That’s me in the Corner Losing My Religion

When we humans can`t easily create prejudice and hatred through obvious physical differences we invent ways. The formation of religious groups is one of the principal means we`ve invented in order to classify and separate one person from another. It (religion) stimulates hatred and violence, sometimes in service of theologians and often in service of demagogues and tyrants. My antipathy towards all religion resides principally in this...the prejudice it engenders and the hatred that follows.
Today`s prejudices for the most part are not caused by historical events - the real causes are proximal, not distal. They are nearer in time and nearer the heart. Demagogues and other unprincipled people use historical events to arouse our latent prejudice and hatred, but we can do it on our own. We are fully capable of citing historical events to ``justify`` the expression of feelings or attitudes that are within us, that are profoundly a part of (or a chink in) our nature.
mirmir

allow me to kill another myth too:
`` I mean, the ONLY advantage of being a Muslim male is the enhanced equipment we are bestowed as a result.``

This is total BS. If you ever visited websites discussing issues related to circumcision, they`d tell you it really doesn`t matter as long as you can retract your foreskin. Most natural male members come with that option. Ain`t it better than never being able to cover the glans? :)

And hey, this is definitely true: years of exposure could make the glans less sensitive. And that does definitely degrade performance. I can`t wait to see the rush to the undo-circ clinics :-))

hamidm2: hinduism (i, and many others, would appreciate if you could avoide the archaic spelling hindooism) has no issues with circumcision. unlike islam which preaches that everything belongs to Allah and hence you are answerable to Him, hinduism only says everything was created by the Brahman (not Brahmin, in case you were thinking of the caste). so even if you are circumcised, it doesn`t mean you can`t become hindu. so many hindu kids these days come circumcised (for quasi-medical reasons). well, if i answered your question right, hope it solved any doubts. and yeah, welcome anyday to hinduism. our doors are open to you :)

#6 Romair:

From this post, you look like a grown up kid.

Re: # 28

``no wonder you have accepted another mass murderer, osama bin laden, as your pir and murshid``

No sir, you insist that I have. He has a long way to go before one can compare him to Khalid bin Walid (ra)

Thanks to the daisy cutters and gitmo, indeed. If it wasn`t for these, Muslims could not recognize the Evil disguised as purveyors of ``peace and freedom``.

:-)~~

As Salaam u Alaikum,

nice piece....

check out this speech by a good friend and mentor, farid esack, at the last isna conference...

http://ihsan-net.blogspot.com/2005/09/islam-and-social-justice.html

nasheed in beginning, intros, faird`s speech, ingrid mattson`s speech, and question and answers at end...

on Islam, Social justice (within and outside the muslim community, imperialism and `imperial-friendly` islam....

#31, Kulharee {``Allow me to kill another myth. Hindus can be circumcised and many are. ``}

Well, the secret`s out and the long long mystery of the Miller Light beer commercial is now solved. :)

#31, Kulharee {``Allow me to kill another myth. Hindus can be circumcised and many are. ``}

However, there is a rumor that many of these were born in Jewish hospitals in NYC and were automatically subjected to this cruelty. Several lawsuits are now pending.

#31, Kulharee {``Allow me to kill another myth. Hindus can be circumcised and many are. ``}

Yes, and most of them are boys.

#31, Kulharee {``Allow me to kill another myth. Hindus can be circumcised and many are. ``}

Just the smart ones. :)

and those not having any plans to have their children live in Gujarat.

I don’t think you are losing your religion, but discovering it. Don’t go for the labels – yes Muslims can go to a pub, yes Muslims can have girl/boy friends and wear Abercrombie and Diesel. Don’t pigeonhole Muslims because your grandmother couldn’t get a date. She was referring to your grand-dad riding on her knees. Giddi up you little Satan!

Allow me to kill another myth. Hindus can be circumcised and many are.

hamidm2 #19, {``is it possible to convert back to hindooism from islam given the fact that you are now circumcised ?....... do they have to sew the prepuce back on again ? ............ i suspect, and it is a strong suspicion, that most desi muslims would convert back to the religion of their forefathers if it wasn`t for this little foreskin problem ......... no ? ``}

Hamid Sahib,
Lahore Vilayet Kuwait. :(

I don`t care if you convert to Jehova`s Witnesses or the Kharijities, but your remark about longing for that missing foreskin was totally insensitive. How could you? I mean, the ONLY advantage of being a Muslim male is the enhanced equipment we are bestowed as a result. Yes, it is a ceremony for the benefit of Muslim women, but our sacrifice at such a young and tender age, does deliver on its long promise. You should be ashamed of yourself for belittling the one advantage that even you should thank the good Lord for. :)

Sher Khan,
Well written. I found your viewpoint quite interesting.
One question:
{``My grandmother for instance the other day preached to me that the Koran says that if I shake my legs it means I am giving Satan a ride.``}

What about if one ``keeps one leg on the ground and the other one in the air.?`` Please don`t tell me about the fire hyrant. :)

What about if one ``merely spreads the legs without shaking them?``

There are many questions. I hope there are similar explanantions for the various positions that legs can attain.

