continue to spread hate and ingnorance to the rest of the world.
in about 50-70 years from now, the oil in al-hasa will be gone and these bedoos will go back to the desert where they belong along with their camels and that would be the end of the story. in the meantime what is more important is to let them know that there would be consequences if they continue to spread hate and ingnorance to the rest of the world.
#117 Posted by premwalla on August 24, 2005 11:03:53 am
#116, {``but is derived from Elohim which was what Abraham is supposed to have called god... ``}
Manto,
At least we agree on this one. :)
Also, as I pointed out in my earlier post on this topic, Jesus is reported to have said in Aramaic ``Ilahi, Ilahi, La ma sabakhtian`` while dying on the cross.
Allah must be related to Elohim, Ilahi
Salim
Manto,
At least we agree on this one. :)
Also, as I pointed out in my earlier post on this topic, Jesus is reported to have said in Aramaic ``Ilahi, Ilahi, La ma sabakhtian`` while dying on the cross.
Allah must be related to Elohim, Ilahi
Salim
#115 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 23, 2005 1:19:37 pm
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#114 Posted by mohar11 on August 23, 2005 1:09:17 pm
DM
//...if Muslims from Morocco to Malysia are not raising a huge hue and cry about the demolition of the house, why should non-muslims?...//
The real question is - why are the Muslims from Morocco to Malysia NOT raising a huge hue and cry? Imagine if non-muslims did the demolition - threat of jihad would be flying all over the place.
//...if Muslims from Morocco to Malysia are not raising a huge hue and cry about the demolition of the house, why should non-muslims?...//
The real question is - why are the Muslims from Morocco to Malysia NOT raising a huge hue and cry? Imagine if non-muslims did the demolition - threat of jihad would be flying all over the place.
#113 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 23, 2005 1:01:29 pm
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#112 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 23, 2005 12:58:25 pm
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#111 Posted by tahmed32 on August 23, 2005 12:55:59 pm
dost mittar: I think the whole thing is a fake. like the shroud of turin, hazratbal, and mullah omar`s sacred blanket which he swore was originally the property of the prophet muhammed. the toronto star article refers to the prophet receiving the Quran in this house - I at least never heard of that before, and always understood that it was in a cave where the Quran was revealed to him.
#110 Posted by tahmed32 on August 23, 2005 12:49:43 pm
Mr. Chauhan,
The Saudi embassy proposes the following compromise solution: the are prepared to serve Dunkin Donuts made from specially formulated hilal dough, and to serve them with Mecca Cola (the popular muslim drink) rather than the heathen coffee. Would this be acceptable in Qustuntuniyah??
The Saudi embassy proposes the following compromise solution: the are prepared to serve Dunkin Donuts made from specially formulated hilal dough, and to serve them with Mecca Cola (the popular muslim drink) rather than the heathen coffee. Would this be acceptable in Qustuntuniyah??
#109 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 23, 2005 11:50:47 am
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#106 Posted by dost_mittar on August 23, 2005 11:25:41 am
Muslims alone can decide whether or not there is any sancitity attached to the Prophet`s house. Non-Muslims may not regard Mohammad to be a prophet or may not even regard his message to be one of love and peace, but they still would have to acknowledge that he was one of the most influential persons in the history of mankind who had and continues to have a profound impact on the lives not only of Muslims but also of Non-Muslims. Therefore, one could argue that his house needs to be protected as a unique world heritage; I am surprised that UNESCO has not designated as a world heritage monument.
All said and done, however, if Muslims from Morocco to Malysia are not raising a huge hue and cry about the demolition of the house, why should non-muslims?
All said and done, however, if Muslims from Morocco to Malysia are not raising a huge hue and cry about the demolition of the house, why should non-muslims?
#108 Posted by Netizen on August 23, 2005 11:39:13 am
Re: # 106
``but they still would have to acknowledge that he was one of the most influential persons in the history of mankind who had and continues to have a profound impact on the lives not only of Muslims but also of Non-Muslims.I am surprised that UNESCO has not designated as a world heritage monument. ``
Hitler was the most influential man of the 20th century. He changed the fate of billions of lives (directly and indirectly) in the shortest possible period. If he had won the war, maybe we would been talking german now (if still alive). May be, UNESCO should designate his bunker also as a world heritage monument.
``but they still would have to acknowledge that he was one of the most influential persons in the history of mankind who had and continues to have a profound impact on the lives not only of Muslims but also of Non-Muslims.I am surprised that UNESCO has not designated as a world heritage monument. ``
Hitler was the most influential man of the 20th century. He changed the fate of billions of lives (directly and indirectly) in the shortest possible period. If he had won the war, maybe we would been talking german now (if still alive). May be, UNESCO should designate his bunker also as a world heritage monument.
#105 Posted by mannu404 on August 23, 2005 10:59:58 am
104, //Yet no jihad? just write and talk? //
Mohar,
Mr. Hamidm2 and Mr. Salim are writing. Please join them. Diaolgue better than violence.
Shanti Ohm. :)
Thank you
Mohar,
Mr. Hamidm2 and Mr. Salim are writing. Please join them. Diaolgue better than violence.
Shanti Ohm. :)
Thank you
#101 Posted by premwalla on August 23, 2005 9:27:26 am
#99, Ya Shaikh Taleb Bin Sood, Amir-ul-Kullul Kelbiyeen, Light of the World (200 watts!)
Assalaam-o-Alaikium wah Rahmatullah was Barkatuhu,
Your Footcandleship:
Shukran for your kind response to my steamed colleague, Sayyad Hamidm, Do Number Walla. All I can say at this time is ``Lahore Vilayet Kuwait. :( ``
Sayyad Hamidm Doyam merely asked for preservation of old house of Holy Prophet (PBUH) in Medain. My extinguished friend did not plead for long venom-filled lecture on habitat of converted Indoos bashing head on walls while listening to Qawwalis and going wee wee on mazaars after drinking bhang and smoking hash.
Also you invoke name of ``Allahdamn`` in our business. Some of us Persianized converted Indoos prefer to say ``Khudadamn`` instead, but that is another problem. I must remind you that the word ``Qawwal`` is Arabic in origin - I am, of course, no entymologist, because I do not specialize in study of incest. You called us converted Indoos ``perverted heathens.`` May I also remind you that you are the perverted people who taught us to go jiggy jiggy with our own cousins. I remember you very well from Houston nightclubs, when you were student at Oakey from Fanokey school in Oklahoma. You know why Texas does not fall into Gulf of Mexico? Because Oklahoma sucks.
You go ahead build Walmart, Kmart, Dunkin Donuts, or anyother American franchised structure, you can even build your own Bunny Ranch for all we care. After all, we have Heera Mandi in Lahore and have major expansion project that will tear down the Fort, the Badshahi Mosque, Ranjit Singh`s resting place, and Iqbal Sialkoti`s Khwabgah. You can build your own fast food joint with drive through and high canopy for camel traffic. It`s your country Khuda Dammit!
In closing, I would like to say that one day I hope to pour my sacred Indoo urine on your resting place. But I hear that you Wahobbies don`t mark your grave, so I won`t know where to aim. Well, good move on your part. Too bad, Americans don`t care about your dexterity at debauchery as long as you have that slippery oily rectum.
Khuda (How do you like that, you Arab?) Hafiz ya Shaikh Habibi wa Tarqa al-Kelbi.
Salim ``Converted Indoo`` Chauhan :)
Assalaam-o-Alaikium wah Rahmatullah was Barkatuhu,
Your Footcandleship:
Shukran for your kind response to my steamed colleague, Sayyad Hamidm, Do Number Walla. All I can say at this time is ``Lahore Vilayet Kuwait. :( ``
Sayyad Hamidm Doyam merely asked for preservation of old house of Holy Prophet (PBUH) in Medain. My extinguished friend did not plead for long venom-filled lecture on habitat of converted Indoos bashing head on walls while listening to Qawwalis and going wee wee on mazaars after drinking bhang and smoking hash.
Also you invoke name of ``Allahdamn`` in our business. Some of us Persianized converted Indoos prefer to say ``Khudadamn`` instead, but that is another problem. I must remind you that the word ``Qawwal`` is Arabic in origin - I am, of course, no entymologist, because I do not specialize in study of incest. You called us converted Indoos ``perverted heathens.`` May I also remind you that you are the perverted people who taught us to go jiggy jiggy with our own cousins. I remember you very well from Houston nightclubs, when you were student at Oakey from Fanokey school in Oklahoma. You know why Texas does not fall into Gulf of Mexico? Because Oklahoma sucks.
You go ahead build Walmart, Kmart, Dunkin Donuts, or anyother American franchised structure, you can even build your own Bunny Ranch for all we care. After all, we have Heera Mandi in Lahore and have major expansion project that will tear down the Fort, the Badshahi Mosque, Ranjit Singh`s resting place, and Iqbal Sialkoti`s Khwabgah. You can build your own fast food joint with drive through and high canopy for camel traffic. It`s your country Khuda Dammit!
In closing, I would like to say that one day I hope to pour my sacred Indoo urine on your resting place. But I hear that you Wahobbies don`t mark your grave, so I won`t know where to aim. Well, good move on your part. Too bad, Americans don`t care about your dexterity at debauchery as long as you have that slippery oily rectum.
Khuda (How do you like that, you Arab?) Hafiz ya Shaikh Habibi wa Tarqa al-Kelbi.
Salim ``Converted Indoo`` Chauhan :)
#100 Posted by mannu404 on August 23, 2005 8:12:48 am
hamidm2 numbah ninety nine,
You so fonny man! Please show nice latterhead with Kingdam of Soodi Rabia on top. You know peaceful emblum with swords crossing and cutting down damned date tree. Also, please register my vote for dunkin donuts - please no more hilal kfc. That for all the murgha choos in Pakiland.
Shukran, ahlan wa sahlan,
Bukra min khair
You so fonny man! Please show nice latterhead with Kingdam of Soodi Rabia on top. You know peaceful emblum with swords crossing and cutting down damned date tree. Also, please register my vote for dunkin donuts - please no more hilal kfc. That for all the murgha choos in Pakiland.
Shukran, ahlan wa sahlan,
Bukra min khair
#99 Posted by hamidm2 on August 23, 2005 7:39:32 am
......... bismillah er rehman ur rahim ...........
ya rafiquee hamidm,
we are in receipt of your letter requesting that we do not pull down the prophet`s (pbuh) house on prince taleb bin saud street but regret to inform you that we cannot do that ........ why? ..... first, because it is none of your allahdamn business - if we want to tear down the kaaba and put up a walmart with a big parking lot around it, we will do it ............ secondly, because it is bad !...........
...............you hindoo converts have perverted the pure religion of our prohet (pbuh, his camel, and his ancestors) by indulging in shirk and bida ....... yes siree - i went to oklahoma state - yes siree, you have polluted islam with your horrible hindoo ways, your idol worship and qawalli singing ........... we know all about you and your heathen ways ....... once a heathen always a heathen! ...........
...............you converted people go to mazars and hang onto curtains, and beat your head against the wall, and cry and beg those dead faqirs for favors that only allah subhanwutallah and his daughters have the power to grant ......... you drink bhang and smoke hashis, and then whirl around like those decadent western party animals at a night club in houston ( oh, how i miss those days ) ............ this is not islam !...... islam is sad, it is austere, and it has no place for tourism or wild parties .......... in any case, why would you want to visit the prophet`s crib - it is not exactly donald trumps manhattan apartment and is a dump compared to snoop`s hizzle .......... sup dizzle, lets chizzle in the hizzle fo`shizzle ! ................
