Samosey mein aloo: why not Laloo?

#113 by drlokraj

[I am not defending Laoo`s corruption, but are you sure that before him,Bihar was best governed state and there was no law and order problems and corruption? I still remmber, the worst news of caste based killings used to come from Bihar even when there was no Laloo.]

Doctor Sahib,

I agree Bihar`s slide started well before the Laloo raj and I`ve stated that in my previous post. But I`m sure you`ll agree with me that it accentuated during his reign.

For god`s sake here is a man out who is out on bail in the fodder scam, who`s become the union railway minister through blackmail and runs his state by proxy, and we`re talking about his rise as a phenomenon?

#111,
harish_hyd

I am not defending Laoo`s corruption, but are you sure that before him,Bihar was best governed state and there was no law and order problems and corruption? I still remmber, the worst news of caste based killings used to come from Bihar even when there was no Laloo.

Here`s a news item on the legacy of corruption and mismanagement left behind by Lalu in Jharkhand.

Production cost of one egg - Rs 77

Excerpt:

``The animal husbandry department had hit the headlines almost 10 years ago due to the multibillion-rupee fodder scam in undivided Bihar. Money was swindled from the department in the name of fodder for animals.

``The scam named bigwigs like Railway Minister Lalu Prasad, who is facing five cases, and former Bihar chief minister Jagganth Mishra, who is also facing five cases.``

#99 by drlokraj

[Dont conclude that I personally have high hopes from Laloo, but at least he is symbolic of a change and the change has to start from somewhere.Those at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, do not go on the upper padestals overnight.Laloo is a step in that direction.]

Indeed Laloo`s rise as a phenomenon is worth talking about. But when we talk about his phenomenal rise, can we ignore the fact that under his rule, Bihar has become nothing more than a large cowshed? Can we ignore his misdemeanors, corruption, and appeasement of minorities and his henchmen? Can we ignore the fact that Bihar`s decline from being the best-governed state after Independence was accentuated exponentially by his misrule over the last 15 years?

Is it possible to selectively discuss an aspect of his life without casting so much as a glance on the damage he has done to the 8 crore or so people of his state and Indian democracy at large?

Re: #108 by bongdongs

I think what you WILL get is anti-hindu/ anti-national types like this Farzana character start questioning ANY claims that point to Ansari`s guilt, or to Neera Yadav`s past track record.

When the establishment is Mulayam Sing Yadav, fiercely ``anti-establishment`` Farzana types would suddenly become pro-establishment.

And the other lefty/pseudo-secular/pseudo-intellectual fakes and the spineless dhimmis would follow.

#108

Call it dhimmitude...

This is what causes disillusionment with ``secular`` parties:

In the eastern UP town of Mau Independent MLA Mukhtar Ansari has been inciting violence against Hindu`s in this Muslim dominated district. Violence started few days ago over the Dussera procession. Since Mukhtar Ansari is a Mulayam Singh supporter, Mulayam has gone out of his way to protect him. The district administration is paralysed, as they will not act against Ansari.

After much criticism a 3 person enquiry comission has been established headed by Neera Yadav, a hard-core Mulayam groupie who has had strictures passed against her by the supreme court. Neera Yadav is the infamous winner of the ``most corrupt IAS officer`` title in a poll conducted among UP IAS officers. Now, anybody care to wager if Ansari is going to find mention in this ``investigation``?

Now how is it any different than the BJP going all out to defend Govardhan Zapadia in Gujarat? But, will we see front page editorials in TOI on this? Will we hear Teesta Seetalvad or Arundhati Roy give a lecture on this? Anybody want to wager an amount on that?

for more on Neera Yadav:
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=79575

ajeya my friend...
how is your wife...still objecting to your pontification on chowk afraid that one of the crazy muslims might hurt you...fret nawt... i have told the local jihadi chapter of new york area to go easy on you coz you are my friend...;)

ps: keep ranting...err keep educating us...

Re: #105 by kaalchakra

Well your wording was inaccurate then.

Ajeya

Gaining right understanding is important in and of itself.

After understanding things as they actually are, one can do whatever one wishes depending upon one`s own concept of what is good, and one`s own internal integrity.

Re: #103


[One can more effectively oppose a political party/movement by understanding it. ]

So let`s see if I understand this correctly:


Step 1) Try to understand it, in order to more effectively oppose it (the GOAL, so to speak).

Step 2) After understanding, there would be two conclusions:

a) There`s nothing bad about the political party/movement.

b) There`s plenty bad about the political party/movement.

Step 3) Now use your understanding to oppose it more effectively (regardless of whether it is a or b ).




This reminds me of a line in Arundhati Roy`s ``God of Small Things``:

The christian missionaries used to study Hindu religious texts in order to more effectively denounce it. (Paraphrasing here)

drlokraj

``pre mughal sanskriti means the full fledged caste system within Hiduism as well..meaning thereby that nobody like Laloo or Mulayam may even think of becoming leaders.``

BJP is now chockful of leaders hailing from the so-called lower-castes.

One can more effectively oppose a political party/movement by understanding it.

Re: #99 by drlokraj

In this post, this character mentions ``caste-based politics`` several times - as his primary reason for his anti-BJP stance. NOWHERE in any BJP agenda have I ever found any caste-based approach to ANYTHING. Same goes for the RSS. (If there is, I`d like someone to SHOW me). In fact, what I find is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. Condemnation of caste-based discriminations, and participation and involvement in BOTH parties from ALL the castes.

Also, this character mentions that bringing back Hindutva automatically means caste-based politics. Which of course is a load of garbage. Hinduism, as any serious scholar of hinduism knows, is not BASED on casteism. Rather, casteism is a social phenomenon that evolved over the years (like Weavers in England used to weave, Smiths used to forge etc) based on people`s professions. And it morphed into the self-destructive form it attained. It is such an old religion that already when Buddha was born, it had gotten mired in superstitions and social injustices.

BOTH RSS and BJP have been working against caste-based discriminations.

So this begs the question - WHY is this drlokraj character lying? Well whenever people are consciously lying, they have an agenda. In this case, it is obviously, desperately, to prevent BJP from coming to power at ANY COST. Even if that means lying flat out.

I am relatively new to Chowk, so it seems to me that this individual is either a closet Dalistan fruitcake, or an Islamist. Could be a lefty as well, because lefties lie blindly to rationalize for their failed ``theories``.

DM or any other `cadillac communist`,

I`snt yr philosophy something like, ``He may be a bastard, but at least he`s our bastard.`` And still you people write on and on as if you are better than other`s.

Drlokraj#99:

I agree with you re. the RSS. But as I pointed out in my article on the BJP, political compulsions are forcing tbe moderate elements in the BJP to distance themselves from the RSS. BTW, I believe that while the anti-muslim stance of the RSS remains intact, they seem to have moved away from their casteist posture. As for Laloo not joining the BJP coalition earlier, his votes were not crucial and he was not in the position of a king-maker. Lalu is more shrewd, he would want to exact a bigger price if he were to risk losing part of his support base in Bihar.

#98 DMji,
With due regards, I wish to differ slightly, from your point of view.
While, you may be partly right in your analysis in the first paragraph, but wrong in the second one.Let me explain how:

Yes, diehard opponents of BJP want to eliminate it from the Indian Political scene, like the diehard admirers of BJP want no other party to govern India ever.So, far, understandable, but what is not understandable is how moderate Hindus can hope that BJP leaves its religious agenda and become something like Rep party of US? This is nothing more than a wishful thinking, and may be just reminiscent of sympathy with BJP at unconscious level. I am saying so, because at least you know that BJP is nothing but political arm of RSS whose main aim is, not current political power(though that makes things much simpler for them), but, to bring back the Hindu sanskriti of pre-mughal times. Every muslim is still symbolic of invasion for them, and pre mughal sanskriti means the full fledged caste system within Hiduism as well..meaning thereby that nobody like Laloo or Mulayam may even think of becoming leaders.

