W(h)ither BJP?

Re: # 65

Jang,

Are you serious? When do they ask it? I really do not recall reading that question.
Is that asked when you are becoming citizen or you want to obtain visa?

Re: # 56 DM
//.... If an NRI, then India is more of Farzana`s country than yours....//

Well, that depends .... farzana is a communalist - so if we have an NRI who has invested millions in Indian market and then we have avowed communalist - then it`s a no brainer.....

As far Indians are concerned, they will take the NRI with his millions any day over this communalist freak....

Re: # 63 DM
//....why this allergic reaction to the mention of muslim identity?....//

You tell me - How do you feel when RSS freaks start their monkey-dance with ``Hindu identity``, ``Hindu culture`` bullsh!t?..... Does that make you feel good ... or do you smell a rat?....Well - those who understand the motivations , do smell a rat....

Same thing with this so called ``Muslim identity`` - it`s a dangerous political game of polarisation.... it has nothing to do with muslim identities [mark the plural] or their unique culture and practices ... It has nothing to do with ``unity in diversity`` ....

++++

//...All I can say is that such absurdity is possible only in India. ..//

No - it`s no ``absurdity``.... It`s the ``natural`` consequence of commie sponsored Identity Politics in India....

US immigration service asks that immigrants declare themselves to be NOT commies, prostitutes or pimps. (only thing that comes close is pakistni requirement declaring ahmedis to be non-muslims). in other words, commies are grouped with prostitutes and pimps.

Ajeya:

Arrey yaar, who is asking you to take me seriously? By all means don`t if it makes you feel better. If Modi`s being declared an unwelcome person in Europe and America does not make him suspect in your eyes, none of his speeches will. I don`t think that he is so stupid as to have publicly called for the killing and rape of muslims.

As for Farzana Versey, she has responded to charges of treason before and can do so again, if she likes. All I would say to you is to distinguish between anti-establishment and anti-national.

You can click on the following url to see who I would have voted for in the last election, btw my predictions made there have mostly come true:http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003195&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

I am surprised at the strong reaction to my mention of muslim identity/identities. We all seem to take pride in the cliché that India is a land of unity in diversity, then why this allergic reaction to the mention of muslim identity? Isn`t that identity a part of the composite Indian identity?

Mind you that nowhere did I say that Muslims need to be given a special status; I have indeed argued consistently, without any support from my Muslim friends, that the special status given to Muslims and other religious minorities in the Indian constitution is at the root cause of the rise of hindu nationalism. It is indeed an irony of India that those who support special status, haj subsidies, madrassas, etc. are considered progressives and secular in India while those who want to end these and treat all Indians as equal are labelled hindu fanatics. All I can say is that such absurdity is possible only in India.


harimou:
Thanks for that informative post; it is quite consistent with my understanding of the situation.

Re: #56 by dost-mittar


[This is an opinion piece based on what I have been reading (and not saving in a file, except on the ``hard disc`` over my shoulders, which is getting floppier by the day). If it were an academic piece, I would have posted it under ``University Avenue`` instead of ``Civic Centre`` of chowk. ]

dost-mitter,

This is a cop-out, I`m afraid.

All of us come across pieces of information by various means, and build up our views about different things from that. A lot of times we do not remember what the exact source of our ``impression`` was.

That is perfectly reasonable.

What is not reasonable is the fact that you are WRITING AN ARTICLE and DEBATING other people. Just because you are writing an article on ``civic Centre`` does not mean that you can write something based on gut-feel and not solid research. If this article was about tooth fairies, few people would have cared about facts. But you are making statements about things that are very material, and touch the lives of many people in a very personal way.

Also, you cannot ARGUE based on your FEELINGS. It has to be more substantial than that, I`m afraid, if you want to be considered as someone who should be taken seriously.

Isn`t this ``hard disc/floppy`` excuse a little bit too convenient?




[But I can answer one of your questions without doing extensive searches. I did not vote for any party since I do not live in the country. ]

Okay then. Tell us who you WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR IF you were in India.




