Secular Army

#34

Simran, from what I have read the worst cases of criminality in the Indian armed forces are comitted by the home ministry controlled para-millitary forces: CRPF, BSF, Assam Rifles etc. That is where the focus for reform should be.

Painting all Indian Armed Forces in the same colors doesnt serve the cause of reforming them.

Ranger are you sure you have a mother or a sister?, I pity them with your incestous tendencies.

damned typo... >>

Simran ... my family has no reason to fear the Indian Army. But obviously being the budding seccessionist you are , you have your concerns about the Army. Perhaps you should stand outside a military canteen , naked , just like those Manipuri women , carrying banners like - ``Hey Indian Army Studs. My name is Simran.Please Rape Me..``......

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Anyway Simi (may I call you simi ? :) ) ......people who live in India and yet despise the country deserve no rights , no honor , no dignity - nothing. Thats not just my opinion , but this is how majority of India thinks. Else , think about it - you say the Indian Army has commited so many outrages (killed/raped/tortured) against separatists or their supporters in north-east and Kashmir . Still not a murmer or protest from the Indian people - apart from a few JNU type incorrigible leftist idiots like yourself , of course.

But basically , my point is , mine is the majority view point and yours that of the tiny insignificant minority.

That was in bad taste. I can`t believe you`re actually making fun of aggrieved women taking desperate measures to counter male aggression. The protest was not about freedom or autonomy but about inadmissable liberties taken by certain people in the Indian Army. But I guess some people just lack empathy and to them a country is just about how many kilometers of land it covers and not about the dignity of the people who live on it. I have nothing more to say to you, so don`t expect me to reply to your insensitive posts.

Simran ... my family has no reason to fear the Indian Army. But obviously being the budding seccessionist you are , you have your concerns about the Army. Perhaps who should stand outside a military canteen , naked , just like those Manipuri women , carrying banners like - ``Hey Indian Army Studs. My name is Simran.Please Rape Me..``......

fuzair, ``Hitler got tired of him_``

You could be right. I remember reading William Shirer, rise and fall of third reich, where hilter appears not to think much of subhash and his men as fighters. something he said on the lines of `these people do not even bother to pick the lice of their bodies_`

fuzair:

``If the BBC did this, their standards are so low as to be at par with Radio Pakistan.``

If it wasn`t BBC, their website must have been hijacked.

``Incorrect again. The Indians on trial were INA leaders, not members of the German Indian Legion.``

You are right and the reporter is wrong. It is obvious that you have studied this topic more than most. The reporter is obviously no historian but it does not mean that what he found in the newly declasssified documents is also untrue.

DM:

This report is tripe. If the BBC did this, their standards are so low as to be at par with Radio Pakistan.

``So, in February 1943, Bose turned his back on his legionnaires and slipped secretly away aboard a submarine bound for Japan.``

BS. Hitler got tired of him and packed him off to Japan on board a German U-boat. How do you think an Indian would sneak on board a German submarine? Stowaway? Disguise himself as a blond Aryan? The Uboat rendezvoused with a Japanese submarine off Madagascar and transferred Bose and three companions to it. Bose`s odyssey, as was his escape out of India in the first place, is fascinating reading. So Bose deserted his men since Germany was unsuitable for his ambitions.

``A year later the Indian legionnaires were sent back to India, where all were released after short jail sentences.

But when the British put three of their senior officers on trial near Delhi there were mutinies in the army and protests on the streets.``

Incorrect again. The Indians on trial were INA leaders, not members of the German Indian Legion.

Check out this article on the fate of the Italian and German Indian troops:
http://www.tuhl.freeserve.co.uk/tuhl_azad_hind.htm

On the Italian experience:
``However, despite their investment in the Indian`s training the Italians considered the Indian troops of Battaglione Azad Hindoustan to be of doubtful loyalty and this view was confirmed when the Indians mutinied on learning of the Axis defeat at El Alamein in November 1942. Following this the battalion was disbanded and the Indians returned to their prisoner-of-war camps.[8]``

IIRC, many Indian troops under Italian and German command would, like the INA, desert back to the British the first chance they got.

On the German effort: They choose 6,000 out of the ``tens of thousands of Indian soldiers captured by Rommel in North Africa`` (BBC report) and managed to get a whopping 300 volunteers. Out of 27 officers, after subjecting them to intense propaganda and pressure, they got 8 volunteers. Since the cover story was that they were to be used as a Labor (Pioneer) Battalion, I suspect that many men volunteered for this to get better food. Since this low receptivity to Bose was clearly unacceptable, the Germans and Bose used pressure to procure more ``volunteers:`` finally numbering about 2,000, ``some of whose participation was far from voluntary.``

The BBC report itself makes clear the low calibre of the Indians in the unit: rapists and thieves, not exactly freedom fighters. They were so despised that the French would shoot them out of hand, just as they dealt with German killers.

