W(h)ither BJP?

Re: # 42 kham
//...premchand, krishan chand, rajinder singh bedi and firaq gorakhpuri. rss types called them half-muslim anyway....//

Yep. And on the otherside - we have people who call Kalam ``adha-hindu`` or even ``not-good-muslim`` ....

Just like RSS freaks who are suckers for ``Hindu Identity`` business - we have entire left-commie establishment who are suckers for ``Muslim Identity`` business....They have designed the straight-jackets - good hindu jacket and good muslim jacket. Everybody needs to fit into their designs and definitions....

#46 Ajeya

I do not agree with Farzana`s victim complex or belief that BJP is bad, bad, bad and someone else (Mulayam, Lalloo??) is good, good, good. At the same time, I have to say that RSS has not updated its vision of bharat/india (our nations official name) for the 21st century.

Why not take a look at the RSS web site (http://www.rss.org)?

It`s a pretty good site and pretty clear about RSS ideology. I would have to say that overall it is pretty narrow minded. It is quite similar to the ideology of the Catholic church or other ultra-conservative groups in the west. For the RSS, hindu kings are intrinsically better than muslim kings. Akbar is a cunning person who caused traitorous hindus to serve him. Sikhs are important because they were ``sword arm`` of hinduism and not because Nanak preached equality of all and rejected many traditional rituals. The site has no reference to personalities such as Kabir, Raidas. etc. who have acted as connection points between hindus and muslims and espouse an egalitarian social order.

I agree with you that indian liberals and islamists are combining to potray the RSS as some kind of nazi organization. This is deeply stupid and false: the quotes from the 30s approving of Hitler etc. come well before the holocaust and from a time when 75% of Western world admired such dictators. This also cunningly plays into western perceptions of asians as naturally authoritarian and violence-prone. We should reject this potrayal while at the same time demanding more transparency, scholarship and pro-activeness against caste from the RSS.

Re: # 48

``A party is merely a vehicle for channeling people`s sentiments. If the BJP disappears today, the people who are in it will find a place in other parties, most likely the Congress. They may even capture the Congress party which already has many like-minded people in it. ``

Like in USA when southern Democrats like Strom Thurmond started becoming Republicans.

Re: # 47 DM

Urdu, Kathak, Tabla is indian muslim Identity? Really? Well - I am not sure how many muslims in tamilnad, orissa, bengal speak urdu or dance kathak or play tabla.....But I am not going to get into this idiotic ``identity`` business....

That was my point to begin with....Fixing identities on an ancient people spread over diverse landscape is futile and dangerous.... Apparently - you didn`t read my post....

+++

//...The undisputed Indian muslim nationalist, Rafique Zakaria said that Kalam was a good Indian but cannot be called a good muslim...//

That further proves my point.... Even good people have swallowed this leftist promoted ``muslims identity`` bullsh!t, hook, line and sinker..... so much so that a person of Kalam`s calibre is NOT considered a good muslim..... Why is Kalam not a good muslim? I mean - if a person of kalam`s caliber is not a good muslim - then WHO is a good muslim? ..... and moreover, who the f*** decides who is a good muslim? Zakaria? .... There are people who consider Zakaria as not a good muslim? what happens then?....

I mean that`s what RSS does - doesn`t it? Issue fatwas on good hindu/bad hindu, good culture/bad culture[valentine`s day] ?.....Then why the f*** are the leftists dabbling in this ``good muslim/bad muslim`` business?.....

And morevoer - Why the f*** are you defending this bullsh!t?

Dear Farzana#43:

``The slogan that did it was not `pseudo-secularism`; it was `mandir waheen banayenge`.``

It was what we social scientists call a multi-variate phenomenon in which shah bano, mandal, mandir, ramayana serial and other factors all contributed to a resurgent hindu nationalism. It is almost impossible to say which was the most significant variable in all this.

``I think Mahatma Gandhi and Tilak had already added a religious flavour to Indian politics.``

Gandhi did introduce religion into politics and may have indirectly contributed to their communalisation, but he cannot be said to have ``succeeded`` in doing so; indeed, it was a failure of what he wanted to achieve. ML, on the other hand, like Advani, succeeded in what it wanted, namely a polarisation of the country along hindu-muslim lines.

``What happened to Sikander Bakht?``

His was a remarkable story. I remember when he married Raj Sharma and had to face the wrath of Jan Sanghis who accused him of ``kidnapping`` her. I think that, with his antics and assumption of indispensability, his antics were tolerated by the BJP leadership precisely because he was a Muslim. He did get a very lucrative cabinet post and was offered a governorship even after he fell from grace.

