Language of Power: How it is getting more exclusive

#106 by Romair on October 4, 2005 8:39am PT


As an example, imagine if Chowk was in Japanese. Pakistanis, like myself and others, would have so many ideas about Pakistan, they would like to express, but they could not, because they did not know Japanese. Wouldn`t that be frustrating.


Going by your track record of bloopers, chowk being in japanese would actually be good for your credibility.....

faisaluno #108: ``also why such a critical question is not debated either in the media or on this website``

The reason it does not get debated is because the people who have the power to initiate the debate are, themselves, the biggest benificaries of this linguistic divide. It would be the equivalent of the feudals initiating a debate on land reform in the National Assembly. Or the maulvis initiating a debate on the lack of a theocracy in Islam. Or the military Generals intiating a debate on the pros and cons of the Defence Housing Society scheme.......

Certain things are sacred cows. Specifically those which eliminate any differences between the masses and the elites............

Bi-linguilism is definitely the way to go. Infact, multi-linguilism. However, the intiation of bilinguilism should always be from the point of view of the language that most of the Pakistanis can speak, and then bringing in foreign languages, as required. Not the other way around..........A foreign language should never be a barrier of entry into any professional or social class.........Not to mention, into website, like Chowk, that discuss Pakistan.........

And Pakistani leaders should always speak in a language that their own countrymen can understand. Much like leaders of other countries............

ultimately, urdu vs. english is a meaningless debate because:

i. there is no reason why pakistanis cant be bilingual
ii. its pefectly clear that given a choice, pakistanis would select english along with urdu i.e. no one in pak is in favour of abandoning one language for the other

more important question than the medium of instruction is how to improve the quality of instruction especially in government schools. it should be fairly obvious that the public school system in its current form is not going to deliver no matter what the language of instruction is.

also why such a critical question is not debated either in the media or on this website is a good indication that english speaking pakistanis are not as smart as they pretend to be.

i am sick and tired of references being made as to how pakistan is seen from an elitist point of view here on chowk. there is a certain elitism in this very point of view itself.

just because one suggests that there not be a national language, does not make him or her an elitist. english is a part of our curriculum, our bol chaal, it was imposed, but so the hell was farsi, and urdu, by the way. and there are more than a few of us who accept all these languages as our national languages.

rather than putting down english, as being exclusive, or it being elitist because of government policies or the educational system, is it so bloody impossible to appreciate english as a means of communication. if y`all are so down on it, then why post gazillion words that don`t make much sense except to closed minds for the most part?

vaDDe aaye choohay sher de bhes vich.

Khurram #104: I agree.

And if there are successful examples of multiple countries, available, where they have been able to bring in foreign languages, and establish them, throughout the society, as the lingua franca, and have progressed, then those should be studied........

I do not know of any such examples. And if there are, then I doubt they are more than a few countries........

That may be the most efficient way to proceed. But it is a near impossible task, in my opinion. People on Chowk take it for granted, because they grew up with English in their homes. And everyone in their surroundings speaks it. They don`t realize what a huge minority, they are a part of.

If one ventures outside these environments, one realizes how much of a foreign langauge English is in Pakistan. English, in its text, script, wordage, style etc. is completely foreign. Unlike say, Persian, Urdu, Punjabi, Sariaki etc, which have commanalities. Punjabi and Urdu, for example, being strikingly similar.............

If one stops looking at Pakistan, from an exclusively elitist view, one ends up realizing how frustrating it must be for the overwhelming amount of Pakistanis, when they cannot move up, due to their lack of proficiency of a foreign language. Not because of their lack of skills. Even if proficiency of the foreign language has nothing to do with the job. What other country has such a set-up. It is the equivalent of Americans not having access to the cushy jobs in govt. and the private sector, if they do not know Portugese, or some other foreign language!!

As an example, imagine if Chowk was in Japanese. Pakistanis, like myself and others, would have so many ideas about Pakistan, they would like to express, but they could not, because they did not know Japanese. Wouldn`t that be frustrating. To see a tiny group of Pakistanis, who know Japanese, exclusively discussing Pakistan, without letting the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis have access to the discussions..

This is what it feels like for the overwhelming number of Pakistanis who cannot speak English; or cannot express themselves in English. This number is phenomenally high. The stupidest Pakistanis, in the world, can participate here, if they can speak English. But the most genius of Pakistanis cannot participate here, if they cannot articulate themselves in English.

