See RSS, Think Al Queda!

#97
destroying mosques is not affirmative action, as it does not achive any tangible goal of upliftment of ``hindu`` society. so i would say, no.

discrimination against muslims is rampant, so i dont get your gripe there? its fait accompli..

i agree about not pushing reservation to private sector..voluntary equal-opportunity emplyment is however highly recommended.

Re: #95 by jang

[so given that we accept that humans have a tendancy to form groups (tribalism), we all agree that the castes in power indeed conrnered the cream.]

By depriving other qualified upper caste applicants. There were exceedingly few lower-caste applicants that were qualified.

[now, there is affirmative action, which counters this groupism...some sense of balance.]

Now would would mind destroying some mosques in north India to lend some balance to the destruction of temples for the last thousand years?

And some job-level discriminations against muslims to counter the discriminations faced by Hindus under the centuries of Muslim rule?

How about it? Eh?


[given that the most of the jobs now are in un-organized sector]

The public sector is still a massive source of employment.


[… and considering the fact that the share of govt and public sector employment is likely to be declining, there should be less conflict on jobs front]

Well, then don’t try to spread affirmative action to private companies as well.

[. whats left is the education front. there also, no surgeon trains a stupido, no IT company hires low-graders,]

You are of course, absolutely wrong on this. There are numerous brain surgeons in the US who got into Med school on a quota, and were always at the lowest end of the class.

IT companies won’t hire low-graders – you see the results in the difference in the demographics in the public and private sectors.

[i have met many SC/ST in govt offices, and find little difference in the level of (in)competence...it seems to be spread kind of evenly.]

I cannot agree with you there. My experience has been very different.

[ same goes for corruption levels. ]

We are not talking about corruption.

[i however admit that the reservation policies of the indinan govt are somewhat misused and need more oversight.]

It cannot go on forever. It needs to be scrapped. There are millions of SC/STs who are doing well, and there are millions of upper castes who are dirt-poor.

At some point of time, people need to compete on merit.

``[I swear, that is exactly how I feel about you. ]

Truth hurts. ``

Oh, I am sorry..did not mean to hurt you....but yes, your truth does hurt...it sucks to share a nationality with a right wing nutjob like you.

``But refrain from visiting Pakiland anytime soon. You might be the next ``Manjit``. ``

Yeah, and I suggest you pack your bags and head for India lest some dude shoot your brown skinned ass in the head thinking you are Arab..see, it did happen to a Sikh in Arizona.

``Notwithstanding your efforts at sucking up to them. ``

Hey, I would take a Paki over a certified nut job like you any day.

#93.. good good..
so given that we accept that humans have a tendancy to form groups (tribalism), we all agree that the castes in power indeed conrnered the cream. now, there is affirmative action, which counters this groupism...some sense of balance. given that the most of the jobs now are in un-organized sector, and considering the fact that the share of govt and public sector employment is likely to be declining, there should be less conflict on jobs front. whats left is the education front. there also, no surgeon trains a stupido, no IT company hires low-graders, i have met many SC/ST in govt offices, and find little difference in the level of (in)competence...it seems to be spread kind of evenly. same goes for corruption levels.

i however admit that the reservation policies of the indinan govt are somewhat misused and need more oversight.

Re: #92 by Stuka

[I swear, that is exactly how I feel about you. ]

Truth hurts.

But refrain from visiting Pakiland anytime soon. You might be the next ``Manjit``.

Notwithstanding your efforts at sucking up to them.

Re: #90 by jang

[i never said upper-castes got ahead on lower grades or connections alone. its just that in past, they were the only ones with any education and/or access. lowest castes did not have education or access to babu-salaried, administrative or professional jobs (or money for that matter).

ask how earlier generation got their jobs, and you will see that connections did play a role. its not like they were incompetent and were hired solely based on shifaris, but more soft-stuff like ``this bank is full of kayasthas`` etc.

do you disagree with what i wrote with this added explanation? why?]


Everywhere in the world, everywhere you look, people get jobs through connections. Nowhere is this more true than in America - famously known as the most democratic of nations. This is a human trait that is impossible to stamp out - even in the Soviet Union that tried to enforce equality, the enforcers themselves were the worst in this regard. So this question of connections is not relevent.

And as you yourself mentioned - ``this bank is full of kayasthas`` - so they are discriminating against the other upper castes as well. It is a human failing that is universal.

You will find VERY few cases where a lower caste person scored high on competitive exams, but was sidelined. In today`s India, it is absolutely the opposite, with meritorious upper-caste applicants denied admission and jobs because of their caste alone.

So there is no reason for all this whining and moaning and groaning.

``Fukcing idiot.

Why these morons are allowed to post on Chowk is beyond me. ``

I swear, that is exactly how I feel about you.


BTW, Dalit Idiot, Raw Dust is a Pakistani hehehe...sucks to be a moron like you...heheheh...but I bet you still got a Government job didn`t you...hehehe...or admission in a government college...hehehe...all your intellectualism stands exposed..hehehe answering a decent question with abuse...in flagrante delicto...wah wah...some Latin to be quoted as well.....hehehehe!!!

Oh, and do remember, you owe your education to the kindness of the upper castes. Ambedkar would have shovled crap all his life if not for some upper castes who disagreed with Brahminism. Guru Nanak abolished caste in Sikhism, and he was born a Bedi, not a Shudra. But nah, I think you find more comfort and solace in being a victim. Carry on...you won`t get much but abuse from me in any case.

``It is, as Dalit said, almost genetic... ``

HAHAHA! Dalit and GooglyMoogly talk about hate being genetic, and at the same time compare the upper caste Hindus to Nazis.

Umm, not seeing anyone except these two idiots point to genettics as defining factors in terms of personality types. Not too far from Hitler`s theories on genes?????

Anyways, these two morons are carrying on abusing caste Hindus and if someone retaliates these idiots promptly label them as ``Nazis, Racists`` and the like.

I think the only racists would be caste Hindus who give these idiots a soft touch simply because they happen to claim SC/ST status.

A non racist would be someone who gives these morons as much abuse as you would to a Khatri or Brahmin who abuses you.

#89, ajeya, pls stop foaming, try some panchagavya ;-) (just joking..)

i never said upper-castes got ahead on lower grades or connections alone. its just that in past, they were the only ones with any education and/or access. lowest castes did not have education or access to babu-salaried, administrative or professional jobs (or money for that matter).

ask how earlier generation got their jobs, and you will see that connections did play a role. its not like they were incompetent and were hired solely based on shifaris, but more soft-stuff like ``this bank is full of kayasthas`` etc.

do you disagree with what i wrote with this added explanation? why?

Re:#88 by jang

I see, so it`s an entitlement thing. So all the affluent upper caste hindus got ahead not by competing fairly, but because of their connections. They ACTUALLY got low grades, but got the jobs anyway. And the DAlits got the high grades, but did not get the jobs.

Fukcing idiot.

Why these morons are allowed to post on Chowk is beyond me.

#87 thanks.
``Within indian society, especially among caste hindus who are also mired in poverty (WE ARE ALL STILL SO POOR!), there is a lot of anger and bitterness about the ``advantages`` dalits enjoy. Ranger, reflects this kind of anger using the most despicable language.``

me thinks, its not the poor upper-caste who are the most angry. its the progeny of well-to-do salaried class of upper-caste, i.e. kids of govt servants etc who are the most angry. see, they have a sense of entitlement..my mama is ex. engg for the PWD, my chacha is a civil-surgeon, and my mother is director of karnataka state tourism board. me, i am struggling to stay afloat, in my parents generation, i would have easily gotten into surathkal engg college, if not the mysore medical. but now, its much harder.

during pre-independence and early post-independence times, the babu and other professional jobs were easy, and only the upper castes had access to these. this is just not true any more. heck, even the almost guaranteed public-sector bank jobs have evaporated. that is the heartache.

i dont think that this angry bunch thinks that dalits are racially inferior, even in their deep hearts, but they surely do seem to have a sense of (lost) entitelment.

in that sense, they are the new dispossesed mughals, and advani like jinnah is the leader of this salariat.

