Samosey mein aloo: why not Laloo?
Farzana Versey October 12, 2005
#98 Posted by dost_mittar on October 15, 2005 6:47:21 pm
Re.#95:
The attitude towards Laloo can not be understood without people`s attitude towards the BJP. Some of us secularists who oppose the BJP do so because we do not like its political agenda or some aspects of it, but we nevertheless regard it as a legitimate political party which has the right to pursue its political agenda as long as it stays within the constitutional framework. We do not like Laloo even though he stood up for secularism when others faltered. There are however others, mainly but not exclusively Muslims, who think that they are in a do-or-die struggle with the BJP; if they have to choose between the BJP and the devil, they would unhestitatingly choose the latter, even if it means India itself is destroyed; a more charitable interpretation of their position would be that they think that India would be destroyed unless the BJP is. We would like the BJP to shed its anti-muslim bias and become a moderate party, more along the lines of the Republican Party in the US. But those who want to destroy it have no such desire; to them people like Vajpayee are their worst enemies because they can lull people into a false sense of reassurance and make the party more palatable to many people who do not like the ugly face of the BJP represented by the likes of Modi.
I think that these people are betting on the wrong horse. Laloo is merely an opportunist politician whose anti-BJP stance is merely his ticket to the Yadav-Muslim alliance in Bihar. If tomorrow he gets into the position of being a king-maker in Delhi by supporting the BJP, he would do the same that Chandrababu Naidu, Mamta Bannerjee, George Fernandez and Farooq Abdullah did before him.
The attitude towards Laloo can not be understood without people`s attitude towards the BJP. Some of us secularists who oppose the BJP do so because we do not like its political agenda or some aspects of it, but we nevertheless regard it as a legitimate political party which has the right to pursue its political agenda as long as it stays within the constitutional framework. We do not like Laloo even though he stood up for secularism when others faltered. There are however others, mainly but not exclusively Muslims, who think that they are in a do-or-die struggle with the BJP; if they have to choose between the BJP and the devil, they would unhestitatingly choose the latter, even if it means India itself is destroyed; a more charitable interpretation of their position would be that they think that India would be destroyed unless the BJP is. We would like the BJP to shed its anti-muslim bias and become a moderate party, more along the lines of the Republican Party in the US. But those who want to destroy it have no such desire; to them people like Vajpayee are their worst enemies because they can lull people into a false sense of reassurance and make the party more palatable to many people who do not like the ugly face of the BJP represented by the likes of Modi.
I think that these people are betting on the wrong horse. Laloo is merely an opportunist politician whose anti-BJP stance is merely his ticket to the Yadav-Muslim alliance in Bihar. If tomorrow he gets into the position of being a king-maker in Delhi by supporting the BJP, he would do the same that Chandrababu Naidu, Mamta Bannerjee, George Fernandez and Farooq Abdullah did before him.
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#97 Posted by soysauce on October 15, 2005 11:28:55 am
tvarad, that was an insightful post.
I do take issue with you that there common man does not have the opportunity. It`s just that politics also is a business more so than in the west and it presents the easiest opportunity. I am not sure the playing field is any more level in the west. There, however, is the will to ensure laws are obeyed. That`s what`s missing in india at large.
Regarding the Brits, there is this myth among the generation of our parents that they were incorruptible. What happened was the corruption of the british officers did not percolate down to lower ranks to the same extent. Now it`s all browh sahibs at the top and at the bottom and the lines are really blurred.
I do take issue with you that there common man does not have the opportunity. It`s just that politics also is a business more so than in the west and it presents the easiest opportunity. I am not sure the playing field is any more level in the west. There, however, is the will to ensure laws are obeyed. That`s what`s missing in india at large.
Regarding the Brits, there is this myth among the generation of our parents that they were incorruptible. What happened was the corruption of the british officers did not percolate down to lower ranks to the same extent. Now it`s all browh sahibs at the top and at the bottom and the lines are really blurred.