God knows how many Pakistanis, who have far superior knowledge and ideas about Paksitan, than all of us participants here, are out of the loop, just because things aren`t accessible in the lingua franca of the country, we are discussing.

Just like the standard of discourse on Chowk would go way up, if a foreign langauge wasn`t a pre-requisite for entry, and everything was available equally in Urdu and English, similarly the standard of the rest of the Pakistani society would go up also, if an egalitarian system was set up, where knowing the lingua franca was enough to move up. Knowing English being an extra asset, but not a deciding factor. As is the case in nearly all countries in the world, which have progressed.

The only other solution is to make English the lingua franca of Pakistan. Which, at least to me, is an impossible task. Because I cannot find examples of it anywhere else. India could be one example. However, India is still in the third world, and India has no widespread established lingua franca, due to its large population..........Countries that do have one, tend to utilize it, to bring most of their populations into the mainstream..........

This, of course, does not mean English should be discarded. Much like Chowk should not switch from English to Urdu (or any other language). It just means that it should be equally accessible in both............Not making English a pre-requisite of participation. Then you would really see talented Pakistanis, from all classes, participating on this site...............

And I have a feeling, they would agree with the argument I am making. While most people on Chowk, currently, might disagree with what I am stating........

khurram: You can look at ``all the countries of the world`` and try to do what you think they are doing. Or you can use your own mind. You can take your pick.

Look at all the countries of the world. There are only 2 choices for the `national` language.
The lingua franca or the language of the colonial masters.
Pakistanis can take their pick.

behram #94: Once again, could I ask you to end your posts to me, with disrespectfully submitted. I like straightforward people, who let me know where they stand. Not individuals who are, simultaneously, disrespectful and respectful.........

I have given you all the anwers I can about English and Urdu, or any of the local languages, being better for Pakistan. That is what I have been debating from the begining. If you cannot understand it, then kindly ask exact questions. I will do my best to answer them. I will, however, once again, articulate what I have been, trying to say, regarding this issue:

Any language that levels the playing field, in terms of access to upward mobility, in Pakistan, or any country, is the language that should be encouraged, first and foremost, before any other language. This is what the successful countries in the world have done. Which is why I asked you to name ten, which had been able to adapt a language, alien in wordage, text, script etc. and had successfully introduced it into the grassroots. You obviously did not answer.

I will, however, provide you with more than ten countries, which use their lingua franca as the basis of upward mobility, and have done well: USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Japan, Korea, Spain, China, Finland, Sweden, Hong Kong, Switzerland, Belgium, Singapore, Japan, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Malaysia..........

The list goes on and on. France actually has a legislation, institutionalizing French as the only language. Other countries, like Hong Kong have both Chinese and English as the mediums of education. Switzerland uses German, French and Italian, since all three are the lingua franca. Much like Canada has French and English..........

But I cannot find any country, which has made progress (not South Asian kind of progress, but real progress like Korea and Japan), where a language, completely foreign in text, script, wordage, style, which did not grow in the local region, and is not spoken by locals, has been brought in and established as the lingua franca of the country. Which is why I have asked you to provide me with ten examples........

If it is possible to establish such a foreign language at the grassroots level, then English could be the solution. But you will have to give examples, where that is done. Pakistan has tried it, unsuccessfully for 55 years. I really don`t think it is possible. People pick up languages from their surroundings. There are barely any English speaking skills available in the average Pakistani`s surroundings......And I don`t see how they can be provided......

This would mean, that like all countries mentioned above, if Pakistan wants to bring in the whole net of its population, into the mainstream, providing them with opportunities to move up, it has to ensure that knowledge of a foreign language, is not a pre-requisite for such an endevour. It should only be a pre-requisite if the job demands it. For example, if I want to become a police officer, my knowledge of English should be neither here nor there. It should be my crime fighting skills that count. After all, I will be dealing with locals who speak Urdu, Punjabi etc. Not English. However, if I want to work for a call center, handling calls from USA, then, obviously, English should count.......

This does not mean, one should discard English. It should be studied and taught. All the countries, mentioned above, study it. Since knowing it is an asset. But it should not be the dividing pre-requisite line in the society.

