Language of Power: How it is getting more exclusive

humm... if language of power does matter then it`s up to an individual to make it popular and understandable, most of us say that pakistani`s need english in order to support their ground but this is just a misconception. The fact remains that we try to be what we aren`t, from the day british rule this sub continent many of our ancesters believed that it english tht make us successful and not urdu or say hindi. it is this ideology that leads our teenager to forget their mother language.

I feel very sorry when i see two people of same nationality, of same city talking with each other not in Their mother language but in ENGLISH. those sort of people are better know as BURGER FAMILIES in Pakistan.

Interesting that with all that English, you rarely com across a Pakistani who is actually able to speak it well.

temporal … if it’s any consolation … without knowing ins and outs of the discussion, I also found the opening line of #111 to be funny. I got another kick when you reposted it. But then came honorable tahmed sahib ... anxious to deliver a deprecating sermon. You just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time … and no … it’s not your fault. It’s an old habit of Sahib, and I think it helps him deal with his moral anxieties when he runs out of prozac …

++++++++++

tahmed … you haven’t changed … what a pity …

tahmed :

bhai that sentence was intentionally or unintentionally funny...that is all:)

as i confessed in the first sentence am not following the pow-wow

mr t: i read behram`s post after reading your comment, and behram`s post makes good sense. so, perhaps it is just that you dont like his views - in which case you should say so rather than picking on a single phrase.

on a broader note, one important point that is missing in this entire discussion is that urdu simply does not have the capacity (in terms of available words) to meet the demands of today`s world. the same is true for virtually all other languages in the world today: even ``japanese`` today is full of english words that have been twisted to fit japanese way of speaking. the french try to hold on to their language and even tried legislating out use of english words in the 1960`s - and failed. For the simple reason that standard french has only 90,000 words (compared to 3 million in english!!). urdu seems to have even less (look up any urdu looghaat and see how it compares to an english dictionary).

so like it or not, the future is english. and anyone sitting abroad who claims otherwise is like the baluchi tribal leaders who send their sons to western universities while denying even elementary education to the children of their tribesmen in the name of baluch pride.

digression:

am not following this debate between you two...but something bawa-ji wrote caught my eye and made my day:

Your long drawn response not withstanding, I will, once again, try to explain your logic to you.

lol

grammatical errors in an essay on the English language! ugh!

#106 by Romair on October 4, 2005 8:39am PT


As an example, imagine if Chowk was in Japanese. Pakistanis, like myself and others, would have so many ideas about Pakistan, they would like to express, but they could not, because they did not know Japanese. Wouldn`t that be frustrating.


Going by your track record of bloopers, chowk being in japanese would actually be good for your credibility.....

faisaluno #108: ``also why such a critical question is not debated either in the media or on this website``

The reason it does not get debated is because the people who have the power to initiate the debate are, themselves, the biggest benificaries of this linguistic divide. It would be the equivalent of the feudals initiating a debate on land reform in the National Assembly. Or the maulvis initiating a debate on the lack of a theocracy in Islam. Or the military Generals intiating a debate on the pros and cons of the Defence Housing Society scheme.......

Certain things are sacred cows. Specifically those which eliminate any differences between the masses and the elites............

Bi-linguilism is definitely the way to go. Infact, multi-linguilism. However, the intiation of bilinguilism should always be from the point of view of the language that most of the Pakistanis can speak, and then bringing in foreign languages, as required. Not the other way around..........A foreign language should never be a barrier of entry into any professional or social class.........Not to mention, into website, like Chowk, that discuss Pakistan.........