Secondly, its not appropriate to compare Laloo with likes of CB Naidu or Mamta Bannerjee. CB Naidu displayed oppurtunism by allying with the BJP at centre, because his main opposition in the state was with congress. He did this even though he did not agree with BJP`s communal agenda. In a way, he was the biggest deterrent for BJP,` persual of the hidden agenda.On the other hand, Mamta , does not have any standing in Indiamn Ppolitics, other than just having a nuisance value.Even within anti-left politics in WB, she was a mere leader by exclusion.BJP needed likes of her to support them at the centre.Laloo had the oppurtunity to turn to BJP at that time, but he opposed BJP. What could have stopped Laloo from supporting BJP, if he was that oppurtunist? Also, the phenomenon of Laloo in Bihar is older than the emergence of BJP as a worthwhile political power, which could rule at the centre.

On a separate note, when the even the educated hindutva followers are now not finding any propblem with BJP working on their age old lines, then what problem do they find, if somebody persues caste based politics within Hiduism? The problem for them is again muslims, because they will then become natural supporters of any anti BJP force.
Social inequalities have always been at the base of any change at the political level.....that is the rule of social dialectics and also political economy.So its only the natural process taking shape.In I ndia, the reality of the caste is as important as that of class.

Dont conclude that I personally have high hopes from Laloo, but at least he is symbolic of a change and the change has to start from somewhere.Those at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, do not go on the upper padestals overnight.Laloo is a step in that direction.

Re.#95:

The attitude towards Laloo can not be understood without people`s attitude towards the BJP. Some of us secularists who oppose the BJP do so because we do not like its political agenda or some aspects of it, but we nevertheless regard it as a legitimate political party which has the right to pursue its political agenda as long as it stays within the constitutional framework. We do not like Laloo even though he stood up for secularism when others faltered. There are however others, mainly but not exclusively Muslims, who think that they are in a do-or-die struggle with the BJP; if they have to choose between the BJP and the devil, they would unhestitatingly choose the latter, even if it means India itself is destroyed; a more charitable interpretation of their position would be that they think that India would be destroyed unless the BJP is. We would like the BJP to shed its anti-muslim bias and become a moderate party, more along the lines of the Republican Party in the US. But those who want to destroy it have no such desire; to them people like Vajpayee are their worst enemies because they can lull people into a false sense of reassurance and make the party more palatable to many people who do not like the ugly face of the BJP represented by the likes of Modi.

I think that these people are betting on the wrong horse. Laloo is merely an opportunist politician whose anti-BJP stance is merely his ticket to the Yadav-Muslim alliance in Bihar. If tomorrow he gets into the position of being a king-maker in Delhi by supporting the BJP, he would do the same that Chandrababu Naidu, Mamta Bannerjee, George Fernandez and Farooq Abdullah did before him.

tvarad, that was an insightful post.
I do take issue with you that there common man does not have the opportunity. It`s just that politics also is a business more so than in the west and it presents the easiest opportunity. I am not sure the playing field is any more level in the west. There, however, is the will to ensure laws are obeyed. That`s what`s missing in india at large.
Regarding the Brits, there is this myth among the generation of our parents that they were incorruptible. What happened was the corruption of the british officers did not percolate down to lower ranks to the same extent. Now it`s all browh sahibs at the top and at the bottom and the lines are really blurred.

Re: #94 by Grey Cells Extravaganza


[A Laloo does not do that; he is not deified. ]


Bihari Babu`s Bluff

Delhi Diary by Vinod Mehta
OutlookIndia.com

At what point does a ``national treasure`` become a ``national liability``? Pseudo-secularists like me have blindly defended and deified Laloo Prasad Yadav for his courageous, single-minded fight against communal forces. We pretended that the havoc he has caused in his home state was forgivable, if not understandable, given the caste antagonisms and social fabric of Bihar. His wit, buffoonery and rustic horseplay, we said, was a tribute to grassroots Indian politics which had thrown up a genuine son of the soil. Torn as he was between courts, Yadav consolidation and criminal MLAs/MPs, we overlooked his clear mendacity. When he made his simple-minded wife the chief minister, we said, ``Poor man, who else can he trust?`` Meanwhile, Bihar fell off the map of India and its galloping anarchy did not merit discussion because, in a sense, Bihar was not part of India. Bihar was Bihar. I don`t absolve myself or Outlook from spreading the aforementioned logic. In the last 15 years, consequently, we have allowed Laloo a very easy ride.

When he was chief minister, his potential for mischief was limited. Bihar had reached the point of no return, so what could Laloo do to further aggravate its condition? We were insulated from his heavy hand. Sadly, he is now out of power in Bihar and a cabinet minister to boot. Thus, his imprint currently has national implications—and with Patna out of his grasp he has time on his hands not to entertain us but to frighten us. There`s no rule he will not break, no institution he will not denigrate, no charge he will not fabricate to achieve his twin objectives: win back the gaddi in Patna and mount onslaughts against the BJP. His behaviour at the railway crash site in Gujarat where the deceased were swiftly forgotten and all media attention diverted to publicise an exaggerated ``death threat``, and last week`s shameful assault on one of India`s proudest constitutional bodies—the Election Commission—should make all of us who champion him think again. Of course, he has 24 MPs and could bring down the UPA, but he knows what will follow will ensure that he stays permanently in jail. Laloo has nowhere to go. It`s time we called his bluff.

Mr L.P. Yadav is an extraordinarily shrewd and intelligent politician. No one, not even his opponents, doubt that. Someone needs to take him aside and gently but firmly remind him that he is fast alienating his support among India`s secular middle class. Who is the person who can whisper sense into Laloo`s ear? I don`t have a clue.

Now THIS is a man with a conscience:

Bihari Babu`s Bluff

Delhi Diary by Vinod Mehta
OutlookIndia.com

At what point does a ``national treasure`` become a ``national liability``? Pseudo-secularists like me have blindly defended and deified Laloo Prasad Yadav for his courageous, single-minded fight against communal forces. We pretended that the havoc he has caused in his home state was forgivable, if not understandable, given the caste antagonisms and social fabric of Bihar. His wit, buffoonery and rustic horseplay, we said, was a tribute to grassroots Indian politics which had thrown up a genuine son of the soil. Torn as he was between courts, Yadav consolidation and criminal MLAs/MPs, we overlooked his clear mendacity. When he made his simple-minded wife the chief minister, we said, ``Poor man, who else can he trust?`` Meanwhile, Bihar fell off the map of India and its galloping anarchy did not merit discussion because, in a sense, Bihar was not part of India. Bihar was Bihar. I don`t absolve myself or Outlook from spreading the aforementioned logic. In the last 15 years, consequently, we have allowed Laloo a very easy ride.

When he was chief minister, his potential for mischief was limited. Bihar had reached the point of no return, so what could Laloo do to further aggravate its condition? We were insulated from his heavy hand. Sadly, he is now out of power in Bihar and a cabinet minister to boot. Thus, his imprint currently has national implications—and with Patna out of his grasp he has time on his hands not to entertain us but to frighten us. There`s no rule he will not break, no institution he will not denigrate, no charge he will not fabricate to achieve his twin objectives: win back the gaddi in Patna and mount onslaughts against the BJP. His behaviour at the railway crash site in Gujarat where the deceased were swiftly forgotten and all media attention diverted to publicise an exaggerated ``death threat``, and last week`s shameful assault on one of India`s proudest constitutional bodies—the Election Commission—should make all of us who champion him think again. Of course, he has 24 MPs and could bring down the UPA, but he knows what will follow will ensure that he stays permanently in jail. Laloo has nowhere to go. It`s time we called his bluff.