#96 Posted by ajeya on October 15, 2005 10:34:21 am
Re: #94 by Grey Cells Extravaganza
[A Laloo does not do that; he is not deified. ]
Bihari Babu`s Bluff
Delhi Diary by Vinod Mehta
OutlookIndia.com
At what point does a ``national treasure`` become a ``national liability``? Pseudo-secularists like me have blindly defended and deified Laloo Prasad Yadav for his courageous, single-minded fight against communal forces. We pretended that the havoc he has caused in his home state was forgivable, if not understandable, given the caste antagonisms and social fabric of Bihar. His wit, buffoonery and rustic horseplay, we said, was a tribute to grassroots Indian politics which had thrown up a genuine son of the soil. Torn as he was between courts, Yadav consolidation and criminal MLAs/MPs, we overlooked his clear mendacity. When he made his simple-minded wife the chief minister, we said, ``Poor man, who else can he trust?`` Meanwhile, Bihar fell off the map of India and its galloping anarchy did not merit discussion because, in a sense, Bihar was not part of India. Bihar was Bihar. I don`t absolve myself or Outlook from spreading the aforementioned logic. In the last 15 years, consequently, we have allowed Laloo a very easy ride.
When he was chief minister, his potential for mischief was limited. Bihar had reached the point of no return, so what could Laloo do to further aggravate its condition? We were insulated from his heavy hand. Sadly, he is now out of power in Bihar and a cabinet minister to boot. Thus, his imprint currently has national implications—and with Patna out of his grasp he has time on his hands not to entertain us but to frighten us. There`s no rule he will not break, no institution he will not denigrate, no charge he will not fabricate to achieve his twin objectives: win back the gaddi in Patna and mount onslaughts against the BJP. His behaviour at the railway crash site in Gujarat where the deceased were swiftly forgotten and all media attention diverted to publicise an exaggerated ``death threat``, and last week`s shameful assault on one of India`s proudest constitutional bodies—the Election Commission—should make all of us who champion him think again. Of course, he has 24 MPs and could bring down the UPA, but he knows what will follow will ensure that he stays permanently in jail. Laloo has nowhere to go. It`s time we called his bluff.
Mr L.P. Yadav is an extraordinarily shrewd and intelligent politician. No one, not even his opponents, doubt that. Someone needs to take him aside and gently but firmly remind him that he is fast alienating his support among India`s secular middle class. Who is the person who can whisper sense into Laloo`s ear? I don`t have a clue.
[A Laloo does not do that; he is not deified. ]
Bihari Babu`s Bluff
Delhi Diary by Vinod Mehta
OutlookIndia.com
At what point does a ``national treasure`` become a ``national liability``? Pseudo-secularists like me have blindly defended and deified Laloo Prasad Yadav for his courageous, single-minded fight against communal forces. We pretended that the havoc he has caused in his home state was forgivable, if not understandable, given the caste antagonisms and social fabric of Bihar. His wit, buffoonery and rustic horseplay, we said, was a tribute to grassroots Indian politics which had thrown up a genuine son of the soil. Torn as he was between courts, Yadav consolidation and criminal MLAs/MPs, we overlooked his clear mendacity. When he made his simple-minded wife the chief minister, we said, ``Poor man, who else can he trust?`` Meanwhile, Bihar fell off the map of India and its galloping anarchy did not merit discussion because, in a sense, Bihar was not part of India. Bihar was Bihar. I don`t absolve myself or Outlook from spreading the aforementioned logic. In the last 15 years, consequently, we have allowed Laloo a very easy ride.