And Pakistani leaders should always speak in a language that their own countrymen can understand. Much like leaders of other countries............

ultimately, urdu vs. english is a meaningless debate because:

i. there is no reason why pakistanis cant be bilingual
ii. its pefectly clear that given a choice, pakistanis would select english along with urdu i.e. no one in pak is in favour of abandoning one language for the other

more important question than the medium of instruction is how to improve the quality of instruction especially in government schools. it should be fairly obvious that the public school system in its current form is not going to deliver no matter what the language of instruction is.

also why such a critical question is not debated either in the media or on this website is a good indication that english speaking pakistanis are not as smart as they pretend to be.

i am sick and tired of references being made as to how pakistan is seen from an elitist point of view here on chowk. there is a certain elitism in this very point of view itself.

just because one suggests that there not be a national language, does not make him or her an elitist. english is a part of our curriculum, our bol chaal, it was imposed, but so the hell was farsi, and urdu, by the way. and there are more than a few of us who accept all these languages as our national languages.

rather than putting down english, as being exclusive, or it being elitist because of government policies or the educational system, is it so bloody impossible to appreciate english as a means of communication. if y`all are so down on it, then why post gazillion words that don`t make much sense except to closed minds for the most part?

vaDDe aaye choohay sher de bhes vich.

Khurram #104: I agree.

And if there are successful examples of multiple countries, available, where they have been able to bring in foreign languages, and establish them, throughout the society, as the lingua franca, and have progressed, then those should be studied........

I do not know of any such examples. And if there are, then I doubt they are more than a few countries........

That may be the most efficient way to proceed. But it is a near impossible task, in my opinion. People on Chowk take it for granted, because they grew up with English in their homes. And everyone in their surroundings speaks it. They don`t realize what a huge minority, they are a part of.

If one ventures outside these environments, one realizes how much of a foreign langauge English is in Pakistan. English, in its text, script, wordage, style etc. is completely foreign. Unlike say, Persian, Urdu, Punjabi, Sariaki etc, which have commanalities. Punjabi and Urdu, for example, being strikingly similar.............

If one stops looking at Pakistan, from an exclusively elitist view, one ends up realizing how frustrating it must be for the overwhelming amount of Pakistanis, when they cannot move up, due to their lack of proficiency of a foreign language. Not because of their lack of skills. Even if proficiency of the foreign language has nothing to do with the job. What other country has such a set-up. It is the equivalent of Americans not having access to the cushy jobs in govt. and the private sector, if they do not know Portugese, or some other foreign language!!

As an example, imagine if Chowk was in Japanese. Pakistanis, like myself and others, would have so many ideas about Pakistan, they would like to express, but they could not, because they did not know Japanese. Wouldn`t that be frustrating. To see a tiny group of Pakistanis, who know Japanese, exclusively discussing Pakistan, without letting the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis have access to the discussions..

This is what it feels like for the overwhelming number of Pakistanis who cannot speak English; or cannot express themselves in English. This number is phenomenally high. The stupidest Pakistanis, in the world, can participate here, if they can speak English. But the most genius of Pakistanis cannot participate here, if they cannot articulate themselves in English.

God knows how many Pakistanis, who have far superior knowledge and ideas about Paksitan, than all of us participants here, are out of the loop, just because things aren`t accessible in the lingua franca of the country, we are discussing.

Just like the standard of discourse on Chowk would go way up, if a foreign langauge wasn`t a pre-requisite for entry, and everything was available equally in Urdu and English, similarly the standard of the rest of the Pakistani society would go up also, if an egalitarian system was set up, where knowing the lingua franca was enough to move up. Knowing English being an extra asset, but not a deciding factor. As is the case in nearly all countries in the world, which have progressed.

The only other solution is to make English the lingua franca of Pakistan. Which, at least to me, is an impossible task. Because I cannot find examples of it anywhere else. India could be one example. However, India is still in the third world, and India has no widespread established lingua franca, due to its large population..........Countries that do have one, tend to utilize it, to bring most of their populations into the mainstream..........

This, of course, does not mean English should be discarded. Much like Chowk should not switch from English to Urdu (or any other language). It just means that it should be equally accessible in both............Not making English a pre-requisite of participation. Then you would really see talented Pakistanis, from all classes, participating on this site...............

And I have a feeling, they would agree with the argument I am making. While most people on Chowk, currently, might disagree with what I am stating........

khurram: You can look at ``all the countries of the world`` and try to do what you think they are doing. Or you can use your own mind. You can take your pick.

