ISNA Thugs

Re: # 275

What... that`s it? lol

Is this the best you can do? And that too copied from Ahemdi websites?

Bubba you`ll have to work very hard on spinning things out of context. Otherwise, you`re wasting everyone`s time and more of your rapidly depleting brain cells. While you`re at it, take some elementary courses in English composition too. It may help to conceal your spinning better...one shouldn`t lose hope even if he`s hopeless. ;-)~~

ntsyed,

You are rambling incoherently. Does it hurt that much?

While you insist that apostates may be allowed to live in peace, your uncle Maudoodi thought differently. Here we go ...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains: “This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that you cannot escape.”

He further states:

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.


MORE ON APOSTASY

“In our domain we neither allow any Muslim to change his religion nor allow any other religion to propagate its faith”

And

“The execution of apostates has already decided the issue. Since we do not allow any Muslim to embrace any other religion, the question of allowing other religions to open their missions and propagate their faiths within our boundaries does not rise.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1981, 8th edition, page 32.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You need to get your story straight ...

Re: # 82
One of my teachers gave this wisdom to men:
Never engage in an argument with a woman, because you can never win.
: o )
Women are superior to men in almost every way. One way is their communication and relationship skills. I`m sure you`d agree that the quality of ``leadership`` may become better better as there are more women who get into those roles. My only one concern is that though feminism may have done a lot of good, it also kind of told women to ``become like men``. Feminists told men to become feminine, and told women to become masculine. So what might happen is if a woman copies a man, she will become a person who`s worse than that man.
: o )
But this is no personal attack, I remember what my teacher said.
: o )
It`s hard to explain in a short paragraph, but if you read these three books of my teachers, they`ll say it much better than I could:
``Iron John`` and ``Sibling Society`` by Robert Bly. ``What Really Works With Men`` by A. Justin Sterling.
Sorry, I hope I didn`t offend you in any way. Men and women need to work together in partnership. Each has their special role, like ying and yang
: o )

Re: # 87
of course the music of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, there is a treasure of roots, the best poetry, history, wisdom, healing, etc.

Re: # 87
I`d love to recommend the following scholars, Hamza Yusuf, Cornel West, Arundhati Roy, Edward Said, Robert Bly

Re: # 82
Dear Sis,
I`d love to talk to you about feminism. But can we do that some other calmer times?
: o )

Re: # 80
A couple of years ago, I asked a Nation of Islam man, ``I heard you guys were merging with the MAINSTREAM of Islam``. He said, ``Yea brother, but when are the sufi`s going to merge with the mainstream of Islam, when are the shia and the sunni going to merge with MAINSTREAM Islam``?...
The brother made a deep point.

Re: # 78
Well, it seems like twisting and bending, in order to rationalize and justify your support for Rush and Seinfeld. Such comments, even in jest, have a ``tone`` of racism, and can`t just be explained by ``ha ha I was just being funny, honey``.
Rush is a hypocrite, why would anyone defend that drug addicted racist lard who for years has preached how bad drugs are

Re: # 70

``laton kay bhoot baton say nahin mantey ......... ``
: o )
this is one of my favorite sayings too, and I am forced to say it when people act ``ignoramously``

Re: # 69
: o )
Very well put
lol
Nice summary!

Re: # 60
It`s great the you have such a broad perspective, and have grave concerns about Roberts, etc. Thanks for working for Civil Rights, for all of us

Re: # 55

Payan, I agree with you:

>>Very good reminders!
>>Now tell me, my friend, how do leaders of ISNA demonstrate their love and obedience >>of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)?

Re: # 42
Yea, but can you try to empathize with the frustrations of the people neglected or mistreated by ``leaders`` of ISNA?

Re: # 40
Good points, I agree

Re: # 36
When you go to a mosque, you will see many people from the ``east`` and from ``africa`` who look ``white``. This black and white difference is mostly a result of colonization and slavery of the non-white in the past 500 years. Read the book ``Black Skin White Mask`` by Fanon:
http://www.newsreel.org/films/frantzfa.htm

Re: # 33
I agree with you except the last para.
I understand yar, but there are millions of organizations in America, which don`t have so much mismanagement. For example, a simple thing as, why don`t they ever reply to letters? This is a big deal. Why don`t they have a form on their website like most service organizations do. I mean they should know the basic courses of ``Customer Service``, yar! This is horrendous, the way they just ignore me, as if I don`t exist for them. And then suddenly I`m alive for them when they need my money???

Re: # 31
``pet birds``
Chauhan Saheb, that was VERY funny
: o )

Re: # 27
Recycler bin instead
: o )
Very funny.
Saudi Propaganda, now THAT`S a huge issue which should be discussed further

Re: # 26
Very well said sire
: o )

Well, check this out. Being a bad ``mullah`` can cost you a lot of moolah, like $800,000
this is a masjid about 25 miles from me, the largest in southern California:

Fired Principal Awarded $788,000
A jury agrees there was sex discrimination in the woman`s dismissal from a Garden Grove Islamic elementary school. A cultural clash is blamed.

A Superior Court jury has ordered the Islamic Society of Orange County and two of its officials to pay the former principal of its elementary school nearly $800,000, agreeing that they discriminated against her when she was fired two years ago.

Zakiyyah Muhammad, an African American woman who converted to Islam, was fired after serving five years as principal of the Orange Crescent School in Garden Grove.

Although the jury did not have to specify what type of discrimination was involved, Ed Connor, Muhammad`s attorney, said Monday the main thrust of the case was gender bias because his client had challenged her male superiors. The jury said it found no evidence to support the separate accusation of racial bias.

``Our case was she did not fit stereotypical notions held by Muslim men of how Muslim women should act,`` he said.

Muhammad said her case showed the cultural schism that can exist between U.S.-born Islamic women who believe they are equal to men and Islamic immigrants from Asian and Middle Eastern countries, where many women are subservient.

Muhammad and Connor said they were challenging not Islam but cultural practices. Both said the religion ensures equality between the sexes.

``The revelation of the Koran is not antithetical to the Constitution of the United States,`` Muhammad said.

Barbara Fitzgerald, attorney for the defendants, said, ``The verdict is erroneous and will be corrected on appeal.`` She wouldn`t comment further.

The Superior Court jury of eight women and four men deliberated two days before reaching a verdict Friday afternoon. The jury ordered the Islamic Society, which runs the school; Dr. Fazal Mirza, president of its school board; and board treasurer Refat Abodia to pay Muhammad $788,000, which includes punitive damages of $130,000.

Shortly before bringing in their verdict, jurors sent the judge a note saying they wanted to let both sides ``know and understand that we do not consider Islam to be on trial…. We have been empowered to deliver a verdict but we are powerless to deliver peace and understanding. You must seek this elsewhere.``

In addition to discrimination, jurors found the defendants guilty of intentional infliction of emotional distress, fraud, negligence and conspiracy to defraud.

Muhammad, 60, who holds a master`s degree and doctorate from Columbia University in New York, had been involved in Islamic education most of her career. She came from Sacramento in 1998 to run Orange Crescent. The school was accredited the next year.

Muhammad charged in her suit that Mirza, the new school board president in 2003, had secretly planned to replace her with the vice principal, a Pakistani immigrant. The suit also said Mirza had reneged on an agreement giving her a new two-year contract with a raise to $65,000 a year and instead put her on probation.

