Gandhi in The Handmaid’s Tale

Aisha

Pakistanis, as a people, are not branded as violent/chaotic/unjust/bigoted/anti-feminist people. And when they are so accused, it is not because of Gandhi.

Consider Pakistan`s reputation abroad up until the 1960s. If anyone was going to link Pakistan`s external reputation to Gandhi, that was the time to do it. And Pakistan, as a nation, then, had a better reputation in world capitals, and with various think-tanks, than it does in 2005.

For all Gandhi loving wuss!

This article has been a great learning experience. The article was not about Gandhi’s politics. It was all about what his thoughts were about women in general and how much he was beholden to some really obnoxious thoughts. This was also apparent in his politics when he talked about khadi and taking the India back to medieval times. Ideologically, he probably was the most ridiculous person ever to lead a nation. If he were to take over India after the independence, Indian would still be spinning khadi in dhoti and all the people defending him now would have been making salt by the ocean and catching fish in the dirty waters of Ganges.

OTOH, politically he struck upon an idea for people to distinguish him from the rest of the suit wearing crowd in politics. By just being different, he caught the fancy of the people. Afterwards whatever he said became the gospel truth. The act of putting a dhoti on him made him the genius that he never was. Once he had the public attention, many people helped him with public image. Politically, Gandhi made several mistakes and they are all documented but most of his mistakes can be attributed to the simple fact that most of the Indian politicians at that time were not experienced and it was still the first generation of Indian politicians that struggled or was able to win freedom or was “Given” freedom.

People here have referred to MLK and other politicians who certainly had skeletons everywhere. Having skeletons hasn’t diminished their status as people are able to understand their political contribution to some cause.

The fact is that there were people out there who showed those skeletons and people accepted those skeletons as part of a leader’s life.

True to their hero-worship nature, Indians here are showing that Mediocre minds resist challenges to prevailing orthodoxies.

Most of the Pakistani’s like me were not aware of this side of Gandhi. I am glad that Ms. Sarwari took the time to inform us that what we have always been taught about Gandhi had huge holes. Holes so big that mere ranting of Indians on this site won’t fill.

So far, No Indian has denied or contradicted or shown us that what Ms. Sarwari has quoted is incorrect. In fact, it is time for Indians to come off the high horses and accept that Gandhi was no ``Mahatma`` and he was a politician with all the trappings of a flawed human being.

How mighty fall!

Thank you Ms. Sarwari and look forward to more of these eye opening articles.

Re: # 1189

They already have a room .... but looks like things are not working out too well these days ....

Dost Mittar, 1185,

Well said, but you are wasting your time on Manto and Aisha, eyes wide shut thats how you can describe them. Notice that Manto has nothing to say abt your post.

Ayesa your response, 1178, to ZahraJ post is pathetic.

#1179 by Mantolives on October 11, 2005 1:35am PT


Dear Aisha,


Enough already....get a room you too....

hi mohar:

Ahura Mazda is the abstract and transcendant god of Zoroastrianism. Ahura is the adversary of Angra Mainyu, the Zoroastrian representation of evil. Ahura has no image and cannot be represented in any form (See also: faravahar).

Ahura Mazda, derived from the Old Persian Aura-Mazda (``Aura`` - Lord, ``Mazda`` - Wisdom) symbolizes the supreme deity of Zoroastrian and Mazdean religions.

Ahura Mazda is referred to as Ormazd in modern Persian.

from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

Satyamwada,

I can see how Indians like you would resort to abuses having no argument.

You keep abusing Ayesha Jalal for telling the truth... but H M Seervai was NOT Pakistani my friend.. he was your very own and he used transfer of power papers as his sources as well as the writings of some of your finest ...

So there... please get a grip on yourself man.

-YLH

Re: # 1172 behram
//...By the Grace of Ahura Mazda...//

Who is Ahura mazda?

Dear Aisha:

Congratulations on breaking all records of Interacts with your article. For the sake of chowk, I hope you keep writing more provocative article.