When he was chief minister, his potential for mischief was limited. Bihar had reached the point of no return, so what could Laloo do to further aggravate its condition? We were insulated from his heavy hand. Sadly, he is now out of power in Bihar and a cabinet minister to boot. Thus, his imprint currently has national implications—and with Patna out of his grasp he has time on his hands not to entertain us but to frighten us. There`s no rule he will not break, no institution he will not denigrate, no charge he will not fabricate to achieve his twin objectives: win back the gaddi in Patna and mount onslaughts against the BJP. His behaviour at the railway crash site in Gujarat where the deceased were swiftly forgotten and all media attention diverted to publicise an exaggerated ``death threat``, and last week`s shameful assault on one of India`s proudest constitutional bodies—the Election Commission—should make all of us who champion him think again. Of course, he has 24 MPs and could bring down the UPA, but he knows what will follow will ensure that he stays permanently in jail. Laloo has nowhere to go. It`s time we called his bluff.
Mr L.P. Yadav is an extraordinarily shrewd and intelligent politician. No one, not even his opponents, doubt that. Someone needs to take him aside and gently but firmly remind him that he is fast alienating his support among India`s secular middle class. Who is the person who can whisper sense into Laloo`s ear? I don`t have a clue.
#95 Posted by ajeya on October 15, 2005 10:27:53 am
Now THIS is a man with a conscience:
Bihari Babu`s Bluff
Delhi Diary by Vinod Mehta
OutlookIndia.com
At what point does a ``national treasure`` become a ``national liability``? Pseudo-secularists like me have blindly defended and deified Laloo Prasad Yadav for his courageous, single-minded fight against communal forces. We pretended that the havoc he has caused in his home state was forgivable, if not understandable, given the caste antagonisms and social fabric of Bihar. His wit, buffoonery and rustic horseplay, we said, was a tribute to grassroots Indian politics which had thrown up a genuine son of the soil. Torn as he was between courts, Yadav consolidation and criminal MLAs/MPs, we overlooked his clear mendacity. When he made his simple-minded wife the chief minister, we said, ``Poor man, who else can he trust?`` Meanwhile, Bihar fell off the map of India and its galloping anarchy did not merit discussion because, in a sense, Bihar was not part of India. Bihar was Bihar. I don`t absolve myself or Outlook from spreading the aforementioned logic. In the last 15 years, consequently, we have allowed Laloo a very easy ride.
When he was chief minister, his potential for mischief was limited. Bihar had reached the point of no return, so what could Laloo do to further aggravate its condition? We were insulated from his heavy hand. Sadly, he is now out of power in Bihar and a cabinet minister to boot. Thus, his imprint currently has national implications—and with Patna out of his grasp he has time on his hands not to entertain us but to frighten us. There`s no rule he will not break, no institution he will not denigrate, no charge he will not fabricate to achieve his twin objectives: win back the gaddi in Patna and mount onslaughts against the BJP. His behaviour at the railway crash site in Gujarat where the deceased were swiftly forgotten and all media attention diverted to publicise an exaggerated ``death threat``, and last week`s shameful assault on one of India`s proudest constitutional bodies—the Election Commission—should make all of us who champion him think again. Of course, he has 24 MPs and could bring down the UPA, but he knows what will follow will ensure that he stays permanently in jail. Laloo has nowhere to go. It`s time we called his bluff.
Mr L.P. Yadav is an extraordinarily shrewd and intelligent politician. No one, not even his opponents, doubt that. Someone needs to take him aside and gently but firmly remind him that he is fast alienating his support among India`s secular middle class. Who is the person who can whisper sense into Laloo`s ear? I don`t have a clue.
#93 Posted by tvarad on October 15, 2005 3:15:44 am
When I was growing up in the late 60`s & 70`s my Dad used to claim that India would have been much better off if it had still been under the British. Fed on Indian nationalism in school, the youthful, naive idealist in me could never figure out why someone preferred schackles to freedom.
A few decades on, it dawns on me that what the common man needs is law, order and opportunity. That is all my Dad, a hardworking self-made man was asking for. If such an environment is provided, then roti, kapda aur makaan (RKM) will follow.
