Because He Couldn’t Get It Up!

Re: # 35

yasser`s family already has US green cards - so does Mushy`s family. So these guys are all set. ..... we are not sure how the green cards came - was there any kind of ``staged rape`` or even ``staged flogging``? .....we don`t know....

#6 by Mantolives
``I love it how Indians love to exploit all such things and it gets their creative juices flowing... when Pakistan is getting a bad rep... This.. coming from the land of millions of phoolan devis, honour, caste etc. ``

Wow! so now it is ``our internal issue`` stuff. When it is Kashmiri`s right than it becomes Pakistani`s birthright to get involved. When it is a question of human rights in their own country than it becomes a question of ``biradari``!!

Yaseer - BTW is your family interested in migrating to Canada?

I read today an article in the Washington Post clearly stating that three reporters had been present at the interview where Mushy made that unbelieveable remark. Mushy`s aides were present and took notes.

The article says that the interview had been taped, and that the tapes were reviewed. Washington Post, one of the most respected newspapers in the world, confirmed that Mushy DID say what he was quoted as having said.

The truth is clear.

The President of Pakistan lied.

Aniticipating the volley of protests that may follow, let me say the following :

- Someone else had made the comment, not Mushy. Q. Who was that person ?

- It was all a Zionist plot by an imperialistic newspaper. Q. If so, why did Mushy give a taped interview to this paper ?

- Mushy just told the truth - things are like that it Pakistan, and Mushy cannot do much about it. Q. Why did he bring out in the open the real state of things in Pakistan, and thus shame his country before the whole world ?

- Mushy was not the right mood when he said that, just a slip. Q - Was he having his menses, or was he being raped ?

Bottom line - President Pervez Musharraf made a totally indiscreet statement, and now he is lying to avoid guilt. Is he a bit like Bill Clinton ? Or did he have a couple of ``barra peg``s before he went on stage ?

This entire incident brings shame on Pakistan. I share with all my Pakistani friends the shame of this affair. I cannot deny that there are similar incidents in India, and that many in the West would equate India with Pakistan as countries ``who did that sort of thing``.

Unfortunately, Mushy is Supreme. That is the pity.

India threw out Indira after the Emergency, and borught in a mish-mash Government, which India again threw out after three years because it did not perform.

India threw out ``India Shining`` - because BJP made India shine for the rich, not the poor.

I do wish Pakistan gets back to democracy some day. Seems unlikely, since the democratic leaders produced to date are pathetic.

Ho Hum - Mushy Zindabad, and Pakistani Army - jeetey raho.

temporal,

What are you going to do with Musharraf now that he`s talking the talk you wanna hear:

He also criticised Islamic societies for failing to embrace modernity. ``Many of us remain wrapped in a time warp, still struggling to reconstruct our political, social and economic systems to respond to the challenges of our times,``he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

He seems to be your Great Whitish-Brown (more like a yellow) Hope in Pakistan.

You`ve got a dilemma on your tiny li`l hands, don`t you boy?

:-D~~

A lot of boot lickers on this board would agree with Mush on this bit about Canadian visas. Through this novel method the Paki General has shown his willingness to help a lot of Pakistanis seeking migration to Canada ....................................


Outrage at Musharraf rape remarks

The Karachi protest attracted 19 activist and women`s groups
Pakistani activists have reacted with outrage to recent comments on rape victims by President Pervez Musharraf.
He said that rape was a ``money-making concern`` and many argued it was a way to get money and a visa to emigrate.

Pakistan`s most-high profile rape victim, Mukhtar Mai, told the BBC no woman could subject herself to ``such a horrendous experience`` to make money.

Women`s groups and activists protested in Karachi on Friday, shouting: ``Down with chauvinism``.

`Money for justice`

The president made his comments in an interview with the Washington Post on 13 September, incensing campaigners and others at home.

``You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern,`` he said.

``A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.``

PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF

A lot people say if you want to go abroad... get yourself raped


In Karachi on Friday, 19 rights and advocacy groups vented their anger at the remarks, holding banners such as: ``Who wants to be a millionaire - just get raped!``

Sumar Mallah, a fisherman whose five-year-old daughter was raped and killed on 5 September, was at the rally.