Thanks,

ntsyed,

``i`ve been a fan of Khalid bin Walid (ra) ``........... no wonder you have accepted another mass murderer, osama bin laden, as your pir and murshid ........thank god for daisy cutters and club guantanamo !

This article is too dumb to merit so many replies.

Romair, I am impressed. Captain Clueless no more, I suppose.

hamidm, don`t waste your time here. Contribute to the arundhati roy thread instead. At least she`s pretty.

Author, this is your last warning. If you use an REM song as title to garner readership for your pathetic pieces again, I shall sue you in court. Mind it!

Re: # 25

hamidm,

I`m glad you`re cool :-)~~

just so you know, i`ve been a fan of Khalid bin Walid (ra) ever since I started reading the history as a young boy...long before OBL came into picture.

:-)~~

Re: # 24

nt,

...... i was just trying to help you out ........no offence taken....

Re: # 23

ROTFL...It always works perfectly like Japanese electronics and German autos.

Just kidding, hamidm...dil pe na lo yaar.


:-)~~

Re: # 22

ntsyed,

here are a few quotes to inspire you :

1. ``We love death as much as the infidels love life.`` .... osama bin laden and khalid bin walid ..........

2. ``The young homicide bomber walking into a Tel Aviv discotheque has come to serve a warrant of death on people his age whose ways he yearns for yet cannot have.`` ............. foud ajami

Hear Hear Romair!

But wait! How else are we going to tease grumpy hamidm, drowning tempo, constipated tahmed32, and the Feminazis into frenzied schizophrenia?

schiz·o·phre·ni·a n.

Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and is caused by genetic, other biological, and psychosocial factors.

Yep, describes the aforementioned good folks perfectly to every dotted `i` and slashed `t`.

Just kidding guys and gals! You know I love you, don`t you?


ntsyed
:-)~~

Re: # 19
I am sure there are plenty of skinless people amongst the hurible heeendoos!

Re: # 15


``a nation created in religion naturally has religion pervasive in all aspects of life..so but natural that a large number of articles revolve around religion. ``

well said. I wonder how many religious articles are written by non-muslims/indians on their religions/``gods and his books``.

Re: # 17

.......... is there a brahmin in the house ?

..... i agree with fuzair but not with romair - we should start write articles on ``how i lost my virginity``.......... loosing your religion is no big deal - you can always find a new religion, or get back your old religion by reciting the kalima or taking a dip in a bath tub......... but once you have lost our virginity it is gone for ever (unless there are some new medical developments i am not aware of )............ talking about medical procedures ..... is it possible to convert back to hindooism from islam given the fact that you are now circumcised ?....... do they have to sew the prepuce back on again ? ............ i suspect, and it is a strong suspicion, that most desi muslims would convert back to the religion of their forefathers if it wasn`t for this little foreskin problem ......... no ?

#6 romair - I agree up to a point with what you say.
But for one moment take a back step and realise thatchowk has plenty of the stuff you can read. Unfortunately they do not generate the heat. I would tend to agree with beejay here....a sracy person beejay is!

I agree with Romair; ban articles on religion; getting tired of this tripe.

wo wo wo! Mr sher khan..........................

you cannt blame whole muslims community.........that they are following traditions as you mentioned you asked someone why does he go to mosque on every eid and jumma.....and he replied........bcuz everyone goes so i go............this is the reply of person whom you know..................so this doesn`t mean that every muslim is doing like this as you mentioned...if you wanna wrote something like this.....then you should ask many people from other parts of the countries aswell.......bcuz islam is not only the practice.......it is to hve same scarness in yourself of your GOD.......................
and when you talk about librel islam ... then this is totally a stupidness...........because i`ve seen since muslims are trying to adopt liberal islam they are going downwards.........you can see it every where...........first example i will give you of turkey.......he is trying to get into euorope for a long time........and still he didnt get any kind of response......and now pakistan is following the same........
but this doesn`t mean people who are really practicing truely just for the sake of ALLAH they will change their values....

a nation created in religion naturally has religion pervasive in all aspects of life..so but natural that a large number of articles revolve around religion.