Muhammad said Mirza verbally attacked her at a school board meeting and that she asked for an apology. When it never came, she asked for a hearing before the Majlis-e-Shura, the society`s governing board. Shortly afterward, on Sept. 16, 2003, she was fired.

``She did the `unthinkable,` `` Connor said. ``She questioned the authority of an elder, and she`s a woman and he`s a man. Those would never be legit reasons anywhere in the U.S. for firing her.``

A report on the firing, by the Council on Islamic Education, a group of Islamic scholars from around the country, said the decision to fire Muhammad was hasty, unethical, unprofessional and a violation of Islamic principles. The council had heard about the firing and decided to investigate, according to Muhammad`s previous attorney.

The council warned that the matter could widen a rift between immigrant and U.S.-born Muslims and ``invariably be seen as proof that immigrant Muslim communities look at African American Muslims as their inferiors.``

Re: # 255

Back to square 0, aren`t you Sattar? Or is it your IQ that`s at 0? ROTFL

Too bad, so sad! Your only hope is to have GWB use you like a condom... sorry I meant Ahmed Chalabi, for your 5 seconds of recognition in the world. Other than that, even GWB & the PMU Feminazis wouldn`t touch you with a 10` pole while you`re in awe of 6` men from your 3` eye-level.

For your convenience, I`ll post an important excerpt from my last post:

``It`s pretty basic stuff you have wasted/are wasting your few remaining brain-cells in your futile attempts to mould Islam to your ends. How could you pull off such a stunt without any IQ whatsoever, if your Mirza and your scholars couldn`t?``

Certainly not with your IQ level.

Try to get some sleep without nightmares. And don`t worry about this religion stuff. It doesn`t appear to be your cup of tea.

cheers
:-)~~

ntsyed,

Killing a apostate for mischief is like killing a 6-foot-tall person for mischief. Being 6-foot tall has nothing to do with, neither is apostasy relevant here by any means. Mischief is the common denominator which should be the focus, and indeed this is how Quran addresses the issue.

Introducing apostasy into the equation is baseless and futile, and merely a way to harass non-Muslims. Do check with your cousin Urstruly … who thinks that apostates should be killed.

Show me one Quranic verse where anyone is authorized to execute a person for apostasy.

Re: # 253

Bingo!

GOTCHA!

ROTFL

mian chhor do murghi/bakri (whatever the proverb contains) ki teesri taang!

1. refer to the 50+ verses i listed, if you dare to...to understand that the Prophet (pbuh) was authorized by none other than Allah to execute the apostates he (pbuh) did under the prevalent circumstances.

Otherwise, failure to recognize your own contradiction is the mother of intellectual deprivation as known to be possessed by apostates without any IQ whatsoever.

2. The apostate who creates mischief must be executed. Mischief refers to dunga-fasaad as well as blasphemous attempts to declare prophethood, as well as the blasphemous attempts to change Shar`ia as exemplified and explained to us by the Prophet (pbuh).

Otherwise,

1. how is one to know when a person becomes an apostate?
2. Even if he declares his apostasy, but refrains from mischief, as described briefly above, he is to be left alone according to the Shari`ah. Another option would be to exile him if he promises and refrains from threathening the security of the Muslim community.

It`s pretty basic stuff you have wasted/are wasting your few remaining brain-cells in your futile attempts to mould Islam to your ends. How could you pull off such a stunt without any IQ whatsoever, if your Mirza and your scholars couldn`t?

RIP

Ciao
:-)~~

ntsyed (#252):

Punishment for apostasy is somewhat of a litmus test which separates Muslims from low-IQ fanatics.

Quran refers to apostasy in several times while never mentioning any worldly punishment for it. Actually Quran discusses possibility of an apostate coming back to Islam!!! Killing a person for apostasy shuts this door on a person.

Killing apostates forces a religion on a person against his will. This is one of many places where your Islam collapses, while claiming to be tolerant and peaceful. Failure to recognize this contradiction is the intellectual deprivation I mentioned earlier. You are its living proof.

Re: # 251

Sattar2,

Your point about internal strife between the scholars is right on, but somehow it would sound so much better coming from a Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki, or Hanbali scholar instead.

Other than that, your rant about apostasy suggests you haven`t improved your diet thus your intellectual crap remains just that. Trust me dude, no matter what you do, this part always gives away your Ahmedi confusion, delusion, or whatever else you wanna call it, regardless of how hard you try to keep your identity concealed.

Cheers
:-)~~

ISNA faces several challenges as it tries to unite Muslims in North America. One of these is to overcome ummah’s sectarian divisions that have bitterly marked Islamic history. The other issue is dealing with fanatic and somewhat barbaric elements that overtime have become intertwined with mainstream Islamic thought and teachings. Together, these elements pose a formidable challenge for ISNA leadership and its constituency.

Inter-sectarian differences

Since ISNA is grounded in theological framework (as “I” in ISNA suggests), it would be tricky business to do away with theological differences among various flavors of Islam. Having differences may be a manageable issue. However, the equation is complicated by inter-sectarian fatwas of kuffr (inevitably followed by counter fatwas of kuffr) which seem to be the main tool of resolving differences among the ullema. History of violence between sects only makes an already bad situation, worse.

ISNA leadership may attempt to ignore it, but this history is bound to surface sooner or later. Already the issue of integrating shias (or accepting Ahmadis, esp. the Brazilian ones) has come up. Is an ISNA leader supposed to overlook fatwas of kuffr issued by ullema of his own sect against others?

Whose Islam does “I” represent

My experience is that a Muslim is likely to claim to be a Muslim only. However, actually what he is telling you is that … “you really should accept Hanafi Islam as the true Islam” … if he happens to be a Hanafi. This is usually followed by a discussion on Quran, references to ahadith, with follow-up links to idiotic web-sites run by ullema with despicable abilities to think and to reason.

Replace Hanafi here with whatever … ons gets the point.

Claims of “Islam = Peace”

Sooner or later ISNA will need to explain some thorny issues which are but a few skeletons in Islam’s closet. It is one thing to blindly, without thought, equate Islam with peace. How does this jive with executing apostates … remains unanswered. As is often said, devil is in the details. Islamic punishment of death for adultery and blasphemy are examples that do not fit with ill-thought out claims of Islam being the religion of peace.

The good …

ISNA has a few things going for it. In the post-9/11 era, some Muslims may feel the need to set aside their sectarian differences and to coalesce in efforts to put a human, dignified face on Islam. A common enemy is a strong unifying force. Now that Islamic teachings are under the media microscope, some well-thought out responses are called for. This perhaps is where lies the highest utility of ISNA.

… the bad …

But these responses will need to be politically correct, which will inevitably pose a dilemma for ISNA leadership. How are ullema supposed to explain hadith where Prophet (pbuh) had people killed for apostasy? ISNA’s best hope is that media scrutiny does not go deep enough. Placing Fox interviews right before the super bowl would be a good strategy, for starters.

… and the ugly

ISNA has a lot of baggage to sort through. Deriving bulk of its support from the mosque-frequenting types who by far seem to be somewhat intellectually deprived, adds to ISNA’s difficulties. To be fair I should mention that this intellectual deprivation is not unique to the ummah … it is ever present among the church-going christian crowd, orthodox jews, horrible hindus, and more.

What makes ummah’s case somewhat unique is their obsession with Islam’s glorious past, support for khilafat in Quran, and ummah’s zeal to implement shariah in foreign lands.