``The BJP will never become moderate. Iss baat par hum atal hai... ``

BJP or a similar party is a necessity. A party is merely a vehicle for channeling people`s sentiments. If the BJP disappears today, the people who are in it will find a place in other parties, most likely the Congress. They may even capture the Congress party which already has many like-minded people in it. Remember that the rank and file membership of the Party would have preferred Patel to Nehru even before the partition.

mohar11#41:

I think that khamkhwa has answered your question about the distinctiveness of IM identity, although he is somewhat misinformed about the kathak part. You ask a good question as to who represents Indian Muslims? One can ask a similar question about hindus, sikhs or christians. However, if you go back to the time when Kalam`s name was mentioned for nomination, there was hardly any muslim chowkie, even ardent nationalist like nasah, who supported his nomination. The undisputed Indian muslim nationalist, Rafique Zakaria said that Kalam was a good Indian but cannot be called a good muslim. In fact, I do not remember any muslim opinion columnist supporting his nomination as a muslim candidate; most criticised him for accepting nomination of a party associated with the Gujarat riots.

khamkwa#42:
[token Pakistani participant:)]

Thanks for answering the question re. IM distinctiveness. My only complaint is that, among hindus, you ignored my urdu teacher, Prof. Tilok Chand Mehroom and his son, Jagan Nath Azaad who, according to Manto, wrote the first national anthem of Pakistan.

Re: #30 by dost-mittar


[Appointment of Kalam - in my opinion India`s best ever President - or Naqvi are correctly perceived as an act to placate Muslim sentiments. BTW neither of them represents Indian Muslim identity or even claim to represent Indian Muslims.]


You`re dead wrong.

Motives might be debated, but what is UNDENIABLE is that appointing someone to the post of President is a symbolic gesture that raises the prestige of the entire Muslim community, AND MAKES A VERY PUBLIC STATEMENT ABOUT THEIR STATUS IN THE SOCIETY.



[But it is more than a matter of appointing a Muslim or two in important positions, the Party has to purge itself of the openly anti-muslim elements if it wants to have credibility among Muslims. ]

1) WHICH openly anti-Muslim elements? PLEASE name names.
2) What is your definition of anti-Muslim?
3) Also kindly include the reasons WHY you think they are anti-Muslim.



[I am sorry that I do not have access to any other sources than news reporters or NGOs who have have gone to the spot and studied the situation.]

For every reporter you cite, I can find one that said the opposite.

If you are not biased, then how are you so sure? Could you explain?





[But I am aware that the Modi government has been repeatedly chastised by the Supreme Court for its attempts to cover up the prosecution of the accused in the Gujarat riots. ]

Could you give references?


[The Congress role was every bit as reprehensible as that of the Modi government. ]

Did you vote in the last elections? Who did you vote for? Pro-BJP or pro-Congress?

(You can tell us because you are anonymous here, and neither party is going to send goons after you)



[3) Could you quote some of the ``extremist views`` that Modi has propounded?``

I am not privy to any private statements of Modi, except those he has frequently made calling all Muslims ``mian musharraf`` insinuating that they are traitors. ]

I am very happy that you gave a somewhat concrete example.

Could you kindly give me the full quote?

Re: #34 by contra

[re:#21
to ajeya
your questions are so ridiculous and insanely stupid that i don`t feel like answering them ]


The questions were directed at dost-mitter, fu ckhead.

Re: #43 by Islamic Traitor


[The BJP can never have the `national` appeal it so craves. Forget Muslims, where are the Christian and Parsi supporters? ]

The BJP has learnt the painful lesson of what happens when they abandon their base. They have realized that they do not need Islamic votes to win elections.

Also, the BJP lost primarily because of two states - AP and TN. Both for reasons that had NOTHING to do with Muslims.



Get out of my country.

Dear dost-mittarji:

While I agree with the gist of what you are saying, I am not too sure that the withering is due to fissures. This is a good ruse for them to obfuscate the more important issue -- that, as of now, the Indian electorate is not buying whatever it is they are trying to sell.

[Advani is no ordinary political leader. He is someone who changed the political landscape of the country. With a slogan of “pseudo-secularism”, he caught the imagination of the educated Hindu elite and communalised Indian politics in a way that only Muslim League had been able to do in pre-partition India.]

The slogan that did it was not `pseudo-secularism`; it was `mandir waheen banayenge`.