Personally, I think that Gandhi`s aura would have shone a little less if he had not been assasinated. At independece, he was a defeated man who had lost his battle to save the country, whose lifelong mission of non-violence and hindu-muslim unity ended in one of the bloodiest communal chapters in history. He had already lost all political influence in his own party, which refused to disband as per his wishes. His daily prayer meetings were attended by just a few old ladies. Ironically, at the end of his life, he finally got the love of the people he craved all his life, India`s Muslims, but at that time he was probably at the nadir of his popularity among the Hindus who had bestowed upon him the title of the Mahatma and only his assasination restored his aura.

I think that the problem you -and Manto- face is that you are working under a flawed assumption, which is that Gandhi is popular in the world because no one knows about the skeletons in his closet. I do not think that this is true. People like him despite his shortcomings and, more so, because he never tried to use any closets to hide them. His life is an open book, always was, and he never tried to hide even the most embarassing details about himself.

Gandhi is not an exception in this regard. Let us look at the other great icons of the twentieth century. Churchill`s shortcomings were well known and he was, indeed, thrown out of office soon after he accomplished the war mission. John F. Kennedy`s skeletons were well hidden during his time, but even after they have come to light, he is still regarded as a great leader, despite the fact that he presided over the Bay of Pigs, his falling prey to Mafia plants and all that, and not passing a single significant bill in the Congress during his time. Martin Luther King`s skeletons had been constantly leaked by the FBI but this has not prevented him from being an icon for the Blacks. Even in Canada, Trudeau accomplished very little in terms of real achievements but he lives on as a most potent icon of this country.

What all these people had in common was charisma, the ability to articulate the feelings of their followers and make them believe in them and themselves. Gandhi had that in him. After a while in history, the man is forgotten but the image remains.

Aisha Sarwari`s note below (#1178) shows the dishonesty of YLH and his spouse:

Poor Mahatma is to be attacked for just some of his mere thoughts when
his whole life he acted and lived in the most forthright and open manner !!
The Mahatma himeself acknowledges his weaknesses.
On the other hand, the scumbag like Jinnah whose every action was filled
with hatred and violence.
It is said, a mere speck on a white shirt stands out, whereas a whole dirty shirt
is just what it is - a dirty shirt.

---

a) Gandhi was a leader of the Subcontinent, who if read accurately (re: Seervai, Jalal etc) bears some significant brunt of the partition. The fact is relatively unknown.
Gandhi bore no brunt. It is Jinnah and his religious goons who bear the brunth.
Nothwithstanding the lies of Ayesha Jalal. The results of Jinnah`s actions are there
for everyone to see.


b) Gandhi was a flawed man, and like all flawed men, he must deserve the dignity that all mortal men deserve, but, unfortunately he`s made out to be someone he is not. Hence dignity now calls for the man to be rediscovered holistically.
Mahatma himself acknowledges his weaknesses and frailties So little twerps like you
and ylh can do no more than bark.

Was he the champion of:
-Non Violence (given his dictates to kill out of wedlock babies, to beat wives and to sexually abuse minors)
Huh !! The mahatma acknowledges his weakness when he was young. To say he
give dictates to kill out of wedlock babies is your spin (shows how you are the liar).


-Political non-Violence, (He introduced religion into South Asian politics, spitting the movement and snatching it from leaders of Jinnah, Ghokle and Tilak`s standards)
Ha...so you are angry that Gandhi ``snatched`` leadership from Jinnah eh ?
About introducing religion - You want to know what the mullahs were saying ?
Who gave the call to Pakistan ? who wanted to invite the Amirs of Afghanistan to
invade India and make it dar-ul-islam ? Who wanted veto powers based on religion ?
You are just a liar, blaming Gandhi for introducing religion.


-Peace and Justice (His concept of peace was selective, and he wanted justice only for his own people, not for all underdogs)
Yeah. this line is so worthless and false that one can only laugh.