.......... so rafiquee, we regret to inform you that we will tear down the shack and put up a kfc or a dunkin donut instead .......... since we are a democracy, next monday we will be holding a referendum in the kigdom to ask the people if they want a kfc or a dunkin donut - only men over forty will be allowed to vote ......... and don`t even think of asking the americans to come and bomb us with b-52`s and daisy cutters like you did when our proteges, the taliban, pulled down those silly bamiyan buddhas........ we are not the taliban - we might look and act like them, but we have oil .............
sincerely,
prince taleb bin saud
minister of aniquities, culture and tourism
kingdom of saudi arabia
ya rafiquee hamidm,
we are in receipt of your letter requesting that we do not pull down the prophet`s (pbuh) house on prince taleb bin saud street but regret to inform you that we cannot do that ........ why? ..... first, because it is none of your allahdamn business - if we want to tear down the kaaba and put up a walmart with a big parking lot around it, we will do it ............ secondly, because it is bad !...........
...............you hindoo converts have perverted the pure religion of our prohet (pbuh, his camel, and his ancestors) by indulging in shirk and bida ....... yes siree - i went to oklahoma state - yes siree, you have polluted islam with your horrible hindoo ways, your idol worship and qawalli singing ........... we know all about you and your heathen ways ....... once a heathen always a heathen! ...........
...............you converted people go to mazars and hang onto curtains, and beat your head against the wall, and cry and beg those dead faqirs for favors that only allah subhanwutallah and his daughters have the power to grant ......... you drink bhang and smoke hashis, and then whirl around like those decadent western party animals at a night club in houston ( oh, how i miss those days ) ............ this is not islam !...... islam is sad, it is austere, and it has no place for tourism or wild parties .......... in any case, why would you want to visit the prophet`s crib - it is not exactly donald trumps manhattan apartment and is a dump compared to snoop`s hizzle .......... sup dizzle, lets chizzle in the hizzle fo`shizzle ! ................
.......... so rafiquee, we regret to inform you that we will tear down the shack and put up a kfc or a dunkin donut instead .......... since we are a democracy, next monday we will be holding a referendum in the kigdom to ask the people if they want a kfc or a dunkin donut - only men over forty will be allowed to vote ......... and don`t even think of asking the americans to come and bomb us with b-52`s and daisy cutters like you did when our proteges, the taliban, pulled down those silly bamiyan buddhas........ we are not the taliban - we might look and act like them, but we have oil .............
sincerely,
prince taleb bin saud
minister of aniquities, culture and tourism
kingdom of saudi arabia
#104 Posted by mohar11 on August 23, 2005 10:51:00 am
Re: # 98
//....Do write/talk to them and express your solidarity against the issue...//
Just ``write/talk``? No riots .. no fatwas ....No suicide bombing?
I remember - There is this shrine in Kashmir which holds Prophets hair [or so they claim] ... during good old days of jihad, freedom fighters were holed up there - indian army had to attack to flush them out. I remember the brouhaha generated at that time.... the call for jihad against hinoods could be heard far and wide across the lands of the faithfuls.
How come nobody is calling for jihad now? In Kashmir, that was just a hair - but here it`s the entire house, Prophet`s entire house is being dismantled. Yet no jihad? just write and talk?
//....Do write/talk to them and express your solidarity against the issue...//
Just ``write/talk``? No riots .. no fatwas ....No suicide bombing?
I remember - There is this shrine in Kashmir which holds Prophets hair [or so they claim] ... during good old days of jihad, freedom fighters were holed up there - indian army had to attack to flush them out. I remember the brouhaha generated at that time.... the call for jihad against hinoods could be heard far and wide across the lands of the faithfuls.
How come nobody is calling for jihad now? In Kashmir, that was just a hair - but here it`s the entire house, Prophet`s entire house is being dismantled. Yet no jihad? just write and talk?
#107 Posted by Netizen on August 23, 2005 11:31:28 am
Re: # 104
``There is this shrine in Kashmir which holds Prophets hair [or so they claim] ... ``
thats hazratbal.
``There is this shrine in Kashmir which holds Prophets hair [or so they claim] ... ``
thats hazratbal.
#94 Posted by harimau on August 22, 2005 4:22:05 pm
Ref Dalit #90
[Muslim sense of history is funky….hehehehe… Mohammed lived for 63 years most of it in Mecca. Never owned a property but house was his…..heheheh… Can Muslims declare all the pavements and streets he walked on in Mecca sacred? Hehehehe…Don’t allow any construction in Mecca…hehhehe….]
You know what I REALLY REALLY like about Muslims?
They killed Prophet Muhammad`s descendants.
Every single one of them.
Payback, hehehehe.
[Muslim sense of history is funky….hehehehe… Mohammed lived for 63 years most of it in Mecca. Never owned a property but house was his…..heheheh… Can Muslims declare all the pavements and streets he walked on in Mecca sacred? Hehehehe…Don’t allow any construction in Mecca…hehhehe….]
You know what I REALLY REALLY like about Muslims?
They killed Prophet Muhammad`s descendants.
Every single one of them.
Payback, hehehehe.
#93 Posted by KaalChakra on August 22, 2005 3:48:53 pm
re: Dalit # 90
Agree with you on that. Such sentimental attachment to physical things or even places (like Mecca/Medina) is a very Indian/Hindu thing (or so Romair has been educating us).
Personally, I am proud to put the picture of Dr. Ambedkar on the wall, with pretty flowers all around it.
Dalit ji, one sincerely hopes such pictures can be found on the walls of your house too.
Agree with you on that. Such sentimental attachment to physical things or even places (like Mecca/Medina) is a very Indian/Hindu thing (or so Romair has been educating us).
Personally, I am proud to put the picture of Dr. Ambedkar on the wall, with pretty flowers all around it.
Dalit ji, one sincerely hopes such pictures can be found on the walls of your house too.
#97 Posted by shankar on August 22, 2005 6:48:29 pm
Re: # 93
kaalachakra,
{{Such sentimental attachment to physical things or even places (like Mecca/Medina) is a very Indian/Hindu thing (or so Romair has been educating us). }}}
Is that SOWWWW?!
hahahahaha!!!..You just made my day!
So I suppose his ``sentimental attatchment`` to his ancestral property in Srinagar makes a very Indian hindu Rajput!
Man! too bad I was`nt around when he bowled THAT googly!
Jeeze, where IS Romair these past couple a` days?...gee..was it somethin` I said?...
I miss him...has he slit his wrists already?...I hope not...
er...I`ve not done with him ; as yet
kaalachakra,
{{Such sentimental attachment to physical things or even places (like Mecca/Medina) is a very Indian/Hindu thing (or so Romair has been educating us). }}}
Is that SOWWWW?!
hahahahaha!!!..You just made my day!
So I suppose his ``sentimental attatchment`` to his ancestral property in Srinagar makes a very Indian hindu Rajput!
Man! too bad I was`nt around when he bowled THAT googly!
Jeeze, where IS Romair these past couple a` days?...gee..was it somethin` I said?...
I miss him...has he slit his wrists already?...I hope not...
er...I`ve not done with him ; as yet
#92 Posted by arjun_m on August 22, 2005 11:28:19 am
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#91 Posted by mannu404 on August 22, 2005 11:19:27 am
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#90 Posted by Dalit on August 22, 2005 11:14:21 am
Muslim sense of history is funky….hehehehe… Mohammed lived for 63 years most of it in Mecca. Never owned a property but house was his…..heheheh… Can Muslims declare all the pavements and streets he walked on in Mecca sacred? Hehehehe…Don’t allow any construction in Mecca…hehhehe….
The hindu type of obsession with houses and places is part of the hindu heritage muslims of India have….hehehehhe…
How long muslims are going to hide behind mosque, madrassa and the mullah….heheheheh…. they need to get over this thing about properties and Mohammed’s houses….hehehehe…he never owned one then how was that his house….he lived in many other houses owned by some other people….heheheh…none of those were his property….
If they like that house…hehehehe…take a picture and paste it on every wall…..heheheh…like hindus do….heheheh….Christians never saved the cross….hehehehe…. they made copies of it….heheheheh
#89 Posted by mannu404 on August 22, 2005 10:47:09 am
Turn mecca into a brothel, just like the good old days.
#88 Posted by Kulharee on August 22, 2005 7:30:12 am
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#87 Posted by tahmed32 on August 22, 2005 7:10:04 am
nhk: greetings. history should indeed be preserved...but not worshipped.
#96 Posted by shankar on August 22, 2005 6:37:58 pm
Re: # 87
Guys,
what kind of religious twist of Islam is this wahabbism??
Islam rejecting art?!...Music, dance, painting, songs, photography...BAD for ``religious`` health?
What kind of awful Islam is this?
this is NOT the kind of Islam I grew up with; in India...
In India...some of the greatest works of art is associated with muslims...what Goddamned tribe of human beings...those people of empty sand & desert...no art..no culture of any sort? (OK maybe Arabian knights)...but jeeze...these Arabs from Saudi are a real wierd people...IMHO..at least...
Films can be made about Jesus & Buddha & Ram & Krishna...but none can be made of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)??...
....I would think we 4 billion kufrs would appreciate him & his message a lot more...if we saw a film about his life...
...I mean...who made these RULES?? Allah?!...the Holy Prophet himself ?...surely THEY could not have made them...there werent any cameras or films invented then...I have a feeling some huckster(s) like Wahab & Maududi et all just took Islam like Rapunzel & locked her up in a very very high castle....& keep JEALOUS and POSSESSIVE guard of her..there...& any muslim who DARES question the motives of those ``wicked warlocks`` face the gallows for blasphemy..
Whats more regrettable is that no Prince or Prophet will ever come to rescue Rapunzel...acc to the Koran (i think)..
Guys,
what kind of religious twist of Islam is this wahabbism??
Islam rejecting art?!...Music, dance, painting, songs, photography...BAD for ``religious`` health?
What kind of awful Islam is this?
this is NOT the kind of Islam I grew up with; in India...
In India...some of the greatest works of art is associated with muslims...what Goddamned tribe of human beings...those people of empty sand & desert...no art..no culture of any sort? (OK maybe Arabian knights)...but jeeze...these Arabs from Saudi are a real wierd people...IMHO..at least...
Films can be made about Jesus & Buddha & Ram & Krishna...but none can be made of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)??...
....I would think we 4 billion kufrs would appreciate him & his message a lot more...if we saw a film about his life...
...I mean...who made these RULES?? Allah?!...the Holy Prophet himself ?...surely THEY could not have made them...there werent any cameras or films invented then...I have a feeling some huckster(s) like Wahab & Maududi et all just took Islam like Rapunzel & locked her up in a very very high castle....& keep JEALOUS and POSSESSIVE guard of her..there...& any muslim who DARES question the motives of those ``wicked warlocks`` face the gallows for blasphemy..
Whats more regrettable is that no Prince or Prophet will ever come to rescue Rapunzel...acc to the Koran (i think)..
#103 Posted by Netizen on August 23, 2005 10:46:33 am
Re: # 96
``what kind of religious twist of Islam is this wahabbism?? ``
I think it is pure islam as Mohd practised. Over centuries as people from other cultures converted music, art, calligraphy ... was added to it.
Aurangzeb also tried to revert back to the ``basics`` by banning music, art which he considered unislamic.
``what kind of religious twist of Islam is this wahabbism?? ``
I think it is pure islam as Mohd practised. Over centuries as people from other cultures converted music, art, calligraphy ... was added to it.