Mr L.P. Yadav is an extraordinarily shrewd and intelligent politician. No one, not even his opponents, doubt that. Someone needs to take him aside and gently but firmly remind him that he is fast alienating his support among India`s secular middle class. Who is the person who can whisper sense into Laloo`s ear? I don`t have a clue.

Re: # 86

Dr Lok Raj: There is no confusion. You are right in that I discussed the Laloo phenomenon. The problem is that most people from the subcontinent want `purified` icons. The minute you discuss a flawed case, there is a level of discomfort because the System has created these leaders -- and here one is talking of the System as the populace. Most people need their icons to come from above...so they can be cult followers. A Laloo does not do that; he is not deified.

Stuka: JP did not start the Bhoodan Movement; it was Vinoba Bhave. Being a `catalyst`, why are the changes he ought to have brought about not evident? JP became a cult (I have explained it above).

Re. whether Nehru would then not be seen as a mass leader because he was a brown sahib, I`d say that in the current political scenario, he would be the equivalent of a Manmohan Singh/Jaswant Singh. He would have one added advantage -- charisma. Mass leader he would not be.

And since he started the dynasty, he would not reap the benefit of that factor.

Nehru sympathised; he would not have been able to empathise -- therefore he was your `pure` leader.

When I was growing up in the late 60`s & 70`s my Dad used to claim that India would have been much better off if it had still been under the British. Fed on Indian nationalism in school, the youthful, naive idealist in me could never figure out why someone preferred schackles to freedom.

A few decades on, it dawns on me that what the common man needs is law, order and opportunity. That is all my Dad, a hardworking self-made man was asking for. If such an environment is provided, then roti, kapda aur makaan (RKM) will follow.

The trouble with the Lalloos, Mulayams and Mayawatis is that they promise RKM & that too to their narrow political base and preach that law, order and opportunity are luxuries. They arbitrage societal differences in the finest traditions of a currency or metals broker on Wall Street for their own ends & like George Soros, claim that they are doing it for the overall good. But like George Soros, they are nothing but parasites.

Coming back to my Dad`s postulate that India would have been better off under the British; I sometimes wonder if he was very far off the mark. Did we get our independence at the wrong time? After all, due to the pied pipers of socialism, we did miss out on the benefits of the world transforming itself from a set of insular societies to a global village (warts and all). When the world figured out that an equitable society comes from growing the economic pie, our political mandarins were busy carving it up forgetting that if it was not grown, there wouldn`t be much of it to go around.

When we are given a level playing field as in the West, we not only flourish but excel. Couldn`t we have emulated this in India, had the barriers to meaningful advancement not been made so high due to faulty social engineering?

Re: # 91

hp:

``If you remove Laloo’s aggression and his convoluted opposition to BJP, how would he differ from Malayam Singh or Mayavati in his politics? Your beef with him is his opposition to the BJP, the reason he is liked by the left is his opposition to the BJP. ``

Mulayam is also against bjp, though he is against congress too, whereas lalu is pro-congress to some extent.

for mulayam the biggest threat is not bjp but congress and mayawati. mulayam siezed power not from bjp base but from congress (muslims) and congress is now makig noise about mis-rule by mulayam.

alao, mulayam had a bitter fight with mayawati too.

lalu won`t differ much from mulayam and mayawati w.r.t. the political base where he differs is that neither mulayam nor mayawati has presided over the ruin of u.p. for as long as 15 years and still think of governing. The law and order is bad but not as worse as bihar.

There are many more parties who oppose bjp’s communal politics, like congress, naidu, AIADMK, DMK, Chautala, Ajit singh, Sharad Pawar but none has been so ineffective for so long. All that is asked of him is to provide better law and order, better infrastructure, good educational facilities, good environment for investment. He has not been able to do that and will never do that. That’s the beef not for his opposition to rath yatra.


“Let me ask you and Neti too, if Laloo had allowed Advani Rath Brigade in Bihar, would you still be so fiercely opposed to him considering that most of the regional politics in India(in almost all states) is based on identical elements (caste/Zaat, minority, corruption and cronyism) championed by Laloo?”

Yes, because during his 15 years of mis-rule he has converted bihar into his own fiefdom. Uma bharati was one of the protagonists of ram mandir. But if she and bjp leadership are not able to deliver their promise of bijli-makan-pani in Madhya pradesh, then its better for them to sit in the opposition benches next time. Compare this to lalus 15 year of converting bihar into a big tabela (cow shed).

#78 by harimau

Not being an Indian, I have no dog in the `` The Bihari and UP bhaiyyas breed like pigs/ etc`` food fight. I think you really have no choice in NOT sharing wealth with “these slackers”. In fact, You are already doing it. The central taxation system and if you are a contributor to it, would not ask from you or a majority of Indians how tax rupee is distributed and that to me is the biggest flaw in a federal system.

I doubt that the PRC (china) was/is my favorite country. Incidentally, it is a country without personal taxation. One example- I wish the largest capitalist country in the world, the US, could follow.

The communists and socialists are gone but their ideals and wet dreams still dominate the world. Who would have believed that the US corporations would look like government owned corporations when they asked for government legislation for changing the bankruptcy laws.

Instead of choosing good business sense, corporations are choosing government legislations to run their businesses. Most of the Western countries look like welfare states including the US and at this point it is hard for me to say how long they will continue to travel the “socialist path”. India is also a welfare state and no matter how much we talk about free economy, it is constantly being undermined by the socialists morphed into fiscal geniuses.

That aside, I think the longer you wait in sharing more with bihar, UP, Orissa, Bengal and many other basket cases in the union, harder it would get to keep the high engines of the economy rolling. The choice is yours to make.

“The price was US$ 500,000 for a sixth of an acre, a rate of US$3 million an acre!”

Still can’t beat the 56th st. midtown, Manhattan. Keep working on it thoug!


Stuka, Neti

“But the fact is, his whole empowerment story is a damn hoax.”

Both you and Neti make similar points and you would agree with me that people who support Laloo in bihar don’t buy your line of argument.

When I mentioned the real India, poor is just one element of it. There are several sections of the Indian economy that conflict with the recent middleclass gains in India.

Laloo is not representing poor. I agree with that but his coalition consists of mostly poor and he cannot avoid talking about the poor though that may not be his political stand.

If you remove Laloo’s aggression and his convoluted opposition to BJP, how would he differ from Malayam Singh or Mayavati in his politics? Your beef with him is his opposition to the BJP, the reason he is liked by the left is his opposition to the BJP.

Let me ask you and Neti too, if Laloo had allowed Advani Rath Brigade in Bihar, would you still be so fiercely opposed to him considering that most of the regional politics in India(in almost all states) is based on identical elements (caste/Zaat, minority, corruption and cronyism) championed by Laloo?

Re: # 86

``All the armed attacks by maoists have beemn against the Ranvir sena or other such private senas of the Feudal lords. ``

almost all the private senas of the feudal lords are extinct. some singh of ranvir sena is in jail (in fact he himself surrendered). do you think the maoists will disband and go home? private armies were just a thorn in the flesh the real objective is ``revolution`` similar to wat mao did in china. how many private armies are in andhra? or in nepal where the maoists are holding the people to ransom?