#84 jang

This discussion has degenerated to such a low-level that I understand why you are perplexed. Let me state what I believe is the liberal hindu position on dalits:

(1) That dalits are fully equal to all other hindus and other citizens of india

(2) That dalits have endured discrimination, violence and oppression and that some preferences must be given re: education and employment. This preference was one of the first acts of the independent govt of India.

(3) Dalits neverthless still remain, by and large, a very large proportion of the poor in india. The reasons for this are complex; I had hoped that this thread would help analyze some of the reasons but I have been deeply dissapointed.

It is a matter of deep regret to me that individuals who claim to be linked to dalits have wasted time proving ``all hindus are naturally fascists`` , ``dalits are intellectually equal to anyone else`` and other propositions which are either plain nonsense or obviously true. This kind of rhetoric is both hateful and pointless and avoids discussion of the real issues afflicting dalits: social discrimination, poor schools, lack of capital etc. It also avoids discussion of how to effect constructive change.

Within indian society, especially among caste hindus who are also mired in poverty (WE ARE ALL STILL SO POOR!), there is a lot of anger and bitterness about the ``advantages`` dalits enjoy. Ranger, reflects this kind of anger using the most despicable language. Needless to say, if ranger were called a brown monkey by a white man at work at he would have a certain reaction! But he feels free to use similar language in reference to dalits.

hehehehe.....dalit come eat my right wing hindu shit......hehehehehe

#83 raw_dust i thought is s pakistani..

here is a confusion i have. do upper-caste, right-wing (i think that is 99%) hindus of today (ok let us just restict it to chowk for simplicity) really think that they are racially superior to ``dalits``?

if yes, then its one issue, that of a facist bigotary. else, its a different one, a more econo-political one of idenitity based pie-distribution.

#78 by Raw_Dust
“what is the definition of a ``right-wing-indian`` in your book.?”

Acting coy hindu….heheheh

Here is how it works….heheheheh

1. Look yourself in the mirror, if you see an ugly creature… that is a right wing hindu/indian…heheheh OR go to step 2
2. Drive up and down NJTP and look for hanuman if you see one… that is a right wing hindu/indian…..heheheheh OR goto step 3
3. Google image for modi, advani, BJP and RSS. If you see pictures… that are right wing hindus for you…..heheheheh OR goto step 4
4. Google yourself and #68 and click “I am feeling lucky” you will find some names and monkeys… that are rightwing hindus….heheheheh

That will just about tell you who is right wing hindu….heheheheh

“Rightwing indian in your books”…hehehehe

Cute hindu….hehehehehe

Interested in flagrante delicto in my books….hehehehe

#81 dost-mittar

Agreed, the space for a sensible center in discussion seems to be shrinking more and more. One bright spot is relatively free media which has highlighted absurdities of both Irfan Habib (marxist ideologue) and those of Murli Manohar Joshi (self-appointed champion of hindu thought).

But media alone cannot cope with these strains: if the state goverment will not order armed police to intervene when citizens are being murdered (Ahmedabad, 2002) then ultimately armed groups will be organized and a long cycle of retaliation will take place.

Dost-Mittar

See, here is the problem.

Ask any Hindu who is proud to call himself or herself a Hindu. What problem does he or she have with Christians?

pmishra#79:

I feel quite pessimistic about the future of communal harmony in India. On the one hand, we have people who are quick to label anyone hindutvavadi as soon as someone says something against their cherished view of Indian history or even suggest that the conditions of minorities in India should not be compared with those in Pakistan. On the other hand there are definite indications that communal virus is spreading in the majority community. Read the following news item from Deccan Herald:

UPA toes NDA’s line on Muslims, Christians

New Delhi, Aug. 28: The official position taken by the BJP-led NDA government on Gujarat and alleged conversions of Hindus to Christianity has been accepted by the UPA government in the agenda paper distributed to members before the first National Integration Council meeting convened by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Wednesday. Two senior members have shot off letters to the Prime Minister protesting NDA’s influence over the NIC agenda and pointing out that “a large number of members strongly feel that the circulated document is contrary to the aspirations of millions of the ordinary people who had opposed the fascist forces with full determination and zeal.”

The document refers in passing to the Gujarat violence, describing it as “riots” and links it to the “Godhra train carnage.” The government has placed the Gujarat violence in the same category as communal riots, maintaining that “barring the Gujarat riots, there was no sudden or steep spurt in violence (in 2002).” It has placed the number of dead as an exact 943 and injured as 2,000.

Human rights bodies have placed the number of fatalities at 2,000. There is no mention at all of the nature of the violence in Gujarat that makes it stand apart from other incidents of communal tension, with the government making it very clear through the agenda that it was being treated as just one of the communal incidents of the year.

Similarly, communal tensions between Christians and Hindus have been attributed by the UPA government document largely to the “conversions” of Hindus, an accusation that was used by the RSS and the VHP at the time to whip up violence against Christian nuns and priests. The document says, “In recent years, the issue of conversions/reconversions has also become a major cause of communal tensions in some parts of the country.”

It goes on to state, “Cases in point are the recent events on the occasion of the annual religion assembly of the Emmanuel Bible Institute Samiti at Kota, Rajasthan,” and maintains that the “situation was controlled due to prompt measures taken by the district administration.” This despite the fact that Christian organisations have been trying to fight off the Sangh propaganda against them of conversions, insisting that this was based on lies and distortions.

The members, who were delivered the agenda document in Samsonite briefcases, are now extremely agitated and upset over the contents. Two who have immediately responded with letters to Dr Manmohan Singh are Navaid Hamid and John Dayal. Both have urged the Prime Minister to immediately change the agenda, and to ensure that the propaganda of the BJP-led NDA government is not given sanctity through this meeting of the National Integration Council.

Mr Dayal has pointed out that the “agenda draftsmen of the papers seem to believe that forcible and fraudulent conversions (to Christianity) are the main cause of civil unrest in tribal and other rural areas. This is a malicious myth propagated by obscurantist and fundamentalist — and often violent — political groups and their frontal organisations.”

He has further pointed out the absence of any reference to the violence suffered by the Christians under this lie maintaining, “nuns have been raped, priests murdered, churches attacked and believers harassed under the umbrella of this lie.”

Mr Hamid has taken strong objection to the casual manner in which the “Gujarat pogrom” has been clubbed with other communal riots in the governments document. “For weeks, unarmed innocent citizens were killed, forced to leave their ancestral homes, rendered homeless, women gang raped and the perpetrators of the crimes were patronised by the establishment but unfortunately it does not find place in the document,” he has said in the letter to the Prime Minister.

He said that the number of dead was between 1,600 and 2,000 but a far lower figure had been accepted by the government. He also raised the issue of the violence and boycott of Muslims in Rajasthan wondering why this had not been included in the NIC agenda.

The agenda focus for the first meeting is on education and media. Interestingly, there is no mention in the government document about the distortion of history in textbooks, the saffronisation of education under the NDA government, and the hate material that had been widely distributed at the time.

#78 Raw_Dust

Here is my best guess: anyone who disagrees with Arundhati Roy is a ``right-wing indian`` and probably a member of the RSS.

hindvi:
if you wanna do a stranger a favor on internet. Would you like to explain a little what is the definition of a ``right-wing-indian`` in your book.?

many thanks.