Aurangzeb also tried to revert back to the ``basics`` by banning music, art which he considered unislamic.
#102 Posted by Netizen on August 23, 2005 10:45:55 am
Re: # 96
``what kind of religious twist of Islam is this wahabbism?? ``
I think it is pure islam as Mohd practised. Over centuries as people from other cultures converted music, art, calligraphy ... was added to it.
Aurangzeb also tried to revert back to the ``basics`` by banning music, art which he considered unislamic.
``what kind of religious twist of Islam is this wahabbism?? ``
I think it is pure islam as Mohd practised. Over centuries as people from other cultures converted music, art, calligraphy ... was added to it.
Aurangzeb also tried to revert back to the ``basics`` by banning music, art which he considered unislamic.
#82 Posted by wcome2myworld on August 21, 2005 9:55:36 pm
Dear Mahmood,
I really appriciate your entry and concern but please do add some extra respect for us narrow minded people out here and write PBUH next to PROPHET MUHAMMAD(PBUH)`s Name.
Thanks.
I really appriciate your entry and concern but please do add some extra respect for us narrow minded people out here and write PBUH next to PROPHET MUHAMMAD(PBUH)`s Name.
Thanks.
#80 Posted by masanamuthu on August 21, 2005 9:20:12 pm
Just a question.. I`m a newcomer to Chowk and don`t know how people here reacted to thenews of destruction of Bamian Buddhas by the Taliban.
So, I assume the people who opposed the destruction of Mr.Muhammad`s house, opposed that too. Is my assumption right?. To extrapolate that, I would like to ask if they oppose Ghazni`s destruction of various temples too??.. If not, isn`t that a bit hypocritical??..
So, I assume the people who opposed the destruction of Mr.Muhammad`s house, opposed that too. Is my assumption right?. To extrapolate that, I would like to ask if they oppose Ghazni`s destruction of various temples too??.. If not, isn`t that a bit hypocritical??..
#81 Posted by soccerman on August 21, 2005 9:33:04 pm
Re: # 80
I think that the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamian buddhas was a crime.
And I think that Mahmood Ghazni`s destruction of the temples, massacre of priests and worshippers and large scale plunder was a bigger crime. It destroyed major jewels of Indian culture and history. But it is to be expected from a guy whose primary motivation was to build wealth and glory for himself, at all cost.
People like Ghazni have used religion to justify their ends, and history is full of them. Like the wahabbi ideology today, he believed in a zero-sum game of divine grace and redemption. Only certain people and points of view had worth, others did not.
The muslim mystics who came to the sub-continent had a different point of view and saw commonality between Islam and other thoughts. And they did not think or speak very highly of people like Ghazni. But then wahabbis don`t like mysticism very much.
I think that the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamian buddhas was a crime.
And I think that Mahmood Ghazni`s destruction of the temples, massacre of priests and worshippers and large scale plunder was a bigger crime. It destroyed major jewels of Indian culture and history. But it is to be expected from a guy whose primary motivation was to build wealth and glory for himself, at all cost.
People like Ghazni have used religion to justify their ends, and history is full of them. Like the wahabbi ideology today, he believed in a zero-sum game of divine grace and redemption. Only certain people and points of view had worth, others did not.
The muslim mystics who came to the sub-continent had a different point of view and saw commonality between Islam and other thoughts. And they did not think or speak very highly of people like Ghazni. But then wahabbis don`t like mysticism very much.
#86 Posted by masanamuthu on August 22, 2005 3:50:30 am
Re: # 81:
I think that the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamian buddhas was a crime.
And I think that Mahmood Ghazni`s destruction of the temples, massacre of priests and worshippers and large scale plunder was a bigger crime. It destroyed major jewels of Indian culture and history. But it is to be expected from a guy whose primary motivation was to build wealth and glory for himself, at all cost.
soccerman:
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you. But apparently treating Ghaznis/Ghoris/Aurangazeb as great heroes is common practice in Pakistan. (I`m quoting from Akbar Ahmed`s article on outlook.., and also by the naming of missiles)
But I think there is justification in what the Saudis are doing according to their understanding of the ``revealed text``. Remember even Mr.Muhammad destroyed the idols in Mecca(??). Saudis/Wahaabis are barbarians stuck in the 7th century, but atleast they are not hypocrites. I like the spread of Wahabism, so that it removes the sense of remorse/guilt from others when the time comes to wipe this dangerous cult off the planet..
I think that the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamian buddhas was a crime.
And I think that Mahmood Ghazni`s destruction of the temples, massacre of priests and worshippers and large scale plunder was a bigger crime. It destroyed major jewels of Indian culture and history. But it is to be expected from a guy whose primary motivation was to build wealth and glory for himself, at all cost.
soccerman:
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you. But apparently treating Ghaznis/Ghoris/Aurangazeb as great heroes is common practice in Pakistan. (I`m quoting from Akbar Ahmed`s article on outlook.., and also by the naming of missiles)
But I think there is justification in what the Saudis are doing according to their understanding of the ``revealed text``. Remember even Mr.Muhammad destroyed the idols in Mecca(??). Saudis/Wahaabis are barbarians stuck in the 7th century, but atleast they are not hypocrites. I like the spread of Wahabism, so that it removes the sense of remorse/guilt from others when the time comes to wipe this dangerous cult off the planet..
#79 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on August 21, 2005 8:59:34 pm
Farzan
Thanks. History should be preserved. Whether it is Dhows, Muhammad`s house, T E Lawrence`s uniforms or the old Arab houses with the wind-catching towers.
One can possibly live quite happily without a religion. But living without a culture, of which history is a part, is a stunted, rootless and a meaningless existance.
nhk
Thanks. History should be preserved. Whether it is Dhows, Muhammad`s house, T E Lawrence`s uniforms or the old Arab houses with the wind-catching towers.
One can possibly live quite happily without a religion. But living without a culture, of which history is a part, is a stunted, rootless and a meaningless existance.
nhk
#95 Posted by shankar on August 22, 2005 6:16:20 pm
Re: # 79
NHK,
{{One can possibly live quite happily without a religion. But living without a culture, of which history is a part, is a stunted, rootless and a meaningless existance}}
that was very profound, sir...well said
NHK,
{{One can possibly live quite happily without a religion. But living without a culture, of which history is a part, is a stunted, rootless and a meaningless existance}}
that was very profound, sir...well said
#78 Posted by Urstruly on August 21, 2005 8:55:18 pm
I think the house must be preserved as a relic of historic importance regardless of who is saying what. People can be persuaded thru education not to use such symbols for religious puposes. Therefore, it is incumbent upon every Muslim to write to the Saudi government on the addresses that author have provided.
#75 Posted by talha on August 21, 2005 1:08:57 pm
Farzan, thank you for writing this piece. It was about time someone wrote about this topic on chowk.
Not to mention how surprised i am by the interactions over here. Its seems that history, and culture have no value to some of us here. However, this isn`t only about history, culture, and the richness of a tradition. It is also about the Islamic tradition of hundreds of years. The house of the Prophet is a place where he received revelations from God. It is a place where we muslims if allowed by the goverment could visit and learn and appreciate the times of the Prophet. Its a place where angels visited frequently, and the pure friends and family of the Prophet lived. It has a spiritual significance for the MAJORITY of muslims.
Not that this solves muslim problems. Its not even about our problems. It has nothing to do with problems. It has to do with an identity and tradition.
I suggest people read up on Sami Angawi. He is one heck of Saudi architect. And has alot to talk regarding this topic.
Not to mention how surprised i am by the interactions over here. Its seems that history, and culture have no value to some of us here. However, this isn`t only about history, culture, and the richness of a tradition. It is also about the Islamic tradition of hundreds of years. The house of the Prophet is a place where he received revelations from God. It is a place where we muslims if allowed by the goverment could visit and learn and appreciate the times of the Prophet. Its a place where angels visited frequently, and the pure friends and family of the Prophet lived. It has a spiritual significance for the MAJORITY of muslims.
Not that this solves muslim problems. Its not even about our problems. It has nothing to do with problems. It has to do with an identity and tradition.
I suggest people read up on Sami Angawi. He is one heck of Saudi architect. And has alot to talk regarding this topic.
#77 Posted by soccerman on August 21, 2005 5:38:20 pm
Re: # 75
You are right, wahabbi ideology of being ahistorical and blind to one`s heritage will leave our descendents deprived.
In numerous places outside of Arabia they ordered the destruction of old graveyards and mosques and replaced them with new wahabbi ones. Did not repair or restore the old ones. To me this shows that this plan of systematic demolition is to replace Islamic heritage with a wahabbi heritage. This is destruction of history and re-writing of history happening before our eyes.
Why is it so difficult for them to value Islamic heritage and to at least try to come up with ways to fit it in their plans instead of destroying it?
Re: #76
Pushing the issue under the rug is the order of the day, as I have been reminded multiple times today...
But please don`t give up, please help spread the word.
Re: #74
With all due respect, I understood your mantra too, a while ago.
May I suggest that you too try to be consistent with your mantra (see Sahih Muslim, Book 1, No. 79).
Regarding ducking: One stimulus, different responses -- some duck, some speak, some stand. But I already talked about this above and there`s no value judgement.
If you can, please help spread the word. Otherwise, peace on you.
thanks
You are right, wahabbi ideology of being ahistorical and blind to one`s heritage will leave our descendents deprived.
In numerous places outside of Arabia they ordered the destruction of old graveyards and mosques and replaced them with new wahabbi ones. Did not repair or restore the old ones. To me this shows that this plan of systematic demolition is to replace Islamic heritage with a wahabbi heritage. This is destruction of history and re-writing of history happening before our eyes.
Why is it so difficult for them to value Islamic heritage and to at least try to come up with ways to fit it in their plans instead of destroying it?
Re: #76
Pushing the issue under the rug is the order of the day, as I have been reminded multiple times today...
But please don`t give up, please help spread the word.
Re: #74
With all due respect, I understood your mantra too, a while ago.
May I suggest that you too try to be consistent with your mantra (see Sahih Muslim, Book 1, No. 79).
Regarding ducking: One stimulus, different responses -- some duck, some speak, some stand. But I already talked about this above and there`s no value judgement.
If you can, please help spread the word. Otherwise, peace on you.
thanks
#76 Posted by aquaris on August 21, 2005 3:42:55 pm
Re: # 75
Talha chowk is a rareity, It is the only forum , where you are getting SOME response....!1
Else where the situation is much pathetic, and I agree every One every where , seems to push the issue under the RUG, and avoids any mention of it, what to say about discussing...
Maybe..... Muslims are now considering Islam to be a Lost cause....??
and want to get over with it.....
Talha chowk is a rareity, It is the only forum , where you are getting SOME response....!1
Else where the situation is much pathetic, and I agree every One every where , seems to push the issue under the RUG, and avoids any mention of it, what to say about discussing...
Maybe..... Muslims are now considering Islam to be a Lost cause....??
and want to get over with it.....
#74 Posted by temporal on August 21, 2005 11:10:53 am
#71 Posted by satyamvada on August 21, 2005 9:17:25 am
Hmm....these same enlightened personalities - have nothing to say about
the thousands of temples and viharas destroyed in Pakistan. They identify more with
Saudi Arabia and what happens there.
Vidyadhar Naipaul is proven right once again.