``he rose among masses from being one of them, and that is the majoer difference.``

but that should not be the justification for his misrule. shouldn`t that be more of a reason for him to provide a decent life for his subjects? from whereever he came from, he is a major failure and the people of bihar are facing the consequences.

``There are so many other things to do in Bihar, and believe me, there are lot of doctors already working..a la Che Guevara style. ``

they are just dreaming about overthrowing the burgeoise democratic state and form a peoples republic a la china. lalu with no governance is definitely strengthening their hands.


``Phenonenon of Laloo means people starting to recognize their strengths...they dont have to depend on ``imported ``leaders who even dont understand their language......``

i don`t understand what are you trying to say. no one was and is imposing ``imported`` leaders on anyone, peolple themselves decide what they want. the language of future is not rustic bhojpuri or english but of governance, development and progess, which lalo will never understand. if he were in some other state he would been thrown out a long time back. ut because of his M-Y factor, he is still holding on. thanks god jharkhand is out of this tyranny.

Dr Lok Raj:

What is a mass leader? Should we consider that Nehru was not a mass leader because he was a brown sahib? And Chiman Chor of Gujarat was a mass leader because he calculated the KHAM alliance (Khatri, Harijan, Ahir, Muslim) and therefore stayed on to power.

Farzana asks: ``But what did JP do for Bihar? Why do these `tall` leaders not dirty their hands in everyday politics? ``

JP was the catalyst of Bihar politics. His Bhudaan movement had a huge impact on feudalism, leading to land redistribution on a moral basis. He was very much a mass movement leader cut in the same socialist mould and unlike Lallu he did not play caste politics.

How is Lallu different from Ballu then? One plays caste politics, the other of ethnic identity and religion. But I doubt that any Iindian intellectual would be oh so charitable to Ballu as they are to Lallu.

Re: # 85

``Please don`t hold your breath expecting an answer. Like Romair, the resident Chowk expert, the author doesn`t answer uncomfortable questions.``


True, I have found them both avoiding uncomfortable questions..
Just quote the verses from the Quran and see how they squirm.. :-))

---

``For years, history has been telling large sections of our society that equality is a myth.``

True.. I believe she would include Muslim women in that list too. They have been screwed from the days of Quran and are denied entry in the mosques in India.. Like the ``temple entry movement`` for Dalits there should be a ``mosque entry movement`` for muslim women and the author should lead from the forefront..

#86,

There`s no confusion Sir....

Laloo`s histrionics can fool the illiterate masses, and the old school. Laloo is an icon and bared hypocrisy that exists amids us, according to the lady. Why is it that I cannot say the same about Bal Thakeray?

the confusion seems to be regarding Laloo as a person/politician and Laloo as a phenomenon.What FV (to my mind) tried to focuss is Laloo as a phenomenon.I refered to Mulayam and Mayawati in the same context.
The emergence of Laloo on Indian political scene was a mass leader..he rose among masses from being one of them, and that is the majoer difference.I dont say he has not acquired the colours of typical Indian politicians.
Revolutions dont happen overnight.Yes, the base of communists/Maoists is the landless dalits of Bihar, but are all the backwards of Bihar landowners, or are they being perceived as class enemies by the proliterate class of Bihar? Is laloo being perceived as representative of the burgeoise or the feudal class by the maoists.All the armed attacks by maoists have beemn against the Ranvir sena or other such private senas of the Feudal lords.

Someone suggested me to set up medical practice in Bihar to experience the ground realities.If I shift to Bihar, that oes not mean I have to do only medical practice and make money-Punjab is more than good for that. There are so many other things to do in Bihar, and believe me, there are lot of doctors already working..a la Che Guevara style.

Phenonenon of Laloo means people starting to recognize their strengths...they dont have to depend on ``imported ``leaders who even dont understand their language.......and if Laloo (person)keeps going the same way,the Laoo(phenomenon) will wipe him off.....and same is true of other two.

#84 by antihypochrist, #83 by concerned1 on October

[the rest of us can not understand why this author frequently publishes her articles on chowk.com, a website that is predominantly visited by `those who sit in foreign countries` (NRIs) and then object to their criticism as invalid on this basis?]

Please don`t hold your breath expecting an answer. Like Romair, the resident Chowk expert, the author doesn`t answer uncomfortable questions.

I`ve always asked her that: if she indeed wants to brew up a discussion among people living in her country, why not post her ``articles`` on an Indian website, or perhaps even in one of the national magazines. No, she doesn`t do that. TFT, Chowk, Naseeb, Muslim Vibes are THE sites.

[...I cannot understand how those who sit in foreign countries can object to a Mumbai person (of course with her Rs. 80 coffee) speaking about another part of her own country...]

the rest of us can not understand why this author frequently publishes her articles on chowk.com, a website that is predominantly visited by `those who sit in foreign countries` (NRIs) and then object to their criticism as invalid on this basis?

who exactly is your intended audience? pakistanis?

bongdongs #79

the samosas i ate as a kid in lahore were as godot mentioned in one of his posts, mostly filled with qeema, not with aloo. and sometimes perhaps muTTer qeema, but i think what i`ve had here in the US, in restaurants for the most part are aloo ke samosey.

i miss those qeema se bharay huay samosas. and a shingara sounds good to me as well. :)

Re: #67 by Unbridled Intellect

[HP, the urban middle-class does not bring about far-recahing changes; it merely embellishes and prunes. It rationalises, which is often the worst form of delusion.

I repeat, Laloo is vital. ]


Fodder scam: Lalu lands in trouble


IANS [ MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2005 03:26:22 PM ]


RANCHI: A special court here Monday framed charges against Railway Minister Lalu Prasad, former Bihar chief minister Jagannath Mishtra and others in two cases related to the fraudulent withdrawal of money from the treasury.

There was a buzz of excitement as the Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) chief arrived at the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) court at 11.15 am and left about an hour later.

The framing of the charges in the corruption cases, collectively known as the Rs 9.5 billion fodder scam, could not have come at a more politically inconvenient time for Lalu Prasad with Bihar elections less than a month away.

In the first case, charges were framed against a total of 38 people, including Lalu Prasad, Mishra, RJD MP RK Rana and officials of the animal husbandry department, for embezzlement of Rs 9.7 million from the Deoghar treasury.

The interrogation of the witnesses will begin Nov 24.

The second case, in which charges were framed against 178 people, relates to the fraudulent withdrawal of Rs.1.82 billion from Doranda treasury in Ranchi between 1990 and 1995.

Lalu Prasad is accused in five of the cases and has been jailed thrice for his alleged involvement. Charges against him had earlier been framed in two other cases.

The Rs 9.5 billion fodder scam surfaced in 1996 in then undivided Bihar. On the orders of Patna High Court, the scam was handed over to CBI. There were a total 61 cases in the scam.

Of these, 39 were transferred to Jharkhand after it was carved out from Bihar in November 2000.

Of the Rs 9.5 billion allegedly involved in all the cases, more than Rs.6 billion was swindled from Jharkhand over the years by officials of the animal husbandry department, suppliers and politicians.


So... let`s recap...

[HP, the urban middle-class does not bring about far-recahing changes; it merely embellishes and prunes. It rationalises, which is often the worst form of delusion.

I repeat, Laloo is vital. ]



Now, THAT`s raw intellect.

My dear FV #67,

Whoever told you I am outside India ????? Make assumption like you always did !!!!


I work in Bangalore.

#77

the classic bengali ``shingara`` will have a light flaky crust and a filling composed of aloo, gobi and motorshuti (mutter).

as opposed to the punjabi ``samosa`` with an oily crust and a hard lump of semi-petrified potato inside (which unfortunately seems to becoming the standard).