So, if out of tens of thousands of POWs, you manage to get 300 volunteers (after intense pressure, maybe a thousand more) that proves that Bose was a great Netaji? Only in his own mind. He was a Quisling who would have gladly handed India over to the tender mercies of the Japanese if it meant he could live in the Viceroy`s Palace.

Veeresh, “nobody’s perfect” is not the answer to rapes and human rights violations. The usual, “what to do, these things happen” kind of attitude doesn`t help. Prosecute the responsible. Talk about these things so that their recurrence might be minimized and a healing process initiated. Don’t just gloss it all over and praise the army to the skies. Have the magnanimity to admit to its shortcomings. The question is not about going back into the past (even though the Manipuri incident was just last year), but about human dignity. The Army needs to talk about these things as it is an army of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Netizen, I agree with you that it is a step in the right direction.

Ranger, thanks for being the mouthpiece of “most Indians”; must be quite an easy job because according to you, they all think alike. “Most Indians have no respect for the rights of secessionists…” Niiice. So secessionists should be raped and killed and taught a lesson. Wait until your relative or friend is raped by the people who were supposed to protect her. Perhaps then you might feel more strongly about all this.

Ranger, thanks also for noting down my views. Big Brother is watching huh? I’m terrified. Too bad you don’t know where I live, or else you could have sent the Indian Army over to kill me.

Simran ... most Indians have no respect for the rights of seccessionists , whoever they are or wherever they may be. We dont really mind too much if the Indian Army is killing those who despise our country. However your love and affection for anti-India types is noted and well appreciated. Thank you very much.

fuzair#29:

``As far as excluding `non-Muslims` from the Pakistan Army goes, that is incorrect. Many Christian officers opted for Pakistan and were welcomed.``

From what I have read, only Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs were part of this division of assets. Christians and others did not figure in this ``bandar-baant``.

fuzair#28:

Thanks to Dr. Google, I have been able to locate the BBC report, so you do not have to take my word for it (I post the url and excerpts at the end of the post). The Mountbatten comment, however, is based on a tv memoirs produced and directed by Mountbatten, starring himself. This was in early 70s. In it he mentions Nehru`s visit to Singapore during the War (they may have met there for the first time) and Mountbatten unsuccessfully tried to use Nehru against Indians supporting the INA or the Azad Hind Fauj as it was called. BTW, while Indians treat INA soldiers as freedom fighters, they do not consider loyal soldiers to be traitors either. In fact, there was a fictionalised story in a film, Samadhi, made in 1950 about two brothers fighting on the opposite side of the war (Indians have always fallen for maudlin sentimentality!).

Url: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm

Some excerpts:

Hitler`s secret Indian army

By Mike Thomson
BBC News

....................................................................................................................................
In the closing stages of World War II, as Allied and French resistance forces were driving Hitler`s now demoralised forces from France, three senior German officers defected.

Legionnaires were recruited from German POW camps
The information they gave British intelligence was considered so sensitive that in 1945 it was locked away, not due to be released until the year 2021.

Now, 17 years early, the BBC`s Document programme has been given special access to this secret file.

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It reveals how thousands of Indian soldiers who had joined Britain in the fight against fascism swapped their oaths to the British king for others to Adolf Hitler - an astonishing tale of loyalty, despair and betrayal that threatened to rock British rule in India, known as the Raj.

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Bose, who had been arrested 11 times by the British in India, had fled the Raj with one mission in mind. That was to seek Hitler`s help in pushing the British out of India.

By the end of 1941, Hitler`s regime officially recognised his provisional ``Free India Government`` in exile, and even agreed to help Chandra Bose raise an army to fight for his cause. It was to be called ``The Free India Legion``.

I managed to track down one of Bose`s former recruits, Lieutenant Barwant Singh, who can still remember the Indian revolutionary arriving at his prisoner of war camp.

``He was introduced to us as a leader from our country who wanted to talk to us,`` he said.

``He wanted 500 volunteers who would be trained in Germany and then parachuted into India. Everyone raised their hands. Thousands of us volunteered.``

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In all 3,000 Indian prisoners of war signed up for the Free India Legion.