#73 Posted by soccerman on August 21, 2005 10:57:15 am
Re: # 71
I agree with you. If the wahabbis can destroy muslim history with impunity imagine what they think of other religions and their places of worship and culture. When the Taliban (wahabbis) blew up the buddhas of Bamian in Afghanistan, wahabbi apologists and rationalists covered up that inexcusable crime.
Sunni Islam in India and Pakistan is becoming rapidly infected with wahabbism, and sunnis in the sub-continent have been traditionally known for their moderation and temperance. With strong wahabbi streaks now, thousands of minority muslims in pakistan have been killed and their places of worship bombed.
This systematic shift is also evident even from the interactions of multiple apparently moderate people here. If you read through their responses, their message is to simply ignore this problem or to accept it, because implicitly they believe in the validity of the wahabbi doctrine that historical or cultural monuments are threats. The more vocal wahabbis openly declare that saudi family has a special status and should not be questioned.
I think the world has much to fear from rise of wahabbism, especially given the fact that it is and will continue to be fed by rising saudi oil wealth. Imagine a wahabbi ruler of a country with a large non-muslim population, the outcome would not be pretty. Same can be said of a country with a large muslim minority. The rise of a wahabbi ideology would inevitably lead to terrorism and extremism, and I think India has seen a lot of it.
I agree with you. If the wahabbis can destroy muslim history with impunity imagine what they think of other religions and their places of worship and culture. When the Taliban (wahabbis) blew up the buddhas of Bamian in Afghanistan, wahabbi apologists and rationalists covered up that inexcusable crime.
Sunni Islam in India and Pakistan is becoming rapidly infected with wahabbism, and sunnis in the sub-continent have been traditionally known for their moderation and temperance. With strong wahabbi streaks now, thousands of minority muslims in pakistan have been killed and their places of worship bombed.
This systematic shift is also evident even from the interactions of multiple apparently moderate people here. If you read through their responses, their message is to simply ignore this problem or to accept it, because implicitly they believe in the validity of the wahabbi doctrine that historical or cultural monuments are threats. The more vocal wahabbis openly declare that saudi family has a special status and should not be questioned.
I think the world has much to fear from rise of wahabbism, especially given the fact that it is and will continue to be fed by rising saudi oil wealth. Imagine a wahabbi ruler of a country with a large non-muslim population, the outcome would not be pretty. Same can be said of a country with a large muslim minority. The rise of a wahabbi ideology would inevitably lead to terrorism and extremism, and I think India has seen a lot of it.
#70 Posted by temporal on August 21, 2005 8:18:25 am
umer:
bravo!
good story
the irony is sheep is growing..by last count to 1.2 bil plus...and there ain`t a forest big enough;)
rgds
t
ps: recall the words of `bu bak`r when he returned to the prophet`s mosque upon his death when omar was holding the forth?
bravo!
good story
the irony is sheep is growing..by last count to 1.2 bil plus...and there ain`t a forest big enough;)
rgds
t
ps: recall the words of `bu bak`r when he returned to the prophet`s mosque upon his death when omar was holding the forth?
#69 Posted by UmerMurtaza on August 21, 2005 8:00:20 am
Reading the above made me pen this little number below. Man, I ain`t no grave worshipper but ths is plain wrong. Those at the top treat politics and religion as a big family business. Their children grow up with the property and belongings of others handed to them on a gold platter. You will hear it in their tones. You will see it in their body language. They`re all born managers.
They have absolutely no fucking empathy or understanding for the feelings of those whom they rule over. Who the hell gave a bunch of people the right to dictate to over a billion people as to how they should think or that they cannot be responsible for their faith.
And where`s the response from the people? Fucking smelly sheep.
Once, in Ferghana Valley, there lived a flock of sheep. Cute, white and fluffy, they ate all day long. They grazed upon the fresh wet grass, drank the cool clean waters of Syr River and inhaled the air swept down from the Pamir Mountains. Thus, they became cuter, whiter, fluffier.
The sheep lived their life without a care in the world. Every morning, the air carried with it the perfume of moist soil and chlorophyll from the cut grass. Every night, there was the warm safe sanctuary of a pen. Life was good and simple.
The sheep were led, not surprisingly, by a sheepdog, who was answerable to a human. Every morning, the dog would wake up and run around the sheep, barking orders for them to move here and move there.
It was one such day when a curious baby lamb asked his elder brother:
‘Why do we take orders from him, the one with four legs and a horrible bark?’
‘Because he is our leader,’ said brother proudly. ‘And what a leader he is: that growl, that shiny black coat and those fearsome canines. Wow.’
‘Oh,’ said the baby lamb. ‘But why does he look so different from us?’
‘Because he is a dog and we are sheep,’ instructed brother.
The little lamb grew silent. Growing older, a question came into his confused mind which he posed to his mother:
‘Why must we take orders from a dog?
‘Because we need him to lead us.’ Mother said straightforwardly.
‘Does that mean we don’t know how to lead our own lives?’ asked the little lamb.
‘We are sheep and he is a dog,’ is all that the mother said. ‘It has always been that way.’
The little lamb grew quieter until he entered youth. The youth knew much more of the sheep’s life. He knew now that there was another animal, a Human, who had installed the dog to lead the sheep. But the youth still could not understand why they had to be led by a dog – an animal he had come to hate. The irritated adolescent approached his father:
‘I will not take orders from someone who does not know us!’
‘You will disobey an ancient tradition?’ his father said disbelievingly.
The youth bleated. ‘He is a dog; we are sheep. He has canines; we have molars. He eats meat; we eat grass. He barks; we bleat. He has a coat; we have wool.’ Steam was rising through the young blood’s nostrils. ‘How can we follow someone who doesn’t come from us – someone who doesn’t understand us?’
The father was furious to hear that the youth had spoken against an old tradition. He scolded the young son who walked away brooding.
Not very far from the valley was a jungle. Here, a pack of travelling wolves had convened to discuss their next meal. One by one, they discussed the lands they had travelled to and the animals they had met.
Said the eldest wolf: ‘My native land has plenty of moose and they are big and ugly and with horns that are twice our length. I am too old to kill one on my own, but with team work and with good directions from the leader, they can be brought down.’
The deputy wolf then spoke of his journey: ‘On my travels to Africa, I saw many animals that ate grass. But they lived in big families helped by their leaders. And there were many predators too: Cousin coyote, Nephew fox and Uncle cat.’
One by one, they described their journeys into the different continents and icy wastelands and deserts and forests and those strange places called cities occupied by humans.
Throughout the meeting, the youngest wolf had had on him a smirk. Now that it was his turn to speak, he burst out laughing:
‘I know you wolves are older than myself. And compared to you lot, what I know is only the tip of the iceberg.’ Here he broke off into another bout of laughter. ‘But you’re not going to believe what I’ve seen.’
The pack raised its ears.
‘I’ve seen some pretty weird animals and hunted some crazy ones too but I’ve never seen an animal more stupid than a sheep.’ He howled.
‘A what? Why is this sheep animal stupid?’
‘Uncle Wolf,’ the young wolf addressed a grey-haired animal. ‘You’ve seen buffaloes and they are ruled by a buffalo. You’ve seen Zebras and they are led by a Zebra. The deer are led by the deer. The elephants are led by the elephant. Grandpa,’ the youngster now turned his attention to the chief wolf. ‘The moose; who leads and protects them? The moose of course. But guess what; these sheep are led by a dog!’
‘Cousin Dog! Argh ha ha ha ha harrrr.’ The entire night, the forest was filled with howles. That night they decided that they would feast upon these sheep. An animal so stupid deserved to die. The mission was given to the youngest wolf who decided to replace the dog. After all, who could disguise better as a dog, but a wolf.
One night, when the sheep had gone inside their shelters, the wolf snuck behind the dog and killed him. From now on, he would observe, and like a true predator wait for the right time to come.
By now the adolescent lamb had grown into a strong muscular Ram. His thick, intimidating horns curled twice before jutting forward. He had become openly rebellious too, something he came to clash over with the entire flock.
‘You are stubborn and strong-headed,’ they bleated.
‘I recognise authority and I’m willing to obey but how can I take orders from an animal who doesn’t understand who I am?’
‘But the dog is a good leader.’
‘The dog is a dictator who was installed by the Human. He barks and pushes us around. He is not one of us. How can we put our trust within him? Do we not have any pride or intelligence to govern ourselves?’
The flock was aghast to hear that. ‘For generations,’ said the ewes and the rams, ‘we have been happy the way we have been living. Nothing has ever happened to us. The human is benign and the dog has protected us. Just look at our plump bodies and our thick wool.’
The ram stomped the ground like a bull. ‘You are all slaves! The human is not benign. Did he cut grass for our sustenance or plant trees for our shade? Did he carve out the river for our nourishment? Did he sculpt the mountains for us to marvel at? Did he perfume the fresh air for us to breathe? This land always belonged to all of us. He just happened to put a fence around it. We are his prostitutes! The human needs us; that’s why he keeps us alive! What good is it to have dead sheep?’
‘Why don’t you leave us alone? We are happy to be the way we are?’
‘You are happy to live in a dream because you think that that dream will last your lifetime. But we have become weak. Tomorrow, if that dog,’ the ram sneered at the wolf-in- disguise, ‘or that Human was to turn on us, we would not be able to do anything.’
This was the truth and the flock knew it. But they were reluctant to accept the painful reality, so they chose to live in a fairytale. In unison, they all turned their backs to the rebel. The Ram was shocked. His eyes welled up with tears. He had been rejected by his own – including his family – and told to leave the flock forever.
Slowly and painfully, he turned around. Something told him he would never see his family again. He walked away from the pen and disappeared into the valley to live a new life. He never came back.
The few days the young wolf had spent living his life in disguise were educational. He had learnt the mentality of the sheep. The wolf was bigger than the dog, his fangs longer, his ‘bark’ more of a growl, yet the sheep never noticed. And how could they? If the dog could not understand the nature of those he ordered around, then the sheep also could not understand the real nature of the animal they took orders from.
If ever the wolf had any remorse for those cuddly white dumplings on four legs, it was not there any longer. Indeed, such stupid animals had existed throughout time only to be eaten. Fearsome as he was, however, the young wolf had feared the rebellious ram – even respected him.
Now that the Ram had left the flock to live a new life, the wolf was free to do as he wished. One night, he returned to the forest and informed his pack to prepare for an ambush.
The next morning, the ewes and rams had come out, doing what they had always done. Swiftly, the wolf led them out of the pen, then gathered them into a new formation and steered them into a new direction. Before long, the wolf was leading them away from the areas where they normally grazed.
They were headed towards the forest.
The sheep didn’t seem to mind. They didn’t know any better. Bleating merrily along their way, they happily followed the wolf.
That day, the forest shook frighteningly and the valley echoed with growls and bleats. No sheep ever returned from the forest.
Umer M.
They have absolutely no fucking empathy or understanding for the feelings of those whom they rule over. Who the hell gave a bunch of people the right to dictate to over a billion people as to how they should think or that they cannot be responsible for their faith.
And where`s the response from the people? Fucking smelly sheep.
Once, in Ferghana Valley, there lived a flock of sheep. Cute, white and fluffy, they ate all day long. They grazed upon the fresh wet grass, drank the cool clean waters of Syr River and inhaled the air swept down from the Pamir Mountains. Thus, they became cuter, whiter, fluffier.
The sheep lived their life without a care in the world. Every morning, the air carried with it the perfume of moist soil and chlorophyll from the cut grass. Every night, there was the warm safe sanctuary of a pen. Life was good and simple.
The sheep were led, not surprisingly, by a sheepdog, who was answerable to a human. Every morning, the dog would wake up and run around the sheep, barking orders for them to move here and move there.