The trouble with the Lalloos, Mulayams and Mayawatis is that they promise RKM & that too to their narrow political base and preach that law, order and opportunity are luxuries. They arbitrage societal differences in the finest traditions of a currency or metals broker on Wall Street for their own ends & like George Soros, claim that they are doing it for the overall good. But like George Soros, they are nothing but parasites.
Coming back to my Dad`s postulate that India would have been better off under the British; I sometimes wonder if he was very far off the mark. Did we get our independence at the wrong time? After all, due to the pied pipers of socialism, we did miss out on the benefits of the world transforming itself from a set of insular societies to a global village (warts and all). When the world figured out that an equitable society comes from growing the economic pie, our political mandarins were busy carving it up forgetting that if it was not grown, there wouldn`t be much of it to go around.
When we are given a level playing field as in the West, we not only flourish but excel. Couldn`t we have emulated this in India, had the barriers to meaningful advancement not been made so high due to faulty social engineering?
A few decades on, it dawns on me that what the common man needs is law, order and opportunity. That is all my Dad, a hardworking self-made man was asking for. If such an environment is provided, then roti, kapda aur makaan (RKM) will follow.
The trouble with the Lalloos, Mulayams and Mayawatis is that they promise RKM & that too to their narrow political base and preach that law, order and opportunity are luxuries. They arbitrage societal differences in the finest traditions of a currency or metals broker on Wall Street for their own ends & like George Soros, claim that they are doing it for the overall good. But like George Soros, they are nothing but parasites.
Coming back to my Dad`s postulate that India would have been better off under the British; I sometimes wonder if he was very far off the mark. Did we get our independence at the wrong time? After all, due to the pied pipers of socialism, we did miss out on the benefits of the world transforming itself from a set of insular societies to a global village (warts and all). When the world figured out that an equitable society comes from growing the economic pie, our political mandarins were busy carving it up forgetting that if it was not grown, there wouldn`t be much of it to go around.
When we are given a level playing field as in the West, we not only flourish but excel. Couldn`t we have emulated this in India, had the barriers to meaningful advancement not been made so high due to faulty social engineering?
#91 Posted by HP on October 14, 2005 11:10:19 am
#78 by harimau
Not being an Indian, I have no dog in the `` The Bihari and UP bhaiyyas breed like pigs/ etc`` food fight. I think you really have no choice in NOT sharing wealth with “these slackers”. In fact, You are already doing it. The central taxation system and if you are a contributor to it, would not ask from you or a majority of Indians how tax rupee is distributed and that to me is the biggest flaw in a federal system.
I doubt that the PRC (china) was/is my favorite country. Incidentally, it is a country without personal taxation. One example- I wish the largest capitalist country in the world, the US, could follow.
The communists and socialists are gone but their ideals and wet dreams still dominate the world. Who would have believed that the US corporations would look like government owned corporations when they asked for government legislation for changing the bankruptcy laws.
Instead of choosing good business sense, corporations are choosing government legislations to run their businesses. Most of the Western countries look like welfare states including the US and at this point it is hard for me to say how long they will continue to travel the “socialist path”. India is also a welfare state and no matter how much we talk about free economy, it is constantly being undermined by the socialists morphed into fiscal geniuses.
That aside, I think the longer you wait in sharing more with bihar, UP, Orissa, Bengal and many other basket cases in the union, harder it would get to keep the high engines of the economy rolling. The choice is yours to make.
“The price was US$ 500,000 for a sixth of an acre, a rate of US$3 million an acre!”
Still can’t beat the 56th st. midtown, Manhattan. Keep working on it thoug!
Stuka, Neti
“But the fact is, his whole empowerment story is a damn hoax.”
Both you and Neti make similar points and you would agree with me that people who support Laloo in bihar don’t buy your line of argument.
When I mentioned the real India, poor is just one element of it. There are several sections of the Indian economy that conflict with the recent middleclass gains in India.
Laloo is not representing poor. I agree with that but his coalition consists of mostly poor and he cannot avoid talking about the poor though that may not be his political stand.
