Saudi Government to Demolish Prophet Muhammed’s home

…there are two sides to this:

one perspective that cites Muhammed (saw) himself and incidentally is aligned with the hardline wahabbi interpretation of islam is... that the message is more important and muhammed (saw) should be followed in practice…buidlings, graves, mosques, historical battelground have been razed down...what the saudis have been doing for the past six seven decades is nothing new...

the other extreme of muslims are from the sub continent who have over decorated their religion to the point of mockery and near blasphemy…

the balance should be somewhere in the middle

there is one consolation: nobody, no even the saudis can dispense with the prophet’s last house…it is within the bounds of musjid e nabwi ( the prophet’s mosque) and this is where he is buried...

It doesn`t bother me one way or the other. I regard humans extension of animal kingdom, who in a freak accident developed thought and got ejected out of evolutionary sequence. I am just curious if this house is really Muhammed`s original house. After all its now thirteen - fourteen hundred years perhaps more.

This kind of Propaganda against Govt Saudi Arabia a conspiracy. They are masters of their country why others should make comments. They have right what they want to do others should shut up. I have not heard may expressions of gratitde towards them for Saudi Oil Facility of free 1 billion dollars dole for several years. They are not say what pakistan does.
One should not indulge in vice of criticizing Saudi rulers.

The Saudis are erasing Islamic history systematically. All because of their ahistorical and anti-cultural ideology. With the destruction of these and previous buildings, we are losing all trace of life and culture during the early history of Islam. The cities of Mecca and Medina and all other areas of Islamic history do not belong to Saudi Arabia, but to all muslims, present and future. These landmarks were preserved over the centuries by our ancestors and contain fingerprints of our roots. Saudi ideology is not the only form of Islam, it is a small minority form of Islam, but due to petrodollars its impact is disproportionate.

I do not care what is one`s ideology, whether one is a Wahhabi or an atheist, the destruction of historical and cultural sites is unacceptable because they deprive us and the future generations of the ability to understand our roots. Even today`s atheists from the Islamic world have Islamic cultural and historical roots.

Cultures die because their histories die. And Saudis are destroying Islamic cultural icons. And muslims sit back and say ``I don`t care either way``! It is amazing. If we are uncaring, think about the future, maybe they will not be. I can imagine one day in the future when the muslims are actually curious about their heritage (instead of being opposed to it or being completely insensitive to it), they will search relentlessly but will not find them.

And the other thing is that people today are uncaring whether our historical heritage stands or not, but they do not think what it is being replaced by. Is a shopping mall or a hotel or a parking lot more important than pieces of our history? We are replacing invaluable cultural and historical jewels with bland architectural urban ugliness that fills the globe.

Unlike the muslims, who seem to be strangely deficient in actually being curious about their history, look at the europeans. Despite horrific wars on the continent, and a much much higher level of urban development, they actually find a way to preserve their history and cultural icons.

Re: ahmedmadani

One should not indulge in the ``vice`` of criticizing Saudi rulers? Are they divine? Are they incapable of any fault?

Saudi Arabia does not own the historical and cultural sites, they are merely custodians of it. Even the corrupt royal family has to justify its rule by recognizing this. These landmarks are the property of all muslims worldwide. And the Saudis have no right to touch them.

And let us be clear why this is happening: Saudis are exporting their brand of narrow minded Islam all over the world. They have been doing this for a long time. 19 out of 22 9/11 hijackers were Wahabbi terrorists. This insidious creed is harming muslims all over the globe. The decision to destroy historical landmarks is to forward their own narrow minded ideology.

Part of this ideology is the brainwashing that is being demonstrated by your comments, that even criticizing Saudi royal family is a vice. Maybe that is why all Saudi dissidents are summarily executed.

Re: # 6
Saudi Royal family has been very very kind to our nation.
They have helped so many times to us.
They are not divune but they are special to be born in family of royals. ( now do not fool yourself, what reason we have BB, Hasina, Zia, CHANDRIKA, INDIRA GANDHI,Soniyaji Gandhiji, Raji, Rahul, Kennedys- all born in family not divine)
We get little money from USA and they make us look pathetic, while saudi royal families largeness gives billions and they never show master attitude.
As a pakistani enjoying free handouts should have shame to attack family. Dogs do not bite the feeding hands otherwise they are kicked out.

So what else is new? Saudi`s, by definition, are barbarians and they prove it over and over again. What they are doing is nothing new. Remember, when the Wahhabi filth took over Medina for the first time, they destroyed the Prophet`s tomb.

I think I agree with the Algerian eradicateurs (paraphrased): the only good Wahhabi is a dead one.

Someone once wrote that Prophet Muhammad was the right man born in the wrong place. If he had come up with Islam in India or the west, it might have evolved to one of the best religions. Since it fell in the hands of the Arabs, the religion has morphed into a nightmare for everyone in this world. Now it seems even Muhammad himself is being treated like a kaffir with his house getting demolished. What hopes do non-muslims have from this religion?

Farzna,
While I do not agree with Mr. Fuzair`s extremism, I do think that destruction of any historical sites is criminal. What do we expect from people who inspired the Taliban into blowing up the magnificent Buddha in Bamiyan?

But then Mr. Madani does raise a point about ``biting the hand that is feeding you.`` :)

Once you sell your soul to the devil, don`t complain about the heat in your pants.

#10

Ranjit, may I know by what length of imagination have you called Mohammed as ``right man in wrong place`` ? ( .... or god damn any place )

In #11, I meant Farzan and not Farzna - just a typo, nothing sinister, mister. :)

Also, please understand that people in power act as if they need no permission from anyone, least of all the average Mo, Al, and Ayesh.

The Royal Saudi Family in Saudi Arabia is behaving just as arrogantly as the ``Royal`` Shah Family on Chowk. :)

There are different standards and different rules for Brahmins and the lower castes - the same is true in Islam and the same is true for Chowk. If you really care about egalitarianism, start with the Holy Cows of Chowk. :)

Why did the gag Omar?

In #11, I meant Farzan and not Farzna - just a typo, nothing sinister, mister. :)

Also, please understand that people in power act as if they need no permission from anyone, least of all the average Mo, Al, and Ayesh.

The Royal Saudi Family in Saudi Arabia is behaving just as arrogantly as the ``Royal`` Shah Family on Chowk. :)

There are different standards and different rules for Brahmins and the lower castes - the same is true in Islam and the same is true for Chowk. If you really care about egalitarianism, start with the Holy Cows of Chowk. :)

Why did they gag Omar?

Temporal/others,

Forget religion. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is unquestionably one of the most influential personalities in history and if you ask Michael Hart- the most influential... in his life time he fit so many roles- from the rationalist refusenik to the founder of one of the world`s most important religions- the first statesman produced by Arabia- author of one of the world`s earliest constitutions/social contracts i.e. Mesaq-e-Medina- the person who literally forged a nation out of the tribes in the wilderness of Arabia and left behind a remarkable bill of human rights in the form of the last sermon.