Although ISNA may do more good than harm in near future, I suspect that sooner or later ummah’s age-old instincts will take over. In one extreme scenario, these may lead ISNA to aim for establishing khilafat. Another scenario is that owing to internal differences it splits or becomes a dysfunctional organization, marred by, guess what, fatwas of kuffr.

I hope ISNA proves me wrong. But I remain skeptical for now.

Escapist sahib, #249 {``Why would a mirzai want to join ISNA convention? Its ``Islamic`` Society of North America.``}

Just to piss off the Wahabbis in power in Indianapolis. :)

I think Mirzais consider themselves ``Islamic`` and many even reside in North America?
I could see if ISNA didn`t want any Brazilian Quadianis.

Salim,

Why would a mirzai want to join ISNA convention? Its ``Islamic`` Society of North America.


Regards

Re: # 245 by Salim_Chauhan

``BTW, do you think that the ``highly-educated`` matron of Chowk would agree that there may not be parity in this department. Shouldn`t the male pages on the Hill make just as much as Ms. Lewinsky did for her services just a few blocks to the west?``

Salim Bhai, I`m sure our highly-educated Mausi (matron) Museebtay would agree to that if, and when, her eyes and brain are popped back in their natural cavities.

:-)~~

#246, {``I personally met Shia friends who were attending the convention. I am still investigating whether or not representatives of Shia communities and organizations have been invited to participate. I do know that membership is open to all Muslims - Sunni and Shia.``}

escapist,
Thanks for a commendable effort to defend ISNA. BTW, does the open invitation to ISNA also extend to Ahmedis? Just curious.
Thanks,

ISNA? Thugs
By Sheila Musaji

In the week after the 42nd annual ISNA convention an article appeared on the Muslimwakeup and Naseebvibes websites entitled “ISNA Thugs” by Umbreen Shah. At first, I dismissed the article, because it was poorly written, and made undocumented and inaccurate claims, Then I read it again and became angry not at the writer, but at those who had published the article as if it was a legitimate piece of journalism. As I thought about it a bit more I began to think that maybe there was a possibility of a positive outcome if the questions raised in the article were addressed and considered.

Over the past 30 years I have been openly critical of some of the policies of ISNA and other national and local Muslim organizations, so I cannot be accused of being blind to the very real problems that need to be addressed.

That being said, I have seen over the years a very steady progress towards addressing and solving many problems. At this convention I saw major changes from 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. I personally know many of the brothers and sisters who have been involved with ISNA (some from the beginning) and based on my personal experience, they have been open to suggestions, gave genuine consideration to constructive criticism, and are well-intentioned. ISNA grew out of the earlier MSA and was one of the first organizations attempting to create an association that would give Muslims in America a voice. The ISNA convention is the largest gathering of Muslims in the U.S.

Although ISNA certainly has room for improvement, just from a practical standpoint, the Muslim community in the U.S. is an embattled community that needs a strong voice to speak for it in the public arena. As a community we have poured resources into ISNA over many years, and ISNA is generally accepted even by non-Muslim agencies and organizations as the primary voice of Islam in America. I believe that what is needed is to strengthen and widen ISNA`s scope. This can be done by many more individuals and organizations joining ISNA - as all members are able to vote. This can be done by encouraging ISNA to initiate dialogues with Sufi organizations, Shiah organizations, progressive Muslim organizations, African-American organizations, and finding ways that they can all work together. This can be done by encouraging ISNA to be more transparent, and to include representatives of other communities on its board. There is a lot to be done, but such positive developments can only come about by working with and not against the existing organization.

Over the years our solution to disagreements has consistently been to start a new organization, and this has not been an effective strategy. Of all the existing organizations ISNA has the best chance of being a true umbrella group representing the wide range of Muslims in the U.S.


1. The article claims that ISNA asserts that it is the “only representative of Muslim Americans from all walks of life”

I searched ISNA print publications and information on the their website for any claim that they were “THE” representative and could not find any. Their Mission Statement states: “ISNA is an association of Muslim organizations and individuals that provides a common platform for presenting Islam, supporting Muslim communities, developing educational, social and outreach programs and fostering good relations with other religious communities, and civic and service organizations.”

2. African Americans are the most underrepresented of all groups at ISNA. ... Given that African-Americans make up the single largest segment of American Muslims, the fact that they don’t have a sizable stake raises a lot of questions about the validity of ISNA as an American Muslim organization.

African Americans may not be represented in large numbers at the ISNA convention because W.D. Muhammad traditionally holds his convention on the same week-end as the ISNA convention. W.D. Muhammad`s organization is currently called The Mosque Cares (formerly the Muslim American Society). I wish that both conventions could be combined, and know that over the years there have been many discussions by the leadership of both organizations about how this could be brought about.

However, although we still have not reached the ``ideal`` situation of having joint conventions, there was definitely interaction.

W.D. Muhammad (who is an alumnus of ISNA`s Board of Trustees) was part of the Press Conference that met before the first session of the conventions. Imam WD Muhammad formally unveiled the special issue of ISNA’s Islamic Horizons magazine dedicated to the contribution of African-Americans to Islam in America.

9-12 The information above was from a pre-convention news release. I spoke with Shaikh M. Nur Abdullah, President of ISNA today and he informed me that although Imam Muhammad was invited to the press conference and had given a positive response, at the last minute he was unable to attend.``

While these conventions are held in separate venues they are unified in spirit and in their desire to foster a feeling of community among all American Muslims. As a result, attendees from one conference can attend the other without having to pay additional fees. A shuttle service was planned to be sponsored by The Council of Islamic Organizations and called ``The Unity Bus``. The Council wanted to sponsor the Unity Bus as part of an effort to help bring together the different Muslim communities that converge in Chicago for the two separate conventions every September. However, this was cancelled at the last minute because approval was not received from W.D. Muhammad`s organization.

At one point I was walking through the ISNA bazaar and heard a Native Deen’s rap cd being played in the bazaar area which attracted my attention. I was able to purchase a CD for one of my son’s and even get it signed by one of the musicians.

My husband and I attended both conventions and were made to feel welcome at both. It would be wonderful if some day these conventions could come together, but there was much more awareness this year than in the past.

The only suggestion I have is that this information should have been available in the printed program for the ISNA convention.

3. Even while the recent Katrina Hurricane blew across the predominantly African-American regions of the US, ISNA’s relief efforts were ad hoc at best

Hurricane Katrina hit the south a few days before the convention. ISNA moved faster than government agencies and before President Bush returned from his vacation ISNA had already promised to raise $10 million through the new organization formed on the spot -The Muslim Hurricane Relief Task Force.

The more than 30,000 Muslims attending this year`s ISNA convention also said a special Islamic prayer, Salat el Gha`eb, or prayer for the absent, for Katrina`s victims following the weekly Friday prayer.

Islamic Relief and many other groups also had Katrina awareness and fundraising efforts at their booths in the ISNA bazaar.

4. discussions on hijab (head covering for women), polygamy and countering Islamophobia were the focus

Looking through the program with the listings of all the presentations, I am hard pressed to even find anything on these topics among the wide range of topics discussed. I can find interfaith dialogue, media and journalism issues, political representation, community development, public policy, community development, spirituality, professional meetings, civil rights, counseling, abuse, etc. I carefully went through the program and could find no session on hijab, only one on Islamophobia, and none on polygamy. They certainly were not the focus by any stretch of the imagination.

5. There is a tendency in ISNA to enforce a particular religiously conservative philosophy without adapting to the people it serves.

