Turks: The Bad Part

tahmed -- against the lazy Italians -- anybody could have a resounding success.......:)

further to #45: but that is not to belittle the personal courage of the individual turkish soldier. indeed, in the crimean war - while the brits sang (rightly) about the ``Charge of the Light Brigade``, what they ignored was equal courage shown by Turks (who were allies of the brits in the Crimean war against Russia) in the same battle against the Russians.

But nevertheless, that is neither here not there. The bottom line is that after their defeat from the Russians in 1775, the Ottoman were on a downhill course for the next 150 years. And also, Gallipoli had as much to do with lousy british generalship (putting men on a beach while ignoring the high ground surrounding the beach from which the Turks wreaked havoc on the aussies and new zealanders) as with ataturk`s strong generalship.

nasah: I doubt that your comment on Napoleon`s high regard for the Turkish army is based on something he actually said. I say this because (as I read in a book on the ottoman empire), when Napoleon was a rising star in France he was offered a job to help modernize the Turkish army. Napoleon turned that down in favor of a better opportunity - to lead the French armies in Italy.

The resounding success of his Italian campaign paved the way for Napoleon`s rise to power in France, the high point being when he crowned himself emperor - kind of like Musharaff crowning himself as Supreme National Leader - only Musharaff`s Kargill campaign was not exactly at par with Napoleon`s Italian campaign. :-)

Inferiority or superiority is in the eye of the beholder -- but one things goes for the Turks -- they are fiercely impendent people and great soldiers -- may be the world`s greatest --

Napoleon the megalomaniac used to say if I had the Turkish army instead of the effeminate French I would have conquered the world --

Turks feeling of pride is justified -- they were NEVER colonized -- and it was pure guts and extreme courage --

Churchill tried his best to conquer the Turks -- but met his Waterloo in Gallipoli -- the British abominable defeat by the starving Turkish soldiers -- despite the tough Australian soldiers -- was so thorough and complete and humiliating -- that it should have ended the career of Churchill for life -- as a strategist and as a colonel in the British army -- with a court martial -- but well -- later on of course Churchill emancipated his soiled reputation against the Germans --

(if only the Germans had the Turks in their army that they have now -- things might have been different...for that diehard colnialist Mr. Churchill.....:) --

anyway after Gallipoli nobody dared to even think of invading the Turks........until the Americans...:)

#37 by SR on March 19, 2006 4:58am PT

” IF the European Union survives in its present form. I have a feeling that the EU may not last and may be reduced to a common market rather than become a United States of Europe.. the so-called EU constitution is another disaster … this EU nonsense cannot survive two centuries unless these old stupid European attitudes change radically”


Back in late 80s when I use to travel a lot, I congratulated a British colleague on EU/Euro since now they will be able to successfully compete with USA and finally be free from US domination :). He was a Scottish gentleman who pointed out that after centuries of union with England, they still had different legal system in property rights and some other areas unlike pretty uniform legal system across USA with 50 states. His point was that how are all the new EU countries going to have uniform legal system in the areas of corporate governance, people property rights etc. so essential for forging a single new identity?

On the other hand, 7-8 years back, there was an article in Forbes by a noted British historian that predicated that in the next 40-50 years, all Anglo countries (USA, Canada, UK, Australia, and New Zeeland) will merge with USA, with Washington and London as joint capital to rule the world. His point was that identical legal systems, similar world view and urge to merge in order to compete effectively is a must and odds of success are much higher if you come from common background as opposed to physical proximity. He even had the number of states/senators that UK will get in the new union.

Obviously, my English friends did not like this prediction. I guess they love their Kings and Queens. On the other hand, did not UK and Australia cooperate fully with USA, whenever needed?

#41 there is a third alternative to turks being superior or inferior.

that alternative is: no one is superior or inferior because of his/her nationality, religion, race. I suggest you give some thought to this possibility.

Re: # 36

If you feel turks or not inferior to pakistanis or indians then I need to be corrected.

TURKS are superior to pakistanies and indians.

Re: # 29
You have good point.
Color is not important real problem is discrimaination based on look. But its better to be father of fair daughters than dark as its hard job.
Ugly people are discriminated all time. If you look at top places most are good looking and ugly looking people are not liked for no reason but being ugly.

Re: # 8

Mr. Ram I am told there no real blonds in USA. All women in USA are blond wanabis. Herd dark colored black and vietnamys etc all ar blond in usa. One expak in Karachi told me nonblonds are rare women in USA.

SR: your projections assume everything else equal, particularly on the technology front. that assumption is not realistic. e.g. the japanese seem to be relying on robotics and automation to deal with an aging population, rather than dealing with millions of neurotic immigrants from the third world (like the europeans tried to do). if they succeed, the europeans may follow the same route.

Re: # 26 zeemax

I agree with everything you wrote in #26 ... no disputing the facts. But on the question of mindset, I submit to you that what you say is true today. In the years to come, as the old foggies die out, the attitude of the younger generation is going to be different and in a decade or two things will change sufficiently to where Turkey will be accepted... that is to say IF the European Union survives in its present form. I have a feeling that the EU may not last and may be reduced to a common market rather than become a United States of Europe. Their common currency, the Zero (popularly known as the Euro), is a fiasco and was implemented in the most absurd manner...(more about that another time)... and the so-called EU constitution is another disaster... its simply a nice thought that is being played out as a series of bad policies and I don`t see it going too far. Unlike the 1789 experiment of the United States, this EU nonsense cannot survive two centuries unless these old stupid European attitudes change radically.

So, in conclusion, I believe we are saying the same thing more or less. In an EU that has the present mindset Turkey is out. But if this mindset does not change the EU will also die. Conversely, if the attitude changes over time, as I believe it may, then EU may also have a longer term future. And if that happens, Turkey will also be in.

...SR

madani #28 madani jee, why do you make such meaningless statements as ``Turks are inferior to indians and pakistanis``. What kind of racist lafangbaazi is this, i ask you?? and dont say that to a Turks face, or else he will say: ``Uglupulmacip!! hayaoku warokuu madani!!`` and then he will hang you upside down.

zeemax brother: i just saw this on the modernity board from you:
You write:

#88 by tahmed32/#89 by Kulharee
You a$$holes ... you`re here for nothing else than feel-good stuff looking at your own posts. You don`t know anything.
So ... fcuk off.


Now then!! I am getting very worried about you. Are you feeling alright? I thought you were the future nobel prize winner in economics. You havent taken to the bottle have you???

Turkey - an evening coffee house to relax for both the sides; Europe and Arabs.
With no oil means it tends to go at its own pace; the pace of the smoke of a sheesha; all settled and billowing with a rested calm.

Nonetheless, Turkish people are one of the hygiene-maintaining people on earth. They crave to carve out a clean mirror out of every clean thing glaring with neatness.

Entry into the EU -[referring to a comment down there - without Turkey EU is suffocated] - even if its a conspiracy against and EU is desperate; to avoid Turkey, England can hop in the bandwagon get the EU ticket and shove off Turkey for a while.
While commerce is stable in Turkey as is its climate, but economical impact in the region by Turkey is no more than a fluttered imagination.

P.S - the piece of writing is indeed comprehensive but quite basic; indeed it has endowed in the wishlist to visit this country and imbibe the breeze passing through olden structures that still stand today.

#30 by kabuliwallah

A$$hole only thing they have is tourist industry. Do you want it to become a Thigh-Land and capital of a Bangcock?

#28 ahmedmadani ...
Man! Your Long and informative essays make my day! :)
No doubt most will agree?
Keep it up!!
Jayen