Is it not strange that the man who is so important to world`s history is to be left without a mark? What next? Perhaps the Saudis will demolish the Kaaba- I am sure they would have, had it not been for the immense economic importance and the central power it gives the Saudis in the Muslim world.

-YLH

Ranjit #10, {``Someone once wrote that Prophet Muhammad was the right man born in the wrong place. If he had come up with Islam in India or the west, it might have evolved to one of the best religions. Since it fell in the hands of the Arabs, the religion has morphed into a nightmare for everyone in this world. Now it seems even Muhammad himself is being treated like a kaffir with his house getting demolished.``}

Ranjit, my friend,
Beautfully stated - almost like a true Momin. As a Muslim, I agree with you and just admire the wonderful way you have stood up for the Holy Prophet (PBUH). I agree, had he been an Indian, Islam would have had a different face today. Sometimes, Allah does get his destinations mixed up when he is dispatching his prophets. :)

Re: # 15
Manto -
Influential is not always good. And important is also not always good. I bet even Hitler, Alexander and Ivan the terrible were quite important and ... ahem `influential`.

regards

#15, {``Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is unquestionably one of the most influential personalities in history and if you ask Michael Hart- the most influential... in his life time he fit so many roles``}

He was almost as great as Quad-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah. :)

Re:wiseguyin#12

Imagine if Muhammad was born in India. Then Islam would have taken on the cultural ethos and tolerance of India and become perhaps an egalitarian version of Buddhism or Jainism. By falling in Arab hands, the religion picked up the tribal customs of Arabs and became the monstrosity that it is today.

A lot of scholars have argued that there is a disconnect between what Muhammad actually said from his revelations and what became the official Quran because of a time lag of several years before the Quran was put on paper. It would be no surprise if the Arabs put in hateful tribal practices and intolerance into the Quran when they actually wrote it up to further their imperial ambitions.

Re: # 19
Ranjit,
The problem I find with your hypothetical situation is that you are looking at what he said,
rather then what he did. All of us have role models in religion and i guess there are certain
bare minimum qualities that most spiritual personalities in various religions have in common.
Having innocent blood on your hands is definitely not one of them.

OK here is another way to look at it. You must have come across standard tests like pick-the-odd-one-out. Here is another one for you:
Pick the odd one out:
1. Christ
2. Lord Ram
3. Gautam Budhdha
4. Mohammed

regards,
SN

PS: Would like to write more but sultry Chennai and the current workload are not letting me :(

Yasser #15 :

Is it not strange that the man who is so important to world`s history is to be left without a mark?

recall muhammed’s (saw) words from the sermon on the mount? ... (the last khutbaa)

personality cult was the last thing he wanted, promoted or advocated…his legacy is, and ought to be his egalitarian message...

besides

his last house…and his resting place both are secure within musjid e nabwi and no power mad or religion obsessed saudi dare alter it!

rgds

t

Wiseguy...

I don`t wish to argue either way... but let me ask you this... going by your example... would one deliberately destroy say Alexandar`s Mausoleum? I don`t believe in Buddhism but I was most distressed by the destruction of Buddha statues... The point is that this is our heritage... the world`s heritage...


Ranjit,

The more important question would be whether South Asia needed Muhammad more or Arabia did...

Re:Salim_Chauhan#16

Salim, all religions have a core of good teachings and values. No one can become a prophet and come up with a religion unless they have some divine inspiration.

The question is why does Islam inspire extreme emotions, especially hatred among many of its followers? I had read somewhere that during the lifetime of Muhammad and even later, there were many versions of the Quran. The third caliph, Uthman burnt all the copies of Quran except for one and made that the official one. I wouldnt be surprised if there was a grand conspiracy to doctor the Quran to support Arab imperial ambitions.

Re: # 21

Personality cult? I think this is the weakest excuse for Saudi actions...

I am afraid I don`t see anything in the Prophet`s last sermon- which is one of the world`s earliest bill of rights- that says: thou shall not revere my memory, thou shall destroy my house and abuse my family... Please feel free to correct me...

By an extension of your argument, I suppose we should abolish Wazir Mansion and build a multi storey building there?

Re: # 22
Manto - u have a point. Taken from ``just`` a heritage perspective, i guess it would be wrong to demolish any such structure.

Ranjit -
[The question is why does Islam inspire extreme emotions, especially hatred among many of its followers? .....]
Ranjit - it has till now inspired hatred among its followers, but i guess it has started inspiring hatred among non-followers too :)
And THIS is the silver lining !

regards

Thanks for this Farzan. You beat me to the punch! Yes ever since reading about it in the Indepedent (London), my blood has been boiling. It is not the first time. Sunni ulama and others have been crying hoarse for ages about the destruction those Wahabbi fanatics are doing. This is the latest. Previously the shrines of most of the Ahlul Bayt and Sayyida Fatima az Zahra salam Ullah alayha, in particular, and most recently, that of Sayyida Amina (the Beloved Prophet`s mother) has been bulldozed.

The late head mufti of the Wahabbis Ibn Baz (may he get his just deserts in the grave!) even stated along with al Albani, another Wahabbi headhoncho, that they want to destroy the Roza e Aqdas as well--Allah forbid!

The sooner Wahabbistan aka Saudi Arabia is rid of the Saudis and Wahabbism the better for the whole Islamic world and the world in general. Right now, I`d support an American invasion of Riyadh to topple the Saudis.

Re: # 9
Well said! The original Wahabbis animals killed thousands and thousands of Muslims and tied their horses in the courtyard of the Masjid e Nabawi Sharif and they raped thousands of Muslim women and girls, all in the city of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) before the Ottoman Sultan despatched an army to deal with them.

They are a cancer on the body of Islam which needs to be removed.

Saudis are absolutely NOT human beings.Shame on them for destroying heritage for all Muslim world.As a matter of fact Saudis don`t have any right on such heritage.
Saudis are just an embarrasement for all Muslims.

I am sure that if the news is leaked to the public, there would be strong protest from multiple quarters in the Muslim world to stop this thoughtless act.


There`ll be as much protest as we saw when saddam was killing iraqis...the protests will be just like those against the saudi policy of not allowing women to drive...

the arab street will be on fire...

NOT....

If muslims do it, it`s kosher....the rest of the world has to live up to a higher standard...

I’m not sure what all the fuss is about now that the wheel is nearing full-circle. The Pefect Man and his followers began this cycle of destruction when they had al-Uzza, al-Lat and Manat booted out of Mecca, and the three hundred and sixty idols in around the Kaaba smashed and burned. It’s a scandal that it’s taken nearly fourteen centuries for the Salafis to continue the good work and bring it close to its logical conclusion. I await the obliteration of the Kaaba with bated breath.

Wahhabis do have a point. Allah mian is very insecure according to Wahhabi mythology and might get wrong ideas if devotees co-opt a visit to mohammad`s birthplace in mecca (e.g) and make it an obligation in their Ummrah/Hajj itinerary. That would be proximate Shirk so it is imperative for wahhabis to discourage and stop (being the custodians of two-holy-mosques) any devotees getting over the line and ending up in Hell for eternity for committing Shirk.