If you remove Laloo’s aggression and his convoluted opposition to BJP, how would he differ from Malayam Singh or Mayavati in his politics? Your beef with him is his opposition to the BJP, the reason he is liked by the left is his opposition to the BJP.
Let me ask you and Neti too, if Laloo had allowed Advani Rath Brigade in Bihar, would you still be so fiercely opposed to him considering that most of the regional politics in India(in almost all states) is based on identical elements (caste/Zaat, minority, corruption and cronyism) championed by Laloo?
#92 Posted by Netizen on October 14, 2005 12:02:23 pm
Re: # 91
hp:
``If you remove Laloo’s aggression and his convoluted opposition to BJP, how would he differ from Malayam Singh or Mayavati in his politics? Your beef with him is his opposition to the BJP, the reason he is liked by the left is his opposition to the BJP. ``
Mulayam is also against bjp, though he is against congress too, whereas lalu is pro-congress to some extent.
for mulayam the biggest threat is not bjp but congress and mayawati. mulayam siezed power not from bjp base but from congress (muslims) and congress is now makig noise about mis-rule by mulayam.
alao, mulayam had a bitter fight with mayawati too.
lalu won`t differ much from mulayam and mayawati w.r.t. the political base where he differs is that neither mulayam nor mayawati has presided over the ruin of u.p. for as long as 15 years and still think of governing. The law and order is bad but not as worse as bihar.
There are many more parties who oppose bjp’s communal politics, like congress, naidu, AIADMK, DMK, Chautala, Ajit singh, Sharad Pawar but none has been so ineffective for so long. All that is asked of him is to provide better law and order, better infrastructure, good educational facilities, good environment for investment. He has not been able to do that and will never do that. That’s the beef not for his opposition to rath yatra.
“Let me ask you and Neti too, if Laloo had allowed Advani Rath Brigade in Bihar, would you still be so fiercely opposed to him considering that most of the regional politics in India(in almost all states) is based on identical elements (caste/Zaat, minority, corruption and cronyism) championed by Laloo?”
Yes, because during his 15 years of mis-rule he has converted bihar into his own fiefdom. Uma bharati was one of the protagonists of ram mandir. But if she and bjp leadership are not able to deliver their promise of bijli-makan-pani in Madhya pradesh, then its better for them to sit in the opposition benches next time. Compare this to lalus 15 year of converting bihar into a big tabela (cow shed).
hp:
``If you remove Laloo’s aggression and his convoluted opposition to BJP, how would he differ from Malayam Singh or Mayavati in his politics? Your beef with him is his opposition to the BJP, the reason he is liked by the left is his opposition to the BJP. ``
Mulayam is also against bjp, though he is against congress too, whereas lalu is pro-congress to some extent.
for mulayam the biggest threat is not bjp but congress and mayawati. mulayam siezed power not from bjp base but from congress (muslims) and congress is now makig noise about mis-rule by mulayam.
alao, mulayam had a bitter fight with mayawati too.
lalu won`t differ much from mulayam and mayawati w.r.t. the political base where he differs is that neither mulayam nor mayawati has presided over the ruin of u.p. for as long as 15 years and still think of governing. The law and order is bad but not as worse as bihar.
There are many more parties who oppose bjp’s communal politics, like congress, naidu, AIADMK, DMK, Chautala, Ajit singh, Sharad Pawar but none has been so ineffective for so long. All that is asked of him is to provide better law and order, better infrastructure, good educational facilities, good environment for investment. He has not been able to do that and will never do that. That’s the beef not for his opposition to rath yatra.
“Let me ask you and Neti too, if Laloo had allowed Advani Rath Brigade in Bihar, would you still be so fiercely opposed to him considering that most of the regional politics in India(in almost all states) is based on identical elements (caste/Zaat, minority, corruption and cronyism) championed by Laloo?”