It was one such day when a curious baby lamb asked his elder brother:
‘Why do we take orders from him, the one with four legs and a horrible bark?’
‘Because he is our leader,’ said brother proudly. ‘And what a leader he is: that growl, that shiny black coat and those fearsome canines. Wow.’
‘Oh,’ said the baby lamb. ‘But why does he look so different from us?’
‘Because he is a dog and we are sheep,’ instructed brother.
The little lamb grew silent. Growing older, a question came into his confused mind which he posed to his mother:
‘Why must we take orders from a dog?
‘Because we need him to lead us.’ Mother said straightforwardly.
‘Does that mean we don’t know how to lead our own lives?’ asked the little lamb.
‘We are sheep and he is a dog,’ is all that the mother said. ‘It has always been that way.’
The little lamb grew quieter until he entered youth. The youth knew much more of the sheep’s life. He knew now that there was another animal, a Human, who had installed the dog to lead the sheep. But the youth still could not understand why they had to be led by a dog – an animal he had come to hate. The irritated adolescent approached his father:
‘I will not take orders from someone who does not know us!’
‘You will disobey an ancient tradition?’ his father said disbelievingly.
The youth bleated. ‘He is a dog; we are sheep. He has canines; we have molars. He eats meat; we eat grass. He barks; we bleat. He has a coat; we have wool.’ Steam was rising through the young blood’s nostrils. ‘How can we follow someone who doesn’t come from us – someone who doesn’t understand us?’
The father was furious to hear that the youth had spoken against an old tradition. He scolded the young son who walked away brooding.
Not very far from the valley was a jungle. Here, a pack of travelling wolves had convened to discuss their next meal. One by one, they discussed the lands they had travelled to and the animals they had met.
Said the eldest wolf: ‘My native land has plenty of moose and they are big and ugly and with horns that are twice our length. I am too old to kill one on my own, but with team work and with good directions from the leader, they can be brought down.’
The deputy wolf then spoke of his journey: ‘On my travels to Africa, I saw many animals that ate grass. But they lived in big families helped by their leaders. And there were many predators too: Cousin coyote, Nephew fox and Uncle cat.’
One by one, they described their journeys into the different continents and icy wastelands and deserts and forests and those strange places called cities occupied by humans.
Throughout the meeting, the youngest wolf had had on him a smirk. Now that it was his turn to speak, he burst out laughing:
‘I know you wolves are older than myself. And compared to you lot, what I know is only the tip of the iceberg.’ Here he broke off into another bout of laughter. ‘But you’re not going to believe what I’ve seen.’
The pack raised its ears.
‘I’ve seen some pretty weird animals and hunted some crazy ones too but I’ve never seen an animal more stupid than a sheep.’ He howled.
‘A what? Why is this sheep animal stupid?’
‘Uncle Wolf,’ the young wolf addressed a grey-haired animal. ‘You’ve seen buffaloes and they are ruled by a buffalo. You’ve seen Zebras and they are led by a Zebra. The deer are led by the deer. The elephants are led by the elephant. Grandpa,’ the youngster now turned his attention to the chief wolf. ‘The moose; who leads and protects them? The moose of course. But guess what; these sheep are led by a dog!’
‘Cousin Dog! Argh ha ha ha ha harrrr.’ The entire night, the forest was filled with howles. That night they decided that they would feast upon these sheep. An animal so stupid deserved to die. The mission was given to the youngest wolf who decided to replace the dog. After all, who could disguise better as a dog, but a wolf.
One night, when the sheep had gone inside their shelters, the wolf snuck behind the dog and killed him. From now on, he would observe, and like a true predator wait for the right time to come.
By now the adolescent lamb had grown into a strong muscular Ram. His thick, intimidating horns curled twice before jutting forward. He had become openly rebellious too, something he came to clash over with the entire flock.
‘You are stubborn and strong-headed,’ they bleated.
‘I recognise authority and I’m willing to obey but how can I take orders from an animal who doesn’t understand who I am?’
‘But the dog is a good leader.’
‘The dog is a dictator who was installed by the Human. He barks and pushes us around. He is not one of us. How can we put our trust within him? Do we not have any pride or intelligence to govern ourselves?’
The flock was aghast to hear that. ‘For generations,’ said the ewes and the rams, ‘we have been happy the way we have been living. Nothing has ever happened to us. The human is benign and the dog has protected us. Just look at our plump bodies and our thick wool.’
The ram stomped the ground like a bull. ‘You are all slaves! The human is not benign. Did he cut grass for our sustenance or plant trees for our shade? Did he carve out the river for our nourishment? Did he sculpt the mountains for us to marvel at? Did he perfume the fresh air for us to breathe? This land always belonged to all of us. He just happened to put a fence around it. We are his prostitutes! The human needs us; that’s why he keeps us alive! What good is it to have dead sheep?’
‘Why don’t you leave us alone? We are happy to be the way we are?’
‘You are happy to live in a dream because you think that that dream will last your lifetime. But we have become weak. Tomorrow, if that dog,’ the ram sneered at the wolf-in- disguise, ‘or that Human was to turn on us, we would not be able to do anything.’
This was the truth and the flock knew it. But they were reluctant to accept the painful reality, so they chose to live in a fairytale. In unison, they all turned their backs to the rebel. The Ram was shocked. His eyes welled up with tears. He had been rejected by his own – including his family – and told to leave the flock forever.
Slowly and painfully, he turned around. Something told him he would never see his family again. He walked away from the pen and disappeared into the valley to live a new life. He never came back.
The few days the young wolf had spent living his life in disguise were educational. He had learnt the mentality of the sheep. The wolf was bigger than the dog, his fangs longer, his ‘bark’ more of a growl, yet the sheep never noticed. And how could they? If the dog could not understand the nature of those he ordered around, then the sheep also could not understand the real nature of the animal they took orders from.
If ever the wolf had any remorse for those cuddly white dumplings on four legs, it was not there any longer. Indeed, such stupid animals had existed throughout time only to be eaten. Fearsome as he was, however, the young wolf had feared the rebellious ram – even respected him.
Now that the Ram had left the flock to live a new life, the wolf was free to do as he wished. One night, he returned to the forest and informed his pack to prepare for an ambush.
The next morning, the ewes and rams had come out, doing what they had always done. Swiftly, the wolf led them out of the pen, then gathered them into a new formation and steered them into a new direction. Before long, the wolf was leading them away from the areas where they normally grazed.
They were headed towards the forest.
The sheep didn’t seem to mind. They didn’t know any better. Bleating merrily along their way, they happily followed the wolf.
That day, the forest shook frighteningly and the valley echoed with growls and bleats. No sheep ever returned from the forest.
Umer M.
#68 Posted by masanamuthu on August 21, 2005 7:27:43 am
Atleast the Saudis are consistent. They support the destruction of Bamian Buddhas and now support the destruction of Mr.Muhammad`s houses.. Since ``idol worship`` is wrong and banned in Islam, I agree with their logic. Now they should extend it to the various mosques because now, the mosques have become the bigger idols .. The ``believers`` are now worshipping the ``mosque`` more than the message. So destructing those should be the Saudi/Wahaabi`s next step.. I like this.. :-))
#67 Posted by nb on August 21, 2005 5:28:54 am
I read articles on this last week in the Sydney Morning Herald and the Calcutta Statesman, and was going to post something on unplugged, but thought it would almost certainly be misconstrued by the usual suspects.
I`m surprised it`s taken this long for the normally vigilant chowk population to take notice of this. I have the excuse that I only access the Western media, but what about all the devout believers (and supposed liberals) who take issue with you if you ask about Osama being responsible for the 11/9 attacks?
What I find ironical is that the demolition of a disused mosque that was built to taunt the natives of a country caused so much havoc all over south Asia, yet in Saudi Arabia, structures of true, uncontested historical and religious value are being demolished by the safekeepers of the religion itself, without a murmur of protest from the same south Asian Muslims themselves. I have to ask again: does it just come down to money?
I`m surprised it`s taken this long for the normally vigilant chowk population to take notice of this. I have the excuse that I only access the Western media, but what about all the devout believers (and supposed liberals) who take issue with you if you ask about Osama being responsible for the 11/9 attacks?
What I find ironical is that the demolition of a disused mosque that was built to taunt the natives of a country caused so much havoc all over south Asia, yet in Saudi Arabia, structures of true, uncontested historical and religious value are being demolished by the safekeepers of the religion itself, without a murmur of protest from the same south Asian Muslims themselves. I have to ask again: does it just come down to money?
#66 Posted by arjun_m on August 21, 2005 5:17:13 am
#62 by malik99 on August 20, 2005 10:53pm PT
I fail to see why/how preservation of a building will ease the deep issues muslims are facing today.
you`re absolutely right....personally, i don`t see how a resolution of the kashmir/palestine issue would better your lot....not that there`s going to be a resolution you`ll like....
I fail to see why/how preservation of a building will ease the deep issues muslims are facing today.
you`re absolutely right....personally, i don`t see how a resolution of the kashmir/palestine issue would better your lot....not that there`s going to be a resolution you`ll like....
#65 Posted by harimau on August 21, 2005 4:51:05 am
Ref aisha_sarwari #32
[Re: # 30
The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.]
Actually, the same thought occurred to me as soon as I read the article a few minutes ago. AlephNull`s observation is right on the mark!
Yes, it does SEEM like Indians have a monopoly on logic but then that is natural, considering their tradition of inquiry, rhetoric and debate.
[Re: # 30
The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.]
Actually, the same thought occurred to me as soon as I read the article a few minutes ago. AlephNull`s observation is right on the mark!
Yes, it does SEEM like Indians have a monopoly on logic but then that is natural, considering their tradition of inquiry, rhetoric and debate.
#63 Posted by ahmedmadani on August 20, 2005 11:04:39 pm
Development is more important than saving old things. Those who want to save can collect money and move away where there is no deveopment pressures like in desert. All liberal are just aiming to destroy S. Arabia. If Royal family looses it will be like Iran and all people of world will be suffering as there will democracy and what not, leading to new rulers demanding extreme high prices and will not like to help brother Muslim countries like Pakistan, B.Desh, Sudan, Afghan etc. And Pakistan will be sufferer but liberals do not care as they live in america and pontificate any detrimental policies hitting Pakistan.
#72 Posted by soccerman on August 21, 2005 10:31:13 am
Re: # 63
You said:
``If Royal family looses it will be like Iran and all people of world will be suffering as there will democracy and what not, leading to new rulers ...``
In #8 you said:
``Dogs do not bite the feeding hands otherwise they are kicked out.``
I think under this line of thinking one is incapable of imagining anything but being an absolute slave of the royal family. I feel sorry for this.
You may want to consider yourself a dog of the royal family, but don`t ask others to behave like you.
What is the price you would put on your self-esteem and the people you love? What amount of Saudi money is enough for you to consider your mother, father, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters to be the property of the Saudi Royal family?
Come, come, let us not be angry. Your point of view believes in being a dog and a slave of royalty!
You said:
``If Royal family looses it will be like Iran and all people of world will be suffering as there will democracy and what not, leading to new rulers ...``
In #8 you said:
``Dogs do not bite the feeding hands otherwise they are kicked out.``
I think under this line of thinking one is incapable of imagining anything but being an absolute slave of the royal family. I feel sorry for this.
You may want to consider yourself a dog of the royal family, but don`t ask others to behave like you.