Wazir Mansion is a place of birth of a founder of a nation state, a thoroughly secular concept that only came into existence in late 1680s. Plus, jinnah aint the member of the blessed and the sacred club of Islam, hence no possibility of a Muslim really intending to pay respect to jinnah in anyother context except temporal/materialistic.


Last Sermon of Holy Prophet was about muslim brotherhood and it is really a stretch to confuse muslim exclusivity with humanism or egalitarianism. heck, i will post the whole sermon here.



THE LAST SERMON OF THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM
(Peace and Love of Allah may eternally descend upon Him and His Pious Family and Companions)




``All praise is due to Allah, so we praise Him, and seek His pardon and we
turn to Him. We seek refuge with Allah from the evils of ourselves and
from the evil consequences of our deeds. Whom Allah guides aright there is
none to lead him astray; and there is none to guide him aright whom Allah
leads astray. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, the One,
having no partner with Him. His is the sovereignty and to Him is due all
praise. He grants life and causes death and is Powerful over everything.
There is no God but Allah, the One; He fulfilled His promise and granted
victory to His bondsman, and He alone routed the confederates (of the
enemies of Islam).

O’ People! Listen to my words, for I do not know whether we shall ever
meet again and perform Hajj after this year. O’ Ye people! Allah says, O’
people We created you from one male and one female and made you into
tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight
of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most
God-fearing. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a
non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black
over the white except in God-conciousness.

All mankind is the progeny of Adam and Adam was fashioned out of clay.
Behold; every claim of privilege whether that of blood or property, is
under my heels except that of the custody of the Ka’bah and supplying of
water to the pilgrims, O’ people of Quraish, don’t appear (on the Day of
Judgement) with the burden of this world around your necks, whereas other
people may appear (before the Lord) with the rewards of the hereafter. In
that case I shall avail you naught against Allah.

Behold! All practice of the days of ignorance are now under my feet. The
blood revenges of the days of ignorance are remitted. The first claim on
blood I abolish is that of Ibn Rabiah bin Harith who was nursed in the
tribe of Sa’ad and whom the Hudhayls killed. All interest and usurious
dues accruing from the times of ignorance stand wiped out. And the first
amount of interest that I remit is that which Abbas ibn Abd-al Muttalib
had to receive. Verily it is remitted entirely.

O’ people! Verily yor blood, your property and your honour are sacred and
inviolable until you appear before your Lord, as the sacred inviolability
of this day of yours, this month of yours and this very town (of yours).
Verily you will soon meet your Lord and you will be held answerable for
your actions.

O’ people! Verily you have got certain rights over your women and your
women have certain rights over you. It is your right upon them to honour
their conjugal rights, and not to commit acts of impropriety, which if
they do, you are authorised by Allah to separate them from your beds amd
chastise them, but not severely, and if they refrain, then clothe and feed
them properly.

Behold! It is not permissible for a woman to give anything from the wealth
of her husband to anyone but with his consent.

Treat the women kindly, since they are your helpers and not in a position
to manage their affairs themselves. Fear Allah concerning women, for
verily you have taken them on the security of Allah and have made their
persons lawful unto you by words of Allah.

O’ people! Allah, the Mighty and Exalted, has ordained to every one his
due share (of inheritance). Hence there is no need (of special) testament
for an heir (departing from the rules laid down by the Shari’ah).

The child belongs to the marriage-bed and the violator of wedlock shall be
stoned. And Reckoning of their (deeds) rests with Allah.

He who attributes his ancestry to other than his father or claims his
clientship to other than his master, the curse of Allah is upon him.

All depts must be repaid, all borrowed property must be returned, gifts
should be reciprocated and a surety must make good the loss to the assured.

Beware! No one committing a crime is responsible for it but himself.
Neither the child is responsible for the crime of his father, nor the
father is responsible for the crime of his child.

Nothing of his brother is lawful for a Muslim except what he himself gives
willingly. So do not wrong yourselves.

O’ People! Every Muslim is the brother of every other Muslim, and all the
Muslims form one brotherhood. And your slaves; see that you feed them with
such food as you eat yourselves, and clothe them with the clothes that you
yourselves wear.

Take heed not to go astray after me and strike one another’s necks. He who
(amongst you) has any trust with him, he must return it to its owner.

O’ people! Listen and obey, though a mangled Abyssinian slave is appointed
your Amir, provided he executes (the Ordinance of) the Book of Allah among
you.

O’ people! No Prophet would be raised after me and no new Ummah (would be
formed) after you.

Verily I have left amongst you that which will never lead you astray, the
Book of Allah, which if you hold fast you shall never go astray.

And beware of transgressing the limits set in the matters of religion, for
it is transgression of (the proper bounds of) religion that brought
destruction to many people before you.


Verily, the satan is disappointed at ever being worshipped in this land of
yours, but he will be pleased by obedience in anything (short of worship
that is) in matters you may be disposed to think insignificant, so beware
of him in your matters of religion.

Behold! Worship your Lord; offer prayers five times a day; observe fast in
the month of Ramadhaan; pay readily the Zakat (poor due) on your property;
and perform pilgrimage to the House of God and obey your rulers and you
will be admitted to the Paradise of your Lord.

Let him that is present, convey it unto him who is absent, for many people
to whom the message is conveyed may be more mindful of it than the
audience.

And if you were asked about me, what would you say?``

They answered, ``We bear witness that you have conveyed the trust (of
religion) and discharged your ministry of Prophethood and looked to our
welfare.``

Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) lifted his forefinger
towards the sky and then pointing towards people said:

``O’ Lord: Bear Thou witness unto it.

O’ Lord: Bear Thou witness unto it.``
(Khutbat-ul-Hajjatul Wida, Seerat Ibne Hesham)
Source: http://www.inter-islam.org/condex.htm

Re: # 30

The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.

Ranjit #23, {``The question is why does Islam inspire extreme emotions, especially hatred among many of its followers? I had read somewhere that during the lifetime of Muhammad and even later, there were many versions of the Quran. The third caliph, Uthman burnt all the copies of Quran except for one and made that the official one. I wouldnt be surprised if there was a grand conspiracy to doctor the Quran to support Arab imperial ambitions.``}

Ranjit,
Muslims over the centuries have enshrined hypocrisy, intolerance, and cruelty as a second nature. It is apparent in Muslim society, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk. There is no appreciation for public opinion, majority rule, or even inviolable individual rights. Thus, those in power (and they attain power forcefully and absolutely) trample the rights of individuals and even majorities. This is true in Saudi Arabia, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk.

Muslim holy places, and I have visited quite a few in Rajasthan, Fatehpur Sikri, Lucknow, Faizabad, and Delhi, are much better protected in India than in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and even Pakistan. Of course, the Babri Masjid is a tragic exception.

As for the possible tampering of the Koran, you are not alone in your doubts. Yes, once the Caliph Osman ``assembled`` all the verses written on leaves, parchment, hides, and paper, and after consulting with the Hafiz (those who memorized the verses), he did have the sources destroyed, ostensibly to prevent confusion in the future. Unfortunately, as questioned by many Shias, there may have been deletions, additions, and convenient textual mods, perhaps to benefit the prevailing oligarchy of Quraish. By this time, most of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) former enemies, e.g. Hinda, Muawiya, Abu Sufiyan, and others had become ``Muslim.`` The ensuing destruction of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) family (murders of Ali, Hassan, and Hussain along with most of his relatives) at the hands of these ``new`` Muslims is the basis of much tragic animosity and hatred within Islam.