Re#6 Romair

Dear Romair,

For a long time (feels like years, even though I know it’s not) I have felt like writing you a letter, but the opportunity never arose. It’s not your fault, of course! My dear, you are such an expert on the demerits of the Pakistani feudals – an area I know little (alas, SO little) about (except that upon reading your stuff, I must confess that I have occasionally dreamt (even fantasized) about being one) that I just did not have a chance!

Finally, you have kindly provided me this occasion – and it will be the height of foolishness for me to not avail of it.

What you say has a lot of merit – this web site really focuses on religion to the exclusion of everything else under the sky – especially to the exclusion of those expressions of heartfelt outpourings of whatever you so heart-feelingly outpour into our open hearts (and some claim open warts). Who cares about religion, especially around here – after all it was not THIS crowd which voted in a whole country on that basis (alas, if only we had the fauzis in control back then, none of this would ever have happened – they increase cohesiveness like nothing else – perhaps we would not have this problem – perhaps we would not have any problems – perhaps we wouldn’t have anything!)!

I can see all those writers and interactors shaking with fear (perhaps relieving themselves by bucketfuls) – who have so far been merrily shaking their booties – as both the boorish and bozo crowds have been buying all that buck-waas – yes THOSE ones – now shrinking shudderingly into suffocating shells – so mortally afraid of the immense power of what you have unleashed here!

And I also agree we focus too much on social problems – why talk about women’s issues, for example, we KNOW that there is a woman lurking behind every issue anyway! And didn’t we already crush that dalit to powder ages ago – doesn’t the name itself tells us so – so what’s he doing lurking behind so many of those write-ups? And all those other problems of the world – didn’t this chowk crowd already fix those AGES ago?

And while we are at it, let’s not spare those poets – we have SO much poetry around here – especially by this T-guy (masquerading as T-bhai, what’s wrong with “coffee, bhai?”) – not to mention some of those pesky interactors! It’s an absolute deluge!

And now that the Gillster CLAIMS to have retired, I wish he would also stop writing in that “who knows why it’s here, when nobody reads it” ‘University Avenue’ page!! Yeah! All those articles – written by ONE person! What’s he doing and what the heck he’s trying – trying to run the show all by himself – converting the vast masses of vain voyeurs into vicars via vivisection? (Did I say “convert”? Off he goes!!)

Yes, I wholeheartedly endorse the six month moratorium on religion here – perhaps not only here but everywhere, on religion itself and– especially religion as practiced by the likes of hamidm!

Sincerely,
Beej.

I agree whole-heartedly with Romair.
SJ

Ditto to Romair. Too much of this religion thing on Chowk. Can we get a break now? But this is not to say I did not enjoy this. A promising start Shar.

Re: # 6

Dear Romair,

I finally understood you. I agree with what you wrote completely.

Thank you.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Hallo... what is wrong with losing your religion? I think losing our religion, whatever it may be, makes us more open-minded, accepting, flexible, and spiritual - all in the good sense.

cheerio,
-zensufi-

what a crappy article

#6

I third this suggestion.. no more religion ..

this thing has been thrashed to death..

romair:
#6

i second that amen!!

and well articulated !

Romair

Amen!!!

Oops! here I go again starting a religion war!!

Not totally related to this article, but:

There are far too many discussions and articles, related to religion and its off-shoot - secularism - on Chowk. It`s a complete waste of time, discussing this stuff, everyday. Chowk is turning into the drug pusher, who pushes the same drug so much that eventually people get addicted to it, and see their whole lives centered around the drug.

Religion this, religion that, secularism this, secularism that. I cannot think of anyone who is more useless to a society, than a person, whose whole center of intellectual gravity is locked into religion and secularism. They can never do anything productive or constructive, other than pontificate about how they have the exact solution for the world - be it religious or secular - and ridicule anyone who is different from them.

This is why, the most argumentative, time-wasting, abusive, and self-righteous individuals on this site are the ones who push religion and secularism the whole day, or oppose either the whole day. After five years, one would think they would have exhuasted themselves, but they still go on. And to this day, I have not seen a single one of them convince someone of an opposing view, to their view of the world!

What a complete waste of intellectual bandwidth.........How about discussing economics and poetry and literature and science and business and construction and art and industry and philanthrapy and history and medicine etc. Something that people can use to raise their standard of living........