Ref HP #73

[Unless the Indian middleclass moves to the poor and finds a common ground with them the laloo phenomenon in India would continue. The first act probably would be to find a way to share the new wealth and not hang on to it.]

That is not happening even in the country you admire the most, the People`s Republic of China.

No, we are NOT going to share our wealth with any of these slackers. I will tell you how far we are prepared to go to keep thee slime in their place.

The Bihari and UP bhaiyyas breed like pigs. This naturally led to an increase in the number of seats they get in the Parliament. The southern states (with their effective population control policies) revolted and told the UP b@stards that they won`t get any more seats just for fornicating. Now that is the law. The representation in Parliament is frozen.

The Finance Commission (which allocated Federal funds to states) connsistently has been allocationg more money to UP and Bihar citing their backwardness and poverty. The richer states are asking why they should be penalized for their success. Watch for UP and Bihar getting no more than what they put in.

As to the individual middle- and upper middle-class folks, they don`t care for the poor. If we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, so can these idiots. If on the other hand, they want to spend their energy on Hindi as the Official language, they could keep talking to Lalloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh and Mayawati in Hindi. The rest of us are learning English, picking up C++ and Java (NOT the Rs. 80 a cup variety!) and improving our lives.

That photo with Rajendra Prasad... he is the man responsible for the backwardness of the Bimaru states. He cast the deciding vote that made Hindi the Official language. His pictures should be tarred and feathered!

You want to know how much we DON`T care for the poor? Recently, a neighboring lot of land went on sale in Chennai. The price was US$ 500,000 for a sixth of an acre, a rate of US$3 million an acre! No, we do NOT care about the poor in Chennai, let alone the frikking Biharis and UP bhaiyyas.

In case your heart bleeds for them, take the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh!

meiN ne lalkaara aur koi jawaab nahiN.

chalo, i will go off to drink my $1.95 americano, (which is what, almost rs. 81?!) and think of the last time i had a samosa without muTTer or gobi. come to think of it, have i ever had a samosa with gobi filling?!

*ponders*

FarzanaVersey #67

`` HP, the urban middle-class does not bring about far-recahing changes; it merely embellishes and prunes. It rationalises, which is often the worst form of delusion. ``

The urban middle class in Southern India have powered the IT revolution. They have changed the fortunes of many in India and all over the world. Deal with it !!!

Using the logic of your pea sized brain it could be that South Indians have been more insulated from the stupidity of Muslim cultures.

HP:

Why a mention of real India lights so many fires? Does the real India not exist?

What os the real India? Is the middle class not as real as the poor of Bihar?

The rest of your post makes good sense actually, esp about the middle class shielding itself from the poor. I would like to state that even that is not as clear cut as you imagine. You mention Bihar and UP as the states where the conflict is most pronounced.

I can see where you are coming from but would submit the picture is not exactly what you see. In fact, if you take rural / urban divide per se, Bihar is (was) actually fairly well developed compared to other states such as Orissa, Rajasthan, West Bengal etc.

The reason for that is that Bihar is very rich in minerals and is also home to a lot of heavy industry that was set up through the 50s and 60s. In fact, one reason the Naxalite movement never caught on to Bihar (but swept across Bengal) was very much due to the massive rural urban divide. Also, the whole empowerment thing that Lallu has spread is a hoax. The Yadavs were never disempowered. It was the Dalits who were more disempowerd, and no surprises, it is Dalits that consitute the bulk of the Maoists.

Coming back to the ``real`` India. We agree that we were both talking about the poor and the dispossesed when we mentioned ``Real`` India. Well, if Lallu actually represented the real India, heck, I would never have poured such vitriol against him. But the fact is, his whole empowerment story is a damn hoax. The only people who willingly fall for it are mainstream leftists who essentially do not want to rock the boat but want to oppose the BJP and Hindutva. That is their agenda. If you want to talk about the real India, then there is no political party representing that part of society in mainstream politics. It is the Maoists and Naxalites, ultra leftists who reject the Indian state as a middle class construct, who represent the ``real`` India and are fighting the state in Eastern UP, Bihar, Andhra etc. As I mentioned, they would kill Lall the first chance they get. Lallu is only fighting for himself and his political constituency, Muslims and Yadavs.

Re: # 73

hp:

i think you are mixing two things together here. These are poor/poverty and inefficiency/non-governance.

``It is what he represents; the other side of the divide, the ugly face in the mirror. ``

if you were to say that the commies remind us of the ugly face or sonias ``aam aadmi`` comments reminds us of them, then i would agree with you.

lalu doesn`t represent poor or their inability to tap the resources, he OTOH represents rule of corrupt/inefficient person who rules with the state along with his family. If he were to speak for the poor and the ill-possessed even the marginalised poor dalit/upper caster would vote for him whereas a rich yadav wouldn`t.

heave you ever heard him say anything for the poor? you won`t because if he says so that what was he doing for the poor in his state for the past 15 years? he has been saying that the center has always neglected bihar but doesn`t mention that bihar cannot even properly utilise the funds earmarked for it.

``The first act probably would be to find a way to share the new wealth and not hang on to it. ``

what do you mean by share the new wealth. i hope you don`t mean donating their monthly salary to the bihari poor, which is neither practical nor is going to resolve the problem.
currently in india most of the states are working towards attracting capital and trying to improve governance. Maharashtra, Gujarat, haryana, delhi, bengal, the southern states etc..
do you think they will divert all this investment to bihar just because they want lalu out?
capital goes where it is safe to invest and a greater chance for profit. Over the last decade capital has moved out of bihar. talented people have run as fast as they could to delhi, mumbai. instead of protecting the local businessess the yadav backed mafia extract ransom from them. under these circumstances who is going to invest in bihar?

when a company gets sick, the investors don`t keep on buying its shares but fire the CEO. thats what biharis have to do. if not, then sink with the boat.

people all over the country have been screaming for long. but lalu doesn`t undserstand/doesn`t care. at the end of the day he still goes to the comfort of the CMs bungalow.

Neti

“but in the end you don`t run the country based on what poor want and wish to have, it has to be run on practical basis”

Right on! But you get to the end by controlling the poor. First let me get this out of the way. Laloo is a symbol of the divide he is not the reason. He may even lose in bihar but that is immaterial. It is what he represents; the other side of the divide, the ugly face in the mirror. And that’s why he is the target of the middleclass.

The point I am making is that the Indian middleclass is failing in controlling the Indian politics and ceding to the poor which exacerbates the conflict in India. (Poor are always going to give you laloo type politicians for better or for...) And that in turn moves the middleclass well to the right of the center. That is a bad position to be in as the middleclass ideas and control of the politics in India’s case has to be from the center or slightly to the left of the center rather than the current position.

Unless the Indian middleclass moves to the poor and finds a common ground with them the laloo phenomenon in India would continue. The first act probably would be to find a way to share the new wealth and not hang on to it.

Farzana,
“HP, the urban middle-class does not bring about far-reaching changes; it merely embellishes and prunes. It rationalises, which is often the worst form of delusion.”

What does the middleclass embellishes and prunes? Ideas! And ideas have consequences.

There is no such thing as far-reaching changes. Far-reaching unfortunately, implies revolution and that never happens. Changes have to be set in motion and then they begin to take effect. It is a slow process and starts with ideas and they are always from the middleclass.

I know where you are coming from but that thought is now part of the history. I am using urban middleclass as an all inclusive expression.

DM,

Is laloo’s alternate in Bihar better than Laloo?

“he will never encourage modernisation of Bihar”

Why would he do that? With urban middleclass not ready to share anything with him, he would stay with his cocoon of safety. You put money in Bihar; he will change colors faster than chameleon.