#68 by AlephNull on August 27, 2005 2:05pm PT
``hindvi #67

{{Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none.}}

Compare your ustad’s #44 with this sermon``

atleast my ustad plagiarises well. you have an incisive intellect but alas it turns on only when others are involved, like most right wing Indians on this site, inward criticism is a strict no no, whether of the self or of the state.

# Ranger
``hehehehe...hindvi loves dalit cock...hehehehe``

You mean I love you? no way Mr Kannadiga I am not into man love, unlike Chaddi walas like you.

Seig Heil

hehehehe...hindvi loves dalit cock...hehehehe....

#73 by pmishra2


[I am puzzled why you bother to post and read here if you aren`t interested in recommendations and opinions.]

Recommendations are usually given by people who are in a superior position to you by knowledge or experience or responsibility. As far as you are concerned, none of these apply.

Also, self-respecting people do not give unsolicited recommendations.



[Why are you wasting your time here?]

That is absolutely none of your business.



[Even stranger, why poke your nose into a message I clearly directed at someone else? ]

It`s not strange at all.

According my reading comprehension, your message was generalized enough in its target audience to offend several people, including myself.

Next time, have the decency to be more specific about who you express derogatory opinions about.



[Here is a suggestion: try to learn what internet discussion groups and social forums are meant for. On completing your education and improving yourself, feel free to return.]

Ah, that lofty tone again. I think you are seriously deluded about your position in relation to the rest of the world.

#72 Ajeya

I am puzzled why you bother to post and read here if you aren`t interested in recommendations and opinions. Why are you wasting your time here? Even stranger, why poke your nose into a message I clearly directed at someone else?

Here is a suggestion: try to learn what internet discussion groups and social forums are meant for. On completing your education and improving yourself, feel free to return.

Re: #71 by pmishra2

[Speaking about actually interest in progress (as opposed to the folks who want to have a big hangama and prove that they are better or know a lot of angrezi), here is a URL of interest:

http://www.edwon.org

I met Bishnu this past summer and it was a real pleasure to find a person of such quality and integrity. I recommend to all who are looking to support constructive change.]


While every life you salvage is invaluable and indeed a worthy endeavor, in a country of a billion people like India, NGOs can hardly make a dent.

The only solution in a democratic society, as has been illustrated in the last two decades, is free-market economics, with a responsible government that reigns in the free market to varying degrees as needed to meet changing humanitarian needs. A rising tide lifts all boats. At the end of the day, the shrewd and opportunistic enterpreneurial businessman who starts some profit-making enterprise and generates jobs will probably do more for the poor in our society than a dozen NGO’s, regardless of the motives or idealism involved.

The following is from your post #56 to googlyidiot:

[You are a great thinker and you should continue to educate the world by issuing certificates on ``fascism`` and ``progressive`` and similar hot-air.]

I have noticed for some time that you are in the habit of loftily “recommending” this and “recommending” that to others and consider yourself the some kind of authority who can certify people about whether they “actually” have an “interest in progress”, but don’t like others issuing certificates.

God only knows who gave you this authority, or why you feel that you are in a position to pronounce who has an “actual” “interest in progress” and who wants to “have a big hangama” but I would suggest that in the future you keep your lofty pronouncements to yourself.

#58 dost-mittar

Speaking about actually interest in progress (as opposed to the folks who want to have a big hangama and prove that they are better or know a lot of angrezi), here is a URL of interest:

http://www.edwon.org

I met Bishnu this past summer and it was a real pleasure to find a person of such quality and integrity. I recommend to all who are looking to support constructive change.

Re:#67 by hindvi

[Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none. ]

I think one has to factor in the quality of the judge as well.

:-)


[The RSS seeks to establish a Hindu religious state.]

Better that, than a Muslim religious state. Don`t you think?

:-)

Here`s a quote:

``None of the secular categories of life have any place in the politics of the Muslim community and if they do find a place because they are irrepressible, they are subordinated to one and the only governing principle of the Muslim political universe, namely, religion.`` (Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Vol 8, pp 233-34)



[Some of the posts by you and googlymoogly put paid to the lie that dalits or BCs are intelectually inferior in any way, they are outstanding in their ability to cut away the bull and expose the extreme condescension on display in the posts of some interactors...]


Nope...not true, I`m afraid.

The only thing that would show that to be a lie would be excellent grades on competitive exams in the hard sciences.

Re: #64 by dost-mittar

[googlymoogly:

So, how do you change the mindset of the upper-caste hindus? ]


By actually getting high marks in competitive exams.

hindvi #67

{{Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none.}}

Compare your ustad’s #44 with this sermon:
A State of Grace – and Disgrace

Dalit your post No. 44, other than the last sentence, was the best and most incisive piece of writing I have seen on Chowk, bar none. i was going to comment on the posting of an interactor who said that RSS is not a religous organisation but you beat me to it:

``The RSS and its followers pretty much fit all the characteristics above. But the RSS is more a religious fundamentalist party than a fascist party. Both are recognized as close cousins.

The RSS like its Nazi cousins has found an enemy in stereotypical Indian Muslim. It seems that the RSS whole politics revolves around Indian Muslims and they ensure that the RSS followers always stay on the message to demean and demonize Muslims generally and Indian Muslims particularly.

How RSS anti Muslim plank impacts dalits? The truth is that in parts of the country RSS and its sister parties like BJP draw strength from dalits too. Its religious shrieks often blind sections of the dalit population to the real face of the RSS.

The RSS seeks to establish a Hindu religious state. A Hindu religious state means re-enforcing of the caste system. ``

I would only add that the RSS very much like the Al Qaida discriminates, indoctrinates and inflicts violence on the basis of religious distinction and no other, unlike the fascists who used race. though of course it uses the same methodology and logic as the fascists as you pointed out these are religous and racial fascism are closely related and the in the case of the RSS the latter hides uneasily just under the surface. For the RSS the hindu rashtra is very much a religious inspiration for its only first class citizens will be hindus and no others. infact the whole concept of hindu rahstra rests very much on religous iconography and inspiration the rest is minor quibling, neither did the RAND scholars claim that the RSS was a mirror of al Qaida, their equivalence was based on the fact that they both inflict religiously inspired violence.


Some of the posts by you and googlymoogly put paid to the lie that dalits or BCs are intelectually inferior in any way, they are outstanding in their ability to cut away the bull and expose the extreme condescension on display in the posts of some interactors, I could almost hear some of them spitting ``seig heil`` at their monitors.

Their prejudice is apparant in their calling you muslims because that is the ultimate form of dehumanization, delegitimisation and disdain they can subject someone to. The communal posts of these people have been apparent to most interactors at chowk but now even their extreme racism is apparent. One of them was searching for new ways to send funding to the RSS/VHP, the others who considers himself an expert on Islam were propounding insta-analysis of Dalit problems and solutions, when you completely outclassed them they were left with no option but to again delegitimise your opinion.

The two of you did it and did it with humour, sample: ``Pmishra, I`m sure you took a long time to write your inane post. Unfortunately, O Turbaned Head Clerk, its all a rehash of what Dr. Ambedkar and others said and set in motion ages ago`` . I havent laughed so hard in a long time.

Chowk attracts various kinds of Indians two of these are the hard core and the soft core hindutvavadis you have done well to expose them both.

Kudos

Re: # 49 ,

Dost-Mittar : ``Ranger:

Would you like to be born in your next birth in the family of night soil carriers so that you can get qualified for reserved seats?``

I couldn`t care less about my `next birth` . All I want is an assurance that a dalit guy getting 60% in his entrance test won`t get a given job instead of me even if I score 90% in the same test. If there is a victim of caste system , its me - an upper caste hindu. We are officially discriminated against by the Indian State. Jobs are very few in India. Decent college seats scarce. And I can only compete for 45% of these because the rest are reserved for dalits.