Look at all the countries of the world. There are only 2 choices for the `national` language.
The lingua franca or the language of the colonial masters.
Pakistanis can take their pick.

behram #94: Once again, could I ask you to end your posts to me, with disrespectfully submitted. I like straightforward people, who let me know where they stand. Not individuals who are, simultaneously, disrespectful and respectful.........

I have given you all the anwers I can about English and Urdu, or any of the local languages, being better for Pakistan. That is what I have been debating from the begining. If you cannot understand it, then kindly ask exact questions. I will do my best to answer them. I will, however, once again, articulate what I have been, trying to say, regarding this issue:

Any language that levels the playing field, in terms of access to upward mobility, in Pakistan, or any country, is the language that should be encouraged, first and foremost, before any other language. This is what the successful countries in the world have done. Which is why I asked you to name ten, which had been able to adapt a language, alien in wordage, text, script etc. and had successfully introduced it into the grassroots. You obviously did not answer.

I will, however, provide you with more than ten countries, which use their lingua franca as the basis of upward mobility, and have done well: USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Japan, Korea, Spain, China, Finland, Sweden, Hong Kong, Switzerland, Belgium, Singapore, Japan, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Malaysia..........

The list goes on and on. France actually has a legislation, institutionalizing French as the only language. Other countries, like Hong Kong have both Chinese and English as the mediums of education. Switzerland uses German, French and Italian, since all three are the lingua franca. Much like Canada has French and English..........

But I cannot find any country, which has made progress (not South Asian kind of progress, but real progress like Korea and Japan), where a language, completely foreign in text, script, wordage, style, which did not grow in the local region, and is not spoken by locals, has been brought in and established as the lingua franca of the country. Which is why I have asked you to provide me with ten examples........

If it is possible to establish such a foreign language at the grassroots level, then English could be the solution. But you will have to give examples, where that is done. Pakistan has tried it, unsuccessfully for 55 years. I really don`t think it is possible. People pick up languages from their surroundings. There are barely any English speaking skills available in the average Pakistani`s surroundings......And I don`t see how they can be provided......

This would mean, that like all countries mentioned above, if Pakistan wants to bring in the whole net of its population, into the mainstream, providing them with opportunities to move up, it has to ensure that knowledge of a foreign language, is not a pre-requisite for such an endevour. It should only be a pre-requisite if the job demands it. For example, if I want to become a police officer, my knowledge of English should be neither here nor there. It should be my crime fighting skills that count. After all, I will be dealing with locals who speak Urdu, Punjabi etc. Not English. However, if I want to work for a call center, handling calls from USA, then, obviously, English should count.......

This does not mean, one should discard English. It should be studied and taught. All the countries, mentioned above, study it. Since knowing it is an asset. But it should not be the dividing pre-requisite line in the society.

Pakistan has a literacy rate of 40%. I doubt more than 1 out of 8 of these literate individuals can speak English. That means less than 5% of the population can speak relatively fluent English. Lets stretch it to 5-10%. Where does the remaining 90-95% go. They are out of the loop, in their own country, because they don`t know a foreign language!! What other coutries have such a scenario...........

It is the height of elitism............

Imagine the kind of discourse we would have on Chowk, if it was accessible to every Pakistani in English and Urdu. Then we would really see what Pakistanis think. God knows how many Ahmadmadanis there may be in Pakistan, who have so many unique ideas, but may not be masters of the English language..........

So, if English can be made the lingua franca, then go ahead with it, as the means of upward mobility. If it cannot, and there are no examples that you have provided, then go to the next language, i.e. Urdu. If that does not work, go to the local languages, Punjabi, Sindhi, etc. But the aim should always be to get the most people into the mainstream. Not to create an exclusive stream, for a small group of people.......

My solution is to make everything accessible to everyone in Urdu, first. Not Ghalib`s Urdu, but day to day Urdu. That is easy to do, and to some extent already happens. That will bring the whole population into the mainstream. It will raise the standard of everything in Pakistan, since more individuals would be competing. Much like Chowk`s standard of discourse would go way up, if non-English speaking Pakistanis (the overwhelming majority) people could access it in Urdu, also. Then make as much of it accessible in English (and any other language that helps, French, Mandarin etc.), as possible, thereby keeping Pakistan connected internationally. That is what all successful countries have done.........