[BTW. do you live in India or are an NRI like me? If an NRI, then India is more of Farzana`s country than yours. ]


Dost-mitter, I would strongly urge you (in a VERY polite manner, of course), to think a little bit before you voice your opinions. Or at least, give us a REASON for your opinions.

I think that after some reflection you would agree with me that this statement is eminently asinine (also, I think she can defend herself).

MY basis for asking her to leave the country was that she is anti-national.

Are you saying that:

a) She IS NOT anti-national, and ALSO lives in India - therefore she is more Indian than me,

or,

b) She IS anti-national, but BECAUSE she lives in India - therefore she is more Indian than me.


If it is a), then of course my response would be that Indianness has little to do with my NRI status - for example Americans working in Saudi Arabia consider themselves no less American than those living in America.

If it is b) then I would have to say that it`s no point discussing ANYTHING with you.


In any case, LET ME KNOW (since YOU are the one that started this particular thread of argument about this female) what your reason was for making this statement.

Dost-Mittar,

From CPUSA`s own pages:

Was the CPUSA Ever Banned by the U.S. Government?

The answer is both yes and no. The CP was never banned as a political party in name by the US government. However, the CP has had its leaders sent to prison for long terms for teaching Marxism-Leninism, has been declared illegal in more than a few states, and has been the target of numerous forms of official and unofficial government repression.

Shortly after its founding in 1919, the CP was the target of the so-called ``Palmer Raids`` which arrested and deported many foreign-born radicals. J. Edgar Hoover got his start as a Justice Department official helping to direct these raids, which resulted in the deportation of several thousand foreign-born radicals, including members of the CP.

In the 30s, Communists were the targets of many forms of repression, both as Communists and as key organizers of industrial unions. In Detroit, Chicago, San Francisco, and many other cities, Communists were killed by police forces trying to prevent union organization and public demonstrations.

During this period, the House of Representatives set up a committee named after its first chairman, Martin Dies, which ``investigated`` radical activity. This committee later became the House Un-American Activities Committee, responsible for many of the anti-communist witch-hunts of the late 40s and 50s.

In 1948, the top leadership of the CP was arrested under the Smith Act. It was charged with trying to overthrow the US government by force and violence. Later, many other national and state Party leaders were arrested and charged.

In none of these cases was any criminal activity ever an issue, none of them were every charged with engaging in any activity of force or violence; only with teaching Marxism-Leninism. Some of the national leaders spent 4 years in prison, several who went underground spent 8 years in prison, when they turned themselves in after the others were finally released.

Eventually, after long legal and political struggles, the Supreme Court invalidated key sections of the Smith Act as unconstitutional. After long struggles for democratic rights, waged in many cases by the Party and a few supporters, portions of the McCarren Act were also declared unconstitutional.

Other struggles were over various so-called ``loyalty oaths`` for jobs, for union membership in some unions, and for running for office in some states. Eventually most of these were dropped, invalidated by courts, or simply ignored.

Nonetheless, in some states, for example Washington State, there remain unenforced laws on the books, which make it illegal to be a member of the CP, subject to heavy fines and imprisonment.

In the 1950s, a government program was set up by the FBI named COINTELPRO. Its assignment was to conduct spying on the legal activities of Communists, and to use subterfuge and lying to split the CP.

Mr DM:

So you say indian muslims have a `distinct identity` and it has to be protected. well lets agree to it for a moment.

When you last time came to india , how many identities you saw here? every state , city has its own identity. So like indian muslims these people have a right to preserve their identity.

Like say mumbai had a disntict identity, culture, language from bihar/up. But overtime this idetity of mumbai is getting increasingly diluted because of influx.

Now if some people (say Shiv Sena) want to protect it, you calll them #$% $%^** . Why?

you moron, identity is not something which can be casted in stone. It has to change with time, reflecting the changed circumstances when the old identity was formed else the people carrying that identity will decay and become a fossil.