As an upper caste hindu , I am against caste system because I am a victim of caste system.

As for your question whether I would like to be born into a dalit family - You seem to assume all dalits are poor. I wouldn`t want to be born into poverty. However nothing beats being born into a family of say a dalit IAS/IFS officer. You get to enjoy all the privileges doled out by the Indian State and yet get reserved a nice seat in a decent college , and after that , a cushy job in the bureacracy without even making an effort for it.

#57 googlymoogly

You live in a dream world where you believe that by abusing people you can make change. The next step from this, of course, is to advocate use of violence to effect change.

Our left-wing friends specialize in this: first, abuse people who are in charge of things; when they react in anger and lash out, then say: there is nothing to be done but to kill them. It is the nature of the landlord to be ``fascist`` etc. This is what bhagwan Marx said etc. This is exactly the path you are going down.

I have challenged Mr. Nakli dalit 10 times in this forum to discuss the following:

(1) Why is 80% of violence on Dalits inflicted by their neighbors and other deprived groups?
How can this be countered? Why aren`t laws being enforced? How many dalits are entering the police force?

(2) Why aren`t Dalit groups actively engaged in improving education? I have surveyed more than a dozen groups and not a single one is raising funds or doing anything about it. If you look at their web sites (take a look at ambedkar.org) they are full of fancy theories about origin of dalits, bad bad hindus etc. BUT NOT A SINGLE RESOURCE ON CREATING SCHOOLS for dalit children.

But who cares for all this low-level stuff? Right? You are busy changing ``mindsets``, right? What a JOKE! You have no interest in constructive work (as the moron heh-heh says, why should I collect pennies for this and that) and you want to change mindsets? No one will ever respect you until they see that there is a positive attitude within yourself.


Among a certain class of ``progressive`` indians, learning a few long words like ``fascism`` and ``marxism`` passes for actual thinking. Your posts are a vivid demonstration of this type of spurious intellectual. Your best bet is to find a nice european liberal who will be impressed with your ramblings. They may give you some euros or dollars and send you to the UN. But in terms of actually making change happen you are a complete zero.

googlymoogly:

So, how do you change the mindset of the upper-caste hindus? With the approach you have taken, I can see that you have antagonised a lot of upper caste hindus but have not changed the mindset of even a single person on this forum. And believe you me, these are the enlightened ones. Do I need to tell you that ordinary upper caste hindu is much more closed-minded than the sample you see at chowk?

Googly-Idiot aka Dalit-Mullah

Some of that shit has entered your brains. Now you are unsuitable for any other job.

Except for a Mullah`s job.

:-D


By the way, how do you explain your children`s low grades to your children? Do they believe you when you tell them that their low math grades is the upper-caste Hindus` fault?


:-D

Good post googly!

These people are clueless! Have no idea what the problems are but would like to solve them….hehehehehehe
Typical caste hindu mindset....hehehehe...they want to help dalit.....hehehehe....want to drop a couple of coins in the poor dalit`s bucket....heheheheh...

dost-mittar, here`s a question for you, pmishra and your ilk. Why is it that in the midst of numerous grossly racist posts by so many other people, in the midst of violence, hatred and discrimination directed at Dalits at all social levels, in the midst of the *approval* of racist hatred by many posters of this forum, your accusations of ``hatred`` are ALWAYS directed at the people who protest racism and casteism?? You`re like the folks who ignored the entire racist south to single out Dr. King for the accusation of hate. I never saw of pmishra you getting this vehement for any of the Dalit-hating posts. Something`s wrong with your mindset.

The mindset is what I want to see changed. You change pathologies by exposing their pathological nature. What is it that makes you unable to open your mouth against racism/casteism but only against those who protest it? What is it that makes you unable to tolerate a Dalit taking the intellectual lead in anything? Why always the need to falsify history, take the credit away from Dalits, be intellectually overbearing? You say you want to fight casteism? I`ll take you at your word, and show you what`s casteist about your attitude, pmishra`s attitude. Dalit gave very interesting and relevant information - he always does. Information about the many levels of prejudice Dalits face - from the physically violent to the psychologically violent. This is meant to show you aspects of caste-Hindu behaviour that are pathological, aspects of our society that are pathological, aspects of this ``Hindu-pride`` movement you all subscribe to that are pathological. It is easier to change once you see the pathological pattern clearly.

Instead of listening to this, taking note of it, asking why these pathologies exist in your minds and at all levels of socety the first thing all of you do is say ``Tut tut Dalit, let ME tell you what the problem REALLY is, you are Hateful, you are Stupid, you are Wrong, you are Illiterate, Uneducated etc etc, you Really Don`t Know Anything, let US define this problem``. So - you know better than Dalits who face this nonsense personally, better than Dalit activists, Dalit intellectuals, you know better than all these people how the problem should be framed and solved. That`s intellectual bullying at its worst! It shows a rankly un-egalitarian attitude - the utter inability to treat people as equals, to listen to people as equals, to even allow people to define the discrimination THEY, not you, face. Don`t you realize how deadly and loaded caste-Hindu intellectual bullying is? Don`t you know its sordid history?

Dalit will have to speak for himself, but MY aim is to point out your pathological behaviour, which sanctions and creates approval for the cruder physical terror Dalits face, which drastically affects their quality of life. Look at the crudity of the ``debate`` on reservations. Ever sat in a classroom and had a vicious and hostile teacher demean your contributions and intellect at every turn? Imagine this exclusion from learning perpetrated on generations and generations of people, BY generations and generations of people and think of how greedy and unfair the caste-Hindu hatred of reservations is. As if there was ever equality of opportunity for ``merit`` to be an issue at all!! Can you really speak of ``merit`` when even caste-Hindu retards get major preferential treatment over Dalit intellectuals? One set of people has to face racist slurs and hatred every single day, while the worst stupidities of the other set are overlooked. Merit indeed!! Doesn`t it bother you that some people think that thousands of years of reservations for caste-Hindus is OK, but 50 years of reservations for dalits is already ``too much``?

Look at the racist, hostile, anti-reservations rants here. If your conscience has no problem with the prevalence of such sentiments, then you are mentally ill! You and pmishra DON`T want to change anything or demolish casteism, you just want to acquire a ``liberal`` tag for yourselves, India and Hinduism, and you want to acquire it for cheap!!

People who DO have a conscience genuinely want to demolish casteism and stigmatize casteism so people will be as ashamed of it as they would be of pedophilia. Such people will not cheaply award the ``liberal`` tag to anyone, particularly not people who are mulishly resistant to having their own racism pointed out, and who prefer to grandstand and lecture the victims of racism instead.

#58 by dost-mittar
“Aren`t you better off making alliance with those like pmishra”

Hehehehehe….no you don’t make alliances with people representing the RSS….hehehehehe…. give you benefit of doubt….hehehehe…let see how you read his good intention….hehehehe

#56 by pmishra2
“I am glad to see that this is in fact starting to happen in India. It is a striking aspect of the indian state that it put into place amends for historical wrongs starting in 1947 (20 years before the soooo advanced people in the west realized that they owed similar compensation to their own minorities).”

Discuss issues with this kind of ignorant?....hehehehe

Now here is an issue for him to discuss….hehehehe…let see how much brainfart he has to even understand what the issue is….hehehehe… he wants to discuss issues…hehehehe

“It is interesting that the Supreme Court has stuck down the provisions of the reservations for the marginalized but allowed special quota for the non-resident Indians? What does it means? That any person living abroad can get into these institutions but not the people who are living in India and living the life of the marginalized.”

Here is another one for this problem solver….hehehehehe…

“the government to fulfill the backlog of the quota reserve for Dalits in the Central government. Accordingly, there should have been 17.5% Dalit IAS officiers and 7.5% tribal IAS officers in the Central government but the situation is rather grim.”