AlephNull:
I am not sure about the etymology of word Allah but it seems a weird twist on Al-Laath. Other godesses definitely got the boot, i aint sure about al-laath bibi.

arjun #29, {``If muslims do it, it`s kosher....the rest of the world has to live up to a higher standard...``}

Arjun,
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Can you imagine if the U.S. Air Froce had accidentally bombed the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) house in Medina?

The jihadists would have been setting fire to their own beards.

#34, Raw Dust {``I am not sure about the etymology of word Allah``}

I believe it has commonality with the Hebrew ``Elohim`` or the ``Ilahi, Ilahi la ma sabakhtiyani`` in Aramaic that Jesus is reported to have said when dying on the cross.

#32 by aisha_sarwari on August 20, 2005 2:30pm PT


The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.


That`s ok..pakis have a monopoly on illogical conclusions....

#30, AlephNull {``I await the obliteration of the Kaaba with bated breath.:{

Aleph,
That too would be a tragedy from a historian`s perspective. As for the religious significance of the Kaaba, I have always found it to be an oxymoron. On the one hand Muslims abhor idolatry, even succumbing to wanton destruction of statues and temples that may house them. On the other hand, they prostrate so many times each day in the direction of Mecca to pay homage to a little black stone, that ostensibly came down to earth from the heavens. It is a meteorite and just another stone. I do think it should be preserved as the Buddha in Bamiyaan should have been. Not to mention the idols in Somnath and thousands of Hindu temples destroyed by the iconoclasts.
In Turkey, I am ashamed by the missing noses and disfigured faces of statues in Cappadocia, Ephesus, and other sites housing antiquities.
At least, the modern Turkish government is very strict about preserving our heritage.

Re: # 33

``Muslims over the centuries have enshrined hypocrisy, intolerance, and cruelty as a second nature. It is apparent in Muslim society, in Pakistan, and even on Chowk.``

This is a very generalized and presumptious statement. Your intolerance for Muslims also reeks from this statement. I can also make a similar statement about people of any other religions and provide examples in history of what they have done to people of other religions. So lets not get into the whole ``intolerance`` debate. Its not just Muslims.

The greed for power (and consequent cruelty and intolerance) has existed in every society, regardless of their religion.

I suppose in defense of them, ( im trying to understand their viewpoint rather than to excuse them!!) , at least they are not hypocritical (regarding this aspect - im sure it wouldnt be very difficult to find another aspect where they were !) - even the king was buried in an unmarked grave, in keeping with their own particular orthodoxy.
And in christianity, another monotheistic religion, shrines and saints and virgins and churches and places do attract as much attention as ``god `` him/herself, which is probably contrary to jesus` teachings.

I think humans tend to attach themselves to icons, idols, special places etc in order to try to bridge the gap between god and themselves. If this practice is considered as a dangerous deviation from the true spiritual nature of the divinity (as it is in wahabism, and also christian puritanism for example), then i can understand to a certain extent their desire (though not their zeal) to avoid this, and to demolish ``religious red herrings``.

however, there is no more justification for their own ultra puritan reading of the Quran than for any other interpretation, - indeed the Quran speaks of mecca as being a special place in which to revere Allah, and by destroying these historic places which they are supposedly keeping in trust for all muslims, they are depriving both muslims and humanity at large of their heritage. Let us be thankful that Wahabism is not overly present on the subcontinent - that would really put a spanner in the works!!

I am also surprised that this issue has not been taken up more publicly by muslim leaders, or are they all too afraid of diluting the current hatred for all things ``western`` which is felt throughout the civilian populations of their countries, diverting these people away from their own political and social problems?

btw,the article in the independent can be viewed at this address: http://www.rense.com/general67/mecca.htm

Dressed up and nowhere to go

I think this has happened to the muslim faithfuls of India a second time
First in 1920s a huge ruckus was created as the British/French took up the territory from Turky/Caliph. Then came around Attaturk Kamal and he himself abolished the calipahte.

Now currently the muslims in India are always in mental agony and what not since babri was destroyed. The calcutta airport has troubles expanding because of a dargah coming in way. Since 1992 they are electing crooks like Lalu/Mulayam because they won`t allow any masjid to be bulldozed. In the process muslims get corrupt administration, no development and lawless ness .An entire generation is wasted away trying ti take revenge for Babri

In both cases they made a fool of themselves by trying to be more loyal than the king. The earlier this `inferiority complex` of being a muslim but not being a pure blood arab goes the better it is. Be a confident muslim and confident indian/pakistani also but don`t try to trace yr roots from arab.

Re: # 39 Hassan {``The greed for power (and consequent cruelty and intolerance) has existed in every society, regardless of their religion.:}

Hassan,
But nobody excels at it better than Muslims. :) especially against their own.

Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage?

Re: # 41 cranberry {``In both cases they made a fool of themselves by trying to be more loyal than the king. The earlier this `inferiority complex` of being a muslim but not being a pure blood arab goes the better it is. Be a confident muslim and confident indian/pakistani also but don`t try to trace yr roots from arabs.``}

Sound advice. Islam should be practiced as a purely personal faith. It is too potent a force, with too much history and excess baggage, to surrender to uncontrolled masses or those under the control of self-serving demagogues.

Muslim minorities, especially those in India, US, and the West, should abandon all their Jamaats, ICNAs, Leagues, and Anjumans and let Islam survive as a good religion for individuals. These minorities should participate fully and legally in their respective countries without paying any heed to the so-called Muslim ``Ummah.`` There is no such thing, never was, and never will be. It is an invention of crafty, sneaky, insidious and self-serving power grabbers who use it for their own gain.

I refuse to join a club that would have me as a member, :)

Thanks,

Ranjit

About your theory - take Sikhism - an indigenous Indian religion - in theory and on paper it is wonderful, combining the tolerance and open mindedness of Hinduism with the egalitarian spirit of Islam or Christianity - and it even acknowledges womens rights too - so on paper a wonderful message but in practice Sikhism has become as corrupted and ritualised as every other faith.

I think it is just in human nature to fail and be corrupt. Wherever Islam was born it would have failed just like every other religion ultimately fails and gets corrupted.

Islam is going through a high-profile corruption now - and by the look of it, Islam has started to eat itself. Wahhabis have not only declared war on the kaffir world, they seem to have declared war on all the non-Wahabbi Muslims too and are destroying a heritage that will never ever return and will be lost forever. Bombs in London - bulldozers in Mecca - the Wahabbi is fighting outwards and destroying inwards.

Re: # 43 Zeena,
Wahabbis, who call the religious and other shots in Saudi Arabia, are nothing more than an extreme form of Hanbalis, from whom they are derived. Hanbails are the most extreme form of Sunnism, which itself was the invention of Ommayad and Abbasid Caliphs to keep the masses under control and tolerate their ``kingdom and empire.``

Do you really expect the people, inspired by those who slaughtered the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) family, to have any affection for his house?