This has been a problem over the years, but is a function of those who are actively participating in ISNA. Over the years as more diverse elements began to participate and to make requests, there have been changes. Some small, some large, and this process is ongoing. For example: There were many booths who were playing music, and on 2 occasions there was a live performance. Some years ago this would not have been considered proper. The entertainment sessions offered in the evenings included: nasheeds, poetry, comedy, a film festival, and a live play. There was also an Islamic Art exhibit.

There was an annual general assembly at the convention where ISNA leaders discussed the working of the organization, presented their ideas and received feedback from members.

6. Women presenters at ISNA have been routinely asked to wear hijab during presentation even though they don’t normally wear the headscarf. This has promoted either hypocrisy or contention when presenters have refused to wear it.

I am still trying to research whether or not this is a policy and since as with many other points, no documentation or reference is given will have to start from scratch. However, since the majority of Muslims are in agreement that women should be covered in public, then I find nothing strange about such a request being made of presenters - especially since no restrictions are made or pressure put on women attendees generally.

7. Women on ISNA’s board of directors are limited to a sample space of one

Of 21 Board members listed on the ISNA website - 4 are women which is 19% and one of those is the VP. This is not as many women as would be ideal, but it is a respectable showing. I am hopeful that the percentage of women will improve over time.

8. Why is ISNA opposed to a wholesome family feel in mosques and adamant on making it a patriarchal space where women are only “lent” space?

ISNA was one of the organizations who reviewed and supported the Women-Friendly Mosques brochure which was distributed to mosques across the country this year.

At the ISNA Convention itself there was a token separation of women`s and men`s entrances to the main hall, but after that people could sit wherever they wanted. In the bazaar, cafeteria eating areas, in the presentation rooms there was no separation.

There was even a session entitled ``Towards Sister Friendly Masjids and Islami Centers``.

While individual mosques may be affiliated with ISNA, ISNA is not able to enforce policies on those individual mosques.

9. Its exclusionary religious perspective successfully alienates the entire Shia Muslim sect.

``I want to know what sessions you went to Umbreen Shah - because we walked away with extremely different impressions of the event. You mention that Shia`s are not welcome to the event - I`ve never seen or heard anything that points to this event as being Sunni only. In fact, time and time again, the voices I heard were the ones encouraging unity amongst Muslims - in fact, one speaker even saying that the differences between Sunnis and Shias really didn’t matter anymore in this day and age ... We have our differences fine, but its time to come together with our various different viewpoints and work for the greater good - for which she/he (I can’t remember which) received loud applause...`` Comment by Nuralaain on naseebvibes

I personally met Shia friends who were attending the convention. I am still investigating whether or not representatives of Shia communities and organizations have been invited to participate. I do know that membership is open to all Muslims - Sunni and Shia.

I would hope that individuals who have contacts with the various Shiah communities such as the UMAA who hosted their 3rd annual convention in Washington D.C. in May to consider also holding their conventions in Chicago over the Labor day week-end, so that many different Muslim groups could be in the same location at the same time, and perhaps have at least some shared programs. If ISNA has 40,000 in attendance, W.D. Muhammad has 8,000, the Shiah community another 5,000, some of the Sufi conferences 1,000 each separately - I believe that if they were all in Chicago at the same time all of them would show more attendance and the total number of attendees might reach as high as 75,000.

10. Run mostly by first generation Immigrant Muslims with cultural baggage from their homelands, ISNA management has been unable to relate to their American-born Muslim constituency which is the future of Islam in America.

There were more young people (between about 16 and 25) than I have ever seen in the past, and the MYNA and MSA programs were as numerous as the ISNA programs.

11. More shocking, a mere 10% of all Muslims in America attend the ISNA-affiliated Mosques and institutions. Apparently, ISNA’s biggest success has been in alienating 90% of American Muslims.

Imam Zaid Shakir wrote an excellent article about the many reasons individuals are not connected with their local mosques - Flight From the Masjid ... This is not a problem unique to ISNA, but ISNA is working to address many of these issues.

``Yep, ISNA has loads of problems. They definitely need to be more inclusive of other ethnicities/races/women, they need to be accountable to their domestic constituency not foreign influences, etc. And there is movement toward that--particularly at the very dynamic MSA & MYNA meetings which were far more interesting than the ISNA lectures. However, they`ve also done lots of good. It was my 1st ISNA & I was surprised at how non-judgemental, open, & welcoming everyone was to a non-hijabi South Asian & her white partner. I also thought it was overwhelmingly South Asian, not Arab as described here. In some ways our experiences are controlled by what we expect or want to see, & Ms Shah & I are no exceptions. It`s a continuing contention of MWU`s founders that the 90% ``unmosqued`` are not represented by ISNA or other Islamic organizations. Agreed. But to think ISNA had any hand in ``alienating 90% of American Muslims`` as Ms Shah contends is ridiculous. The vast majority of people who accept the label of any religion or ism are usually not particularly devout or devoted to the cause. Most Muslims in this country are not interested in their religious or cultural identity, and they are just as surely not represented by MWU or the PMUNA. Since the intrepid reporter Ms Shah failed to notice the *massive* banners everywhere stating it was the 42nd (not 45th as she states in her very first sentence) annual conference, it makes one wonder at her attention to detail & MWU`s fact-checking abilities.`` Commented by Ayesha on MWU website.

12. MuslimWakeup.com’s reporter, Mike Knight, was invited by ISNA to attend a press briefing by Karen Hughes. But during the press briefing, ISNA authorities asked security to get him out. They were suspicious about an image at the back of his jacket; then, they once again told him to go back and attend the briefing.

``Mr. Knight ... admitted to the individuals who ultimately gave him media clearance to attend the conference (I was there and heard the whole thing), that he felt ISNA would not grant him press credentials to attend so intentionally did not pre-register (as ALL the CREDIBLE MEDIA had). He was vouched for by MuslimWakeUp reporter Mr. S. Khan and was represented as a photographer for MWU. ISNA, being the all inclusive organization that it is, allowed that ... clearance nonetheless. He was removed from the press conference because Karen Hughes and her entourage were uncomfortable with his appearance, mannerisms, attitude, and general presence. ISNA allowed him in, the government kicked him out.`` Comment by manifestation on naseebvibes

According to an article on MWU`s website ``During the Q&A, a policeman approached Michael and his 2 companions and asked them to come outside. Once outside, a special agent with a State Department i.d. asked them why they were at the press conference and searched them and their bags. After ISNA staffers vouched for them, they were allowed back into the press conference. ``

All of this appears to have been over an Alternative Tentacles jacket Mr. Knight was wearing with an unusual logo that raised alarm on someone`s part. So far, we have been unable to find out whether an ISNA representative, a conference goer, or the police were the first to notice this jacket and decide to question Mr. Knight.

9-13 Just published on the MWU website an article by Michael Knight himself clears up the issue of whether or not he had a press pass. `` I had a pile of counterfeit badges with names like Ben Ishmael and Al Rukn but wasn’t sure if they’d do the job later, so Shahjehan went behind the media booth and added our names to a Post-It list of registered journalists. Then we went upstairs, napped for a few hours on the couches and went back down as things were getting alive. We approached the media booth and told them that we needed badges. The guy running things looked at his little yellow Post-It, saw our names and wrote them up. Now we had all-access media passes.`` and further on in the article answers the question of whether or not he had been invited to the press conference: ``Omar tipped us off to the press conference featuring Karen Hughes, Department of State Undersecretary of Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs and Bush’s representative to the ISNA convention, ostensibly centered around the earth-shattering announcement of a brochure condemning terrorism. ... It was obvious that we didn’t belong in there, and not least of all to those charged with protecting the event. So now we know that Mr. Knight did not have a legitimate press pass and was not invited to the press conference.