What is the price you would put on your self-esteem and the people you love? What amount of Saudi money is enough for you to consider your mother, father, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters to be the property of the Saudi Royal family?
Come, come, let us not be angry. Your point of view believes in being a dog and a slave of royalty!
#62 Posted by malik99 on August 20, 2005 10:53:58 pm
I fail to see why/how preservation of a building will ease the deep issues muslims are facing today.
I am also amazed at the utter and obscene hipocrisy of those who are shedding crocodile`s tears over the potential loss of a historic/religious icon in saudi arabia. Yet its the same folks who cheered for the Iraqi invasion that resulted in the most spectacular destruction and loot of arts and artifacts from the era of earliest human civilization. Talibans and Wahabis have not destroyed as many historic sites as the Evagenlists have.
Saudis are merely a bunch of tin pot dictators, who will whittle away if they were not backed by their american friends.
I am also amazed at the utter and obscene hipocrisy of those who are shedding crocodile`s tears over the potential loss of a historic/religious icon in saudi arabia. Yet its the same folks who cheered for the Iraqi invasion that resulted in the most spectacular destruction and loot of arts and artifacts from the era of earliest human civilization. Talibans and Wahabis have not destroyed as many historic sites as the Evagenlists have.
Saudis are merely a bunch of tin pot dictators, who will whittle away if they were not backed by their american friends.
#61 Posted by kalihawa on August 20, 2005 10:05:20 pm
From pure point of view of aesthetics I see nature’s deft strokes the best work of art. When I first saw images of Angkor Vat temple complex, of a giant head peering down at you through the thick canopy of tropical trees and partial view of delicate ornate structure of the temple hidden behind the trees, I was completely mesmerized. Now I am pretty disillusioned about the temple. The sanitized version of restored temple doesn’t exude the same aura. Imagine a partially ruined Taj Mahal with Peepul trees jutting out of its crevices, its base deformed by the roots of growing trees and largely hidden behind thick growth, wouldn’t that be awesome. Letting your imagination take a flight and complete the missing lines to visualize the awesome original work as you do with the Konark temple, isn’t imagination better than the real thing.
In any case nothing is permanent.
#58 Posted by Urstruly on August 20, 2005 9:17:17 pm
I wish the writer had researched it a little better before putting it to the pen. The so-called Jable Omar scheme is being proposed in Mecca, whereas this article contends that somhow this scheme includes the destruction of Holy Prophet`s house in Medina, which is approximately 360 km away from the proposed scheme.
Personally, I think Saudis will never take this step although due to the continued extentsion of both mosques in two cities it must have been at the expense of old heritage. Both cities have expanded exponantially. The fear that preservation of historic relics of religious value may lead to polytheism is valid and proff of its validity is abundant around the globe, where Muslims are fully enhgaged in such vile practices as worshipping graves, living and dead personalities, and other relics. Islamic theology of any sect of Islam specifically forbids such practices and if there is any excuse in support of such practices, then they have been either invented or are extrapolated.
Personally, I don`t like the tone of this article that uses ``Wahabis`` as scapegoat for everything. The neo-colonial powers are trying to exploit the differences among us. If Wahabism is the culprit then how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally. Which only means that Wahbism is irrelevant in this equation. Muslims must understand the game plan of the neo-colonial aggressors - as always it is divide and rule. The differeces - whether sectarian or ethnic are being ignited. Muslims are being used against each other. Take for example, Iraq where Sunni, Kurd, and Shia differnces have been exploited very well and that country is not only under foreign occupation but it is on the verge of triforcation. Similarly, Afghanistan is not only under occupation but the only thing that is keeping it together is 1 billion per month of military expense.
The news sources through which this news has been desseminated are also questionable. The Daily Times is a Quadiani mouthpiece and promotes infidel ideologies like atheism (secularism) and Quadiani agenda. Tarek Fateh is a man of questionable integrity and is a heretic who promotes homosexuality openly and contends that it is permissible in Islam. The Independent is mouthpiece of rancid right wing british neo-colonialism - those who read its articles know it very well.
#60 Posted by soccerman on August 20, 2005 9:59:53 pm
Re: # 58
The demolition is indeed in Mecca, the mention of Medina in the article is a mistake on part of the author. By the way, various media outlets are already starting to report the story.
You say:
``The news sources through which this news has been desseminated are also questionable. The Daily Times is a Quadiani mouthpiece and promotes infidel ideologies like atheism (secularism) and Quadiani agenda. Tarek Fateh is a man of questionable integrity and is a heretic who promotes homosexuality openly and contends that it is permissible in Islam. The Independent is mouthpiece of rancid right wing british neo-colonialism - those who read its articles know it very well.``
I think this the usual conspiracy theory argument. And it also conveys that everyone except the wahabbis are at fault. Because somehow the wahabbis are inherently infallible and anything they do is inherently right.
I ask you: Who made extremist wahabbis the masters of Islam? What right do they have to impose their ideology on everyone? Who gave them the right to speak for all muslims? By what right do they demolish buildings that are the common heritage of all muslims?
According to wahabis, all non-wahabis are either non-muslims or partial muslims, as you said. I think sectarianism in islam exists because of this way of thinking and not because of all the conspiracy theories of american, jewish, british, qadiani plans etc.
You say:
``If Wahabism is the culprit then how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally.``
The answer is very simple: There is no honor amongst thieves! It is only a matter of time before a fanatical ideology will degenerate into violence.
Re: #57
You got your conspiracy theory as soon as you asked for it!
After 9/11 Saudi arabia was the origin of the conspiracy theory that it was a jewish plot. No wonder, I think Saudis had to come up with something. After all 19 out of 22 hijackers were Saudi wahabi terrorists.
Denial is not just the name of a river!
The demolition is indeed in Mecca, the mention of Medina in the article is a mistake on part of the author. By the way, various media outlets are already starting to report the story.
You say:
``The news sources through which this news has been desseminated are also questionable. The Daily Times is a Quadiani mouthpiece and promotes infidel ideologies like atheism (secularism) and Quadiani agenda. Tarek Fateh is a man of questionable integrity and is a heretic who promotes homosexuality openly and contends that it is permissible in Islam. The Independent is mouthpiece of rancid right wing british neo-colonialism - those who read its articles know it very well.``
I think this the usual conspiracy theory argument. And it also conveys that everyone except the wahabbis are at fault. Because somehow the wahabbis are inherently infallible and anything they do is inherently right.
I ask you: Who made extremist wahabbis the masters of Islam? What right do they have to impose their ideology on everyone? Who gave them the right to speak for all muslims? By what right do they demolish buildings that are the common heritage of all muslims?
According to wahabis, all non-wahabis are either non-muslims or partial muslims, as you said. I think sectarianism in islam exists because of this way of thinking and not because of all the conspiracy theories of american, jewish, british, qadiani plans etc.
You say:
``If Wahabism is the culprit then how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally.``
The answer is very simple: There is no honor amongst thieves! It is only a matter of time before a fanatical ideology will degenerate into violence.
Re: #57
You got your conspiracy theory as soon as you asked for it!
After 9/11 Saudi arabia was the origin of the conspiracy theory that it was a jewish plot. No wonder, I think Saudis had to come up with something. After all 19 out of 22 hijackers were Saudi wahabi terrorists.
Denial is not just the name of a river!
#59 Posted by wiseguyin on August 20, 2005 9:31:25 pm
Re: # 58
Urstruly, How far do u sit from logic ?
{The neo-colonial powers are trying to exploit the differences among us...how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally.}
How come muslims/Pakis are considered asses but Mushy is still hailed as a leader !
regds,
SN
Urstruly, How far do u sit from logic ?
{The neo-colonial powers are trying to exploit the differences among us...how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally.}
How come muslims/Pakis are considered asses but Mushy is still hailed as a leader !
regds,
SN
#57 Posted by Ajeet on August 20, 2005 8:40:08 pm
I am surprised no one has come up with a conspiracy theory. I am sure it is the jews and American paying the Saudi boot lickers to destroy the heritage of Islam
#55 Posted by temporal on August 20, 2005 7:55:57 pm
#54:
relax
nothing damaging will come off this... the saudis may be able to raze this ``alleged` building...they cannot touch the `roza` in musjid e nabwi... (if you are a true believer- others don`t matter)
you just focus on following the message to the degree yhou can -- the messenger and related stuff is His responsibility...
rgds
t
relax
nothing damaging will come off this... the saudis may be able to raze this ``alleged` building...they cannot touch the `roza` in musjid e nabwi... (if you are a true believer- others don`t matter)
you just focus on following the message to the degree yhou can -- the messenger and related stuff is His responsibility...
rgds
t
#56 Posted by soccerman on August 20, 2005 8:27:33 pm
Re: # 55
Please stop being turning a blind eye to unacceptable behavior. You are implicitly condoning it.
(Lest you get too comfortable, the wahabbis wanted to destroy the roza in the masjid e nabwi in 1920`s, the concept of Prophet`s grave inside the mosque was unacceptable to them. It was only mass protest that stopped them.)
While we comfort ourselves with such soothing words, priceless pieces of our heritage will be replaced by strip malls and parking lots. To me that is not a fair bargain. A people without a history are a people without a future.
If you can, please spread the word or ask the Saudi govt to clarify the situation.
Thank you.
Please stop being turning a blind eye to unacceptable behavior. You are implicitly condoning it.
(Lest you get too comfortable, the wahabbis wanted to destroy the roza in the masjid e nabwi in 1920`s, the concept of Prophet`s grave inside the mosque was unacceptable to them. It was only mass protest that stopped them.)
While we comfort ourselves with such soothing words, priceless pieces of our heritage will be replaced by strip malls and parking lots. To me that is not a fair bargain. A people without a history are a people without a future.
If you can, please spread the word or ask the Saudi govt to clarify the situation.
Thank you.
#54 Posted by soccerman on August 20, 2005 7:27:44 pm
How can we mobilize the Chowk community to spread the word and to take action?
I am forwarding this to my friends and to media organizations. Starting Monday we will contact the Saudi embassies.
Please post your ideas and thoughts.
thanks
I am forwarding this to my friends and to media organizations. Starting Monday we will contact the Saudi embassies.
Please post your ideas and thoughts.
thanks
#53 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 6:15:36 pm
Nadia Zehra #3, {``The Ottoman Empire had added to the splendor of Madina and Makkah by building religious structures of great beauty and architectural value. Richard Burton, who visited the holy shrines in 1853 AD disguised as an Afghan Muslim and adopting the Muslim name Abdullah, speaks of Madina boasting 55 mosques and holy shrines. Another English adventurer who visited Madina in 1877-1878 AD describes it as a small beautiful city resembling Istanbul. He writes about its white walls, golden slender minarets and green fields.
1924 AD Wahhabis entered Hijaz for a second time and carried out another merciless plunder and massacre. People in streets were killed. Houses were razed to the ground. Women and children too were not spared.
1925 Madina surrendered to the Wahhabi onslaught. All Islamic heritage were destroyed. The only shrine that remained intact was that of the Holy Prophet (s). :}
Thank God that in 1917, the retreating Turks took most of the portable Islamic relics back to Istanbul from Medina. It is a pleasure to appreciate this last act of gallantry by Turks in saving the treasures of Islam. You can see them all on display at the Topkapi Palace (Museum) in a special section. The Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) hair, teeth, cloak, and the swords of Ali, Osman, and others. Too bad, the Turks couldn`t bring Medina back with them. :)
1924 AD Wahhabis entered Hijaz for a second time and carried out another merciless plunder and massacre. People in streets were killed. Houses were razed to the ground. Women and children too were not spared.
