Language of Power: How it is getting more exclusive

Just to give people an example... in the court of law ... pleadings/conveyancing can be filed in both Urdu and English...

Here is an Urdu version :


Munkay Umair Raja vald

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Sakna Toronto Canada ka hoon. Kuch arsa say Maqar ki tabiat nasaz rehti hai. Maqar ka dimaghi tawazan theek nahin rehta - allawa azeen pechas bhee lagay huin hain, jis khatir bawla bhee ho giya hoon, lihaza ba hosh or hawas, bila khatir kay maqar eik dimaghi mareez hai, mein ally ko mukhtar-e-aam muqarar karta hoon- takay maqar kay tamam karobar ki dekbhal karay aur jo sub kuch bun paye wo kare, wakil kay akhrajat deway aur jo huchukay karaway.

Lihaza yeh mukhtar nama tehreer kardiya takay sanad rahay.

Gawah shud Al Abd Gawah shud


Morkah...

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Oh great Urdu lovers please translate the above mentioned.

Re: # 26
Manto Ji.. I know that the NIC (for those living in Pakistan) doesn’t list one’s religion, but it used to be of different color for minorities (I happened to carry one, until I ran into a monkey with his tail lifted upward – yeah, you guessed it right, I shoved my card up where it rightfully belonged). Color speaks louder than the words.

India has over 50 national languages. Pakistan can easily do that. The best way to resolve the linguistic issues of Pakistan are to break the problem into smaller components – i.e., let each Province decide for itself what it wants (in doing so, Urud speakers should not be represented, as it is not the language of any of the provinces).

Ally #28: ``Example, A dhoti clad Punjabi cloth merchant from Faisalabad, discussing the transportation of his cloth to Karachi with a turbaned Baluchi truck driver from Zhob, what language do you think they will converse in???``

This is a very good example.........

Urdu, is now, a big uniting factor in Pakistan. And not a dividing one. It has been accepted, voluntarily, by the common Pakistani, as the language of communication and commerce. The reason it has been accepted is because it came in from the outside. Statistically speaking, Punjabi should have been the national langauge, since nearly 2 out of 3 Pakistanis, speaks Punjabi or its dialect. But no smaller province would have accepted Punjabi.

Nearly everyone in Pakistan, wants their kid to learn Urdu. Because it makes life much easier for them. Imagine a Pakistan, where one could not communicate with people across the provincial boundaries. It would have created far more problems. Having one common voluntarily accepted national language is a great asset. Just look at the problems Canada is having with French and English........

If Pakistan wants English to be that one common factor, then that is fine also. It should have been declared the national language, and everyone should have pursued it. However, its a bit too late to do that now. English is so different in grammar and text and script and wordage from local Pakistani languages that it would be very difficult for illiterate individuals to speak and understand it..........

I can understand someone making an argument in favor of local languages over Urdu. Though I would disagree with it. However, why anyone would want to use a foreign language in place of one`s national language, without declaring that foreign language to be the national language, is beyond me.........

One only needs to talk with Pakistanis who cannot speak English (the non-Westernised 90% Pakistanis) and see how frustrated they are with having a social divide based on the English language, forced upon them. I doubt too many of them would prefer English over Urdu, as far as a national language.

Then again, perhaps, it makes sense for Pakistani leaders to speak in languages that hardly any of their countrymen can comprehend. Based on that, I suggest they switch to French, instead of English. It is, after all, a language of the UN also. And even fewer Pakistanis can understand it than English. And that would really put everyone in Pakistan on equal footing. It would get rid of the English/Urdu divide also, along with the Punjabi/Sindhi/Pushto divide etc.........

[ This is why it is unfortunate that the Urdu-speaking lobby prevailed on Jinnah to declare Urdu as the national language.]

...that is one bare faced lie if there was one...since when jinnah could be prevailed upon on something he was naturally against?... and that too by those UP walas whom jinnah tolerated but never liked...for that matter jinnah never liked anyone but himself but that`s another story...yassir you are becoming good at lying... i see a good future for you as a liar errr lawyer...

Re: # 15

Dear Romair,

Thank you for a response.

You assert that [When one is representing one`s country, in a leadership position, one should always speak in the national language. One speaks as a representative one`s own countrymen. And their understanding is the most important. Everyone else can listen to a translation.] I would tend to agree with you if the media conversation is happening in one`s own country with the local media. However, if the purpose is to educate the masses of the west, then Romair, I am sorry the language is English. And they must learn how to speak in a soft tone, and not be haughty.