13. Malaysian authorities also faced ISNA’s flip flopping in the past, when then-Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad was invited in 2000 to attend the convention, after which ISNA retracted its invitation based on a court case that Mahathir was party to. In response to ISNA’s impropriety and unbecoming behavior, Dr. Mahatir Mohammad responded: “It is their right to invite and then to withdraw the invitation. It clearly showed that ISNA just listens to one side of the story and refuses to get the truth from the other side.``

Mahathir Mohammad’s invitation was withdrawn (after tremendous outside pressure) because he jailed his deputy PM Anwar Ibrahim on what everyone (including Amnesty) felt were trumped-up sodomy charges. The entire global community opposed Mahathir on this. ISNA withdrew the invitation to Mahathir after consideration of the implications of this scandal.

14. Similarly, the publishers of a Sufi magazine, New Track, were allegedly thrown out of the convention area and a message announced to attendants discouraging alternative voices of Islam.

I can find no reference online to any such magazine. Perhaps it is new. Which tariqa does it represent? Who made the allegations? Who made the announcement, where, and what was the actual wording? This comment appears to be simply hearsay with absolutely no documentation.

15. Particularly questionable was the officials’ behavior with a Muslim website’s volunteers. Flyers promoting an event with Muslim artists, comedian Azhar Usman, Nasheed singers 786 and Malaysian singer, Ani Zonneveld were snatched from volunteers and other attendants who had paid tickets to attend ISNA, and tossed out by ISNA representatives who called it “trash” and “unislamic filth.”

There was a comment posted on MWU under this article: The event in question was sponsored by Naseeb, and considering it was not an ISNA sponsored event, ISNA reserves the right to choose what events may or may not be publicized through them. Naseeb should have also obtained permission prior to the convention. calling the event ``unislamic`` and ``trash`` is over the top but how can one be sure that these were ISNA representatives? there were a number of self appointed moral police there who took it upon themselves to call anyone and anything ``unislamic`` and ``trash``. unless there is proof that these were ISNA reps one can`t blame ISNA.

I can find no mention on the Naseebvibes site of this incident or even of the event, so don`t know yet what actually happened or if this incident involved individuals from Naseebvibes. I do have a number of questions: What was the website and who were the “representatives”? Who reported that they heard this exchange?

``I attended ISNA and didn`t hear anything about that whole last bit. As far as I know, 786 was even invited to the MSA entertainment event. I know for a fact that other nasheed groups performed there as well. ISNA is fully aware of all MSA events... in fact, it`s all published in the same agenda magazine...``Comment by Paro113083 on naseebvibes

9-13 I was forwarded information from a flier announcing that the First Annual Naseeb Meetup - a night of music and comedy - was being held at the Crowne Plaza on September 4th at 7:30 p.m. This seems to be the event that Umbreen Shah was referring to in her article.

16. It is worth inferring that ISNA wants to promote only non-ideology based businesses like boutiques and halal meat stores. ISNA is in a position to facilitate the formation of an American Muslim identity. However, without more enlightened leadership it may never live up to its potential.

There were many “ideology based” organizations represented - magazines, publishing houses, etc. one only had to walk through the bazaar or read the list of organizations and groups who had booths to see this.

17. Security was alerted on the volunteers who were treated like criminals and forced off the convention premises. One of the women was so humiliated as a result of ISNA’s security methods that she began weeping as she waited outside for her family. “I have never been stalked like this in my life,” She said. Later ISNA organized its thugs to parade a procession with banners and chants against the website and the event held. They yelled, “Haram! Haram! Haram!”

Since the ``victim`` of this alledged incident is not named, and I was unaware of such an incident, I am still waiting to hear from other convention goers to find out if anyone knows anything about this incident.

18. When faced with the challenge of integrating wider representation of Muslims, it takes only token steps.

On the question of diversity some of the comments that have been left on the Naseebvibes and MWU websites clearly speak to this issue.

``as someone coming from a minority muslim community, I look to organizations such as ISNA to finally break down the exclusive barriers that keep so many muslim communities in isolation. Having attended it twice, I feel that ISNA at least does a good job creating such a space (which I don`t see many other orgs/groups doing).`` Comment by Khazana on Naseebvibes

``...to criticize ISNA for not being completely representative. The points are valid: African-Americans are drastically under-represented, women in leadership are few and far between - but for all your ISNA bashing you don`t (or perhaps can`t) name a single Muslim organization in America that IS more inclusive and representative. As far as Muslim organizations go, ISNA is still fairly inclusive: you meet many different types of people at the convention; is it all-inclusive? no. is it more inclusive than many other organizations? Yes. The fact remains that no Muslim group is ever going to be completely inclusive, unless you happen to be talking about the Muslim group known simply as ``Islam.`` Comment by Hassanmahmad on naseebvibes

There were so many choices of presentations in the program that there really was something for everyone, and of those that I chose to attend there were many female presenters as well as presenters from the younger generation, and even non-Muslim presenters.

This convention seemed to be much more diverse than years ago. I personally met Arab, Indian, Pakistani, Bosnian, Malaysian, African, Chinese, Hispanic, African-American, immigrant, convert, sufi, sunni, shia, and second and third generation Muslims at this convention.

19. All of this calls for a questioning of agendas and motives.

I would have to say that is true. I would question the agenda and motives of those who would publish this emotional diatribe as if it was a serious article without even checking the basic facts.

ISNA seems to me to be the premier Muslim umbrella organization in the U.S. and deserves to be supported by the Muslim community. It can be improved, but that is the job of the community. Those who have ideas for how to make ISNA more inclusive and effective need to get involved, offer constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement, and offer their services.

---

Sheila Musaji is the Editor of The American Muslim at http://www.theamericanmuslim.org. This article was originally published at http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/2005september_comments.php?id=868_0_45_30_C and will be updated as more information is received.

#241 ntsyed {``After all she availed her ``rights`` as a woman to have the honor to polish the First Knob, made a lot of name and money for herself with it``}

NT Bhai,
The First knob! Man, you are so funny. I can`t stop laughing.
BTW, do you think that the ``highly-educated`` matron of Chowk would agree that there may not be parity in this department. Shouldn`t the male pages on the Hill make just as much as Ms. Lewinsky did for her services just a few blocks to the west?

ntsyed #239, {``I live where I belong, Bubba! Amongst my own. Proud to live in small homes with broken windows, but it`s OURS...and I`d die for it too. Unlike Saminasha and her ilk, I didn`t abandon my home and my people only to shout and hurl ideological junk that don`t even make sense to her, from the material comforts of Western hemisphere. I don`t have to get in a line at the immigration and be fingerprinted like criminals at airports just because I`m a non-European.``}

This is funny. :)

For the record I too live amongst my own AND I am already in Europe. :) Whether THEY like it or not we ARE European. :)

Re: # 240

``So you do not live in the states? Good for you and more respect to you...If there is one thing I cannot stand it is Namak Harams.``

Thank you :-)~~

That`s exactly the reason I left: not to be a Namak Haram to Pakistan, and neither to the US. People like Saminasha, hamidm, temporal, ana, rozaiba, et al are simply Namak Harams of Pakistan for bad-mouthing the place (good or bad) that made it possible for them to be who they are today. They think shouting slogans, that Pakistanis can`t relate to, is a service to Pak and somehow they`re helping rebuild our country with failed American experiments.