The basic social issue is hindu mindset….hehehehe…they need to teach their kids the right things….hehehee…only then the mindset would change in the next three or four generation….until then….dalit economic rights should take precedence over everything else.... hehehehehe

Re: various by googly-ullah aka dalit-uddin

Islam is your way out.

You and Islam are made for each other.

By the way, how are your children`s grades? As compared to the upper-caste hindu children?

Are the upper caste hindus getting ``superior`` grades?

It`s not fair, I tell you!


:-)

goodlymoogly:

Here is a question for you:

What is your agenda: to destroy casteism or to destroy upper caste Hindus? If it is the former, you have the support of all Hindus on this website with one or two notable exceptions. If it is the latter, could you please tell me how you intend to do it? Despite some significant gains in the last half century -gains which you are not willing to acknowledge anyway- power in India rests firmly in the hands of upper caste hindus. Are you in a position to take them on by saying you are out to destroy them? It is one thing to say that gross injustices exist and another to say, ``you are evil and I want to destroy you``. How are you any different from those sanghis who want to punish the current generation of Muslims for the acts of Nadir Shah or Aurangzeb? Aren`t you better off making alliance with those like pmishra who are willing to acknowledge the past misdeeds of their ancestors and are apparently eager to work with you to undo some of those injustices?

Arjun_m, I`m not the poster named ``Dalit``, so please don`t include me in your revenge fantasies.

Pmishra, I`m sure you took a long time to write your inane post. Unfortunately, O Turbaned Head Clerk, its all a rehash of what Dr. Ambedkar and others said and set in motion ages ago... Building schools doesn`t erase the casteist, racist, overbearing mindset of people like you... Racism and Casteism require a different set of parameters to analyse and tackle, but nice job plagiarising and compiling.....

#54 googlymoogly = nakli dalit = hatemonger

WE all have experience of people like you who make a living out of hatred. Some of these people have become quite successful as politicians (e.g., advani, bal thackeray, karat) and netas so we understand why you think this is great. But just because you use some long words doesnt make you any different from a bajrang dal goon or a maoist extremist or any other divisive hate monger.

You can pass 10,000 resolutions in the UN but until we have good schools for all indians it wont make the slightest difference. You can parrot Manu smriti, Ambedkar, Karat, Marx all day and night and ``prove`` that hindus becomes fascist in their mothers womb and it still wont change a single thing. What will change things is when dalits (and tribals) and other backward sections have better jobs and a solid middle class. What will change things is when there are more dalits and tribals in our police and adminsitrative forces.

I am glad to see that this is in fact starting to happen in India. It is a striking aspect of the indian state that it put into place amends for historical wrongs starting in 1947 (20 years before the soooo advanced people in the west realized that they owed similar compensation to their own minorities).

But why should you care about these silly common-sense things? Why bother about trivial things like building schools, getting more backward youth into college, more dalit small businesses etc. These are boring and useless issues that are somebody elses problem. You are a great thinker and you should continue to educate the world by issuing certificates on ``fascism`` and ``progressive`` and similar hot-air.

Hello Dalit....how`re your ``corporate servers`` doing? The ones I hacked into to get your personal information....hehehe....

Watch out for people execting CGI scripts on your servers....

Pmisra, of course, you believe you`ve said the most intelligent thing on this forum so far. You remind me of lonely men on elevators who smile proudly after they fart.

>>>Nakli Dalit
Oh really? Did a divine being whisper this knowledge in your ear? I guess they`re giving ISI agents the Collected Works of Dr. Ambedkar to read, eh?? And how do we know YOU`RE not a German neo-Nazi trolling this site? Nakli Indian, that`s what YOU are... One of those megalomaniac Brahmin NRIs who want to keep their fascist grip over the Indian scene, even when they`re citizens of some other country...

>>>>>>is a well known demagogue and hate monger; using hateful and ultimately racist language he wants to provoke people.

Yeah riiiiiight - and you`re not racist at all to pounce on the only Dalit perspective and scream ``fake!``... I guess ``real`` dalits for you, would not, as you angrily say ``use long words``...maybe ``real dalits``, the kind you approve of, and award the supreme gift of recognition to, wear tattered clothes and sweep houses, being careful not to use long words and anger Pandoo Mishra.....

>>>The real question is education and self-improvement.

Of course, only P(andoo) Mishra has the right to tell us, in his own words, what the REAL issue is... Need a clerk Sahib? Need verygood precis writer Sahib? Pandoo Mishra at your disposal Sahib, fullsummingup done in 3 languages.... Dr. Ambedkar is wrong, Dalit is wrong, P Mishra`s plagiarised inanities are RIGHT.

>>>How can we make pie larger for EVERYBODY?

*SOB* How indeed? First, call all Dalits and BCs who protest racism, (especially while using long words) ``fake``, and of course, racist. Just as the KKK called Dr. Martin Luther King a racist, pmishra`s followers must call anti-racists, racists. PMishra`s methods of course include a Hindu form of ``dawa``, which Dalit has rather humorously rejected in the past, which must explain PMishra`s ire.

>>>>But these bevakoofs dont care.

Sniff, truly! Only Pmishra cares. Dalits just care about oppressing themselves, while using long words. How to make pie larger for EVERYBODY?? (while keeping the proportion of division the same??) Pmishra to the rescue Sahib!

>>>most of them are racists and shtups of the first order

True dat! They are known worldwide for this. The reason Indians are detested all over Africa, in Fiji, Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica is that other ethnic groups are very familiar with their racism... I`ve had Africans from the Caribbean tell me that among Indians, the Hindus are always the worst racists, much worse than whites. Muslims and Christians are not so bad. I`ve been on African-American forums and Indians are always the worst racists with the most foul mouths. Even the rednecks don`t descend to the same crude levels.... So other folks also know all about caste-Hindu pathologies...

Durban was good, highlighted Indian apartheid - slow, sure steps - steady documentation of abuses and racism is needed... The violence Muslims faced at VHP hands is what Dalits have been facing at caste-Hindu hands for centuries.

Caste Hindus are very good fascist material, excellent ethnic cleansers. They have centuries of practice at dehumanizing people, terrorising people, using techniques of shunning, exclusion, carefully calibrated hate...

It is, as Dalit said, almost genetic...

Re # 51

``Modi visa denial ``

I do not care whether Modi could come to USA or not but what was achieved by
denying him US Visa? What purpose did it accomplish?

Just asking a question or two.

I must admit to baiting Sanghis into airing their fantasies of murder on forums in the past. I put them all into my reports - all the activists who worked on the Modi visa denial found Sanghi rantings online so useful. We couldn`t believe these sorry retards would be so open about their hate! Heheheee - look where it got them...

The casteist rantings will have a similar fate :) :)...

Dalit, post #44, excellent profile of proto-fascist traits... Early RSS ideologues met Mussolini, admired the black shirts - Maria Casolari has done great research on this. The RSS is called fascist so often because they openly admired the fascist model and sought to emulate it. Fascist organizations are obviously going to be highly authoritarian - casteism would be a virtue... If the RSS attracts dalits, its only by holding out promises they cannot fulfill. Dalits who ever supported them should have realized that post-Godhra when all the media seemed to be interested in were the 10% Dalit faces in the mob...Even in ordinary interactions, ashamed caste-Hindus like to blame everything on dalits - you`ll often see them do that with every riot - should be enough of a warning to dalits never to support them...Its a different story that in Gujarat, the VHP terrorised dalits as well and left them few options.