-Equality (He was racist against blacks, and fought against apartheid because he didn`t want himself or other Indians to mingle with the lowly blacks, as a born African I detest this)
Oh yes...he should also have fought against arms smuggling, he should fought against
female infanticide, he should also have fought against polygamy, he did not fight
against smoking, he did not fight against child-marriages, he did not fight against
illiteracy !!
The Mahatma was comparitively young when he started off in South Africa. So he
did not do so many other things.
What did Jinnah do ? - you bozo.

-He was an emancipator of women (He couldn`t even stand women walking with him)
huh ? you fool - Did you see the many writings that were posted on this list ?


c) Gandhi popularly stood for one thing, Truth, and that is the exact thing missing from his image of the world. It’s a reading of selective history that causes these parts of him to remain hidden.
What is obvious - is your ( really Ayesha Jalal`s) selective writing. She will hopefully
be exposed for what she is, a manipulative person.

d) The danger here is that we, Pakistanis as a people, because we once had a conflict of interest with the man, are branded as a) The Violent b) The Politically Violent c) The chaotic and unjust d) The Bigoted e) The Anti-feminist
...once had a conflict ?
Are you blind or just plain stupid. Pakistan ka matlab kya ?
Your whole country is geared up for terrorism, people trained in your country are
killing people around the world, the laws of your country are all prejudiced,
your whole social and govt systems are soaked in bigotry and you are blaming
the Mahatma ?

You, ylh and Ayesha Jalal are all beneath contempt. The problem may indeed
be that the educated folks in Pakiland are all like you. Your hatred and anger for
Hindus has deluded you and you can only think in terms of being ``not-Indian``
and so you pay the price - that is your karma.

Correction #1182
Replace ``frequently`` by ``frequently to virtually every other individual``.

And this one is for Ana, whom I consider a very special interactor!

Ana, I must admit that “other” activities have kept me from keeping track of individual i-logs. However, I must point out to you that you should not let verbal lashings from individual no-name interactors (especially those who do it frequently) get you down – most of such stuff is harmless and it is usually done in the heat of the moment and without any malice intended whatsoever (some individuals can be more fiercely vocal than others) – and its intensity is usually proportionately higher to the amount of expectations one may have from others! I wish you a cheerful frame of mind and the resilience to continue to demonstrate the high quality class in dealing with issues – both inside chowk and outside of this little world – that you have displayed in your own responses. Therefore, cheer up!

Thanks.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Re#1179 Manto
Cheer up, will you! (Also, what is a “treasury bench” and can I get some?)

Re#1178
Dear Aisha (and Manto),
In fairness, the two of you must be commended (not for this article or most of your interacts here, unfortunately) but for your courage under fire. You have taken some rough ammunition – and continue to tick. That’s a good quality and someday it might indeed come handy to you in helping get to that vision of “Modern Democratic Liberal Progressive Pakistan, where everyone has equal rights regardless of religion, caste, creed, gender”. That goal is highly commendable, especially considering that most countries of the world (including of the “first” world) are still trying to get there. I sincerely wish you luck toward that objective. In my opinion, its chances would improve if you focus on the REAL problems of today, not made-up ones after scanty research, as you yourself indicated in #1178 – part (A). Also, this interactor is a strong believer in artistic (including literary) freedoms of all kinds – not a shred of doubt about that – however, a subject as vast as Gandhi – done on the basis of a mere one-hour of research – is unlikely to build the necessary level of nation-wide credibility, or even to boost your readers’ confidence in you – therefore, it’s NOT a good idea to “cook up” an article with the proficiency level in cooking that you have elsewhere admitted having! Also, “blind” prejudice is just as bad as “blind” love – with the important difference that indeed the former can be addressed to some extent! If Mr. Manto did not beforehand review it and suggest improvements along those lines – he has been remiss in his duty toward whom he lists as his number one favorite author on his interactor page – please consider firing him (from the job of a reviewer, I hasten to add – not from his legally-bonded status)! Thanks.

Chowk Staff:

Kindly note that in #1176, the term “chowk-stuff” is to be treated as an article – not as an act! Also, can you do something about the links on the right – they do not seem to work! Has someone been messing with them (not YOU, by any chance?)