If they wanna share the credit, they need to come here and get their hands dirty to build it regardless of ideological differences and infrastructural weaknesses. Otherwise, I`ll be damned if I let these snakes crawl back to Pak once the whites, blacks, and hispanics kick their lard asses out of the US. And I`ll be damned if I`ll let them dump the We the People Crap on us then. Bunch of Freakin` unscrupulous opportunists!

Sorry bro, didn`t mean to unload on you.

Cheers :-)~

``And, no, on the whole, women do not make an equal wage for the same labor their male peer does. The exception to that is in three fields. ``

Okay, I did not know about the three fields but I know the reality is that equality does not exist. Specifically though, the law is already clear on that...the headlines about Roberts were on a different issue. The headlines were misleading when they talked about wage parity because Roberts comments were on a different aspect. That is why you can see that the issue ended up dying down relativly quickly.

You say that having an agenda is not a bad thing. Admittedly, true but it has to be accompanied by transparency. Otherwise, how is one to clarify fact versus opinion?



``Compound that by ethnicity, class strata, job market, economy, regional economic climate...call up at least five of your women classmates from grad school and ask them what their experiences have been in terms of pay and see what they say.
``


I know that some are doing better and some not. It all depended on fields they opted to go into..finance and IS being top scorers and HR being the lowest, marketing in the middle.

Re: # 228

Salim Bhai ``Have you noticed how none of the femiNAZIS ever questions Clinton`s actions?``

Questioning Clinton`s philandering would drag in Miss Lewinsky, whom these FemiNazis may consider the Hitler of the Movement. After all she availed her ``rights`` as a woman to have the honor to polish the First Knob, made a lot of name and money for herself with it; stained her dress in the process as a memorabilia for the old age that she might even sell for additional gazillions from some pervert. In fact, she has made a hell of lot of more money than most men for merely demonstrating her oral skills in more ways than one. Demonstrating pride in some of her oral skills would be politically incorrect at this juncture, that`s why they`re gushing with pride only internally.

Unfortunately, and as you pointed out Miss Saminasha`s blatant hypocrisies, alluding to one of these oral skills is okay for a FemiNazi like herself. OTOH, she called me mean names when I simple asked if she has a toothache. Now, is that injustice or what?

HAHAHA

:-)~~

``I don`t have to get in a line at the immigration and be fingerprinted like criminals at airports just because I`m a non-European.
``

So you do not live in the states? Good for you and more respect to you...If there is one thing I cannot stand it is Namak Harams.

Re: # 236

Political or otherwise, Asylums are for the insane like Saminashas of the world.

I live where I belong, Bubba! Amongst my own. Proud to live in small homes with broken windows, but it`s OURS...and I`d die for it too. Unlike Saminasha and her ilk, I didn`t abandon my home and my people only to shout and hurl ideological junk that don`t even make sense to her, from the material comforts of Western hemisphere. I don`t have to get in a line at the immigration and be fingerprinted like criminals at airports just because I`m a non-European.

;-)~~

Re: # 227 by Saminasha

What`s the matter honey...nightmares bothering you already?

You should`ve watched your big-toothless mouth before you shot it off...Marxist...Commie...Stalinist...Feminazi

:-)~~

Stuka,

There is no such thing as a simple ``narration`` of ``facts``....each article read the same situation differently. I dont necessarily think having an agenda is a bad thing-what I do think we need to keep in mind that ``neutral`` does not mean slacking off on the job and really interrogating what a position or policy means.

And, no, on the whole, women do not make an equal wage for the same labor their male peer does. The exception to that is in three fields.

Compound that by ethnicity, class strata, job market, economy, regional economic climate...call up at least five of your women classmates from grad school and ask them what their experiences have been in terms of pay and see what they say.

`` And all of them are gonna have the Skinheads, Aryan Bros, KKK come looking for your Paki behind in a very short time, especially `cause you don`t like `em, and to them you`re either a commie or a MAUSLEM whether you accept it or not.
``

NTSYED: So lemme guess, you already bought the one way ticket on PIA or did you take the shorter route to the Canadian border, hauling your paki ass to get Political Asylum??? HAHAHAHA!!!

``EVERY article written, EVERY text is ideologically driven. I posted that article to make it clear that Robert`s attitudes towards wage disparity is an issue of concern for American citizens. ``

What? Why? A simple narration of facts, or a desvription of both sides without editorial content is not ideologically motivated. In that sense, the Chicago Tribune and your post are different from each other.

2. It is NOT biased to point out:

``a. that thousands of pages related to Roberts and his opinions are being withheld at the time period of ``his interview with the American people`` as was put recently. Most Americans are in favor of wage parity-esp. the growing female constituency who comprise at least half of this country`s workforce. ``

Wage Parity is already law in America. That is the whole point. To link the Roberts case to ``wage parity`` is wholly misleading when it is actually about ``comparable value``. Two different things.

Re: # 208 by Saminasha

``You know as well as I do that the Reps have been creating policy that violates our civil rights...our current administration apparently no longer is required to provide the burden of proof before invading and gutting a country at the expense of tens of thousands of lives...it no longer has to provide legimately functioning institutions like FEMA...and now we are being asked to stack our Supreme Court with people whose personal biases are predicated on their notions of inequality.``

What`s the matter Sam-i-na-sha-sahab? DEMOCRACY ain`t workin` out the way you claimed it does? Like the man said, he has received the mandate in 2004 :-)~~

You can`t impeach him, `cause then there`s Dickie in line. If by a long shot you do get Dickie too, the Speaker is a Rep and GWB crony too. Even if you manage to assassinate him, the CJ is a Rep too... All the while, the Rep/Neocon controlled Pentagon won`t give you the stats on black and hispanic casualty rates in the two World Wars and the this Gulf War, while Kerry polishes his purple heart at home and make sure it doesn`t bleed for the dying and the dead.

Yeeeeeehawwwwwwwwwwww!

Whatcha gonna do MISS PERFECT DEMOCRATIC MODEL`s wannabe spokeswoman? And all of them are gonna have the Skinheads, Aryan Bros, KKK come looking for your Paki behind in a very short time, especially `cause you don`t like `em, and to them you`re either a commie or a MAUSLEM whether you accept it or not.

YEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWW

Rozaib....look what`s happenin` to your holiest document? OMG, is the blue passport no good?

:-)~~

Stuka,

1. EVERY article written, EVERY text is ideologically driven. I posted that article to make it clear that Robert`s attitudes towards wage disparity is an issue of concern for American citizens.

2. It is NOT biased to point out:

a. that thousands of pages related to Roberts and his opinions are being withheld at the time period of ``his interview with the American people`` as was put recently. Most Americans are in favor of wage parity-esp. the growing female constituency who comprise at least half of this country`s workforce.

b. There are appro. three fields in which wage parity has been achieved.

c. That Roberts` bias against wage parity is linked to other notions and policies of inequality.

You may find it convenient to dismiss these legitimate issues as ``crapola``, but thats really not my problem. It is typical of the rep lack of vision, however.

This article IS about ethnicity and identity and linkages thereof....so sorry, once again, you`ve missed the point...

