See RSS, Think Al Queda!

#81 dost-mittar

Agreed, the space for a sensible center in discussion seems to be shrinking more and more. One bright spot is relatively free media which has highlighted absurdities of both Irfan Habib (marxist ideologue) and those of Murli Manohar Joshi (self-appointed champion of hindu thought).

But media alone cannot cope with these strains: if the state goverment will not order armed police to intervene when citizens are being murdered (Ahmedabad, 2002) then ultimately armed groups will be organized and a long cycle of retaliation will take place.

Dost-Mittar

See, here is the problem.

Ask any Hindu who is proud to call himself or herself a Hindu. What problem does he or she have with Christians?

pmishra#79:

I feel quite pessimistic about the future of communal harmony in India. On the one hand, we have people who are quick to label anyone hindutvavadi as soon as someone says something against their cherished view of Indian history or even suggest that the conditions of minorities in India should not be compared with those in Pakistan. On the other hand there are definite indications that communal virus is spreading in the majority community. Read the following news item from Deccan Herald:

UPA toes NDA’s line on Muslims, Christians

New Delhi, Aug. 28: The official position taken by the BJP-led NDA government on Gujarat and alleged conversions of Hindus to Christianity has been accepted by the UPA government in the agenda paper distributed to members before the first National Integration Council meeting convened by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Wednesday. Two senior members have shot off letters to the Prime Minister protesting NDA’s influence over the NIC agenda and pointing out that “a large number of members strongly feel that the circulated document is contrary to the aspirations of millions of the ordinary people who had opposed the fascist forces with full determination and zeal.”

The document refers in passing to the Gujarat violence, describing it as “riots” and links it to the “Godhra train carnage.” The government has placed the Gujarat violence in the same category as communal riots, maintaining that “barring the Gujarat riots, there was no sudden or steep spurt in violence (in 2002).” It has placed the number of dead as an exact 943 and injured as 2,000.

Human rights bodies have placed the number of fatalities at 2,000. There is no mention at all of the nature of the violence in Gujarat that makes it stand apart from other incidents of communal tension, with the government making it very clear through the agenda that it was being treated as just one of the communal incidents of the year.

Similarly, communal tensions between Christians and Hindus have been attributed by the UPA government document largely to the “conversions” of Hindus, an accusation that was used by the RSS and the VHP at the time to whip up violence against Christian nuns and priests. The document says, “In recent years, the issue of conversions/reconversions has also become a major cause of communal tensions in some parts of the country.”

It goes on to state, “Cases in point are the recent events on the occasion of the annual religion assembly of the Emmanuel Bible Institute Samiti at Kota, Rajasthan,” and maintains that the “situation was controlled due to prompt measures taken by the district administration.” This despite the fact that Christian organisations have been trying to fight off the Sangh propaganda against them of conversions, insisting that this was based on lies and distortions.

The members, who were delivered the agenda document in Samsonite briefcases, are now extremely agitated and upset over the contents. Two who have immediately responded with letters to Dr Manmohan Singh are Navaid Hamid and John Dayal. Both have urged the Prime Minister to immediately change the agenda, and to ensure that the propaganda of the BJP-led NDA government is not given sanctity through this meeting of the National Integration Council.

Mr Dayal has pointed out that the “agenda draftsmen of the papers seem to believe that forcible and fraudulent conversions (to Christianity) are the main cause of civil unrest in tribal and other rural areas. This is a malicious myth propagated by obscurantist and fundamentalist — and often violent — political groups and their frontal organisations.”

He has further pointed out the absence of any reference to the violence suffered by the Christians under this lie maintaining, “nuns have been raped, priests murdered, churches attacked and believers harassed under the umbrella of this lie.”

Mr Hamid has taken strong objection to the casual manner in which the “Gujarat pogrom” has been clubbed with other communal riots in the governments document. “For weeks, unarmed innocent citizens were killed, forced to leave their ancestral homes, rendered homeless, women gang raped and the perpetrators of the crimes were patronised by the establishment but unfortunately it does not find place in the document,” he has said in the letter to the Prime Minister.