By the way AL-KAYDA is an extreme form of Wahabism. :)

Salim#46
I agree with you.Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage?
Where are those Pakistani Maulvi ,jamat-e-Islami swines?Why they don`t protest?
They do every ugly thing to suppress Pakistani women?What happened now?Why it is OK for them to demolish Mohammad`s (PBUH) house?
Saudis have no right to destroy Muslims common heritage.They are just an embarrassement for whole Muslim world.I have only one wish God should take away Saudi oil and leave them with nothing.They are so,stupids,they will committ suicide bombing.
One of their biggest terrorist is hiding in Afghani caves,idiots.

One thing is that the Saudi-Wahhabis spend billions and billions of dollars a year building mosques around the world - in Asia, Africa, Europe, North America - so they build the Wahabbi mosques, build Wahabbi madrassas, strangle every other form of Islam, including the gentle barelvi school practised by Pakistanis when they originally came to England - hey presto - suicide bombers and unassimilated generations brainwashed by the Wahabbis.

They have won - they have got the money - billions and billions and billions - no other school of Islam can compete against that.

Islam is screwed and so is everyone else.

Please, please help in spreading the word about this outrage to press and to media.

Please alert the world media as well as media in the muslim world.

Please forward this article to your friends and ask them to spread the word.

Please contact the Saudi embassies and ask them to stop this carnage.

Unconfirmed news is that three of the five mosques designated for demolition have already been demolished. The Saudi authorities apparently covered the demolition sites in black tarp to hide the destruction of these invaluable historical jewels. The Prophet`s last remaining house will be destroyed quietly in this way.

Regardless of where we fall in religious ideology, these sites are the historical and cultural heritage of all people and all muslims, past, present and future. They are NOT the property of the Saudi royal family, they have been entrusted to preserve these by all muslims.

The muslim holy sites should be declared global heritage sites and protected. Obviously the Saudis motivated by their rabid ideology are not trustworthy keepers.

Re: # 47, Zeena {``I agree with you.Why do we protect these monsters called Saudis? Why do we enrich them by supporting their economy? Why do we even call them humans? Why do we let them destroy our heritage? ``}

Zeena,
I can understand your anger and your sadness at this tragic news. However, a people who pay no heed to individual rights, rights of minorities, compassion for others, fairness in justice, and respect for other religions are bound to suffer all of these indignities themselves. When the Saudis discriminate against Hindus in Saudi Arabia, when they inspire the Tally Ban to blow up the Buddha of Bamiyan, when they fund terrorism throughout the world, when they buy up Islam in Muslim countries through their control of mosques, imams, and madrassas, that`s when the Muslim majority should have been vocal. Now, it`s almost too late, these Saudis ``own`` Islam.

The same can be said of Pakistan in general and even Chowk. When individual liberties are squashed, when unfair treatment is meted out to dissenting interactors, when Chowk guidelines are enforced selectively, that`s when everyone should have been speaking out. When the Holy Cows of Chowk themselves get slaughtered for kababs, it will be too late.
I hope you understand.

Anyway, how are you doing? I heard about your marathon participation. I hope you finished it. That`s a great achievement. Good for you. :)

BTW, my wife is so upset at the news of the demolition of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) home that she is organizing some sort of protest. I reminded her that Saudis are Sunnis. :) That didn`t go over too well.

=== Interact Removed ===

=== Interact Removed ===

Nadia Zehra #3, {``The Ottoman Empire had added to the splendor of Madina and Makkah by building religious structures of great beauty and architectural value. Richard Burton, who visited the holy shrines in 1853 AD disguised as an Afghan Muslim and adopting the Muslim name Abdullah, speaks of Madina boasting 55 mosques and holy shrines. Another English adventurer who visited Madina in 1877-1878 AD describes it as a small beautiful city resembling Istanbul. He writes about its white walls, golden slender minarets and green fields.
1924 AD Wahhabis entered Hijaz for a second time and carried out another merciless plunder and massacre. People in streets were killed. Houses were razed to the ground. Women and children too were not spared.
1925 Madina surrendered to the Wahhabi onslaught. All Islamic heritage were destroyed. The only shrine that remained intact was that of the Holy Prophet (s). :}

Thank God that in 1917, the retreating Turks took most of the portable Islamic relics back to Istanbul from Medina. It is a pleasure to appreciate this last act of gallantry by Turks in saving the treasures of Islam. You can see them all on display at the Topkapi Palace (Museum) in a special section. The Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) hair, teeth, cloak, and the swords of Ali, Osman, and others. Too bad, the Turks couldn`t bring Medina back with them. :)

How can we mobilize the Chowk community to spread the word and to take action?

I am forwarding this to my friends and to media organizations. Starting Monday we will contact the Saudi embassies.

Please post your ideas and thoughts.

thanks

#54:

relax

nothing damaging will come off this... the saudis may be able to raze this ``alleged` building...they cannot touch the `roza` in musjid e nabwi... (if you are a true believer- others don`t matter)

you just focus on following the message to the degree yhou can -- the messenger and related stuff is His responsibility...

rgds

t

Re: # 55

Please stop being turning a blind eye to unacceptable behavior. You are implicitly condoning it.

(Lest you get too comfortable, the wahabbis wanted to destroy the roza in the masjid e nabwi in 1920`s, the concept of Prophet`s grave inside the mosque was unacceptable to them. It was only mass protest that stopped them.)

While we comfort ourselves with such soothing words, priceless pieces of our heritage will be replaced by strip malls and parking lots. To me that is not a fair bargain. A people without a history are a people without a future.

If you can, please spread the word or ask the Saudi govt to clarify the situation.

Thank you.

I am surprised no one has come up with a conspiracy theory. I am sure it is the jews and American paying the Saudi boot lickers to destroy the heritage of Islam

I wish the writer had researched it a little better before putting it to the pen. The so-called Jable Omar scheme is being proposed in Mecca, whereas this article contends that somhow this scheme includes the destruction of Holy Prophet`s house in Medina, which is approximately 360 km away from the proposed scheme.

Personally, I think Saudis will never take this step although due to the continued extentsion of both mosques in two cities it must have been at the expense of old heritage. Both cities have expanded exponantially. The fear that preservation of historic relics of religious value may lead to polytheism is valid and proff of its validity is abundant around the globe, where Muslims are fully enhgaged in such vile practices as worshipping graves, living and dead personalities, and other relics. Islamic theology of any sect of Islam specifically forbids such practices and if there is any excuse in support of such practices, then they have been either invented or are extrapolated.

Personally, I don`t like the tone of this article that uses ``Wahabis`` as scapegoat for everything. The neo-colonial powers are trying to exploit the differences among us. If Wahabism is the culprit then how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally. Which only means that Wahbism is irrelevant in this equation. Muslims must understand the game plan of the neo-colonial aggressors - as always it is divide and rule. The differeces - whether sectarian or ethnic are being ignited. Muslims are being used against each other. Take for example, Iraq where Sunni, Kurd, and Shia differnces have been exploited very well and that country is not only under foreign occupation but it is on the verge of triforcation. Similarly, Afghanistan is not only under occupation but the only thing that is keeping it together is 1 billion per month of military expense.