``You can post articles that say your mama was a nobel preace prize winning beauty queen, but I`m not wasting my time with you anymore for reasons I have detailed.
``

Yes, the ``echo chamber`` of the liberal left is on display here. Discussions are to be made only on the basis of ideologically admissible positions. Facts do not count.

#229, Stuka {``I request you to keep the insults limited to political slurs and not include religion, nationality or ethnicity.``}

Stuka,
My friend. You are almost there. When she resorts to personal, ethnic, religious, or insults related to names, you know that she is losing a debate. :)

{``#227 by Saminasha on September 13, 2005 1:48pm PT
NtSyed,

You really are a sick little creep, arent you? ``}

You can always tell when she is losing a debate. :)

Samina:

You are right. I have been Red Baiting. But only to retaliate aginst your bait and switch tactics. Admit that the article you posted was ideologically biased to begin with and we can re-engage.

The Chicago Tribune is NOT a Republican newspaper. Yet, it gives a much more truthfull description of the judgement compared to the article you posted.

``It seems pretty obvious that the ISNA has its peers in the Indian Republican community. ``

Why do you bring in my nationality into this? Have I called you a Muslim Marxist or a Pakistani Marxist?? You could say that ISNA has its peers in the Republican community, and while disagreeing with your statement, Ii would not dispute it.

We have been ideological foes on this site for quite a while and barring a few unpleasent scenes, have managed to remain civil with each other. I request you to keep the insults limited to political slurs and not include religion, nationality or ethnicity.

#196, ntsyed sahib {``Look at Mrs Clinton, the reigning champion of women`s rights succumbed to social/political pressure to let Mr. Clinton off the hook for exploring Miss Lewinsky`s dental hygiene with tools only reserved for Mrs Clinton. She couldn`t contest, let alone lose 2008 presidential circus, if it wasn`t for Mr. Lollipop hubby.``}

NT Bhai,
You outdid yourself in this particular post. I mean I laughed so hard that my viewpoint moved several points to the right on the political spectrum. I have heard many descriptions of Clinton`s philandering episode, but this has to be among the funniest. Have you noticed how none of the femiNAZIS ever questions Clinton`s actions?

NtSyed,

You really are a sick little creep, arent you?

Stuka,

You can post articles that say your mama was a nobel preace prize winning beauty queen, but I`m not wasting my time with you anymore for reasons I have detailed.

Re: # 203 by Semi-nasha

``Beeyatch, your time is over``
Awwwwwww.... I`m just warmin` up toots... :-)~~

``...you dont exist....``
I exist
...in your nightmares
...in your yelling at your husband, when you`ll call out my name instead of his
...in your son`s innocent question: ``Mommy, why did you burn your trainers when you were a li`l girl?

HAHAHAHA

``....blow yourself silly....``
Why, you have a tootache?

:-)~~

#203, {``#203 by Saminasha on September 13, 2005 12:36pm PT
Re: # 196

Beeyatch, your time is over....blow yourself silly....you dont exist....``}

With that kind of hysteria and that kind of attitude, how can they expect financial parity?

Woud you want someone like that at the controls of our nucular arsenal? :)

Here is a report by the Chicago Tribune, hardly a darling of the right, but much closer to the truth compared to Saminasha`s Soviet style propaganda...

Notice, not ``pay equity`` as in same pay for the same job that Saminasha insinuated, but ``comparable worth`` which is the same pay for different jobs based on the value of labor, a concept straight out of Marxist theory.

If we were to confirm judges that met with Saminasha`s approval, we could reasonable expect Gulags in Alaska and long lines for shoes, groceries and every other consumer item...and yeah, Americans would be swimming to get to Cuba!! :0)

Roberts criticized equal pay decision
`Comparable worth` theory ridiculed

By Jan Crawford Greenburg and Naftali Bendavid
Washington Bureau
Published August 16, 2005


WASHINGTON -- As a young lawyer in the Reagan White House, Supreme Court nominee Judge John Roberts Jr. helped shape the debate on some of the era`s most controversial issues, including abortion and school prayer. And he held nothing back when analyzing the revolutionary theory of ``comparable worth,`` a proposal to pay women the same salaries as men even when they were in different jobs.

The theory, supported by the Carter administration to achieve pay equity, was one of the more contentious labor issues of the time. When a federal judge approved it in Washington state in 1983, Roberts harshly criticized the novel ruling as giving judges, not the market, the power to decide the value of different jobs, according to new documents released Monday.

The judge in the ``comparable worth`` case had ruled that certain state jobs done primarily by women, such as laundry work, should be paid at the same rate as jobs done by men, such as driving trucks, if their worth to society was roughly the same.

``It is difficult to exaggerate the perniciousness of the `comparable worth` theory,`` Roberts, then an associate White House counsel, wrote to White House Counsel Fred F. Fielding in early 1984. ``It mandates nothing less than the central planning of the economy by judges.``

ntsyed #206,
Thank you sir. I just thought that while everyone was writing to temporal sahib, I may as well make a case for the endangered gender.

Stuka,

I am not interacting with you because you have not responded in a way that has shown any respect for what I am saying. I also find it unfortunately, quite telling, that having been unable to honestly engage with the thesis of this article, you have had resort to red baiting tactics. It seems pretty obvious that the ISNA has its peers in the Indian Republican community.

Stuka,
I found your position on the ``equal pay`` issue to be very logical. People should be paid according to their value to the enterprise - just let the ``free market`` dictate rates. The more these femiNAZIS tamper with the natural scheme of things, the more screwed up this world is going to get. Thank God, most women are more against them.

Saminasha:

I am asking you to post here. But please do not post misleading stuff and expect to go unchallenged.

YOU WERE MISLEADING TO BEGIN WITH. THE ISSUE ON WHICH ROBERTS COMMENTED IS NOT ``PAY EQUITY`` BUT ``COMPARABLE WORTH``.

Comparable worth is just an attempt to use the pretext of equal rights for women as a means of putting government in charge of private and public sector wage rates. It is worth noting that wage discrimination on the basis of gender already is illegal. The government has structures in place to assure that a woman doing the same job as a man receives the same compensation.

Ultimatly, you Marxists want that the government determine wage rates. Straight out of Karl Marx. Whereas the US constitution provides for freedom of capital, inherently allowing the market to determine wage levels.

September 13, 2005
Making Roberts Talk
By JOHN TIERNEY
He came, he charmed, he shut up. During the opening statements, the senators blathered away their time and more; Judge John Roberts used less than half of his to utter a few graceful generalities. He has made a career out of not saying the wrong thing. Why start now?

A lawyer who has been cross-examined dozens of times by the Supreme Court will not be caught off guard by senators posing as legal scholars. There has never been a nominee better prepared to dodge constitutional questions.

The only hope for Democrats is to try the tactics used by interrogation pros like Israeli airport screeners and U.S. customs agents. These experts know that a smart criminal will have rehearsed a cover story for, say, what he was doing in London and why he`s going to New York.

But if he`s asked something unexpected - how he liked the London weather, whether he`s planning to visit Times Square - he has to change mental gears. He`s apt to exhibit telltale signs of a liar under stress, like gazing upward and to his right as he answers.

I`m not suggesting that Mr. Roberts is a liar, or that anything the Democrats ask today could stop him from being confirmed. But they might at least keep TV viewers awake by trying questions like these:

If Roe v. Wade were a tree, what kind of tree would it be?

Is there any chance that you could speed up Justice Stevens`s retirement by addressing him as ``Gramps``?