Mr Mallah said: ``The police and the rapists have been insisting that I accept money and forget about my daughter. I will never settle for money. I want justice.``

Activist Fauzia Burney said: ``General Musharraf`s remarks are so shocking because they are so removed from reality.``

Mukhtar Mai, who shot to world attention after being gang raped in 2002, allegedly on the orders of a village council or panchayat, earlier told the BBC: ``I offer all the riches I`ve made out of the panchayat-enforced gang-rape to the president in return for justice.``

The Women`s Action Forum described the president`s comments as ``outrageous``.

Last week President Musharraf told a conference on violence against women in Islamabad that Pakistan should not be singled out for its treatment of women.

He also lashed out at rights groups for their role in highlighting cases such as Ms Mai`s outside the country. Leading rights groups called the conference a ``farce``.

The president`s critics say he pays only lip service to cracking down on the abuse of women, hundreds of whom are raped and murdered every year in so-called honour cases in Pakistan.

Despite government protestations that it is doing much to help women, many of those who try to register cases of rape and violence find it as hard as ever to do so, campaigners say.

Re: # 23

What kind of a perverted pleasure do you and your friends get in misrepresenting the situation?

Do you think a common man is enjoying what happened to Sonia Naz; that he does not fear it could happen to any woman of his family?

What is the matter with you dumbasses?

Why are you so hell-bent on creating a seapration between general men and women where it doesn`t exist?

Rs20 for each child?!?!?!

Does your friend know that these kids take the Rs20, go to the make-shift school, bunk out as soon as they can just like their `managers` tell them, go back out and make Rs200 in the next couple of hours while playing on the streets?

That`s what I`m talking about...you dip-shits either don`t know, and don`t care to find out, who is behind these beggers and rapists. You just get on a freakin` bandwagon and parrot out what the East India Co`s new American bosses order you to fart out.

Hear this Mr. Ahmed Chalabi with Pakistan Origin Card, empowerment doesn`t mean you further alienate them from the rest of the society; just so when the other groups become empowered (and that always happens in the circle of life) they crush these women forever. You simply cannot empower only one particular group to help the entire society. You have to take them all together. I hope you`ll remember that in your long-term project outlook for East India American branch.

:-|~~

Re: # 27

That`s right, trivialize everything from far away using the American BULL...horn!

That`s exactly why I put the questions up there to see how much the self-proclaimed purveyors of Justice like yourself are aware of the truth, and what they`re capable of delivering to rectify the problem. NOTHING! except polluting the airwave and taking up precious bytes on the internet.

Like Mantolives said, that`s what ANAA, PANA, DEDH-ANAS are all about, just like PMU, PMS, SMS and whatever else you`ve got running around in diapers there. I say this because I`ve lived in the HELL-HOLE you call home - the USA for a major portion of my adult life. I have dealt with these impotent limp-noodles for orgs, and know what this house looks like from the inside.

DO NOT assume that everyone on this board is just as ignorant as you.

Musharraf is a dumbass for saying what he did. But that`s exactly he was referring to. These ana-panas, are todays East India Co. are good for nothing but the stirring-pot; making money and getting some press out of exploiting a victim`s predicament. Because if you call them to help out on ground zero, these -shi*t for brains are no where to be found.

I live in Pakistan and work with slums and shanti towns where police is never seen outside the thana. While the situation is not as peachy as one would like, it is not what the western press or our diaspora make it out to be....a kind of Iraqi WMD syndrome.

Like Beej said, a message is being sent here, not just to the women, but the entire society to demand its subservience. In many such cases, woman may have nothing to do with it at all. They just get caught in the middle of two power wielding parties - not necessarily individual men - obliviously involved in a size-competition. And I have this nagging feeling that Sonia Naz was just that kind of victim.

So, quit talking like a parrot with a blue passport who thinks he`s got it all figured out.

:-|~~

Re: # 27

Dear temporal:

You write [* there is no rule of law ( hence the perpetrators are seldom punished to the extent of law)]

Are there any laws regarding punishment to a rapist? I always thought that the closest law we had in Pakistan is the one on ``zina`` where by the actual act has to be witnessed by four witnesses. If I am in error, please feel free to correct it.

As usual, most humbly submitted,

B

Dear Azra Rashid,

When I read this article of yours the first time around, I was so outraged that all I could come up with was the poem I put up in #5. (I am sorry if the poem created a distraction.)

At this time, I would like to list my reasons for liking this article.