The news sources through which this news has been desseminated are also questionable. The Daily Times is a Quadiani mouthpiece and promotes infidel ideologies like atheism (secularism) and Quadiani agenda. Tarek Fateh is a man of questionable integrity and is a heretic who promotes homosexuality openly and contends that it is permissible in Islam. The Independent is mouthpiece of rancid right wing british neo-colonialism - those who read its articles know it very well.

Re: # 58
Urstruly, How far do u sit from logic ?
{The neo-colonial powers are trying to exploit the differences among us...how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally.}
How come muslims/Pakis are considered asses but Mushy is still hailed as a leader !

regds,
SN

Re: # 58

The demolition is indeed in Mecca, the mention of Medina in the article is a mistake on part of the author. By the way, various media outlets are already starting to report the story.

You say:

``The news sources through which this news has been desseminated are also questionable. The Daily Times is a Quadiani mouthpiece and promotes infidel ideologies like atheism (secularism) and Quadiani agenda. Tarek Fateh is a man of questionable integrity and is a heretic who promotes homosexuality openly and contends that it is permissible in Islam. The Independent is mouthpiece of rancid right wing british neo-colonialism - those who read its articles know it very well.``

I think this the usual conspiracy theory argument. And it also conveys that everyone except the wahabbis are at fault. Because somehow the wahabbis are inherently infallible and anything they do is inherently right.

I ask you: Who made extremist wahabbis the masters of Islam? What right do they have to impose their ideology on everyone? Who gave them the right to speak for all muslims? By what right do they demolish buildings that are the common heritage of all muslims?

According to wahabis, all non-wahabis are either non-muslims or partial muslims, as you said. I think sectarianism in islam exists because of this way of thinking and not because of all the conspiracy theories of american, jewish, british, qadiani plans etc.

You say:

``If Wahabism is the culprit then how come one Wahabi - Osama Bin Laden is enemy while other Wahabis the Saudi family is ally.``

The answer is very simple: There is no honor amongst thieves! It is only a matter of time before a fanatical ideology will degenerate into violence.

Re: #57

You got your conspiracy theory as soon as you asked for it!

After 9/11 Saudi arabia was the origin of the conspiracy theory that it was a jewish plot. No wonder, I think Saudis had to come up with something. After all 19 out of 22 hijackers were Saudi wahabi terrorists.

Denial is not just the name of a river!

From pure point of view of aesthetics I see nature’s deft strokes the best work of art. When I first saw images of Angkor Vat temple complex, of a giant head peering down at you through the thick canopy of tropical trees and partial view of delicate ornate structure of the temple hidden behind the trees, I was completely mesmerized. Now I am pretty disillusioned about the temple. The sanitized version of restored temple doesn’t exude the same aura. Imagine a partially ruined Taj Mahal with Peepul trees jutting out of its crevices, its base deformed by the roots of growing trees and largely hidden behind thick growth, wouldn’t that be awesome. Letting your imagination take a flight and complete the missing lines to visualize the awesome original work as you do with the Konark temple, isn’t imagination better than the real thing.

In any case nothing is permanent.

I fail to see why/how preservation of a building will ease the deep issues muslims are facing today.

I am also amazed at the utter and obscene hipocrisy of those who are shedding crocodile`s tears over the potential loss of a historic/religious icon in saudi arabia. Yet its the same folks who cheered for the Iraqi invasion that resulted in the most spectacular destruction and loot of arts and artifacts from the era of earliest human civilization. Talibans and Wahabis have not destroyed as many historic sites as the Evagenlists have.

Saudis are merely a bunch of tin pot dictators, who will whittle away if they were not backed by their american friends.

Development is more important than saving old things. Those who want to save can collect money and move away where there is no deveopment pressures like in desert. All liberal are just aiming to destroy S. Arabia. If Royal family looses it will be like Iran and all people of world will be suffering as there will democracy and what not, leading to new rulers demanding extreme high prices and will not like to help brother Muslim countries like Pakistan, B.Desh, Sudan, Afghan etc. And Pakistan will be sufferer but liberals do not care as they live in america and pontificate any detrimental policies hitting Pakistan.

Ref aisha_sarwari #32

[Re: # 30

The number of time Indians think they know all the answers and have the monopoly over all the logical conclusions.]

Actually, the same thought occurred to me as soon as I read the article a few minutes ago. AlephNull`s observation is right on the mark!

Yes, it does SEEM like Indians have a monopoly on logic but then that is natural, considering their tradition of inquiry, rhetoric and debate.

#62 by malik99 on August 20, 2005 10:53pm PT


I fail to see why/how preservation of a building will ease the deep issues muslims are facing today.


you`re absolutely right....personally, i don`t see how a resolution of the kashmir/palestine issue would better your lot....not that there`s going to be a resolution you`ll like....

I read articles on this last week in the Sydney Morning Herald and the Calcutta Statesman, and was going to post something on unplugged, but thought it would almost certainly be misconstrued by the usual suspects.
I`m surprised it`s taken this long for the normally vigilant chowk population to take notice of this. I have the excuse that I only access the Western media, but what about all the devout believers (and supposed liberals) who take issue with you if you ask about Osama being responsible for the 11/9 attacks?
What I find ironical is that the demolition of a disused mosque that was built to taunt the natives of a country caused so much havoc all over south Asia, yet in Saudi Arabia, structures of true, uncontested historical and religious value are being demolished by the safekeepers of the religion itself, without a murmur of protest from the same south Asian Muslims themselves. I have to ask again: does it just come down to money?

Atleast the Saudis are consistent. They support the destruction of Bamian Buddhas and now support the destruction of Mr.Muhammad`s houses.. Since ``idol worship`` is wrong and banned in Islam, I agree with their logic. Now they should extend it to the various mosques because now, the mosques have become the bigger idols .. The ``believers`` are now worshipping the ``mosque`` more than the message. So destructing those should be the Saudi/Wahaabi`s next step.. I like this.. :-))

Reading the above made me pen this little number below. Man, I ain`t no grave worshipper but ths is plain wrong. Those at the top treat politics and religion as a big family business. Their children grow up with the property and belongings of others handed to them on a gold platter. You will hear it in their tones. You will see it in their body language. They`re all born managers.

They have absolutely no fucking empathy or understanding for the feelings of those whom they rule over. Who the hell gave a bunch of people the right to dictate to over a billion people as to how they should think or that they cannot be responsible for their faith.

And where`s the response from the people? Fucking smelly sheep.


Once, in Ferghana Valley, there lived a flock of sheep. Cute, white and fluffy, they ate all day long. They grazed upon the fresh wet grass, drank the cool clean waters of Syr River and inhaled the air swept down from the Pamir Mountains. Thus, they became cuter, whiter, fluffier.