I`m thrilled that Ranger and others are openly airing their hatred and racism on this site....Just as the rantings of Sanghis served very well to indict their sorry fascist arses, the rantings of casteists will also be very useful documentation... Great goldmine for anthropologists examining caste-Hindu pathologies :) :). Anthropologists and human rights organizations need all the material they can get, and racist Hindus are VERY forthcoming. PhD students could (and do!) take great notes here, let these loving interactions go into books, let them go down in history.

Please don`t hold back - we need every single bit of documentation and demonstration for the continuing fact of racism. Thanks! Continue!

Ranger:

Would you like to be born in your next birth in the family of night soil carriers so that you can get qualified for reserved seats?

Ranger = Dalit = complete nut jobs

Foolish people, using long words and abuse to say silly things to each other. Nakli Dalit is a well known demagogue and hate monger; using hateful and ultimately racist language he wants to provoke people. Ranger seems to be as big a fool, using hateful language about the past (Ranger, would you enjoy the kind of language the racist britishers used about indians?).

The real question is education and self-improvement. How can we make pie larger for EVERYBODY? But these bevakoofs dont care. They are worse than a pair of uneducated village people fighting each other because they claim to be educated. Truly a sad spectacle.

Dalit , tell me , did you slip and fall into the village dump full of excreta of upper caste hindooos when you were a kid ? Was it fun ?

Dalit...I undertsand your hatred for hindooos. After all your mommy and daddy probably still work as night soil carriers , transferring the excreta of upper caste hindooos from toilet to the village dump for a living ....

Based on my previous post #44, I dare to analyze the posters here.

The first plank is that no dirty linen should be on display on this Pakistani site. This goes to the their fascist ideology that I mentioned in my post below.
“a thorough distaste for critical analysis, indeed for criticism of any sort.”

Dub any critic as “Muslim” because Muslim is the enemy and the Hindu ideology is so superior that only a “Muslim enemy” can speak ill of Hindu.
“RSS followers always stay on the message to demean and demonize Muslims”

Then we see a desire and condescending posts to discuss “issues”. If one were to go thru their posts it is quiet obvious that these posters lack any intellectual strength to discuss any issue much less the dalit issues. But the real desire behind their post is:
“We, together, are the best, we are the finest, and we have the right answers”

Then we see some come in and talk about liberal Hindus. When it comes down to caste and untouchables there are no liberal Hindus. How many liberal Hindus have ever lived in untouchable neighborhoods? How many would go down and clean bathrooms with untouchables? Would they clean their own bathrooms themselves in India? Not the European style but the real toilets.

How many times they clean their own bathrooms in the US? Most of their houses have the dirtiest bathrooms for American standards.

The nub of the story is that all of them are racist and shtups of the top order.

Subhash stands on thin ice when he takes the American interpretation of terrorism and applies that to the RSS. The US actually opposes a single interpretation of terrorism in the UN. In the absence of a one good interpretation of terrorism, it is more of a buzzword in the current geopolitical environments than anything else. Previously, the word fascism was extensively used and militant-fringe political ideologies of extreme right were dubbed as fascist. Now, almost the same groups go as terrorist.

Is the RSS terrorist or a fascist outfit as one poster has suggested.

The RSS admin model closely follows the Nazi, or the Italian fascist party set up. In the current world fascism is actually imbibed in an ideology and not in the admin set up of a political party.

What is fascism or the currently popular proto-fascism?

The first characteristic of proto-fascism is a cult of traditions that appeals to varied sectors of the population. And notice that a “cult” — not a respect for tradition, not a reverence for tradition, but a cult, a closed system of absolutes.

The second characteristic is the state of disgrace, a thorough distaste for critical analysis, indeed for criticism of any sort. Criticism threatens the cohesion of those contradictory traditions.

A third characteristic of fascism, related to this anti-intellectualism, is a cult of masculine action. What is important to the fascist is not so much the right or wrong or wisdom of the course one pursues, but that one pursues the course with manly boldness, determined and decisive. Second thoughts, self-doubt, contemplation, questioning, squeamishness, even a desire for more information —these, in the fascist view, all weaken the will and subvert the determination to succeed.

A fourth characteristic is a strange marriage of populism and elitism. We can see that marriage in the popular expression, “We, together, are the best, we are the finest, and we have the right answers, the right action.” But behind this self-congratulating facade of populism is an individualist elitism, a firm belief that only a few people embody the virtues so perfectly that they have a right — and a duty — to be at the head of the body politic. Examined closely, such a view means that the body politic, the populist mass, is regarded with a certain amount of contempt. The mass does not possess the sterling qualities of wisdom and determination embodied in the leadership.
And finally, constant supervision and correction are necessary because of the enemies.

The primary disgrace of fascism is that it cannot survive without enemies.

There are always enemies, an axis of evil within and outside the body politic. But fascist enemies are very strange. They are, like the Nazis’ stereotypical Jew, at one and the same time terribly dangerous and easily defeated.

At bottom, fascism grows in a compost of free-floating anxiety and frustration. It shows a profound need to squelch that anxiety with absolute certainty and mob conformity, and it relieves its frustration with decisive action against the enemies anxiety has created.

The RSS and its followers pretty much fit all the characteristics above. But the RSS is more a religious fundamentalist party than a fascist party. Both are recognized as close cousins.

The RSS like its Nazi cousins has found an enemy in stereotypical Indian Muslim. It seems that the RSS whole politics revolves around Indian Muslims and they ensure that the RSS followers always stay on the message to demean and demonize Muslims generally and Indian Muslims particularly.

How RSS anti Muslim plank impacts dalits? The truth is that in parts of the country RSS and its sister parties like BJP draw strength from dalits too. Its religious shrieks often blind sections of the dalit population to the real face of the RSS.

The RSS seeks to establish a Hindu religious state. A Hindu religious state means re-enforcing of the caste system.

The Hindu religion is a hotchpotch of pagan rituals and in essence its only agreement is on the caste system. The RSS and its followers make hilarious claims about abolishing of castes but the inherent contradiction in their claims and the nature of the Hindu religion makes it just a tactical ploy to gain dalit support against the Muslims.

Hindu religion is NOT reformable therefore; any one who supports converting India into a Hindu fundamentalist state is an enemy of dalits.

The Hindu caste system is another form of racism and apartheid. The racism is part of Hindu genes if “genes” can describe how deeply caste-ism is ingrained in the caste Hindu psyche.

GooglyMoogly`s post is such crap. He claims that upper caste hindus force dalits into tiolet cleaning whatever. Not a word of how freakin low caste shoodras like him are reserved 50% of the seats in all professional engineering and medical colleges in India including the IITs , and coveted jobs like IAS , IFS , IES...

GooglyMoogly...of course dalits are dumb. What do you expect ? You people dont get seats in colleges or jobs because of your intelligence or your academic performance - but inspite of it. If you get into a decent college , its only because you were born as a dalit. If you get into the IAS , its because you are a bhangi. For a upper caste guy to get into say comp. science in a top engineering college he has to get a rank of under 100 or 200. A dalit because can get the same seat with a ranking of 5000. Its only natural for the upper caste guy not to treat his dalit classmate as his equal. Its only natural for teachers to mock at the dalit students - because they dont deserve to be there in the first place , having got there on only because of the accident of their birth into a dalit household.

Compete with us - the upper caste hindus - who you hate so much on an equal basis if you want respect. Try to get something you want without the aid of reservations. Until then , you are just shit.

Dost-Mittar....you are such an idiot. I dont give a f-uck about hindu society. Hindu society , hindu religion can f-uck itself for all I care. I care about jobs and college seats. Over 50% of which are not available to me because they are reserved for scheduled caste , scheduled tribes and other backward castes. Soon reservations will also be introduced in the private sector. What that means is that a dalit with a score of 60% in his entrance exams will have better chances of landing a given seat than me even if I get 90%. Most upper caste hindus who live in India and compete for seats in colleges or jobs feel the same way as I do about these lucky bhangis. I`m surprised you are not aware of this. Please dont make a display of your ignorance.