But instead of being delighted, Bose was worried. A left-wing admirer of Russia, he was devastated when Hitler`s tanks rolled across the Soviet border.

Matters were made even worse by the fact that after Stalingrad it became clear that the now-retreating German army would be in no position to offer Bose help in driving the British from faraway India.

When the Indian revolutionary met Hitler in May 1942 his suspicions were confirmed, and he came to believe that the Nazi leader was more interested in using his men to win propaganda victories than military ones.

So, in February 1943, Bose turned his back on his legionnaires and slipped secretly away aboard a submarine bound for Japan.

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A year later the Indian legionnaires were sent back to India, where all were released after short jail sentences.

But when the British put three of their senior officers on trial near Delhi there were mutinies in the army and protests on the streets.

With the British now aware that the Indian army could no longer be relied upon by the Raj to do its bidding, independence followed soon after.

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At the end of the war the BBC was forbidden from broadcasting their story and this remarkable saga was locked away in the archives, until now.

pucca sahibs still exist loong after the real sahib has left .

``......are the followers doing a fair job........``

Of course NOT!........if they were, they wouldn`t be in such miserable condition.

Dost-mittar #26 and Veeresh

Re: The INA

Not really personal factors, my cousin`s one grandfather was a Japanese POW and lived to tell the tale (no mean feat in and of itself) and another was killed in the Fall of HK but they were not my relations. If my tone seemed a bit excessive, its because I`ve had this argument several times with Indians (mainly Bengalis) who are unabashed Bose apologists/followers. Bose was either a fool (not likely, given that he topped the ICS exam, IIRC) or a power-hungry Quisling if he was willing to cooperate with the Japanese in attacking India. What did he think that a Japanese-occupied India would look like? My guess is he was willing to act the Pu Yi role in Manchuria as long as he got to be the head Indian. So to call Bose a `freedom fighter` or a patriot is to insult the ones who actually fought to free India, not to hand it over to someone else.

I am not aware of the documentary/documents you mention. I am surprised that Phillip Mason, who as Secretary of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (India) during WWII would have known of any such document, does not mention it in his history of the Indian Army. I respect his intellectual honesty enough to have no doubt that he would have at least alluded to it indirectly.

As far as excluding `non-Muslims` from the Pakistan Army goes, that is incorrect. Many Christian officers opted for Pakistan and were welcomed. During the 1950s and 1960s, there was a fair proportion of Christians in both the PA and PAF. There were some Hindu officers who opted for Pakistan but were asked to reconsider their decision. IIRC, the pressure on them to change their minds was as much from India as it was from Pakistan. In spite of this, there was one Hindu Colonel, Bakshi (?not sure if I recall the name, am working from memory here) who insisted on staying on in Pakistan.

Ooops have to run; more later.

Dm/26 - more like ``I`m explaining my India``.

Free travel for citizens as well as visitors, without restrictions, is not as simple as that within a large number of countries. Leave aside the developed countries, and see what you have? Central Asia, the Arab countries, African countries with maybe a couple of exceptions, Iraq, Burma, China, North Korea, many of the old Soviet Bloc countries . . . dare say I, even large parts of Pakistan?

The specific decision to exclude non-Muslims from the Pakistani Armed Forces on the 14th of August 1947 was taken with Jinnah`s complete participation, documented by the Baluch Regiment brought in from Cawnpore for the specific purpose, and carried out by the British Brigadier in command on that date. Wolpert and Jinnah`s speech of 11th August not-withstanding.

On the INA and the British Army, other than Prof. Fay`s book which I have quoted from, please read up on Dr Mazumdar and the archives at the British War Museum.

simran/23 - nobody`s perfect. yes, I`ve spoken with enough Kashmiris, Nagas and Sikhs, as well as Muslims. Many of them part of my extended family. How far back in history do we want to keep going, or do we look forward too?

hamzaad/21 - to use your metaphors, Jinnah kept the flagpole and sent the flag on it to the barracks of the 10th Baluch. After making it clear that non-Muslims were not welcome in the Pakistani Armed Forces. My late father carried the Pakistani flag and deposited it with the RSM, and then said goodbye to his buddies, and moved on to India. Why should there be acrimony about this?

Kaura/various - I read your tirades on Sikhism, I respect the ideology of the Gurus, but ask yourself - are the followers doing a fair job? When you talk about the composition of Sikh LI and Sikh regiment and BEG, even mahar Regiment has a fair number of Sikhs, you surely also know about the play-off between the ``Caste`` and Mazhabis?