I am afraid you cannot compare this with the Muslim League position pre-Partition. The people then were under foreign rule and there was a reason to capture their imagination. Where is the need for it now? Besides, I do not think it was only the ML that should be blamed for communalising Indian politics then -- the great IMs were with the Congress. I think Mahatma Gandhi and Tilak had already added a religious flavour to Indian politics.

[It was this dedication and commitment which made a political pariah, Jana Sangh, acceptable as a partner to the likes of Jai Prakash Narain, George Fernandez and Morarji Desai after the Emergency in 1977.]

No, it was political expediency and their own battles with Mrs. G. (Refer to JP`s famous letter addressed to her.)

[Many ambitious politicians hitched their fortunes to that of the rising party, including some Muslims. ]

Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi? What happened to Sikander Bakht? The BJP can never have the `national` appeal it so craves. Forget Muslims, where are the Christian and Parsi supporters?

[The more Vajpayee became popular with the moderate elements of the Indian polity, the more unacceptable he became to the RSS leadership. ]

This is my old theory. Vajpayee is not really a moderate; he is the `mukhota` that is being paraded around in case they need to swing both ways.

The BJP will never become moderate. Iss baat par hum atal hai...

Regards,
Farzana

PS: For some of the other interactors here who have been talking about there not being a single Muslim identity, why do they not agree when I say so? Who are they to decide who is a `moderate` and `acceptable` Muslim?

Re: # 40
What distinct language ? What literature - can you name any distinctively muslim literature ?What artistic expression ? dance , music - what is so distinctively muslim ?

1. Urdu.
2. Entire urdu prose and poetry sans premchand, krishan chand, rajinder singh bedi and firaq gorakhpuri. rss types called them half-muslim anyway.
3. Dance = Kathak
4. Music = Khayal Gayeki
5. Music = Tabls, Sur Bahar and Sitar
6. Distinctly Muslim... Turki topi, lota, Pandaan and Burqa...;)

Re: # 39 DM
//....This was perhaps a simplification on my part. There is perhaps no single muslim identity ...//

It`s more than just a ``simplification``.... It has been a long running deliberate attempt on part of lefties and commies to manufature a ``single muslim identity``....And the consequences of such m0r0nic policy has been utterly disastrous....

There is no single muslim identity - just like there is no single hindu identity - any such single identity is impossible in an ancient society spread over a diverse landscape....Any attempt to create such an identity is futile and dangerous...This is exactly what RSS has been trying to do and we all know where that has led to....

Lefties condemn such attempt on part of RSS and rightly so....But the same leftist and commie have been hell-bent on creating one for the muslims right from the beginning....right from the day one of independent india.... They have created this big mythology around ``Indian Muslim Identity`` which has to be ``protected``...Not only have they create the identity out of thin air - they also have decided who represent that mythical identity...In their infinite wisodm - commies have decide that that mullahs are the ones who represent the muslim identity......And they have been pandering to the mullahs in name of ``protecting`` muslim identity...

Who says Kalam and Naqvi DO NOT represent Indian muslims..... If they don`t represent muslims - then who does? That mothf**er Jama Masjid mullah Bukhari?

dost mitter said:
but I was thinking of North Indian Muslim identity, which centres around a distinct language, literature, culture, artistic expression, music, etc

huh ?
What distinct language ? urdu eh ?
What literature - can you name any distinctively muslim literature ?
What artistic expression ? dance , music - what is so distinctively muslim ?

You are not ``thinking`` - you just mouth off liike a dhimmi wanting to please his master.

Also you weaseled out of answering Ajeyas questions. One of the recent India-Today
issues had details on how Modi acted. Read that first and understand issues before
spouting nonsense.

mohar11:

``What exactly is ``Indian Muslim Identity``?``

This was perhaps a simplification on my part. There is perhaps no single muslim identity but I was thinking of North Indian Muslim identity, which centres around a distinct language, literature, culture, artistic expression, music, etc.

Re: # 32
I don`t know which world you are in.
Gora Log do bitch and are can be racist but without these gor logs where would you be?
No Internet no IT boom in India, no US education for you. nothing.

Re: # 33 DM
//....I think that it was Mahatma Gandhi who wanted to dismantle Congress; .....Nehru....was merely saddled with something that Gandhi started...//

you are right - it was Gandhi who wanted to dismantle Congress - the old fool had some good ideas, after all..... And I agree that MK Gandhi was no democrat.... I mean, that`s what happens to people when they get crowned with big titles like ``Mahatma``.... they think they are some kind of prophets who are always right....

But I don`t agree with your ``saddling`` theory - or as I call it the ``devil-made-me-do-it`` theory.... Nehru had a choice - he could have done things differently - he ruled for a long time and gandhi was long dead....