Pakistan will never advance, if 90-95% of its population is left out of the loop of upward mobility........

And if you are hell-bent on Musharraf speaking in a language that most of the world can understand, then he should speak in Chinese, since Chinese speakers greatly outnumber anyone else. That would look silly. Wouldn`t it. Since you and I couldn`t understand him. About as silly as it probably seems to the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis, who cannnot understand a word of his speeches, which he is making on their behalf!!.........

Re: # 103

Dear Romair,

Your long drawn response not withstanding, I will, once again, try to explain your logic to you.

You keep on repeating the mantra, when the language levels the playing field, etc. Let us look at this from a historical perspective. Persian was very common before the advent of the British. So, the ruling class, the muslims, used Persian. And they found upward mobility. Was Persian leveling the playing field for the rest of non-muslims of India. Obviously, your response would be no. But the muslims were successful, because the world they were associating with were the Persians, and not the Arabs. In those days, people west of Persia were also upwardly mobile, and their language was Turkish. Correct? And, if all of your argument is based on upward mobility, then, we can agree that for Pakistani population to be upwardly mobile, it should be English and only English.

I have already opined that English is not as alien to Pakistanis as you make it out to be. Actually, there is nothing alien about talking in English, wearing trousers and shirts, listening to western music etc. in the Pakistan that I know of.

The countries you have outlined are societies that are progressive and are forward looking. Actually, on Good Morning America, they showed how Chinese are clamoring to learn English. Your pomposity and your knowledge regarding other countries is not what we are discussing. And that is where, I suppose, you assume that I am disrespectful. On the contrary, in your posts, you have articulated, not a single iota, of new thought that I, presently do not possess.

I have already opined that progress or lack there of in the south Asian countries is not an issue with the language. Pakistan’s problems are not a language problem and you know that. I have said enough on this. Maybe, on some other site, I will encounter the issue of Pakistan’s problem.

Actually, it is well known fact that, in the mid-1950’s South Korea’s foreign minister came to Pakistan to inquire what Pakistan was doing right as a new country. And that is the time when English was much more accepted, than these days.

Regarding a Pakistani police officer and his knowledge of work these days, the less said the better. If only the law officer can do what he is supposed to do, then of course we are all better off. I agree that a Pakistani police officer should have the crime fighting skills. Do they? Of course, one added advantage with English would be that women would not be raped (as there is no rape on military barracks), as you had suggested on a previous site.

Your nuances on the type of job should determine the language educated is ridiculous. So, when a Pakistani child goes to school, he/she should be asked whether he wants to be a police officer or a call center operation’s person, and that should determine the language (English or Urdu) he would be catered to. And, oh, yes, while he is at it, he should also tell the world whether he is going to work in Multan or Peshawar, or Hyderabad, or Quetta, or Tando Ala Yar Khan.

Pakistan’s literacy rate has nothing to do with whether one is taught English or Urdu. Actually, it is a whole lot better to educate the masses in a language that is economically useful worldwide. This should also enhance the civic mindedness of the newly educated masses. The height of elitism is for your opinion that does not give an opportunity that you got yourself. You are absolutely correct about the quality of interaction regarding English Pakistan and Urdu Pakistan, just read the newspapers in Pakistan. Do you read Urdu newspapers?

Of course, English is the only vehicle for Pakistanis to be upwardly mobile. And that is exactly why we are discussing this issue with you. Once again, let us be clear about this, language does not create differences, people do.

I will not be holding my breath until all the technical and engineering and medical books of the 21st century translated for Pakistanis to have a shot at the economic development and be upwardly mobile. Too much time is already wasted on the experiments that you are suggesting.

For your information the whole world that matters do not understand Chinese. I don’t. Do you?

I shall continue to respectfully submit,

Behram B. Atashband