Some may not like your title. However, putting up an eye-catching title to draw attention to the underlying content is not a new thing – it is a well-accepted practice among newspapers since time immemorial and yes, it has been done again and again even on this web site. Besides, the title, like the body, is an author’s own prerogative – if others don’t like it, they have the freedom to write their own stuff on that topic (which, because of unknown reasons, somehow gets rarely done)!

Of course, it is well known that forced sex or rape is a crime of violence – whether the victim gives in or not! It is the height of absolute ignorance to imply that getting it “up” automatically involves eroticism – the animal world is full of examples of the opposite – and time and again, it has been known that sexual predators – devoid of any delicate feelings for anyone but themselves – are still able to get it “up” – whether the victim is a woman, a child, or in some cases even another male. To imply that by making the title about “getting it up” somehow it is being “sexualized” and therefore being trivialized is utter, utter nonsense. Therefore, I believe that the title is accurate on the mark and serves its purpose.

My views on Musharraf are simple – I am sorry if it hurts the feelings of individuals on either side of the India Pakistan border – I don’t see him as the legitimate “president” of Pakistan. (It is the height of absurdity to call this guy Prez Musharraf in the same way as referring to Prez Kalam!) The pure and simple fact is that though he may be a perfectly personable and likeable person as an individual, he owes his position to being the head of the army and little else (except perhaps the opportunities from a lousy field of politicians and a docile population (and this site has been in endless discussions regarding what factors have made that population docile – army, feudals, beards, culture, whatever - there could be a number of these factors, or combinations thereof). Having said all that, he is probably better than the other (army) leaders even though, from the U.S. point of view, which is the only one of concern to me, no matter which one from that pack ends up leading the pack – they will dance to the same tune – due to the same reasons that this one did!

And the culprit for this particular outrage which is focus of the article is not Musharraf the individual – but the institution that he appears to lead and claims to control.

The way I see it, the “taste” that was administered in the mouth of Ms. Naz was – symbolically a taste of humiliation that brute power, symbolized by the army, released “in her face” and perhaps in her mouth – and was administered symbolically to EVERY woman in Pakistan to show in no unclear terms who the REAL boss is – and vicariously to every woman in the world, that the man is the real boss! If Musharraf then turns around and starts talking “goal-moal” language to divert attention – or others do it on his behalf by pulling “baal kee khaal” on various parts of the trivialities which would invariably be in ANY article – they are certainly not part of the ultimate solution to these problems – since they do not have the guts to look at the problem in face. Pure and simple!

Your article brought the realization of all of the above facts to my mind, and that`s why I like it.

Sincerely,
Beej.

#26:

There`s got to be more than just the Army or feudals or Islam to it.

yes! the two obvious things that stand out

* the perpetrators are males

* there is no rule of law ( hence the perpetrators are seldom punished to the extent of law)

In my opinion, there`s a lot more to Sonia Naz case than meets eye. I don`t know the whole history, and internet doesn`t offer much beyond headlines. Could anyone please direct me to place[s] where one can discover

- what did her husband do?
- what did/does she do?
- why her husband was missing?
- who does she suspect for it?
- why she walked into the parliament instead of a local police station to inquire about her husband`s disappearance?
- who are the influential people of her district, including MNAs and MPAs?

In short, what makes her case so appealing to Asma J and officials from US consulate in Lahore to take personal interest in it, when many cases like these occur every day almost all over the country?

Why don`t the two aforementioned parties help us collect all those cases to put some weight into the struggle and make it a movement?

Again, there are a lot of unanswered questions, and they need to be answered before something could be made out of it, lest Sonia Naz suffers the Mukhtara and Shazia fate too. Like another author, Brig. Ali, said in ``Rape of another Kind``, gang rapes have become institutionalized.

- Who is behind these institutions? These couldn`t just pop up like daisies in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason. The climate, soil, space, and everything else these institutions need to thrive have to be there.

If one claims that it just happened and no particular group of people is behind it, then why doesn`t it happen to the female politicians, women of the armed forces brass, the women of the feudals, etc?

I for one don`t buy the theory that it is one group`s fault or another. Neither the jali mullahs, nor the feudals, the secular elite, rich, poor or any group of people benefit from this. At least not in any way comprehensible for me.

So who or what is behind this sudden spate of gang rapes in Pakistan within the few short recent years? And every single culprit has walked free! WHY? HOW? There`s got to be more than just the Army or feudals or Islam to it.