Notes for “navigation-challenged” interactors on THIS board:

(1) If you have a high-speed connection, this link will let you see all the comments on a single page – to make life a LITTLE easier (navigation wise).

(2) If you have a low-speed connection – follow the following sub-steps

(a) curse loudly (suggested words: “I have been chowk-stuffed!”),
(b) smack head (use your own – and be gentle, or it might get damaged (if it already is not (which is unlikely since you DID visit this web site, after all (on second thoughts, cancel this sub-step)))), and
(c) get a high-speed connection, then return to step 1.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Dear Chowkstaff,

I wish to register protest at how some of chowk`s finest have resorted to abuse and insults aimed at Aisha, Behram, Godot and Hamidm for disagreeing with the Indian point of view.
It is a matter of great concern that the citizens of the world`s greatest democracy act like quite the fascists when things are not to their liking.

It must be remembered that the whole chowk ideology is pre-disposed to pro-Indian stance since within the collective imagination of chowk staff and chowk cosmos, the Pakistani narrative is at best a well meaning but misguided separatist strand and at worst an outright unreasonable communal narrative. Therefore the Pakistanis here are already forced to argue from a position of weakness which has more to do with the implied ideological bias on the website than the reasonableness of Indian claims.

Therefore, any abuse on part of the ``Treasury benches`` of chowk should be taken note of and made example of by the Chowkstaff, which acts after all in the same capacity as a speaker would in a democratic parliamentary body.

Sincerely

YLH

Dear Aisha,

You wasted your time....

Zahraj`s objective was to tell us that she attended some Indian sponsored ``South Asian Women LEADERS`` seminar.

Well more power to her.

Re: # 703

Zarahj

A) ``This is the most stupid article published on Chowk.``

Thanks for honoring it with such a long post. I wrote it in an hour, browsing Gandhi`s works and just putting it together for kicks. I`ll put in more time on the topic in the future.


B) ``This also reflects the regressive mentality and thought process of certain Pakistanis who have nothing good to do but research on finding the good and bad in the leaders who have left this world way back.``

Gandhi, had he left this world way back, would really not be the problem that he is now. I don`t think you should jump to conclusions about who`s progressive and who`s regressive based on one sourced article on a dead man who in your opinion, ``left this world way back.`` That`s not even an argument, it’s a personal attack.


C) ``What`s the gist of this nonsense? Gandhi did not treat women equally or consider them worthy of anything?``

Yes, this along with his other inconsistencies and bigotry and/or racism.


D) ``Is the purpose to tell hindus on Chowk that their leader had weird policies towards women?``

Actually I think most Hindus know where he stands, this article is for intellectual frigids like you who are too dry to let the touch of Historical truth telling release you from the shackles of propaganda. You are dime a dozen of the famished minds which would rather go with the consensus flow though media and cultural indoctrination rather than formulate an opinion independently.


E) ``Is it a cover-up to hide the bad publicity Pakistan is receiving on the treatment of its women folk?``

It`s a relevant article I think, given the Pakistani context.


F) ``The writer needs to wake up.``

Vague, no real message. Learn to ask intelligent questions.


G) ``Regardless of what Gandhi believed in and did to his wife, all Indian women and men do not follow the same thought process.``

So we shouldn`t talk about what he did to his wife and thought of women?


H) ``Yes, the fact that Indian Culture kicks in every other thing is very true.``

You`re digressing. So what, if Indian Culture kicks in?


I) ``I detest involving culture in my life barring a few items close to my heart - saints/sufis, shawls and select poetry.``

Narcissist. Too much info, go and fill this info in on a shadi.com profile page for Desparado`s Inc.


J)``Just recently, I attended a day long seminar in Chicago where over 100 South Asian Women Leaders were present.``

Yawn


K) ``The participants included CTOs, attorneys, magistrates, physicians, engineers, business women, educationists and technologists.``

And what, you felt inferior?


L) ``There were only 9-10 muslim women in that crowd. Out of those 9-10 muslim women, only 3-4 had Pakistani background.``

Very scientific sample. I await the conclusion.