HP, do you think laloo is vital? If so, are Modi or Thackrey vital in realpolitik democracy?

HP:

People do not criticise Laloo because he is casteist, unpolished or even corrupt; that description could be used for most politicians in India. His biggest failure is that Bihar is consistently rated as the worst governed state and it has been falling behind farther and farther compared to other states in socio-economic indices. In an era where even West Bengal govt. is keen to become competitive and attract investment, Laloo seems to be totally unconcerned about lifting Bihar`s poor masses. Some of my Bihari friends go as far as to suggest that he will never encourage modernisation of Bihar because he will lose his constitutents who would then no longer be satisfied by his opium of caste and feel-good politics alone.


stuka:
Laloo may have other faults but ignoring Biharis outside Bihar is not one of them. He has consistently championed their causes whether in Bombay, Delhi or Punjab. The trouble is that instead of developing jobs in Bihar, he brazenly tells people there to go to Delhi, Bombay or Punjab where the jobs are. I would rather have a chief minster of Bihar who creates opportunities for Biharis to return to their homeland instead of asking them to go elsewhere.

Re: # 69

its based on the electioneering slogan:

jab tak rahega samose main aloo
tab tak rahega bihar main laloo

Only thing I like about this article is it`s title.

Re: # 67

farzana:

``I cannot understand how those who sit in foreign countries can object to a Mumbai person (of course with her Rs. 80 coffee) speaking about another part of her own country. ``

we object because you are sitting in mumbai not in patna. why don`t you take a sabbatical and go to patna for a year and then write about laloo?

Ok, so as a so-called member of the pseudo intelligentsia, I have apparently created a controversy where none existed. Point is, I would have been happy to have most of you agree with me!

I cannot understand how those who sit in foreign countries can object to a Mumbai person (of course with her Rs. 80 coffee) speaking about another part of her own country. Mumbai is,ironically, an island that survives on migrants. Stuka is right in that the Bihari elsewhere cannot stand tall, but he misses the kernel: how others treat Biharis is not in the control of Laloo or any other leader. Dr Ambedkar could not ensure that, nor Jayaprakash Narayan.

I would like to hold forth a bit more on the JP movement. We had this absolutely wonderful leader who wanted to be in the background. It certainly made a difference as an ideology. But what did JP do for Bihar? Why do these `tall` leaders not dirty their hands in everyday politics?

Laloo has done so. Fine, he can do a lot more courageous things...and testing a religion, any religion, requires courage. And you have to start with your own. Mufi Mohd. Sayeed could do so with Islam in the Valley. I would find that courageous.

I have not said that all of India should be like Bihar, dost-mittarji. I have not even held up Bihar as a great example. For me, it is simply about one man who has changed the way we ought to look at rural society. Something that the Devi Lal model did not manage to do. Trying to create a fake Disneyland in Haryana and organising `chaupals` in five-star hotels where villagers could walk in wearing dhotis and chappals is a cop-out. For those who are not aware, this was what devi lal tried at the Ashoka in Delhi. I would say this was a gimmick.

Laloo does not have to try these stunts. Today, ads for multinational products use his accent and intonation and get-up too for selling their products. He is not marketing himself; they know his brand value.

There has been talk about how this `real India` is all crap. Unhfortunately, a large part of our population exists as crap. You want to turn your face away, feel free to do so. You want to believe that this is just nonsense that is dished out for the last so many years, then fool yourself. It is this nonsense that exists, that in fact is the backbone of our society.

HP, the urban middle-class does not bring about far-recahing changes; it merely embellishes and prunes. It rationalises, which is often the worst form of delusion.

I repeat, Laloo is vital.

Thanks to those who provided further tidbits and for the engaging dialogue...

PS: Someone wanted to know if I would still say the same things about Laloo if he hooked up with the BJP. NO. He would disappoint me today; I did support the JD despite it having the BJP as its ally...those days things were different.
- - -
godot: perhaps you have been lured by the leap of appreciating the underdog to the samosa as symbol of social awakening!
- - -

DRUMZ: Hope you are well. There are new people as always, and sometimes one wishes that the `older` lot like you reappeared and added some fun with your quirky look at things. Thanks for remembering me and the hellos have been conveyed.

Re: # 63

hp

many people are against lalu not because of his pro-poor stance, i don`t know if there are any. he is intellactually as brankrupt as he is in his knowledge about governance. the rich will still send there kids out of bihar for studies, the talended would move to greener pastures the only ones left ar ehis cronies and the victims who have no where to go.

some of his critics sometimes wonder, who wants to rule this brankrupt state afterall ?

Re: # 63

``I will take Laloo for Pakistan anytime.``

be my guest. i will recommed you for Bharat ratna

you are getting it wrong about laloo, laloo won`t win anywhere other than bihar, even in the neighbouring jharkhand (which was part of bihar) we have bjp gov.
i agree that there is a large divide between the urban rich and rural poor, but unlike the communists who promise an utopia and don`t deliver it, laloo doesn`t even understand what utopia is.
he doesn`t believe that development and governance are a part of state administration, period.

you are right that the govs. have been formed depending on what the majority poor wanted and many people (like reddy) took advantage of it. but in the end you don`t run the country based on what poor want and wish to have, it has to be run on practical basis. hence reddy had to cut down on free electricity. what good is it going to bring to sacrifice the hen which lays golden eggs to satiate the hunger of poor? in short term they will be fed but in long term they will starve.

Re: # 58

bongdongs -

``even the humble mutter and gobi has dissapeared from the Indian samosa over the last few years and you expect qeema?``

Well said and cleverly put!

Stuka,

Why a mention of real India lights so many fires? Does the real India not exist?
I don’t disagree that it is the urban middleclass that actually brings changes in the society and that is not restricted to India alone. While the middleclass is thinking and plotting changes, it has to deal with the real class which far exceeds in numbers and electoral strength.

I hope you understand when I say that democracy is also about imposing wills. Middleclass is supposed to lead the democracy as it is the system for the middleclass. Wherever they dominate the politics and governance, democracy is stable. In India, the Indian middleclass is in a serious conflict with the rural and urban poor and rural small landowners that are basically the backbone of all regional parties laloo included.

The reason India middleclass runs to the right of the center is that it is failing to control the democracy and politics in India. Congress and BJP take turns in controlling a few urban centers but lose out to the regional parties in the Indian heartland. Take AP for example, despite spectacular urban economic success, a small neglect at the real India changed the politics and now the state is scrambling to provide free power and quotas.

The failure in Bihar is non existence of urban centers. Both BJP and Congress lose to Laloo because they don’t have the base in bihar to vote for them. Laloo competes on what is important in the rural life and that is caste, minority and cronyism.

The congress went down in India because it has no base in the rural Indian states such as Bihar and UP anymore. BJP temporarily won because it did attract religious sentiments of the rural areas but that was not going to last long and it did not.
The contrast in India is so much evident. The middleclass instead of providing leadership to the poor and the small landowners is running away from them. While the urban middleclass is falling in love with meat and lamb the real India as Bonga said can’t find mutter and gobi for the samsosa. Sorry! but the NRIs are just parochial elements of the Indian society.

Laloo is the symbol of conflict between the uppity middleclass and the rural poor in India. The conflict is more pronounced in UP and Bihar because they are the most rural states in India.


Vivek,
My premise is not shaky though it does rely on the broad elements in the politics. Sitting here it would be hard to analyze at the smallest level. I used different elements of the coalition and not the exact elements. Again IT is just the prominent area. I know progress is being made in different areas too.

Jang,
Did I say Laloo is great? On the real politick level he is just another side of Thackery.