India was identified as a land of beggars and snake charmers. Now its a land of outsourcing. Is this change in identity bad? should we just stick to that one?


The group of people being called indian muslim had some disticnt identity before they embraced islam or islam was forced on them. If they changed their identiy at that time why can`t they change it now or again in future.

want do you want ? they just mouth Urdu and carry a paandaan? If hindus can leave behind , sanskrit or the christians can leave their latin and carry on with english / hindi/french/ tamil or other languages then why can`t urdu arabic be left out from day to day life?


what kind of social scientist are you? have you heard the name evolution? change? adaptation?

one thing that sets BJP apart from other parties is their core strength, the RSS. RSS supplies BJP with disciplined cadre. the typical profile of a RSS delegated party-worker is 25-30 year old, college graduate, polite, clean-dressed with a mobile phone, and willing to work 24 hrs without question. they are typically given about Rs. 5000 as a salary, with no expectation of moolah in future. when asked what do you do as an rss graduate, the reply is ``sanghatan``..its a pithy word. basically they take a long view, politics being one part.

apparently, their ranks are decreasing, and few young are joining. i saw one shakha in action, and it was all 60+!

so, given this, BJP as we know it will likely not be there..it wont be like congress, because it does not have the ``gandhis``, wont be like regional parties. i suspect it will shrink in proportion to rss strength.

unless, something ``interesting`` happens and rss ranks start swelling again...

Re: # 56
Just because an Indian has left his country to seek a better fortune for himself and his family does not make him less indian. Many of my friends have gone to dubai to make a living and improve the standards of living for their parents and grand parents. India still belongs to them as much as to any indian hater living in India.
I am sure you have never been to gujarat either and dont know the gujarati language. It is very common in gujarati to call a muslim ``Mian bhai`` or ``Mian``.
Modi raised ire against Mushyy only after he talked about Gujarat riots in UN. He was pointing the similarity between statements of Musharaaf and Sonia Madame. He has never riled against Muslim community in Gujarat nor were his speech anti-Muslim otherwise he would be breaking the code of Electoral Commission.

By terming gujarat riots as experiment, you are implying that it was pre-planned by RSS.

#39, DM {``....This was perhaps a simplification on my part. There is perhaps no single muslim identity``}

DM Sahib,
I agree with Mohar that there really isn`t a single muslim identity, not in the world, not in Pakistan, and not in India. There are too many interpretations, sects, priorities, and other differences for there to be a monolithic Muslim identity. Of course there are cultural elements and even religious rituals, but not a common mind set. Seriously, I think that Bengali Muslims have more in common with Bengali Hindus and the same applies throughout the provinces of undivided India. I think that in today`s India, except for large metropolitan areas, there is considerable homogeneity in terms of language, food, clothing, priorities, and aspirations. The differences and attempt to accentuate identities are the work of religious zealots and religious bigots.

Ajeya:

This is an opinion piece based on what I have been reading (and not saving in a file, except on the ``hard disc`` over my shoulders, which is getting floppier by the day). If it were an academic piece, I would have posted it under ``University Avenue`` instead of ``Civic Centre`` of chowk.

But I can answer one of your questions without doing extensive searches. I did not vote for any party since I do not live in the country.

BTW. do you live in India or are an NRI like me? If an NRI, then India is more of Farzana`s country than yours.

arjun_m:
The only comparison I made was to say that the BSE is overheated now as KSE was a few months ago, and is due for a correction. And I stand by that!

#40 by satyamvada on September 27, 2005 3:18pm PT


Read that first and understand issues before spouting nonsense.


DM is too addicted to the kool-aid to do that...For example, his comparing the BSE to the joke that is the KSE...

Re: # 42
This guy is nuts, you belong to UP not here. This is an matured person thread only.

Besides, none of the examples he cited are Indian Muslim, At best they are comingled with Hindus.
Maybe Urdu script(Nastalique) is Arabic or Muslim, thats it.

#42

Isnt that a gangetic belt muslim identity? a Moplah from Kerala for instance cannot identify with that.