:-(~~

Re: # 6
ed
Hello Yasser:

Phoolan Devi stood up on her two feet, with head high adn gun in her hand with a group of bandits of her own. Took on the Thakurs with guns. Got elected to Parliament, and got married to a Thakur of her choice before she died.

Do you think Pakistani system is ready to allow Mukhtaran Mai to do this?


Hello Farzana:

Head of nation saying this in a press interview which is on tape (interviewer has told BBC news), cannot be compared to Suketu Mehta`s statement. The President can dance around with words instead he should rise above and aplogize to Pakistani women and I am sure he did not mean it, spontaniety brings out the sub-conscious mind set where such feelings, desires and habits reside any way.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere that there is more machoism and male pride in Pakistani male. I have certainly seen Pakistani females (my friends wives) who are successful professionals, doctors and engineers. They behave so docile and submissive when it comes to dealing with their husband, father and sons. I have a wonderful Pakistani American friend. His daughter is training to be a lawyer and is a close friend with my daughter. My daughter tells me how my friend`s daughter dresses, talks and behaves when she goes out alone or with my daughter. And how she dresses, talks and behaves when is with her family members. She even had a long term relationship with an American boy that none of her family members or their Pakistani American friends kids knew. She only confided about it with my daughter, as she felt safe in sharing it with my daughter. She recently broke up with her boy friend and was suffering in pain that I could see when I met her while she had come to meet my daughter, but was surprised that her parents could not see. So I asked my daughter if evry thing was fine with my Pakistani-American froeind`s daughter. I think this filter that gets put, which hurts and destroys communication between father and daughters among Pakistani Americans and their daughters. It is almost schiczophrenic, completely two different personalities.

I am not implying that such problem does not exist in India, but I know it does not exist among Indo-American friends that I have here, including Muslim Indian friends that I have. One of the Muslim Indian friends is from a very famous Indian family, are openly orthodox shia muslim. Brought up their daughter as very traditional muslim. Even went to India found a groom, a wonderful boy, and got her married while she was 19 or 20. Both parents have studied at Oxford. Their fathers have studied at Oxford. The wife is a very successful high tech entreprenuer. Husband is a successful venture capitalist. This Muslim Indian couple have brought their daughter with the same traditional consistency, in such a way that their daughter behaves consistently, I know it because she is also my daughters friend.

Anil

Anil

Dear Azra,

There are some very strong moments in this article. A convincing argument.

Perhaps we should just fight to be treated with the respect and dignity that all human beings should be. Unfortunately, a society calls its most marginalized citizens deities when they have debased them past all limits of decency.

Being a human being should be enough.

best,

S.

Kalpana and Azra

…women are at the bottom of the totem pole in desilands

…empowerment is the only game… a long term project and outlook is needed to turn the tables…something along the lines of micro-financed projects like the grameen bank and a mix of poverty alleviation projects

there is a fellow in karachi who was here in TO recently collecting donations for a project in karachi…his charity or foundation pays the young street beggars Rs.20 per day to get them off the streets and into the make-shift school room…

economic empowerment is the best hope for the women…the desi male’s (of which i am one) mentality is suspect, corrupt and vested and needs to be prodded sufficiently and intermittently to provide this empowerment

lve

t

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Re: # 14

Dear Mr. Beej:

It is pretty obvious around here that the `bandwagon` is enticing enough for people to jump onto. Say your piece in a few sentences -- and do not give a damn about how it is said.

And please do not worry about my ``delicate sensibilities``. I am rather proud of them. And I do not need you or anyone else to tell me what issues I must write on. The evidence is there for all to see.

I am sure ``standing by your baby`` is a matter of great honour for you...now if only you did not try and explain what it meant...for you have revealed how the heck you feel about it by making the following statement: ``The matters of “taste” are highly subjective – I’m sure if you ask Ms. Sonia Naz – she will fully agree that her sense of “taste” underwent a “paradigm-shift” as soon as she received her mouthful!``

Wish you would put your janitor-lion efforts to better use rather than merely to get all hot and bothered about a comment. Your reaction to my civil response is rather revealing. Please flash your patronising sword at others who get taken in by a bit of rhyme -- I am not biting.

And yes, I do not intend indulging in this discussion on your poem any further. And since I stand by all my comments made in post #9, I have said my piece on the piece too.

Best wishes,
FV