He said that the number of dead was between 1,600 and 2,000 but a far lower figure had been accepted by the government. He also raised the issue of the violence and boycott of Muslims in Rajasthan wondering why this had not been included in the NIC agenda.

The agenda focus for the first meeting is on education and media. Interestingly, there is no mention in the government document about the distortion of history in textbooks, the saffronisation of education under the NDA government, and the hate material that had been widely distributed at the time.

#78 Raw_Dust

Here is my best guess: anyone who disagrees with Arundhati Roy is a ``right-wing indian`` and probably a member of the RSS.

hindvi:
if you wanna do a stranger a favor on internet. Would you like to explain a little what is the definition of a ``right-wing-indian`` in your book.?

many thanks.

#68 by AlephNull on August 27, 2005 2:05pm PT
``hindvi #67

{{Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none.}}

Compare your ustad’s #44 with this sermon``

atleast my ustad plagiarises well. you have an incisive intellect but alas it turns on only when others are involved, like most right wing Indians on this site, inward criticism is a strict no no, whether of the self or of the state.

# Ranger
``hehehehe...hindvi loves dalit cock...hehehehe``

You mean I love you? no way Mr Kannadiga I am not into man love, unlike Chaddi walas like you.

Seig Heil

hehehehe...hindvi loves dalit cock...hehehehe....

#73 by pmishra2


[I am puzzled why you bother to post and read here if you aren`t interested in recommendations and opinions.]

Recommendations are usually given by people who are in a superior position to you by knowledge or experience or responsibility. As far as you are concerned, none of these apply.

Also, self-respecting people do not give unsolicited recommendations.



[Why are you wasting your time here?]

That is absolutely none of your business.



[Even stranger, why poke your nose into a message I clearly directed at someone else? ]

It`s not strange at all.

According my reading comprehension, your message was generalized enough in its target audience to offend several people, including myself.

Next time, have the decency to be more specific about who you express derogatory opinions about.



[Here is a suggestion: try to learn what internet discussion groups and social forums are meant for. On completing your education and improving yourself, feel free to return.]

Ah, that lofty tone again. I think you are seriously deluded about your position in relation to the rest of the world.

#72 Ajeya

I am puzzled why you bother to post and read here if you aren`t interested in recommendations and opinions. Why are you wasting your time here? Even stranger, why poke your nose into a message I clearly directed at someone else?

Here is a suggestion: try to learn what internet discussion groups and social forums are meant for. On completing your education and improving yourself, feel free to return.

Re: #71 by pmishra2

[Speaking about actually interest in progress (as opposed to the folks who want to have a big hangama and prove that they are better or know a lot of angrezi), here is a URL of interest:

http://www.edwon.org

I met Bishnu this past summer and it was a real pleasure to find a person of such quality and integrity. I recommend to all who are looking to support constructive change.]


While every life you salvage is invaluable and indeed a worthy endeavor, in a country of a billion people like India, NGOs can hardly make a dent.

The only solution in a democratic society, as has been illustrated in the last two decades, is free-market economics, with a responsible government that reigns in the free market to varying degrees as needed to meet changing humanitarian needs. A rising tide lifts all boats. At the end of the day, the shrewd and opportunistic enterpreneurial businessman who starts some profit-making enterprise and generates jobs will probably do more for the poor in our society than a dozen NGO’s, regardless of the motives or idealism involved.

The following is from your post #56 to googlyidiot:

[You are a great thinker and you should continue to educate the world by issuing certificates on ``fascism`` and ``progressive`` and similar hot-air.]

I have noticed for some time that you are in the habit of loftily “recommending” this and “recommending” that to others and consider yourself the some kind of authority who can certify people about whether they “actually” have an “interest in progress”, but don’t like others issuing certificates.

God only knows who gave you this authority, or why you feel that you are in a position to pronounce who has an “actual” “interest in progress” and who wants to “have a big hangama” but I would suggest that in the future you keep your lofty pronouncements to yourself.