1925 Madina surrendered to the Wahhabi onslaught. All Islamic heritage were destroyed. The only shrine that remained intact was that of the Holy Prophet (s). :}
Thank God that in 1917, the retreating Turks took most of the portable Islamic relics back to Istanbul from Medina. It is a pleasure to appreciate this last act of gallantry by Turks in saving the treasures of Islam. You can see them all on display at the Topkapi Palace (Museum) in a special section. The Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) hair, teeth, cloak, and the swords of Ali, Osman, and others. Too bad, the Turks couldn`t bring Medina back with them. :)
#49 Posted by soccerman on August 20, 2005 5:48:29 pm
Please, please help in spreading the word about this outrage to press and to media.
Please alert the world media as well as media in the muslim world.
Please forward this article to your friends and ask them to spread the word.
Please contact the Saudi embassies and ask them to stop this carnage.
Unconfirmed news is that three of the five mosques designated for demolition have already been demolished. The Saudi authorities apparently covered the demolition sites in black tarp to hide the destruction of these invaluable historical jewels. The Prophet`s last remaining house will be destroyed quietly in this way.
Regardless of where we fall in religious ideology, these sites are the historical and cultural heritage of all people and all muslims, past, present and future. They are NOT the property of the Saudi royal family, they have been entrusted to preserve these by all muslims.
The muslim holy sites should be declared global heritage sites and protected. Obviously the Saudis motivated by their rabid ideology are not trustworthy keepers.
Please alert the world media as well as media in the muslim world.
Please forward this article to your friends and ask them to spread the word.
Please contact the Saudi embassies and ask them to stop this carnage.
Unconfirmed news is that three of the five mosques designated for demolition have already been demolished. The Saudi authorities apparently covered the demolition sites in black tarp to hide the destruction of these invaluable historical jewels. The Prophet`s last remaining house will be destroyed quietly in this way.
Regardless of where we fall in religious ideology, these sites are the historical and cultural heritage of all people and all muslims, past, present and future. They are NOT the property of the Saudi royal family, they have been entrusted to preserve these by all muslims.
The muslim holy sites should be declared global heritage sites and protected. Obviously the Saudis motivated by their rabid ideology are not trustworthy keepers.
#48 Posted by TheoVanGogh on August 20, 2005 5:45:14 pm
One thing is that the Saudi-Wahhabis spend billions and billions of dollars a year building mosques around the world - in Asia, Africa, Europe, North America - so they build the Wahabbi mosques, build Wahabbi madrassas, strangle every other form of Islam, including the gentle barelvi school practised by Pakistanis when they originally came to England - hey presto - suicide bombers and unassimilated generations brainwashed by the Wahabbis.
They have won - they have got the money - billions and billions and billions - no other school of Islam can compete against that.
Islam is screwed and so is everyone else.
#47 Posted by Zeena on August 20, 2005 5:43:36 pm
Salim#46
I agree with you.Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage?
Where are those Pakistani Maulvi ,jamat-e-Islami swines?Why they don`t protest?
They do every ugly thing to suppress Pakistani women?What happened now?Why it is OK for them to demolish Mohammad`s (PBUH) house?
Saudis have no right to destroy Muslims common heritage.They are just an embarrassement for whole Muslim world.I have only one wish God should take away Saudi oil and leave them with nothing.They are so,stupids,they will committ suicide bombing.
One of their biggest terrorist is hiding in Afghani caves,idiots.
I agree with you.Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage?
Where are those Pakistani Maulvi ,jamat-e-Islami swines?Why they don`t protest?
They do every ugly thing to suppress Pakistani women?What happened now?Why it is OK for them to demolish Mohammad`s (PBUH) house?
Saudis have no right to destroy Muslims common heritage.They are just an embarrassement for whole Muslim world.I have only one wish God should take away Saudi oil and leave them with nothing.They are so,stupids,they will committ suicide bombing.
One of their biggest terrorist is hiding in Afghani caves,idiots.
#50 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 5:57:45 pm
Re: # 47, Zeena {``I agree with you.Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage? ``}
Zeena,
I can understand your anger and your sadness at this tragic news. However, a people who pay no heed to individual rights, rights of minorities, compassion for others, fairness in justice, and respect for other religions are bound to suffer all of these indignities themselves. When the Saudis discriminate against Hindus in Saudi Arabia, when they inspire the Tally Ban to blow up the Buddha of Bamiyan, when they fund terrorism throughout the world, when they buy up Islam in Muslim countries through their control of mosques, imams, and madrassas, that`s when the Muslim majority should have been vocal. Now, it`s almost too late, these Saudis ``own`` Islam.
The same can be said of Pakistan in general and even Chowk. When individual liberties are squashed, when unfair treatment is meted out to dissenting interactors, when Chowk guidelines are enforced selectively, that`s when everyone should have been speaking out. When the Holy Cows of Chowk themselves get slaughtered for kababs, it will be too late.
I hope you understand.
Anyway, how are you doing? I heard about your marathon participation. I hope you finished it. That`s a great achievement. Good for you. :)
BTW, my wife is so upset at the news of the demolition of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) home that she is organizing some sort of protest. I reminded her that Saudis are Sunnis. :) That didn`t go over too well.
Zeena,
I can understand your anger and your sadness at this tragic news. However, a people who pay no heed to individual rights, rights of minorities, compassion for others, fairness in justice, and respect for other religions are bound to suffer all of these indignities themselves. When the Saudis discriminate against Hindus in Saudi Arabia, when they inspire the Tally Ban to blow up the Buddha of Bamiyan, when they fund terrorism throughout the world, when they buy up Islam in Muslim countries through their control of mosques, imams, and madrassas, that`s when the Muslim majority should have been vocal. Now, it`s almost too late, these Saudis ``own`` Islam.
The same can be said of Pakistan in general and even Chowk. When individual liberties are squashed, when unfair treatment is meted out to dissenting interactors, when Chowk guidelines are enforced selectively, that`s when everyone should have been speaking out. When the Holy Cows of Chowk themselves get slaughtered for kababs, it will be too late.
I hope you understand.
Anyway, how are you doing? I heard about your marathon participation. I hope you finished it. That`s a great achievement. Good for you. :)
BTW, my wife is so upset at the news of the demolition of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) home that she is organizing some sort of protest. I reminded her that Saudis are Sunnis. :) That didn`t go over too well.
#45 Posted by TheoVanGogh on August 20, 2005 5:31:01 pm
Ranjit
About your theory - take Sikhism - an indigenous Indian religion - in theory and on paper it is wonderful, combining the tolerance and open mindedness of Hinduism with the egalitarian spirit of Islam or Christianity - and it even acknowledges womens rights too - so on paper a wonderful message but in practice Sikhism has become as corrupted and ritualised as every other faith.
I think it is just in human nature to fail and be corrupt. Wherever Islam was born it would have failed just like every other religion ultimately fails and gets corrupted.
Islam is going through a high-profile corruption now - and by the look of it, Islam has started to eat itself. Wahhabis have not only declared war on the kaffir world, they seem to have declared war on all the non-Wahabbi Muslims too and are destroying a heritage that will never ever return and will be lost forever. Bombs in London - bulldozers in Mecca - the Wahabbi is fighting outwards and destroying inwards.
About your theory - take Sikhism - an indigenous Indian religion - in theory and on paper it is wonderful, combining the tolerance and open mindedness of Hinduism with the egalitarian spirit of Islam or Christianity - and it even acknowledges womens rights too - so on paper a wonderful message but in practice Sikhism has become as corrupted and ritualised as every other faith.
I think it is just in human nature to fail and be corrupt. Wherever Islam was born it would have failed just like every other religion ultimately fails and gets corrupted.
Islam is going through a high-profile corruption now - and by the look of it, Islam has started to eat itself. Wahhabis have not only declared war on the kaffir world, they seem to have declared war on all the non-Wahabbi Muslims too and are destroying a heritage that will never ever return and will be lost forever. Bombs in London - bulldozers in Mecca - the Wahabbi is fighting outwards and destroying inwards.
#43 Posted by Zeena on August 20, 2005 5:19:08 pm
Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage?
#46 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 5:31:09 pm
Re: # 43 Zeena,
Wahabbis, who call the religious and other shots in Saudi Arabia, are nothing more than an extreme form of Hanbalis, from whom they are derived. Hanbails are the most extreme form of Sunnism, which itself was the invention of Ommayad and Abbasid Caliphs to keep the masses under control and tolerate their ``kingdom and empire.``
Do you really expect the people, inspired by those who slaughtered the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) family, to have any affection for his house?
By the way AL-KAYDA is an extreme form of Wahabism. :)
Wahabbis, who call the religious and other shots in Saudi Arabia, are nothing more than an extreme form of Hanbalis, from whom they are derived. Hanbails are the most extreme form of Sunnism, which itself was the invention of Ommayad and Abbasid Caliphs to keep the masses under control and tolerate their ``kingdom and empire.``
Do you really expect the people, inspired by those who slaughtered the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) family, to have any affection for his house?
By the way AL-KAYDA is an extreme form of Wahabism. :)
#41 Posted by cranberry on August 20, 2005 5:06:59 pm
Dressed up and nowhere to go
I think this has happened to the muslim faithfuls of India a second time
First in 1920s a huge ruckus was created as the British/French took up the territory from Turky/Caliph. Then came around Attaturk Kamal and he himself abolished the calipahte.
Now currently the muslims in India are always in mental agony and what not since babri was destroyed. The calcutta airport has troubles expanding because of a dargah coming in way. Since 1992 they are electing crooks like Lalu/Mulayam because they won`t allow any masjid to be bulldozed. In the process muslims get corrupt administration, no development and lawless ness .An entire generation is wasted away trying ti take revenge for Babri
In both cases they made a fool of themselves by trying to be more loyal than the king. The earlier this `inferiority complex` of being a muslim but not being a pure blood arab goes the better it is. Be a confident muslim and confident indian/pakistani also but don`t try to trace yr roots from arab.
I think this has happened to the muslim faithfuls of India a second time
First in 1920s a huge ruckus was created as the British/French took up the territory from Turky/Caliph. Then came around Attaturk Kamal and he himself abolished the calipahte.
Now currently the muslims in India are always in mental agony and what not since babri was destroyed. The calcutta airport has troubles expanding because of a dargah coming in way. Since 1992 they are electing crooks like Lalu/Mulayam because they won`t allow any masjid to be bulldozed. In the process muslims get corrupt administration, no development and lawless ness .An entire generation is wasted away trying ti take revenge for Babri
In both cases they made a fool of themselves by trying to be more loyal than the king. The earlier this `inferiority complex` of being a muslim but not being a pure blood arab goes the better it is. Be a confident muslim and confident indian/pakistani also but don`t try to trace yr roots from arab.
#44 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 5:24:12 pm
Re: # 41 cranberry {``In both cases they made a fool of themselves by trying to be more loyal than the king. The earlier this `inferiority complex` of being a muslim but not being a pure blood arab goes the better it is. Be a confident muslim and confident indian/pakistani also but don`t try to trace yr roots from arabs.``}
Sound advice. Islam should be practiced as a purely personal faith. It is too potent a force, with too much history and excess baggage, to surrender to uncontrolled masses or those under the control of self-serving demagogues.
Muslim minorities, especially those in India, US, and the West, should abandon all their Jamaats, ICNAs, Leagues, and Anjumans and let Islam survive as a good religion for individuals. These minorities should participate fully and legally in their respective countries without paying any heed to the so-called Muslim ``Ummah.`` There is no such thing, never was, and never will be. It is an invention of crafty, sneaky, insidious and self-serving power grabbers who use it for their own gain.