Neti,
I will take Laloo for Pakistan anytime. Reason: the Pak army needs a bare-knuckle opponent not the mild Manmohans we already have in plenty out there.

Re: # 31

drlokraj

its nice to know that apart from yadavs and muslims in bihar, a punjabi thinks lalu is the best thing to happen to bihar. why don`t you practise what you praech and move to el dorado that bihar is.
just don`t open a practise there (if you are a physician), the other day i heard that doctors from patna are running away as several of them were kidnapped (and a few shoot dead in their own clinic) for ransom.

laloo jokes


Laloos family planning policy..
``Don`t have more than two children in one year``


After having become the CM of Bihar, Laloo decides to pose for a picture.
To show he is down to earth CM he decides to pose along with a herd of
buffaloes and resting his elbows on the back of the cattle he poses for
the photo. Next day the photo appears front page of a newspaper. GUESS
THE CAPTION ``Laloo, third from left``

India`s regional politics: No laughing matter
By Sandeep Shenoy

A joke popular among the Indian Internet community reads something like this: During another Indo-Pak summit, a grim Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf asks Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to hand over Kashmir. Vajpayee grins and replies, ``I will give you Kashmir but only if you take Laloo Yadav`s Bihar with it.``

But the deeds of Laloo Yadav are no humor to the millions in one of India`s most backward and poor states, Bihar, who have continued to suffer from the controversial politician`s misrule over the past decade.

But before seeing a monster in Laloo Yadav, one needs to understand the dilemma facing Indian voters come election time. The voter must choose from a bevy of unpalatable candidates, each with a stunning track record of public disservice - everything imaginable, including murder. Given such stark choices, the candidate`s caste, creed or lingual identity becomes more important to the voter than their performance in office.

Laloo`s tenacity to remain at the helm as chief minister in Bihar must be credited to his Yadav caste and his loyal but impoverished Yadav-Muslim-Dalit vote bank which brings him to power no matter what misdeeds he commits.

When one judge of the state`s high court finally threw him in prison on corruption charges, his wife, a mother of eight and equally illiterate, Rabri Devi, took over the helm. Her acceptance speech to an audience of Bihar`s elite was just three words - ``Don`t cause trouble.`` - a curt warning to the opposition to back off. Laloo obviously ran the show from backstage in his VIP prison cell.

When another judge felt obliged to let him out on bail, he went home on a decorated elephant in pomp and gaiety fit for a hero. In the famous ``Fodder Scam`` alone, large funds allocated to feed cattle vanished without a trace, as did the lives of seven witnesses and co-accused. Laloo has proven himself above the law as he bends the judiciary and administration to suit his needs.

His Bihar state, meanwhile, suffers bankruptcy and lawlessness as he and his cronies in one scam after another loot the state`s coffers. More important, though, is the fact that the powers of such regional satraps (petty tyrants) reach as far as Delhi.

#49 by HP on October 13, 2005 9:27am PT


1 million IT jobs are not going to change the world for 1000 million people overnite. Laloo can’t do much there.


So that`s why Pakiland`s IT exports are a measly 40 million$/yr...IT isn`t going to help poverty, so why bother?

#57

ha! ha! even the humble mutter and gobi has dissapeared from the Indian samosa over the last few years and you expect qeema godot-mian?

Re: # 54

bongdongs -

Switch to qeema in samosas. It tastes much better than aloo and will also break the spell per your poem.

bongi #54

thank you for the explanation. ab tak meiN soch rahi thi, ye samosey maiN aloo hona koi buri cheez hai?!

HP,
Your understanding of Indian politics is also a bit shaky. Lalu raj is most opposed by the dalits, and under Lalu there has been no alliance between the OBCs and dalits, infact the differences have only increased.

To your info, though you are right about excessive hype given to India growing, at the same time growth is not restricted to IT alone.

i think we should explain the title for Pakistani interactors. It comes from a poll slogan of the RJD (Laloo`s party)

Jab tak samose mein rahega aloo
Bihar mein rahega Laloo

#49 noonne disagrees about laloo being a politician..but why is laloo so great while bal thakrey is not?

Re: # 48

Stuka Ji. You traveled to my part of Punjab? I am very near Choa Saidan Shah…. On the other side of River Jelhum from there. The local village politics in rural Punjab are a way different from Lahore politics. But I see your point. Despite all the negative coverage it gets, I like Bihari politics... very colorful and lively, the way it is meant to be.

Re: # 49

HP Sahib, you should visit Punjab sometime. Putna Shutna bhool jao gay. The underlying dynamics are the same in both places.

``. He has become a symbol of hate for the Indian rightwing and uppity middleclass because he presents the real India. An India this NRI, pseudo nationalist and Hindutva admirers don’t like to see as their face is clearly ugly in the mirror.
``

Load of crap. Why are the Jatt politicians of Punjab not villified the same way? Or the Jats of Haryana? Is Om Prakash Chautala a fricking English speaking suit wearing Sahib? And the same ``right wing and uppitty middle class`` that you villify voted for Jayaprakash Narayan, a true man of the soil, against Indira Gandhi. Not a single politician has damaged the socio-political fabric of a state as much as Lallu.

You and Farzana are playing the ``real India`` game. Discounting the urban middle class and pointing to the villagers as the real India simply because it is the Urban Middle class that articulates the tough questions on infrastructure and governance, issues that are harder to provide for compared to chimeras like ``honour`` and ``place in the sun``. The British tried this game for a couple of hundred years, stating that that the Congress middle class was disgruntled but they were here for the welfare of the poor and rural people, ``the real India``, while shafting the real India like it was no one`s business.

You choose to view Indian politics through the prism of Middle Class = Hindutva Bigots = BJP Supporters, therefore all else are good. Good for you, but your perceptions are very far from reality.

With the low level of interaction here one can tell why Laloo is so popular in Bihar. Jassi Parja waisa Raja.

People supposedly brought up in the largest democracy of the world don’t have a basic understanding of politics and social factors that bring politicians to the fore.

But first, the very people who support free market and oppose quota would be the first ones to bring Rs.80 tea or coffee up for discussion. Free market means opportunity and people who make good in free market conditions should be admired for spending their wealth for the trickled down effect. I admire every single person who has the ability to make money and then spend it the way they like. Only fcking poor go to dhaba for tea, people who have made it are never found in the horrible joints like that.
They should admire people who have the money to spend and not be jealous of them.

Let’s talk about Laloo.
Middle of the road and moderate politics is all about building coalitions and expanding economic base of the coalition. How many elections ideological groups win?
In India, days of old school Nehruian politics are long gone. If you can’t build a coalition you cannot succeed. It is true for BJP and it is true for Laloo, mayavati and Malyam too. When BJP tries to make an alliance with Dalits and lower caste then they are good. Laloo is successful in doing that, so he is bad.

People quote crime rate numbers as if the politicians have anything to do with them.

90% of the murders are personal matters, 95% of felonies are individual. How in the heck a politician or even a political party can control individual minds? Better economy never brings down individual crimes.

Despite all the tall claims a majority of Indian states are suffering economically. Bihar and UP are the worst. It will take a miracle to change things there and there is no Indian government at any level that is capable of miracles. Economic prosperity is achieved by grinding it out or colonizing other nations, physically or by capturing markets. 1 million IT jobs are not going to change the world for 1000 million people overnite. Laloo can’t do much there. He has to create opportunities for his people lacking that he falsely empowers them. He makes them feel good. This sure is not going to long last but that is opportunity politics.