Re: #23 by Dost Mittar

[It relies instead on the real and imagined historical grievances against a minority which is no longer powerful. It is more akin to German nazis than Al Qaeda.]

Could you list out some of these ``imagined`` grievances?

German Nazis killed MILLIONS of Jews. In spite of the fact that Jews NEVER ruled over or oppressed them.

RSS never killed ANY muslims. In spite of the fact that the Muslims HAVE ruled over Hindus for centuries. And oppressed them like few few people have been oppressed.

Think a little before posting.

Ranger#30:

Are you sure you are a young Kannadiga? Your attitude is more like that of my father`s generation. If you are indeed young and if even 10% of upper caste hindus think like you, then the Hindu society is still in deep dodo.

#36 Kaalchakra, Ajeya

I have challenged this nakli dalit several times to discuss the real issues concerning dalits today: violence from neighbors and other historically backward groups, lack of education and disinterest from dalit organizations in education (after a years search I have only found one dalit organization that seeks funds for dalit education).

Needless to say he has never answered me and never will. Because his interest is only in vomiting out garbage from manu smriti and dalitstan.org. All this is just a crude way of practicing identity politics and baiting indians. Unfortunately it is popular in india and elsewhere as a way to create ``vote banks`` and as a way to create extreme divisions between people. SO this loser thinks its a wonderful thing....

I condemn posters who are losing their temper with nakli dalit and then resorting to unacceptable name calling concerning dalits. Don`t let this individual dignify himself by pretending to speak for the long suffering and struggling dalits. He does not. He is a just a plain old Arundhati Roy/Bal Thackaeray/Togadia type of scoundrel. Treat him accordingly!

This ``Dalit`` and ``googlymoogly`` are more interested in the ``ummah`` agenda than any ``Dalit`` cause.. :-))

I have close ``Dalit`` friends, and relatives and they are all fine and dandy to goto temples / et married according to `hindu`` rituals, send their kids for ``bharathanatyam`` classes..

Few ``upper caste`` bigots in this forum spit out their venom, and these guys jump to the conclusion that ``All liberal Hindus are racist``. and repeat the assertion that ``people say they are not casteist and the next line they abuse Dalits``. First of all Hindus who don`t believe in castes / caste discrimination are not the ones who abuse ``Dalits``. They are just a bunch of ``upper caste`` morons and their numbers are dwindling rapidly..

Now your agenda seems like to pit the ``dalits`` against the ``caste hindus``. I`m fine with that. Any place any group is discriminated, they have to fight. But don`t confuse that with ``ummah`s`` agenda. Still no one either ``googlymoogly`` or ``Dalit`` has responded to my question as to why the ``Dalit`` leader Mayavati, who was against ``Manuvadi`` system is actively wooing Brahmins now.. or had campaigned for the ``pet hate`` figure of the ``secularists`` Mr. Modi..

Ajeya

We don`t want to fall into Mr. nonDalit/googlymoogly`s trap.

The reasons for the lower math grades of dalit students (if they are lower) have to be environmental, including the absence of long-standing family/community academic traditions, and absence of adequate role models. Let`s remember, we forced that situation on our dalit sisters and brothers.

The point is that dalit problem is OUR problem, not Mr. nonDalit/googlymoogly`s, who have/has absolutely nothing to do with real dalits.

Re:#34

Actions speak louder than words.

Just a handful of middle- and upper-income Dalits (or even low-income dalits - like many academically brilliant low-income upper-caste hindu students) are perfectly free to prove all this wrong with excellent math grades.

Why don`t they?

Maybe blaming the upper-caste hindus forever (with college entrance reservations between 75-80% in many places, and many SC/STs in many high and well-paid positions in government) is infinitely more convenient?

Instead of talking a lot, produce some brain surgeons who graduate by competing fairly (high marks on the exams) and some top-notch mathematicians/scientists.

I like the way ``liberal`` Hindus deflect the casteism accusations WHILE STILL BEING CASTEIST. Of course they are ALL against casteism (snicker snicker), BUT

1. Every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs. Imagine saying the same thing about African Americans in the US. You`d immediately be identified as far-right KKK, a RACIST. But Indians routinely say such things about and TO Dalits and BCs - not just on forums but teachers say it to students in classrooms, including in the IITs. That`s right - it is still OK AND ACCEPTABLE to harrass and demean people like this among Indians. The average caste-Hindu is MORE RACIST than the average American redneck, who would at least think 5 times before saying these things to others. This racism IS NOT ACCEPTABLE in the US, but it IS acceptable among the most ``educated`` caste Hindus. India is an apartheid state and this is approved of by the average caste Hindu.

2. Every post contains dehumanizing and racist caste slurs about excrement, the occupations RACIST CASTE HINDUS FORCED DALITS INTO. Yes, that`s how much hatred caste Hindus carry in their hearts - a hatred that makes them want to torture people with excrement. That`s the contents of the caste Hindu head - FANTASIES OF TORTURE. This is what their religion teaches them. Hatred. Deal with anger by torturing people in the most medieval and hateful ways - excrement, rape, violence. This is how much rage and hatred these racist sickos carry. AND IN THE NEXT SENTENCE THEY CLAIM TO BE AGAINST CASTEISM!!! That`s the ``liberal`` caste Hindu. I`m liberal, and against caste, but I will hurl threats of torture and racist caste-slurs at any Dalit or BC who disagrees with me.

This is how racist caste Hindus have maintained an apartheid state for centuries. By dehumanizing and terrorising people at every turn, reducing them to chattel, treating them like animals. The racist caste-slurs are not ``just words`` mind you. They are a tool of hatred and control. Imagine a Dalit child going to a school and being threatened with such hateful language, such threats, such slurs JUST FOR ASSERTING HERSELF AND SPEAKING HER MIND.

This is how these caste-Hindu sickos maintain their bloodstained, gory privileges. They are daily terrorists.

3. The repeated LIE that ``only uneducated people`` and ``villagers`` and ``BCs`` oppress Dalits. LIES. Look at the behaviour of educated people on this forum - hell ANY forum. The most ``liberal`` caste Hindu will turn into an abusive racist goon with a filthy mouth the minute a Dalit speaks her/his mind. Dalit only has to mention the racism routinely faced by Dalits at all levels of society, its sanction in the shastras, the daily experience and practice of racist hatred in Indian society. That`s ALL it takes for caste-Hindus to turn into raving, violent, hateful, foul-mouthed, enraged bullies.

First they will take away your voice by calling it FAKE. Isn`t that the classic abuser`s ploy? You keep hitting someone and when they cry out in pain, you accuse them of pretending. Yup, that`s a sure sign of a SADIST mindset and SADISM is only ONE among the many caste-Hindu pathologies. Caste-Hindus are mentally diseased people because of the horrific oppression and hatred that their egos are sustained by. So - first thing they will do is say `YOU ARE NOT A DALIT`. At the same time using racist caste slurs!! But that`s exactly how Dalits are oppressed! Racist caste Hindus may even call you a ``MULLAH``. Yup, you could be a Buddhist, or a Christian, or an atheist, but caste-Hindus will call you a MUSLIM, because to their teeny-weeny racist minds, that is a way of dehumanizing you and rendering your VOICE invalid.

This is how the sadistic caste-Hindu mind functions to bully Dalits who speak their mind.

4. The other thing they do is BASH AND DERIDE EVERY DALIT INTELLECTUAL EVER. This is another racist and hateful caste-Hindu ploy. A way of dehumanizing and belittling people. This is the same hatred that denied Dalits the RIGHT TO READ AND LEARN for centuries. Now it resurfaces by calling people `ILLITERATE`` AND ``WRONG``, dismissing their knowledge and education.