Pakistan has a literacy rate of 40%. I doubt more than 1 out of 8 of these literate individuals can speak English. That means less than 5% of the population can speak relatively fluent English. Lets stretch it to 5-10%. Where does the remaining 90-95% go. They are out of the loop, in their own country, because they don`t know a foreign language!! What other coutries have such a scenario...........

It is the height of elitism............

Imagine the kind of discourse we would have on Chowk, if it was accessible to every Pakistani in English and Urdu. Then we would really see what Pakistanis think. God knows how many Ahmadmadanis there may be in Pakistan, who have so many unique ideas, but may not be masters of the English language..........

So, if English can be made the lingua franca, then go ahead with it, as the means of upward mobility. If it cannot, and there are no examples that you have provided, then go to the next language, i.e. Urdu. If that does not work, go to the local languages, Punjabi, Sindhi, etc. But the aim should always be to get the most people into the mainstream. Not to create an exclusive stream, for a small group of people.......

My solution is to make everything accessible to everyone in Urdu, first. Not Ghalib`s Urdu, but day to day Urdu. That is easy to do, and to some extent already happens. That will bring the whole population into the mainstream. It will raise the standard of everything in Pakistan, since more individuals would be competing. Much like Chowk`s standard of discourse would go way up, if non-English speaking Pakistanis (the overwhelming majority) people could access it in Urdu, also. Then make as much of it accessible in English (and any other language that helps, French, Mandarin etc.), as possible, thereby keeping Pakistan connected internationally. That is what all successful countries have done.........

Pakistan will never advance, if 90-95% of its population is left out of the loop of upward mobility........

And if you are hell-bent on Musharraf speaking in a language that most of the world can understand, then he should speak in Chinese, since Chinese speakers greatly outnumber anyone else. That would look silly. Wouldn`t it. Since you and I couldn`t understand him. About as silly as it probably seems to the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis, who cannnot understand a word of his speeches, which he is making on their behalf!!.........

Mantolives,

Do you seriously believe that #39 cannot be rendered in a simpler and clearer way in Urdu as well?

Re: # 100
Manto, being humiliated by you is an honor because you speak thru your ass my friend. Now go back to your crib little baby and suck your little finger.

The reason I know that the minority cards were a different shade of yellow (in addition to listing the religious affiliation – Islam or `Non-Muslim` (just 2 choices in your shytland as if nothing else matters) is because I carry one. All pre-92 cards were Piss color and later it chanted to Shyt color to reflect the religious affiliation of the majority of Pakistanis. Do Pakistanis a favor and don’t become a lawyer, you will bore the shyt out of judges and everyone else. Same rant over and over again. Where did you say you went to school?

Kulharee...

Tell us what new lie are you going to tell us now- oh great minority tabla player...

So is this how you deal with humiliation... by abusing others? Listen buddy its not my fault that you put up a blatant lie and were caught like fat murghi... but I called your lie... so now live with it and take it like a man or a woman... refrain from being a transvestite.

Romair, give some translation to Manto before he jumps off his crib. Give him anything, he doesn’t know shyt. He is in the same league as you are.

if i were a BIG international business, who would i hire out of the following two?

a great looking, tall Punjabi from Rawalpindi with little knowledge of English

or

a short and fat Tamil with an excellent grasp of English


if i were a man, i`d hire the Tamil, if i were a woman, i`d hire the good looking Punjabi and enroll him in ESL classes.

so the moral of the story is, Tamils are smart people but don`t judge Punjabis by their cover

What this all boils down to is literacy and agency. Yes, the more languages one knows, the better. But the particular language of agency in this case is English-and so for me, this issue becomes less the dynamic of ``MacDonaldisation``, and more an issue of how does the majority of the working force, male and female, continue to acquire skills that will allow them opportunities to work. With each technological breakthrough, new literacies have to be learned in order to be used. Just out of curiosity, did the advent of computer code come attached to notions of ``Westernization``?

This article makes some good points, but the implicit bias here obscures these ideas.

Romair, Romair, Romair

No Translation for 39 I see

Thanks for admitting that Urdu is not suitable in its current form for the working of a nation state- since an Urdudan like you was not able to translate a simple paragraph- an easier version of the Urdu used for court documents... which is why most people use English.

did i not say that someone would say we were putting words in his mouth.