You ask [What exactly is a,``modern day enlightened group?``] Go to any social group and you will realize how to be genteel. No more loudness and vulgarity accepted. Besides, as usual, please do not take my response out of context to your previous post (#12) where you claimed that vulgarity is the added flavor of any language.

Your querry...[How can one apply for a membership in this group? And who decides who is enlightened and who is not..........`` ] You have to grow up a little bit to figure that one out.

Your love for Urdu is admirable, and I respect that. Actually, being an Iranian blood, I always consider Persian to have history and flavor. But, unfortunately for some, the world has moved on to English. And we have to live with that.

You accept that [English prose can be very powerful. But prose is more dependent on the thought process of the writer.] Ok. Let me ask you this then, when was the last time you heard politicians speak in poetry on national issues?

Romair, create love in your life and you will see miracles happening.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Ally ...

Romair`s post 27 is most naive post that I have come across on Chowk and he has managed to match up all his previous comments...

Let me frame the issues:

1) Are we debating State/Official Language or National Language? If state language is what we are discussing then it is an issue that should be judged on merit... and by careful planning... and not on emotionalism. Remember even Jinnah spoke of state language not national language. In my opinion, and you can disagree, Urdu has proved quite inadequate in the courts of law and administration.

2) If we are discussing the National language: then I would personally want Urdu... but the fact is that Sindhis and the Baloch (believe it or not the plural of Baloch is Baloch) are NOT ready to accept Urdu as the national language. So what are you going to do?

3) If there is no consensus on National language and if Urdu has failed despite article 251 of the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Pakistani leader`s choice of language becomes inconsequential... a complete non-issue.

4) That Romair is a hypocrite who writes 5000 words on how religion/secularism issue divides Pakistan but is so narrowminded about accepting the one issue that has in the past actually divided the country.

i think it is inaccurate to say that everyone in pakistan understands urdu. it is yet another sweeping generalization.

ally:

okay, so precedence should not be given to english over urdu in our own country. obviously one has to think of what audience a person is trying to reach. a political leader, or someone cannot be addressing a group of people who don`t understand english. our leaders should address ``the people`` in a language that all can understand, if all are to participate. if urdu is what brings different language groups together, then so be it. that makes sense in a perfect world where everyone understands urdu as well.

i don`t like the word precedence personally because giving one language precedence over another has been a reason why some of us in pakistan did/do not study the languages of our elders in the educational system. if urdu can be taught in schools then why not punjabi, or others like sindhi, which the sindhis fought for. the languages of our elders is not urdu per se.

english still remains a universal language in terms of business, in terms of diplomacy, and it follows that either pakistani leaders have a good command of the english language in order to communicate, or if not, then their own, whatever that is. but that they not present themselves as ``maajhay da Dangar.`` musharraf has come close to that himself on more than one occasion.

as a multilingual speaker, and on my way to becoming a linguist, i cringe when we are as nationalistic about our languages as we are about our country. language is a constantly changing thing, and languages adopt to technological advances and all that. but i also feel that when we speak of our love for our own language, that we not make such sweeping assertions (and few are immune to that here) as to which language is superior. there really is no such thing as one language being superior to another.

Romair #27

my point exactly, thats what i have been trying to explain to Manto in post #28 and #22

A

National vs State language

Because... Ally Pakistan is a federation under a federal constitution and a Sindhi or a Balochi is not very happy to accept Urdu as the national language. I think we have had too much heartbreak to even attempt to restart that issue... Neither English nor Urdu can be the sole national language of Pakistan ... this is not what I say... this is what the people of Sindh and Balochistan say... however it is constitutionally mandated as such so Romair`s only case is through Article 251 of the constitution which has never completely been implemented... it must be remembered that Romair is against the Constitution of Pakistan...

I love Urdu more than the next guy but I love Pakistan more... but to make it the single national language has proved disastrous in the past... (infact I stand corrected- Jinnah`s position was that Urdu was to be the state language not the national language- even that has not happened or can`t happen).... it is an unnecessary debate ... unnecessary because it is the single most divisive issue (more than religion/secularism-which romair claims but which one does not really see) for Pakistan today.

Look at India... it has DONE well without ever officially imposing Hindi... despite the constitutional provision.

atif2 #19: `` am of this opinion that grammar, vocabulary or writing style are really just the mechanical aspects of a language. Putting ``meanings`` in writing is an entirely different matter.``

You are quite correct. The main part of any poetry or prose is the imagination of the individual writing it. But, certain languages do give one a lot of flexibility in the way they can be structured. English, in that regard, is very limited. And hence makes poetry quite difficult. There are very few extensions and changes one can bring into English words, without adding extra words.