5. Racist caste-Hindus cannot stand Dalit autonomy on matters of religion and knowledge. It strikes at the heart of their deep-rooted racist hatred. Watch how they howl with rage when a Dalit discusses religious scriptures. Watch how they howl with rage when a Dalit CONVERTS. Watch how the most ``liberal`` and ``enlightened`` caste-Hindu will be enraged and shaken by an educated dalit who DISAGREES or CONTRADICTS him. At these points you get to see the full range of caste-Hindu pathologies at work.

THE IDEA THAT ``LIBERAL`` AND ``EDUCATED`` CASTE-HINDUS ARE NOT RACIST HAS TO BE EXPOSED. They sustain racism and casteism intellectually, behaviourally, attitudinally.

Hey Gatadya,

What is this gaandugiri? What nadir you have reached from an idealist
to a political junky who visits raands. A long journey from Gobar Gas based green electric generators to this professional gaandugiri!

Creat fuucking jobs which feeds millions and not destroy jobs. I knew 30 years back
we engineers are supposed to be the builders of India, and not perpetually angry and wallowing about the destitution we ourselves faced or saw around. Didnt we say this mother of ours even though kaali, nakti is ``mazi Ai``. This building could happen if we join the hearts across the superficial divisions. How does it matter if the blakets to earthquake victims come from an NRI Joshi, Deshpande Kamble, Patill or Mohite But it gave a lot of anguish when saw those blankets were being sold in Mumbai bhendibazar. We need to work in creating the good man from whatever we have got, ... be it one with transparent eyes, black eyes, sharp nosed or nakta naks, fair or dark skined. For that we need to broaden the mind and have to remove hate ... and wish let the entreprenneurs thrive as well as the workers. ...Kalyan Howo Sarwanche Koni Dukhi Asunaye. This is good enough than big fat book of 19th century (Das Capita).

Gobar gas plants can help the energy crises. If you need financing please do not hesitate to ask. There are many enterprising Swades mohans with lot of $s to help you. But for godsake stop Raandibazi.

Re: # 30

what you have written has happpened for centuries and still is happening now in some parts of the country. Rather than describing the datails we have to erase this blot from the society. Things have become better for the Dalits with representation and awareness but hindu society is still ridden with this problem. This chap ``Dalit`` is just provoking us/you. He has no constructive ways to solve the problem. He is just a hindu hater who is using Dalit problems to laugh and make fun of the entire society. It seems you get carried away by his half-baked stories. The best way to deal with not to give him the weapon to fight with. We have to realise we cannot let a significant part of the society to live an inhumane condition. We have to break this wall which has segregated the hindu society for long and to treat everyone equal. Just remember, united we stand and discrimination/contempt won`t unite us.

The link to the article which subhas is referring. I do not understand why the author would not post the link of the article so that the reader could themself read the publication by RAND corporation.
www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/2005/RAND_CF211.pdf
Also, I am posting the part of this article that refers to RSS/BJP as NRM (New Religious Movements).

---

SCANNING FOR OTHER NRMS
Are there potential NRMs, even violent ones, apart from those
spawned by Islamic radicalism? The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) in
India, an ultra-Hindu nationalist movement, is one such organization. It
has all the characteristics of a NRM. It espouses a strong and militant
religious philosophy based on exclusivity and hate. After the
assassination of Gandhi in 1948, the movement was banned for a few years
by the Indian government because of its acts of violence and terrorism
and its exhortation to followers to resort to terrorist methods in the
promulgation of its religious ideas. In the 1990s, under the government
led by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), its role and influence in India
grew and continues to grow even today. During the BJP’s tenure in
political office, the party was divided over associations with the RSS,
with former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee regarded as a soft-liner
on Hindu nationalist issues and the party’s president and deputy Prime
Minister, L. K. Advani, as the hardliner. But the RSS continued to gain
momentum and was engaged in violence, particularly against what it
viewed to be threats against the Hindu state, namely Muslims and
Christians. Their religious view, with its cosmic dimension, remains a
threat to the idea of India as a secular state.

---

I do understand the reasons behind Dalit`s hatred for India , and especially the upper caste hindus. Its only natural. Mr.Dalit aka `hehehehe` is the child of a shoodra couple who work as night soil carriers. Night soil is nothing but human excreta. In many Indian villages , a proper drainage system is not available. So what happens is , Dalit and his mommy and daddy do the important work of tranferring the upper caste hinooo excreta from the toilet to a dump 10 miles away , carrying the upper caste shit in a bucket on their head. Often while carrying the upper caste excreta , young Dalit slipped and fell , drenching himself in upper caste shit. This is the story of Dalit`s life. Now that Dalit has learnt to use the computer and find himself a job in the US as a janitor cleaning the White Man`s Shit and Piss , he finds time to spew his hatred for the upper caste hindooos , whose shit are still carried by Dalit`s mommy and daddy.......

Shame on Subhash Ghatade who supports murder in the name of socialist revolution!!!

The RSS is a narrow minded bunch of old fools but Subhash Ghatade`s friends are violent criminals and murderers.

Shame ! Shame Shame ! Left-wing intellectuals justify use of violence against innocent working people everywhere in India. Then they give us all lectures on human rights. What a bunch of losers and hypocrites !

(1) Hard working tribal IPS officer murdered by Subhash Ghatade`s friends:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/07ips.htm

He is survived by wife Lakshmi Devi, who is a civil assistant surgeon in Bihar, and four-year-old daughter K Sushmita.

Chief Minister Dr Y S Rajasekhar Reddy paid his respects to the slain officer at the residence of Babu`s father, K C Naik, at the Bharat Heavy Electrical Limited Colony at Ramachandrapuram, on the city outskirts, where the body was kept before cremation.

Surendra Babu, *who hailed from the tribal hamlet of Narsimpalli in Bukkapatnam mandal* in Anantapur district, joined the IPS in 1997 after completing engineering in 1992.


(2) Subhash Ghatade`s friends say that rape victims should marry the rapist!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1156139.cms

Earlier this month, Imrana, a Muslim woman, was allegedly raped by her father-in-law.

After the incident, the local community leaders, as well as religious leaders, said she should separate from her husband and move in with her father-in law.


Despite hue and cry being made by several women’s organisations, chief minister Mulayam Singh Yadav on Wednesday supported the edict in the Imrana case, saying the decision taken by the Muslim religious leaders must have been well-thought.

``The decision of the Muslim religious leaders in the Imrana case must have been taken after a lot of thought,`` Yadav told reporters here on Wednesday. He said that the religious leaders were all very learned and they understood the Muslim community and its sentiments, he said adding till he had the full details of the case, he would not like to comment on it.

(3) Subhash Ghatade led gang of violent goons in Gurgaon and mercilessly beat police officers!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1200850.cms

According to senior police officers, a mob of about 3,000, several of which were members of Left parties, were armed with hockey sticks and iron rods.

Even when they were warned to not block the national highway, they marched towards it. Sources said they even molested women on the way.

The video shows how the mob, when stopped by the police at Civil Lines, surrounded Dahiya and beat him black and blue, overturned the sub-divisional magistrate`s car and burnt the DSP`s car. About 10 constables were also injured critically. Bouts of violence by some people were witnessed even at Kalyani Hospital, where the injured police officials were recuperating.

Re: # 16

``The AK-47 was a clear sell out of OBL and he got exposed be because he was arrogant about his miltary-fascistic agenda....................``

If you look at the way things were for the past decade, OBL played it safe.
The african bombings, yemen ship blast, even WTC he didn`t own any of them. Bush attacked without any proof but it was quite obvious. THe proof (the tape) that was recovered came up later.

OBL does need to show military drillings/boot camp or le