``hum tau kuch keh bhi nahiN saktay.`` :))

Re: # 91 and #92

Dear Romair,

Why have such an unusual request
[Could I kindly request you to end your replies, to me, with, ``Disrespectfully Sumbitted.`` ] Why? Does it go with your other traits, when you suggested that using vulgarities is good in a language? No Romair, your double speak is exactly what you do, and you have not realized it as yet.

[Why should we agree it is English? Why not agree it is French? Or Portugese?] Because, that is what we were arguing about...English or Urdu.

Romair, you ask [There are 190 or so countries in the world. Can you name 10 (or even 5), where a language of another country, with completely different text, script and wordage than anything in the local dialects, has successfully been adapted as the lingua franca of the country.]

Great, now we are on to geography...hopefully you will not forget the main issue is whether English is good or bad for Pakistan.

Oh, yes, and you also want to know...[More importantly, how much progress have those countries made]. What you consider foreign[It is extremely difficult to get such a foreign language into the grassroots of a society], that is English, is actually not so foreign that you make it out to be. Actually, the Britishers did quite an excellent job than the subsequent rulers of divided India. Thank you.

Romair, you have some issue with your double speak. It is your thoughts that you potray in these discussion that is annoying. So far you have not been able to discuss any issue logically. You try to circumvent the main topic of discussion...whether English is better than Urdu for the future of Pakistan...

And that is what double speak means

[Please learn to discuss the point and not the person. I am not sure what, ``double-speak`` means. Is it equivalent to making disrespectful remarks about a person, and then ending the post with, ``Respectfully Submitted?`` If you are going to be disrespectful towards me, then could I request you to end your posts with, ``Disrespectfully Submitted.`` So I know where you stand.......]
No it is not the same. I still will continue to submit to you respectfully, because I think you are worthy of my respect.

[Kindly highlight where I said Urdu is better than English?] Your post #12 suggests that Urdu is superior to English, does it not? [There is nothing in English that can match Urdu`s poetry. And their is nothing in English that can match Punjabi`s humor and vulgarities. The English language, much like English food, being too bland for my taste.]

Romair, that is exactly what people who double speak, say [You seem to associate words with me, unnecessarily, and then start debating those, as if they are mine.]

[All I said was that I think Urdu is more flexible thereby, making it easier to write poetry. And due to this I found English too bland for my taste. While I found them equally solid in prose. That`s it. ]

Here you go, the actual words are shown for you to clarify, without the mumbo jumbo.

[But suppose someone does consider Urdu better than English. Is that a crime? Should he be shot? Should everyone consider Urdu inferior to English.......] No Romair, it is not a crime, and no you should not be shot. But, to make you credible, I expect you to be crisp and clear and emphatic. Please do not circle the wagon, as usual.

[There is a world outside Karachi. Even in Karachi, if an Arts Council was prospering in the 70s, what exactly does that have to do with access to English, in all of Pakistan, during the present day?] This was in response to the question of arts, and craft and drama, etc. and not to the English language per se.

[I accept the fact that any language that evens the playing field in Pakistan should be the primary language. Not any language that skews the playing field........If English can be made accessible, to everyone, only then, it should be the primary langauge......] How can you blame the language for skewing anything. It is the people, who use the language to skew the issue.

[``The only way, in my opinion, is to get rid of this notion that somehow there is a conspiracy of the English wallas vs the non-English wallas.``

Where in the world did you get the idea that there is a conspiracy? Who has this notion? Certainly not me. Kindly discuss this with someone who has this notion......]

If you did not have this thought then what is this fuss.

[I stand by the fact that anything that is only accessible to a tiny minority, should never ever be made the standard for upward mobility in a society.] A tiny minority may be home owners, so are you suggesting that should not be a standard for everyone`s upward mobility? What rubbish?

[If that cannot be done, then do not standardize on it..........] Pakistani society can provide for English for everyone, when it decides to provide education for everyone. And it makes absolutely no sense to think that implementing Urdu would be better than implementing English.
But the source of consternation between your thoughts is that somehow you think Urdu is better than English, and that is what I disagree.

[Pakistan will never prosper if the playing field isn`t even for everyone.........] Agreed, and English will bring the playing field a little closer together and to the rest of the enlightened world.

Finally, as always, to your chagrin, maybe

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband.

P.S. What does Romair mean?