#58 dost-mittar

Speaking about actually interest in progress (as opposed to the folks who want to have a big hangama and prove that they are better or know a lot of angrezi), here is a URL of interest:

http://www.edwon.org

I met Bishnu this past summer and it was a real pleasure to find a person of such quality and integrity. I recommend to all who are looking to support constructive change.

Re:#67 by hindvi

[Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none. ]

I think one has to factor in the quality of the judge as well.

:-)


[The RSS seeks to establish a Hindu religious state.]

Better that, than a Muslim religious state. Don`t you think?

:-)

Here`s a quote:

``None of the secular categories of life have any place in the politics of the Muslim community and if they do find a place because they are irrepressible, they are subordinated to one and the only governing principle of the Muslim political universe, namely, religion.`` (Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Vol 8, pp 233-34)



[Some of the posts by you and googlymoogly put paid to the lie that dalits or BCs are intelectually inferior in any way, they are outstanding in their ability to cut away the bull and expose the extreme condescension on display in the posts of some interactors...]


Nope...not true, I`m afraid.

The only thing that would show that to be a lie would be excellent grades on competitive exams in the hard sciences.

Re: #64 by dost-mittar

[googlymoogly:

So, how do you change the mindset of the upper-caste hindus? ]


By actually getting high marks in competitive exams.

hindvi #67

{{Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none.}}

Compare your ustad’s #44 with this sermon:
A State of Grace – and Disgrace

Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none. i was going to comment on the posting of an interactor who said that RSS is not a religous organisation but you beat me to it:

``The RSS and its followers pretty much fit all the characteristics above. But the RSS is more a religious fundamentalist party than a fascist party. Both are recognized as close cousins.

The RSS like its Nazi cousins has found an enemy in stereotypical Indian Muslim. It seems that the RSS whole politics revolves around Indian Muslims and they ensure that the RSS followers always stay on the message to demean and demonize Muslims generally and Indian Muslims particularly.

How RSS anti Muslim plank impacts dalits? The truth is that in parts of the country RSS and its sister parties like BJP draw strength from dalits too. Its religious shrieks often blind sections of the dalit population to the real face of the RSS.

The RSS seeks to establish a Hindu religious state. A Hindu religious state means re-enforcing of the caste system. ``

I would only add that the RSS very much like the Al Qaida discriminates, indoctrinates and inflicts violence on the basis of religious distinction and no other, unlike the fascists who used race. though of course it uses the same methodology and logic as the fascists as you pointed out these are religous and racial fascism are closely related and the in the case of the RSS the latter hides uneasily just under the surface. For the RSS the hindu rashtra is very much a religious inspiration for its only first class citizens will be hindus and no others. infact the whole concept of hindu rahstra rests very much on religous iconography and inspiration the rest is minor quibling, neither did the RAND scholars claim that the RSS was a mirror of al Qaida, their equivalence was based on the fact that they both inflict religiously inspired violence.


Some of the posts by you and googlymoogly put paid to the lie that dalits or BCs are intelectually inferior in any way, they are outstanding in their ability to cut away the bull and expose the extreme condescension on display in the posts of some interactors, I could almost hear some of them spitting ``seig heil`` at their monitors.

Their prejudice is apparant in their calling you muslims because that is the ultimate form of dehumanization, delegitimisation and disdain they can subject someone to. The communal posts of these people have been apparent to most interactors at chowk but now even their extreme racism is apparent. One of them was searching for new ways to send funding to the RSS/VHP, the others who considers himself an expert on Islam were propounding insta-analysis of Dalit problems and solutions, when you completely outclassed them they were left with no option but to again delegitimise your opinion.

The two of you did it and did it with humour, sample: ``Pmishra, I`m sure you took a long time to write your inane post. Unfortunately, O Turbaned Head Clerk, its all a rehash of what Dr. Ambedkar and others said and set in motion ages ago`` . I havent laughed so hard in a long time.

Chowk attracts various kinds of Indians two of these are the hard core and the soft core hindutvavadis you have done well to expose them both.

Kudos