M) ``The rest were Indian muslims. None of the participants (mainly hindu women) had any issues in terms of where they were in their respective careers.``

You go girls!


N) ``One of the panelists was a very impressive, articulate and brilliant woman in her 40s, the CTO of Motorola - a chemical engineer by background. Despite her international engagements, she was able to attend the event on a weekend just to show her solidarity with women from her part of the world. Not only that, the woman was dressed in a very pretty turquoise eastern dress with beautifully put together matching jewelry.``

Hurray for Shakuntala!


O) ``In my past 10 years or so in Corporate America, I have hardly worked with ikka dukka Indians here and there but I have never attended something like this before where so many ambitious and accomplished south asian women(mostly hindus) were under one roof.``

Wah Wah. Consider turning this into an article, because you`re really boring me here.


P) ``Interestingly, it was evident that they believed in having the cultural affinity. This was a very different environment for me.``

Ya you self-exiled morone who couldn`t make it in her own country.

Q) ``I am not into culture shulture at all and rarely attend any cultural stuff anymore.``

Okkkk....


R) ``I did not see anyone wearing anything on her forehead with any complexes on how her leader, Gandhi Jee, thought of women.``

No kidding???!! Shuks, this whole article, I was trying to prove just that. You got me there! *ashamed*


S) ``I had a strong impression that majority of the women took pride in being of Indian Origin regardless of their bygone leaders’ leanings.``

I salute all woman who stand by their nation and serve their people.


T) ``Based on my 1st hand experience, I am not sure where is this writer coming from?``

God, please go marry Sadna or something. Get to the point!


U) ``Probably, she needs more worldly exposure. Worldly exposure does not come from being a cyber activist or flipping through history books.``

First of all, I am no cyber activist, in fact I hardly write, I wrote an article on Chowk after 2 years or so. And History books, I really can`t read them all, unlike my husband here, who is a walking library.

Oh wait, your post is done. And I still have nothing substantial to respond to.

Let me try explaining the point again.

a) Gandhi was a leader of the Subcontinent, who if read accurately (re: Seervai, Jalal etc) bears some significant brunt of the partition. The fact is relatively unknown.

b) Gandhi was a flawed man, and like all flawed men, he must deserve the dignity that all mortal men deserve, but, unfortunately he`s made out to be someone he is not. Hence dignity now calls for the man to be rediscovered holistically.

Was he the champion of:

-Non Violence (given his dictates to kill out of wedlock babies, to beat wives and to sexually abuse minors)

-Political non-Violence, (He introduced religion into South Asian politics, spitting the movement and snatching it from leaders of Jinnah, Ghokle and Tilak`s standards)

-Peace and Justice (His concept of peace was selective, and he wanted justice only for his own people, not for all underdogs)

-Equality (He was racist against blacks, and fought against apartheid because he didn`t want himself or other Indians to mingle with the lowly blacks, as a born African I detest this)

-He was an emancipator of women (He couldn`t even stand women walking with him)

Let’s dig him up and give him a decent burial.

c) Gandhi popularly stood for one thing, Truth, and that is the exact thing missing from his image of the world. It’s a reading of selective history that causes these parts of him to remain hidden.

d) The danger here is that we, Pakistanis as a people, because we once had a conflict of interest with the man, are branded as a) The Violent b) The Politically Violent c) The chaotic and unjust d) The Bigoted e) The Anti-feminist


MY POINT: It’s high time we get reviewed for facts independently of Gandhi and with the world keeping Gandhi`s holistic life in perspective.

MY POINT: Our narrative deserves a showing in the heritage of the world. Gandhi is overplayed for the wrong reasons and any fair minded person should recognize this fact.

With the threat of being simplistic, I must say there are two kinds of people in this world: Those who have the ability to see it from the underdog’s perspective, and those who don`t.

The latter category cannot be leadership material! Whatever circumstances made him one at the time should be reviewed and not covered up.


Aisha F. Sarwari