Chowk, unfortunately, keeps pumping the above individuals up by putting one article after another about these two topics. As if Pakistan (and the rest of the world) have no other issue. Not a single major thing will change in Pakistan if it becomes religious. And not a single major thing will change if it becomes secular. Not one. This I know for a fact. Since these two topics are important only to tiny minorities of the population. If religion is brought in, those bringing it in will secure their own sects, but continue to discriminate against other sects. If secularism in brought in, those bringing it in, will stop discriminating against Ahmedis, but will continue to discriminate against Pakistani homosexuals and gays and others whom they don`t like.........

So, could I make a humble request: Could Chowk stop publishing article after article on religion and/or secularism, 24 x 7. And things related to them like ISNA and terrorism and Ata-Turk and what not. One article should be enough. And tell people who have no other knowledge, to start increasing their knowledge in other areas, and then write articles. I think we have heard everything they have to offer on religion and secularism. At the very least, how about no more than one article related to religion/secularism on the front page........

This has to be one of the main reasons tha the discourse on Chowk has never been able to go beyond abusive name calling between those pushing religion and those pushing secularism. They have, unfortunately, been allowed to take center stage.

Get SR to write a few articles about economics. I learn more from one of his articles than from from ten articles on why someone wants to wear shorts or a hijab. Or why Jinnah said this word or that in a speech. While I enjoy hamidm`s writing skills and comedy, I am really far more interested in what he does as a consultant (about which we know nothing) than his views on religion - about which we know more than should be humanly allowable. And while Ahmedis are an important part of our society, so are gays, homosexuals, bisexuals, eunuchs, Ismailis and khojas and sharecroppers and challiwallahs and bus conductors and the fishermen in Gwadar and other minorities. How about publishing such articles. And while Naqshbandi quoting his aulia all the time may be entertaining for a while, I am far more interested in what Naqshbandi is studying in his Ph.D. And while Urstruly has some interesting hadith on the size of a man`s underwear, I would be far more interested in him describing the military tactics used by Khalid bin Walid in his many battles.....

So here is an idea: How about we declare the next six months to be Religion/Secularism free months on Chowk. You won`t be able to ban one and allow the other. They are mutually parasitical. You have to ban them both, together. No article related to these topics, be it Jinnah or terrorism or hijab or Taliban or Turkey or anything else. Create a separate place for people who want to fight these battle, somewhere in a Chowk corner.

Believe me, the standard of Chowk will go up exponentially.............There is, after all, a lot more to Pakistan and to the world, than religion and secularism..........if the world`s problems could be solved by these two things, we wouldn`t need doctors, and engineers and economists and artists...........

It would appear that you are taking up the example of individuals to devoid you of the spiritual stuggle within yourslef ( I assumed as you concieve the existence of `Initiater` )

As to the lower intellectual interpretations of an under-previliged society like majority of mulsims in Pakistan and elsewhere, there shouldnt be any one better placed than your self to reflect and not not lose the grip on truth.

sher khan,

........... i hope you have not submitted this paper to your eighth grade school social science teacher yet - you will get a c (maybe a c+) ...............

...... chowk staff: do you guys even look at what you put up on the fp ? .............. please !

Dear Mr Sher Khan,
Appearances can be deceptive.
Islam is not a religion of a particular group of people or a particular geographic area. Islam is a way of life for all. So there is no such thing as an Islamic culture. Anything that doesnt contradict a basic Islamic ruling is permissible. If a person wants to wear jeans and joggers to cover himself up, then there is nothing wrong with that. But if someone wants to wear a shalwar kameez with a deep neck line, then its not permissible.
My teacher has taught me to question the sort of Islam that is still to be implemented on Muslims? What sort of Islam is it? Isnt it enough that we are all muslims? The Islamic parties are hypocrites, they call themselves Islamic, are the other political parties Non Islamic? Is the Jamaat-e-Islami the Only `Islamic` Jamaat and all the others are Non Islamic?? Is the Muslim League the Only League for Muslims and all the others are Non Muslims???
As my teacher used to pray, I also pray
`May Allah Save Islam from the Muslims`
Amin Sum Amin.

Mein nay aur shaitan nay milker Janat ki dewar say jhanka
Sehmay howay houro kay pechay Wehshi mullah bhag rahay thay...

One Islam.

Gzallions of Interpretations...

eemaan mujhe rokay hai jo kheenchay hai mujhe kufr
kaaba mere peechhay hai kaleesa mere aagay

I think the time for dichotomy is up. In the life of nations these things take time; but I am quite hopeful. May be in my lifetime I will not be able to see the positive effects of what is going on with this process but one thing is for sure that wheel has started turning in an irreversible direction.