The sheep lived their life without a care in the world. Every morning, the air carried with it the perfume of moist soil and chlorophyll from the cut grass. Every night, there was the warm safe sanctuary of a pen. Life was good and simple.

The sheep were led, not surprisingly, by a sheepdog, who was answerable to a human. Every morning, the dog would wake up and run around the sheep, barking orders for them to move here and move there.

It was one such day when a curious baby lamb asked his elder brother:

‘Why do we take orders from him, the one with four legs and a horrible bark?’

‘Because he is our leader,’ said brother proudly. ‘And what a leader he is: that growl, that shiny black coat and those fearsome canines. Wow.’

‘Oh,’ said the baby lamb. ‘But why does he look so different from us?’

‘Because he is a dog and we are sheep,’ instructed brother.

The little lamb grew silent. Growing older, a question came into his confused mind which he posed to his mother:

‘Why must we take orders from a dog?

‘Because we need him to lead us.’ Mother said straightforwardly.

‘Does that mean we don’t know how to lead our own lives?’ asked the little lamb.

‘We are sheep and he is a dog,’ is all that the mother said. ‘It has always been that way.’

The little lamb grew quieter until he entered youth. The youth knew much more of the sheep’s life. He knew now that there was another animal, a Human, who had installed the dog to lead the sheep. But the youth still could not understand why they had to be led by a dog – an animal he had come to hate. The irritated adolescent approached his father:

‘I will not take orders from someone who does not know us!’

‘You will disobey an ancient tradition?’ his father said disbelievingly.

The youth bleated. ‘He is a dog; we are sheep. He has canines; we have molars. He eats meat; we eat grass. He barks; we bleat. He has a coat; we have wool.’ Steam was rising through the young blood’s nostrils. ‘How can we follow someone who doesn’t come from us – someone who doesn’t understand us?’

The father was furious to hear that the youth had spoken against an old tradition. He scolded the young son who walked away brooding.

Not very far from the valley was a jungle. Here, a pack of travelling wolves had convened to discuss their next meal. One by one, they discussed the lands they had travelled to and the animals they had met.

Said the eldest wolf: ‘My native land has plenty of moose and they are big and ugly and with horns that are twice our length. I am too old to kill one on my own, but with team work and with good directions from the leader, they can be brought down.’

The deputy wolf then spoke of his journey: ‘On my travels to Africa, I saw many animals that ate grass. But they lived in big families helped by their leaders. And there were many predators too: Cousin coyote, Nephew fox and Uncle cat.’

One by one, they described their journeys into the different continents and icy wastelands and deserts and forests and those strange places called cities occupied by humans.

Throughout the meeting, the youngest wolf had had on him a smirk. Now that it was his turn to speak, he burst out laughing:

‘I know you wolves are older than myself. And compared to you lot, what I know is only the tip of the iceberg.’ Here he broke off into another bout of laughter. ‘But you’re not going to believe what I’ve seen.’

The pack raised its ears.

‘I’ve seen some pretty weird animals and hunted some crazy ones too but I’ve never seen an animal more stupid than a sheep.’ He howled.

‘A what? Why is this sheep animal stupid?’

‘Uncle Wolf,’ the young wolf addressed a grey-haired animal. ‘You’ve seen buffaloes and they are ruled by a buffalo. You’ve seen Zebras and they are led by a Zebra. The deer are led by the deer. The elephants are led by the elephant. Grandpa,’ the youngster now turned his attention to the chief wolf. ‘The moose; who leads and protects them? The moose of course. But guess what; these sheep are led by a dog!’

‘Cousin Dog! Argh ha ha ha ha harrrr.’ The entire night, the forest was filled with howles. That night they decided that they would feast upon these sheep. An animal so stupid deserved to die. The mission was given to the youngest wolf who decided to replace the dog. After all, who could disguise better as a dog, but a wolf.

One night, when the sheep had gone inside their shelters, the wolf snuck behind the dog and killed him. From now on, he would observe, and like a true predator wait for the right time to come.

By now the adolescent lamb had grown into a strong muscular Ram. His thick, intimidating horns curled twice before jutting forward. He had become openly rebellious too, something he came to clash over with the entire flock.

‘You are stubborn and strong-headed,’ they bleated.

‘I recognise authority and I’m willing to obey but how can I take orders from an animal who doesn’t understand who I am?’

‘But the dog is a good leader.’

‘The dog is a dictator who was installed by the Human. He barks and pushes us around. He is not one of us. How can we put our trust within him? Do we not have any pride or intelligence to govern ourselves?’

The flock was aghast to hear that. ‘For generations,’ said the ewes and the rams, ‘we have been happy the way we have been living. Nothing has ever happened to us. The human is benign and the dog has protected us. Just look at our plump bodies and our thick wool.’

The ram stomped the ground like a bull. ‘You are all slaves! The human is not benign. Did he cut grass for our sustenance or plant trees for our shade? Did he carve out the river for our nourishment? Did he sculpt the mountains for us to marvel at? Did he perfume the fresh air for us to breathe? This land always belonged to all of us. He just happened to put a fence around it. We are his prostitutes! The human needs us; that’s why he keeps us alive! What good is it to have dead sheep?’

‘Why don’t you leave us alone? We are happy to be the way we are?’

‘You are happy to live in a dream because you think that that dream will last your lifetime. But we have become weak. Tomorrow, if that dog,’ the ram sneered at the wolf-in- disguise, ‘or that Human was to turn on us, we would not be able to do anything.’

This was the truth and the flock knew it. But they were reluctant to accept the painful reality, so they chose to live in a fairytale. In unison, they all turned their backs to the rebel. The Ram was shocked. His eyes welled up with tears. He had been rejected by his own – including his family – and told to leave the flock forever.

Slowly and painfully, he turned around. Something told him he would never see his family again. He walked away from the pen and disappeared into the valley to live a new life. He never came back.

The few days the young wolf had spent living his life in disguise were educational. He had learnt the mentality of the sheep. The wolf was bigger than the dog, his fangs longer, his ‘bark’ more of a growl, yet the sheep never noticed. And how could they? If the dog could not understand the nature of those he ordered around, then the sheep also could not understand the real nature of the animal they took orders from.

If ever the wolf had any remorse for those cuddly white dumplings on four legs, it was not there any longer. Indeed, such stupid animals had existed throughout time only to be eaten. Fearsome as he was, however, the young wolf had feared the rebellious ram – even respected him.

Now that the Ram had left the flock to live a new life, the wolf was free to do as he wished. One night, he returned to the forest and informed his pack to prepare for an ambush.

The next morning, the ewes and rams had come out, doing what they had always done. Swiftly, the wolf led them out of the pen, then gathered them into a new formation and steered them into a new direction. Before long, the wolf was leading them away from the areas where they normally grazed.

They were headed towards the forest.

The sheep didn’t seem to mind. They didn’t know any better. Bleating merrily along their way, they happily followed the wolf.

That day, the forest shook frighteningly and the valley echoed with growls and bleats. No sheep ever returned from the forest.