I refuse to join a club that would have me as a member, :)
Thanks,
Sound advice. Islam should be practiced as a purely personal faith. It is too potent a force, with too much history and excess baggage, to surrender to uncontrolled masses or those under the control of self-serving demagogues.
Muslim minorities, especially those in India, US, and the West, should abandon all their Jamaats, ICNAs, Leagues, and Anjumans and let Islam survive as a good religion for individuals. These minorities should participate fully and legally in their respective countries without paying any heed to the so-called Muslim ``Ummah.`` There is no such thing, never was, and never will be. It is an invention of crafty, sneaky, insidious and self-serving power grabbers who use it for their own gain.
I refuse to join a club that would have me as a member, :)
Thanks,
#40 Posted by Rustom on August 20, 2005 3:26:07 pm
I suppose in defense of them, ( im trying to understand their viewpoint rather than to excuse them!!) , at least they are not hypocritical (regarding this aspect - im sure it wouldnt be very difficult to find another aspect where they were !) - even the king was buried in an unmarked grave, in keeping with their own particular orthodoxy.
And in christianity, another monotheistic religion, shrines and saints and virgins and churches and places do attract as much attention as ``god `` him/herself, which is probably contrary to jesus` teachings.
I think humans tend to attach themselves to icons, idols, special places etc in order to try to bridge the gap between god and themselves. If this practice is considered as a dangerous deviation from the true spiritual nature of the divinity (as it is in wahabism, and also christian puritanism for example), then i can understand to a certain extent their desire (though not their zeal) to avoid this, and to demolish ``religious red herrings``.
however, there is no more justification for their own ultra puritan reading of the Quran than for any other interpretation, - indeed the Quran speaks of mecca as being a special place in which to revere Allah, and by destroying these historic places which they are supposedly keeping in trust for all muslims, they are depriving both muslims and humanity at large of their heritage. Let us be thankful that Wahabism is not overly present on the subcontinent - that would really put a spanner in the works!!
I am also surprised that this issue has not been taken up more publicly by muslim leaders, or are they all too afraid of diluting the current hatred for all things ``western`` which is felt throughout the civilian populations of their countries, diverting these people away from their own political and social problems?
btw,the article in the independent can be viewed at this address: http://www.rense.com/general67/mecca.htm
And in christianity, another monotheistic religion, shrines and saints and virgins and churches and places do attract as much attention as ``god `` him/herself, which is probably contrary to jesus` teachings.
I think humans tend to attach themselves to icons, idols, special places etc in order to try to bridge the gap between god and themselves. If this practice is considered as a dangerous deviation from the true spiritual nature of the divinity (as it is in wahabism, and also christian puritanism for example), then i can understand to a certain extent their desire (though not their zeal) to avoid this, and to demolish ``religious red herrings``.
however, there is no more justification for their own ultra puritan reading of the Quran than for any other interpretation, - indeed the Quran speaks of mecca as being a special place in which to revere Allah, and by destroying these historic places which they are supposedly keeping in trust for all muslims, they are depriving both muslims and humanity at large of their heritage. Let us be thankful that Wahabism is not overly present on the subcontinent - that would really put a spanner in the works!!
I am also surprised that this issue has not been taken up more publicly by muslim leaders, or are they all too afraid of diluting the current hatred for all things ``western`` which is felt throughout the civilian populations of their countries, diverting these people away from their own political and social problems?
btw,the article in the independent can be viewed at this address: http://www.rense.com/general67/mecca.htm
#38 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 3:10:00 pm
#30, AlephNull {``I await the obliteration of the Kaaba with bated breath.:{
Aleph,
That too would be a tragedy from a historian`s perspective. As for the religious significance of the Kaaba, I have always found it to be an oxymoron. On the one hand Muslims abhor idolatry, even succumbing to wanton destruction of statues and temples that may house them. On the other hand, they prostrate so many times each day in the direction of Mecca to pay homage to a little black stone, that ostensibly came down to earth from the heavens. It is a meteorite and just another stone. I do think it should be preserved as the Buddha in Bamiyaan should have been. Not to mention the idols in Somnath and thousands of Hindu temples destroyed by the iconoclasts.
In Turkey, I am ashamed by the missing noses and disfigured faces of statues in Cappadocia, Ephesus, and other sites housing antiquities.
At least, the modern Turkish government is very strict about preserving our heritage.
Aleph,
That too would be a tragedy from a historian`s perspective. As for the religious significance of the Kaaba, I have always found it to be an oxymoron. On the one hand Muslims abhor idolatry, even succumbing to wanton destruction of statues and temples that may house them. On the other hand, they prostrate so many times each day in the direction of Mecca to pay homage to a little black stone, that ostensibly came down to earth from the heavens. It is a meteorite and just another stone. I do think it should be preserved as the Buddha in Bamiyaan should have been. Not to mention the idols in Somnath and thousands of Hindu temples destroyed by the iconoclasts.
In Turkey, I am ashamed by the missing noses and disfigured faces of statues in Cappadocia, Ephesus, and other sites housing antiquities.
At least, the modern Turkish government is very strict about preserving our heritage.
#37 Posted by arjun_m on August 20, 2005 2:48:48 pm
#32 by aisha_sarwari on August 20, 2005 2:30pm PT
The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.
That`s ok..pakis have a monopoly on illogical conclusions....
The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.
That`s ok..pakis have a monopoly on illogical conclusions....
#36 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 2:44:20 pm
#34, Raw Dust {``I am not sure about the etymology of word Allah``}
I believe it has commonality with the Hebrew ``Elohim`` or the ``Ilahi, Ilahi la ma sabakhtiyani`` in Aramaic that Jesus is reported to have said when dying on the cross.
I believe it has commonality with the Hebrew ``Elohim`` or the ``Ilahi, Ilahi la ma sabakhtiyani`` in Aramaic that Jesus is reported to have said when dying on the cross.
#35 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 2:37:08 pm
arjun #29, {``If muslims do it, it`s kosher....the rest of the world has to live up to a higher standard...``}
Arjun,
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Can you imagine if the U.S. Air Froce had accidentally bombed the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) house in Medina?
The jihadists would have been setting fire to their own beards.
Arjun,
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Can you imagine if the U.S. Air Froce had accidentally bombed the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) house in Medina?
The jihadists would have been setting fire to their own beards.
#34 Posted by Raw_Dust on August 20, 2005 2:35:28 pm
AlephNull:
I am not sure about the etymology of word Allah but it seems a weird twist on Al-Laath. Other godesses definitely got the boot, i aint sure about al-laath bibi.
I am not sure about the etymology of word Allah but it seems a weird twist on Al-Laath. Other godesses definitely got the boot, i aint sure about al-laath bibi.
#116 Posted by MantoLives on August 24, 2005 10:55:22 am
Re: # 34
Raw,
Actually the word ``Allah`` is not from Al Lath... but is derived from Elohim which was what Abraham is supposed to have called god...
Al-Lath actually is of later period... In the great pre-Islamic Arab pantheon Allah sits on top much while there are other deities under him...
Raw,
Actually the word ``Allah`` is not from Al Lath... but is derived from Elohim which was what Abraham is supposed to have called god...
Al-Lath actually is of later period... In the great pre-Islamic Arab pantheon Allah sits on top much while there are other deities under him...
#33 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 20, 2005 2:34:18 pm
Ranjit #23, {``The question is why does Islam inspire extreme emotions, especially hatred among many of its followers? I had read somewhere that during the lifetime of Muhammad and even later, there were many versions of the Quran. The third caliph, Uthman burnt all the copies of Quran except for one and made that the official one. I wouldnt be surprised if there was a grand conspiracy to doctor the Quran to support Arab imperial ambitions.``}
Ranjit,
Muslims over the centuries have enshrined hypocrisy, intolerance, and cruelty as a second nature. It is apparent in Muslim society, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk. There is no appreciation for public opinion, majority rule, or even inviolable individual rights. Thus, those in power (and they attain power forcefully and absolutely) trample the rights of individuals and even majorities. This is true in Saudi Arabia, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk.
Muslim holy places, and I have visited quite a few in Rajasthan, Fatehpur Sikri, Lucknow, Faizabad, and Delhi, are much better protected in India than in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and even Pakistan. Of course, the Babri Masjid is a tragic exception.
As for the possible tampering of the Koran, you are not alone in your doubts. Yes, once the Caliph Osman ``assembled`` all the verses written on leaves, parchment, hides, and paper, and after consulting with the Hafiz (those who memorized the verses), he did have the sources destroyed, ostensibly to prevent confusion in the future. Unfortunately, as questioned by many Shias, there may have been deletions, additions, and convenient textual mods, perhaps to benefit the prevailing oligarchy of Quraish. By this time, most of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) former enemies, e.g. Hinda, Muawiya, Abu Sufiyan, and others had become ``Muslim.`` The ensuing destruction of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) family (murders of Ali, Hassan, and Hussain along with most of his relatives) at the hands of these ``new`` Muslims is the basis of much tragic animosity and hatred within Islam.
Ranjit,
Muslims over the centuries have enshrined hypocrisy, intolerance, and cruelty as a second nature. It is apparent in Muslim society, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk. There is no appreciation for public opinion, majority rule, or even inviolable individual rights. Thus, those in power (and they attain power forcefully and absolutely) trample the rights of individuals and even majorities. This is true in Saudi Arabia, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk.
Muslim holy places, and I have visited quite a few in Rajasthan, Fatehpur Sikri, Lucknow, Faizabad, and Delhi, are much better protected in India than in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and even Pakistan. Of course, the Babri Masjid is a tragic exception.
As for the possible tampering of the Koran, you are not alone in your doubts. Yes, once the Caliph Osman ``assembled`` all the verses written on leaves, parchment, hides, and paper, and after consulting with the Hafiz (those who memorized the verses), he did have the sources destroyed, ostensibly to prevent confusion in the future. Unfortunately, as questioned by many Shias, there may have been deletions, additions, and convenient textual mods, perhaps to benefit the prevailing oligarchy of Quraish. By this time, most of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) former enemies, e.g. Hinda, Muawiya, Abu Sufiyan, and others had become ``Muslim.`` The ensuing destruction of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) family (murders of Ali, Hassan, and Hussain along with most of his relatives) at the hands of these ``new`` Muslims is the basis of much tragic animosity and hatred within Islam.
#39 Posted by hassansiddiqi on August 20, 2005 3:20:55 pm
Re: # 33
``Muslims over the centuries have enshrined hypocrisy, intolerance, and cruelty as a second nature. It is apparent in Muslim society, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk.``
This is a very generalized and presumptious statement. Your intolerance for Muslims also reeks from this statement. I can also make a similar statement about people of any other religions and provide examples in history of what they have done to people of other religions. So lets not get into the whole ``intolerance`` debate. Its not just Muslims.
The greed for power (and consequent cruelty and intolerance) has existed in every society, regardless of their religion.
``Muslims over the centuries have enshrined hypocrisy, intolerance, and cruelty as a second nature. It is apparent in Muslim society, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk.``
This is a very generalized and presumptious statement. Your intolerance for Muslims also reeks from this statement. I can also make a similar statement about people of any other religions and provide examples in history of what they have done to people of other religions. So lets not get into the whole ``intolerance`` debate. Its not just Muslims.
The greed for power (and consequent cruelty and intolerance) has existed in every society, regardless of their religion.