While Urdu allows all kinds of extensions, chains, changes, alterations of words, thereby, making poetry quite a bit easier. The same verse can be cut down to half its size by chaining. One does not need to use unnecessary prepositions, in Urdu.

In prose, prepositions, chains, prefixes and suffixes are not as important, hence English comes out as an equally, ``easy`` language........

Manto

Leaders have to speak to their ppl, and right now the only language in our country that is understood widely (maybe not spoken or written) is Urdu and NOT English. A Sindhi villager will understand Musharaf more if Mush spoke in Urdu than English. This is due to the fact the Urdu is more closely related to Sindhi than is English, and there are many overlaps, thus helping the Sindhi only speaker to understand more. Apart from this, the Sindhi villager has probably seen many Hindi/Urdu movies and probably sings their songs while working in the fields. Urdu in Pakistan, is more widely understood than English, and that is a fact.

Pakistan may have many languages, why should that stop anything or anyone taking pride and valuing our national language. But just as i value Urdu, i value my mother tongue Punjabi too, and respect the mother tongues of other Pakistanis. Urdu is the language that brings all Pakistanis together, it saves us time because we dont have to learn the other major Pakistani languages to communicate with those who do not speak our language.

Example, A dhoti clad Punjabi cloth merchant from Faisalabad, discussing the transportation of his cloth to Karachi with a turbaned Baluchi truck driver from Zhob, what language do you think they will converse in???

English is no where near that.

ally#: leaders should always speak in the national language. Whatever that language may be. If it is Swahili, then they should speak Swahili. It is quite ridiculous to make speeches in the national language of another country. How many other countries do that? It is nothing more than a sign of an inferiority complex. A huge one, at that.......

If people want national leaders to speak in English, then they should declare English the national language. And then speak in it, all they want.

Everyone in Pakistan understands Urdu. They learn in voluntarily. Hardly anyone considers it being imposed on them. It is, infact, a uniting factor in Pakistan, now. Hardly anyone understands English. One would have to step outside the elitist parts of Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad to realize that. If Musharraf is making a speech at the UN, and 90% of his own countrymen cannot understand it, then what is the point.

Such elitism in Pakistan is disgusting, at least, in my opinion. The voice of 90% or more of the population is never heard. Not because they are not intelligent. But because they cannot speak English. One can understand that being bi-lingual in any country, should give one an advantage in the job field. But why should it give anyone an advantage socially?

Why is their a fake hierarchy based on knowledge of a foreign language? How many other countries have such a hierarchy? I meet Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, French, etc. daily, who cannot speak a word of English. Their countries seem to be doing fine.

The attempt to keep English as a social pedestal is nothing more than an attempt to keep the society divided, between haves and have-nots. For example, Chowk`s whole tone and content would be different, if everyone had access to it, i.e. Urdu font was available and poor people in Pakistan had access to the Internet. Then one would see the views of the real Pakistan. But now it is simply a place for rich Westernised English speaking folks.........

This is not to say that people should discard English. It should be learned, because it is the language of the world and of technology. One should try to master it. But it is not the language of Pakistan. It is not the naitonal language. It is not what people in Pakistan understand.

So, either declare English to be the national language, or on all naitonal issues, speeches etc., speak in Urdu..............

Excuse me.... The National Identity Card DOES NOT contain religion column... the passport does....

Mother tongue and Religion are listed in the Computer Data that is available when your number is entered onto the computer screen. If you have a computerised NIC which is the only acceptable NIC ... then you would have had to list your national language on the form.

What do you expect? Urdu? English ruled the world. Naturally, their language became the lingua franca of the globe. Its as simple as that.

Re: # 23

Manto Sahib. How about making Arbi our national language? Instead of teaching kids the Quran, they should be taught Arabic language, so they can learn Quran on their own (if they want to). There are many advantages to making Arbi our national language. Firstly, it will raise the per capita IQ of the Arabic speaking world by at least 10 fold, and secondly, we will have huge amount of oil coming out of our national tunnel.

Manto Sahib, I also carry a National ID card, it lists my religion, but not my language. Did you pay extra money to get your language listed? I am talking about the card itself, and not the Form Bay or Form Noon Ghunaa.

Regards.