What about corruption? Politicians have to pay for politics. Elections and political parties cost money to run. Out of a 1000 crore annual budget, a small cut for politics should be legal. Most politicians, especially in India, are from the middleclass. Middleclasses abhor corruption but they do it to pay for the expenses that come with the territory. Make the avenues to collect funds legal and the corruption would be minimized.

Rightwing Indians hate Laloo for being aggressive in his politics. He is a typical village idiot who has made it big in a horrible political system and now he is thumbing his nose at the so-called pillars of moral, social and religious values.

He is no different than any politicians who have emerged from rural backgrounds with support rooted in the rural communities or city slums. He has built his coalition and he will help his coalition. In jobs and in any economic opportunity and that’s what the uppity middleclass hates. He has become a symbol of hate for the Indian rightwing and uppity middleclass because he presents the real India. An India this NRI, pseudo nationalist and Hindutva admirers don’t like to see as their face is clearly ugly in the mirror.

PS
Kulharee there is no comparison between Bihar and Pakistan Punjab. I would recommend you to please read more about bihar.

Kulharee:

I am sorry but I do not agree with the comparison to Pakistani Punjab either. Let us look at past 15 years in west punjab and bihar.

In west Punjab, during BB`s earlier rule, NS was CM. Subsequent to NS, Shabaz Sharif became the CM. Neither of them alienated a specific constitutency and neither`s appeal was limited to vote bank calculations. One can probably say that more for the Chaudharies of Gujarat but not as much for Sharif brothers. No doubt, PPP is the only truly national party, but in Punjab itself, PML (before that Islamic Jamhoori Ittehad) had popular support. Now, the tussle is between King`s Party and PML and that too is really personality based. I do not see en bloc vote of Arains for NS / SS and Gujjars for Chaudharies or anything like that. In short, there is horse trading at the top, but there is not a large scale fracturing of Punjabi community on ethnic or caste basis.

Let us look at development. I have had the good fortune of travelling by road from Lahore to Chakwal side, choa saidan shah, ketas etc. I have seen the infrastructure there. It is more akin to Indian Punjab and miles ahead of Bihar. In fact, major criticism of NS / SS is that they spent too much on motorway, but at lleast they created infrastructure. In fact, forget motorway, Ii travelled through side roads to Bhaun and Ketas. You see tube wells, decent roads etc. no patch on Bihar.

re #40
democracy will get rid of them.

You are making a big assumption here that Laloo will adhere to the norms of democracy when he loses an election. He did lose the last election in Bihar but didn`t want to give up power, hence we are having the spectacle of repeat elections and Supreme Court telling the central government that its actions are patently unconstitutional.
Based on limited anecdotal evidence of some of my relatives in Patna, Bihar is well on its way to West Bengal model of democracy. When they go to vote, they are politely told that their votes have already been cast.

Dear Farzana:

It is a sad day when an Indian wishes the whole of the country to be turned into a Bihar. The only good thing that Laloo did in his political life was to confront Advani and show how to deal with a bully. But that one event does not qualify him to be a true leader.

``How many politicians have the courage to appoint Harijan priests and shankaracharyas? Were these gimmicks and did they not have any impact at all? I think in both instances Yadav wanted to test the Hindu religion.``

It takes no courage whatsoever to test a religion the rage and violence of whose adherents is restricted to defenseless people and that too with the help of the police. Jayalalitha showed a lot more courage by unceremoniously throwing into prison the most reverred Hindu religious leader in the country, charging him with murder and denying him bail. Now, if Laloo was to insist that Quran be recited in Urdu/Hindi in masjids, or that women lead the Jumma prayers, or that Madrassas be banned from teaching about dar-ul-harb, violent jihad by civilians or that loyalty to Umma is greater than loyalty to Bihar/India, that would be true test of religion and Laloo`s courage.

Re: # 44


Yaar Putr Stuka, I was talking about Pakistani Punjab. Laloo epitomizes what’s wrong with the developing world. Bihar Like Punjab (Pakistani Punjab…ok?) is an agrarian society… all Laloo wanted was to provide a little dignity to himself and his family (like Punjabi politicians) but he got sucked into Caste wave… just like Professional Punjabi Politicians (I wouldn’t name any caz you won’t know who they are – I grew up with them). Just like for the past decade or so, Bihar`s fortunes have been intricately woven around Laloo, in Punjab that’s been the case with Sharif and Chauhdry families. Just like Laloo rode the crest of a caste wave, Punjabis did so by riding a “victim” wave. Just like becoming an opposition leader he went on to becoming a chief minister, so did Chauhdhry. There are a lot of similarities. The reason Laloo case is obvious is because the backdrop is shiny and clear (i.e., democratic India) whereas it is bloody and shytty (dictatorship) in Pakistan. Laloo wanted to establish his own raj (like the Chauhdhris) and he was helped by the Congress (I) just like Chauhdhris and Shareef by the earlier Dictatorships… Laloo became a hero (same with the Punjabis) was idiolized by the poor (same) and that made him powerful to dictate terms in Delhi (same happened in Pakistan)… There are way too many similarities in the two cases. Ask me some other time.

The only difference perhaps is that we don’t have a Rabri Devi… but we are working on it.

``I am particularly interested in Bihar because the story of Bihar is 113% similar to the story of the rural Pujanb – my interest in it is for professional purposes and as a former research assistant of perhaps the best expert on Bihari political economy.
``

Kulharee:

How is the story of Bihar the story of Punjab? Sure, there are some similarities...Lallu uses the Muslim Yadav vote just as Akalis wooed the Jatt vote and Congress / BJP the Hindu vote. Sure, there is corruption...as in everywhere else.

But that is not the issue. Ultimalty, even the corrupt rulers of other Indian states do offer some form of governance. Jayalalitha may be more corrupt than Lallu, gets her fair share of brickbats and yet has improved the quality of infrastruture, governance and investment. Tamil Nadu is more prosperous today than it was 20 years ago. Same goes for Punjab, inspite of corruption and communal politics.

Bihar is one state that is LESS prosperous, where the infrastructure is worse than it was in 1985. It is the height oif Chutzpah to praise a man who created this situation with rhetorical statements like ``the meek shall have legroom``.

``And even if the meek do not inherit the earth they have enough legroom to stand tall.
``

Great. Let them stand tall and starve to death then. This whole article is a joke on the people of Bihar. In any case that state was riven by class politics. Lallu made it worse.

As far as standing tall is concerned, yes, Biharis stand tall every time they are beaten up in Bombay for stealing jobs. Biharis stand tall when they are kicked out of Assam for being unwanted. Biharis stand tall every time they are at the recieving end of violence from Punjab Police. In fact, in the movie Mahaul Theek Hai, Jaspal Bhatti even finds humor in the casual thrashings Biharis recieve at the hands of the Punjab Police. In fact, outside of Bangladeshi Illegals, I cannot think of any community that is looked upon with more contempt.

There is however another force that truly teaches the meek to stand tall, unlike Lallu the scammer. It is the Maoist cadre and they would kill Lallu if they had the opportunity.

Laloo is a purely homegrown politician, live with it. He is not a coconut like Imran Khan and likes. The beauty about Indian democracy is that nothing is set in stone. Biharis are more than capable of electing someone even more screwed up. Give em a chance.

I am particularly interested in Bihar because the story of Bihar is 113% similar to the story of the rural Pujanb – my interest in it is for professional purposes and as a former research assistant of perhaps the best expert on Bihari political economy.

To you Laloo may be a joke, but have you ever considered what a joke you inconsequential fallow may be in his eyes? Think about it. He is enjoying a high life and you are moaning here.

Indians will love this photo. It has a Bihari in it it :)

http://photo.indoindians.com/66198-42.html