Umer M.

umer:

bravo!

good story

the irony is sheep is growing..by last count to 1.2 bil plus...and there ain`t a forest big enough;)

rgds

t

ps: recall the words of `bu bak`r when he returned to the prophet`s mosque upon his death when omar was holding the forth?

Hmm....these same enlightened personalities - have nothing to say about
the thousands of temples and viharas destroyed in Pakistan. They identify more with
Saudi Arabia and what happens there.

Vidyadhar Naipaul is proven right once again.

Re: # 63

You said:

``If Royal family looses it will be like Iran and all people of world will be suffering as there will democracy and what not, leading to new rulers ...``

In #8 you said:

``Dogs do not bite the feeding hands otherwise they are kicked out.``

I think under this line of thinking one is incapable of imagining anything but being an absolute slave of the royal family. I feel sorry for this.

You may want to consider yourself a dog of the royal family, but don`t ask others to behave like you.

What is the price you would put on your self-esteem and the people you love? What amount of Saudi money is enough for you to consider your mother, father, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters to be the property of the Saudi Royal family?

Come, come, let us not be angry. Your point of view believes in being a dog and a slave of royalty!

Re: # 71

I agree with you. If the wahabbis can destroy muslim history with impunity imagine what they think of other religions and their places of worship and culture. When the Taliban (wahabbis) blew up the buddhas of Bamian in Afghanistan, wahabbi apologists and rationalists covered up that inexcusable crime.

Sunni Islam in India and Pakistan is becoming rapidly infected with wahabbism, and sunnis in the sub-continent have been traditionally known for their moderation and temperance. With strong wahabbi streaks now, thousands of minority muslims in pakistan have been killed and their places of worship bombed.

This systematic shift is also evident even from the interactions of multiple apparently moderate people here. If you read through their responses, their message is to simply ignore this problem or to accept it, because implicitly they believe in the validity of the wahabbi doctrine that historical or cultural monuments are threats. The more vocal wahabbis openly declare that saudi family has a special status and should not be questioned.

I think the world has much to fear from rise of wahabbism, especially given the fact that it is and will continue to be fed by rising saudi oil wealth. Imagine a wahabbi ruler of a country with a large non-muslim population, the outcome would not be pretty. Same can be said of a country with a large muslim minority. The rise of a wahabbi ideology would inevitably lead to terrorism and extremism, and I think India has seen a lot of it.

#73:

you have repeated both the mantras a few times...why don`t you try and understand the message?

duck the wahabis duck the saudis understand and try to follow the message the prophet (saw) delivered

Farzan, thank you for writing this piece. It was about time someone wrote about this topic on chowk.

Not to mention how surprised i am by the interactions over here. Its seems that history, and culture have no value to some of us here. However, this isn`t only about history, culture, and the richness of a tradition. It is also about the Islamic tradition of hundreds of years. The house of the Prophet is a place where he received revelations from God. It is a place where we muslims if allowed by the goverment could visit and learn and appreciate the times of the Prophet. Its a place where angels visited frequently, and the pure friends and family of the Prophet lived. It has a spiritual significance for the MAJORITY of muslims.

Not that this solves muslim problems. Its not even about our problems. It has nothing to do with problems. It has to do with an identity and tradition.

I suggest people read up on Sami Angawi. He is one heck of Saudi architect. And has alot to talk regarding this topic.

Re: # 75

Talha chowk is a rareity, It is the only forum , where you are getting SOME response....!1
Else where the situation is much pathetic, and I agree every One every where , seems to push the issue under the RUG, and avoids any mention of it, what to say about discussing...


Maybe..... Muslims are now considering Islam to be a Lost cause....??
and want to get over with it.....

Re: # 75

You are right, wahabbi ideology of being ahistorical and blind to one`s heritage will leave our descendents deprived.

In numerous places outside of Arabia they ordered the destruction of old graveyards and mosques and replaced them with new wahabbi ones. Did not repair or restore the old ones. To me this shows that this plan of systematic demolition is to replace Islamic heritage with a wahabbi heritage. This is destruction of history and re-writing of history happening before our eyes.

Why is it so difficult for them to value Islamic heritage and to at least try to come up with ways to fit it in their plans instead of destroying it?

Re: #76

Pushing the issue under the rug is the order of the day, as I have been reminded multiple times today...

But please don`t give up, please help spread the word.

Re: #74

With all due respect, I understood your mantra too, a while ago.

May I suggest that you too try to be consistent with your mantra (see Sahih Muslim, Book 1, No. 79).

Regarding ducking: One stimulus, different responses -- some duck, some speak, some stand. But I already talked about this above and there`s no value judgement.

If you can, please help spread the word. Otherwise, peace on you.

thanks

I think the house must be preserved as a relic of historic importance regardless of who is saying what. People can be persuaded thru education not to use such symbols for religious puposes. Therefore, it is incumbent upon every Muslim to write to the Saudi government on the addresses that author have provided.

Farzan

Thanks. History should be preserved. Whether it is Dhows, Muhammad`s house, T E Lawrence`s uniforms or the old Arab houses with the wind-catching towers.

One can possibly live quite happily without a religion. But living without a culture, of which history is a part, is a stunted, rootless and a meaningless existance.

nhk

Just a question.. I`m a newcomer to Chowk and don`t know how people here reacted to thenews of destruction of Bamian Buddhas by the Taliban.

So, I assume the people who opposed the destruction of Mr.Muhammad`s house, opposed that too. Is my assumption right?. To extrapolate that, I would like to ask if they oppose Ghazni`s destruction of various temples too??.. If not, isn`t that a bit hypocritical??..

Re: # 80

I think that the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamian buddhas was a crime.

And I think that Mahmood Ghazni`s destruction of the temples, massacre of priests and worshippers and large scale plunder was a bigger crime. It destroyed major jewels of Indian culture and history. But it is to be expected from a guy whose primary motivation was to build wealth and glory for himself, at all cost.

People like Ghazni have used religion to justify their ends, and history is full of them. Like the wahabbi ideology today, he believed in a zero-sum game of divine grace and redemption. Only certain people and points of view had worth, others did not.

The muslim mystics who came to the sub-continent had a different point of view and saw commonality between Islam and other thoughts. And they did not think or speak very highly of people like Ghazni. But then wahabbis don`t like mysticism very much.

Dear Mahmood,
I really appriciate your entry and concern but please do add some extra respect for us narrow minded people out here and write PBUH next to PROPHET MUHAMMAD(PBUH)`s Name.

Thanks.

Re: # 8

ahmedmadani saheb,

Question...

Waat happens when you put Mushy & a Saudi prince in a room together for half an hour?

Answer...

1) Mushy`s nose looks 5 times BROWNER than his face...
2) His tongue is coated with sickly brown Saudi crap..

AND....

Saudi Prince has very very satisfied grin & says ``astafigarullah!!! Pakistani tongue is much much better than Any Amrikan toilet-paper...or Saudi stone....

Re: # 27

Nasbandhi,

Aaaaah!....yet another Islaaaam ka mashoor pehelwan from wrong side of border....!

{{They are a cancer on the body of Islam which needs to be removed.}}

Yup!...to that noble end.... May I HUMBLY suggest that one