After seeing a judge`s robes in a Gilbert and Sullivan production, Chief Justice Rehnquist added gold stripes to his robe. If confirmed, will you keep the stripes, or do you have a whole new look in mind?

In your best judgment, did Brad and Jen really just grow apart, or was it Angelina`s fault?

From your analysis of constitutional history, would you classify James Madison as a dog person or a cat person?

Suppose you`d been in Solomon`s place when he proposed cutting the baby in two. And suppose neither woman objected. Would you have cut the baby? Flipped a coin? Or opted for foster care?

You`ve said you`re a devotee of P. G. Wodehouse. Of the current justices, who is most like Jeeves? Who`s most like Bertie Wooster?

Would you consider instituting a casual Friday dress policy on the bench?

Would it be a violation of Lois Lane`s so-called right to privacy if Superman used his X-ray vision to look through her clothes?

Would you think it`s cool if a professional wrestler dubbed himself Chief Justice, or would you sue him for trademark infringement?

During the announcement of your nomination at the White House, your son distracted the president with an impromptu dance. When you got home that night, what happened to him?

Would Thomas Jefferson have preferred the Beatles or the Stones?

After Justice Souter`s opinion in the Kelo case endorsed the use of eminent domain to seize peoples` homes for a higher ``public use,`` a group proposed that the town of Weare in New Hampshire increase its tax revenue by taking Justice Souter`s property there so that a developer could build a resort called the Lost Liberty Hotel. Would your family ever vacation there?

What goes on four legs in the morning, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening?

When you were a clerk at the Supreme Court, Chief Justice Warren Burger was disliked for his pretentiousness. What nickname did the clerks have for him? Burger King?

Does President Bush have a nickname for you yet?

When justices have birthday parties, should they invite all the other justices, or can they invite just the ones they like?

If Vice President Dick Cheney and Justice Scalia invited you duck hunting, would you go?

If Judge Judy isn`t afraid of television cameras in her courtroom, why is the Supreme Court so chicken?

Ashley or Mary-Kate?

Your passion for correct grammar and syntax is well known, but you have yet to inform the American people of your position on the serial comma. In the phrase ``life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,`` should there be a comma after ``liberty``?

How would you edit this sentence to make it grammatically correct?: ``I swear I ain`t never gonna overturn Roe v. Wade.``

Why did you turn to the right and look upward?

#208, {``This political situation is insanity....the fundamentalists in the Muslim and Jewish world are mirrored by Christians here....because none of these seriously, seriously incompetant people have any NOR do they have want any knowledge of what life was like during the American 1950s and before.``}

Weren`t the `50s fondly remembered as ``The Happy Days?`` You just can`t go around making wide sweeping statements and get upset when people call your bluff. From all that I have heard and read, the `50s, despite the terrible segregation that existed in the deep South, were a period of American zenith in terms of confidence, compassion, hard work, family values, employment, and quality of life for most Americans. In fact, the good times, good feelings, and prosperity of the `50s were responsible for the real beginning of the Civil Rights movement.

Don`t tell me that you prefer the modern days of equality with single moms caring for several children from multiple fathers? Before, women worked out of interest and passion for their fields, now women work to eat, just like men always have. :)

Stuka,

I`m serious. Dont waste my time.

`` beg your pardon? You expect me to interact with you after you have dismissed my statement and subsequent proof that Roberts is anti pay parity?
``

Please feel free to articulate your opinions in a vaccum. Your definition of ``pay parity`` is inherently Marxist and against the spirit of the US constitution which stands for freedom (including freedom of Capital)

``As you seem to suffer from the delusion that some lives are more valuable than others, I dont expect you to understand the concept of equal pay for equal labor. Now, I`ve had enough of you. ``

The value of labor is defined by the market. That is all I have to say on this...

``And why have you not had the decency to acknowledge that your info has been incorrect``

How is it incorrect? Roberts has not advocated discrimination of wage levels by gender as you insinuated.

Re: # 212

I beg your pardon? You expect me to interact with you after you have dismissed my statement and subsequent proof that Roberts is anti pay parity?

Dream on your own dime.

``...we can only HOPE that IF Roberts is confirmed that he is competant enough to detach himself from making sober judgements of the constitution...``

If he is not, another Bush appointee will. After all, how long can Congress keep on denying confirmation?

``but shouldnt we put an end to this mediocrity of spirit?``

How? By thwarting the democratic will of the people? The Republicans did win the congressional as well as the Presidential elections.

``Why are we always ``damaging controlling`` the fundo tendencies of the rep party? Is it not clear where the rep party has mired us? ``

Fundo tendencies are your perception. The fact is that these United States are founded on Jedeo Christian principles which consitute the bedrock of the nation. Why should the will of the majority of the people be ``damage controlled`` by a few who do not even believe in the American constitution in spirit?

Re: # 210

And why have you not had the decency to acknowledge that your info has been incorrect?

Stuka,

As you seem to suffer from the delusion that some lives are more valuable than others, I dont expect you to understand the concept of equal pay for equal labor. Now, I`ve had enough of you.

Saminasha:

``“Their slogan may as well be, ‘From each according to his ability, to each according to her gender.’”

Lady, there is a difference between advocating the lack of gender as a defining role in attributing salary structure versus mandating euality of pay on the basis of gender alone. Why should a man and a woman be paid the same if they bring two different levels of qualifications to the job.

A reali life example: I make more than a woman who holds the same position simply because I negotiated a better salary coming in. That situation was influenced by factors as myriad as my having a job when I applied for this one and her being laid off and without a job. OTOH, I earn less than another man who happens to have an MBA from a better school. So what????

If men and women were to have mandatory euality of pay based on gender alone, then it would logically extend to all men and all women earning the same. What about ability? What about the flexibility for employers to negotiate salaries? That scenario would bring us startlingly close, as Roberts puts it, to Marxism.

Yassir,

You know as well as I do that the Reps have been creating policy that violates our civil rights...our current administration apparently no longer is required to provide the burden of proof before invading and gutting a country at the expense of tens of thousands of lives...it no longer has to provide legimately functioning institutions like FEMA...and now we are being asked to stack our Supreme Court with people whose personal biases are predicated on their notions of inequality.

This political situation is insanity....the fundamentalists in the Muslim and Jewish world are mirrored by Christians here....because none of these seriously, seriously incompetant people have any NOR do they have want any knowledge of what life was like during the American 1950s and before. This self congratulatory ignorance is a dangerous thing.

You may be satisfied with checks and balances...we can only HOPE that IF Roberts is confirmed that he is competant enough to detach himself from making sober judgements of the constitution...but shouldnt we put an end to this mediocrity of spirit? Why are we always ``damaging controlling`` the fundo tendencies of the rep party? Is it not clear where the rep party has mired us?

Saminasha,

I`ve been listening to Judge Roberts very carefuly... at the hearings earlier today and I find prima facie nothing wrong with the guy that might make him unfit to be the Chief Justice of the United States as long as he does what he claims he will.. rule according to the Constitution of the United States with all its amendments.

We know he is a conservative.. we know he will not be an activist .... but the criterion is whether he would be far right.

Re: # 190

FUNNY! TOOOO FUNNY!

ROTFL!

:-)~~

Re: # 193

fundo angst...

schadenfundo...

fundofunk...

fundophrenia...

Re: # 193

Hear hear!

Re: # 196

Beeyatch, your time is over....blow yourself silly....you dont exist....