Yes, because during his 15 years of mis-rule he has converted bihar into his own fiefdom. Uma bharati was one of the protagonists of ram mandir. But if she and bjp leadership are not able to deliver their promise of bijli-makan-pani in Madhya pradesh, then its better for them to sit in the opposition benches next time. Compare this to lalus 15 year of converting bihar into a big tabela (cow shed).
#89 Posted by stuka on October 14, 2005 8:18:01 am
Dr Lok Raj:
What is a mass leader? Should we consider that Nehru was not a mass leader because he was a brown sahib? And Chiman Chor of Gujarat was a mass leader because he calculated the KHAM alliance (Khatri, Harijan, Ahir, Muslim) and therefore stayed on to power.
Farzana asks: ``But what did JP do for Bihar? Why do these `tall` leaders not dirty their hands in everyday politics? ``
JP was the catalyst of Bihar politics. His Bhudaan movement had a huge impact on feudalism, leading to land redistribution on a moral basis. He was very much a mass movement leader cut in the same socialist mould and unlike Lallu he did not play caste politics.
How is Lallu different from Ballu then? One plays caste politics, the other of ethnic identity and religion. But I doubt that any Iindian intellectual would be oh so charitable to Ballu as they are to Lallu.
What is a mass leader? Should we consider that Nehru was not a mass leader because he was a brown sahib? And Chiman Chor of Gujarat was a mass leader because he calculated the KHAM alliance (Khatri, Harijan, Ahir, Muslim) and therefore stayed on to power.
Farzana asks: ``But what did JP do for Bihar? Why do these `tall` leaders not dirty their hands in everyday politics? ``
JP was the catalyst of Bihar politics. His Bhudaan movement had a huge impact on feudalism, leading to land redistribution on a moral basis. He was very much a mass movement leader cut in the same socialist mould and unlike Lallu he did not play caste politics.
How is Lallu different from Ballu then? One plays caste politics, the other of ethnic identity and religion. But I doubt that any Iindian intellectual would be oh so charitable to Ballu as they are to Lallu.
#87 Posted by antihypochrist on October 14, 2005 1:48:08 am
#86,
There`s no confusion Sir....
Laloo`s histrionics can fool the illiterate masses, and the old school. Laloo is an icon and bared hypocrisy that exists amids us, according to the lady. Why is it that I cannot say the same about Bal Thakeray?
There`s no confusion Sir....
Laloo`s histrionics can fool the illiterate masses, and the old school. Laloo is an icon and bared hypocrisy that exists amids us, according to the lady. Why is it that I cannot say the same about Bal Thakeray?
#86 Posted by drlokraj on October 14, 2005 1:38:40 am
the confusion seems to be regarding Laloo as a person/politician and Laloo as a phenomenon.What FV (to my mind) tried to focuss is Laloo as a phenomenon.I refered to Mulayam and Mayawati in the same context.
The emergence of Laloo on Indian political scene was a mass leader..he rose among masses from being one of them, and that is the majoer difference.I dont say he has not acquired the colours of typical Indian politicians.
Revolutions dont happen overnight.Yes, the base of communists/Maoists is the landless dalits of Bihar, but are all the backwards of Bihar landowners, or are they being perceived as class enemies by the proliterate class of Bihar? Is laloo being perceived as representative of the burgeoise or the feudal class by the maoists.All the armed attacks by maoists have beemn against the Ranvir sena or other such private senas of the Feudal lords.
Someone suggested me to set up medical practice in Bihar to experience the ground realities.If I shift to Bihar, that oes not mean I have to do only medical practice and make money-Punjab is more than good for that. There are so many other things to do in Bihar, and believe me, there are lot of doctors already working..a la Che Guevara style.
Phenonenon of Laloo means people starting to recognize their strengths...they dont have to depend on ``imported ``leaders who even dont understand their language.......and if Laloo (person)keeps going the same way,the Laoo(phenomenon) will wipe him off.....and same is true of other two.
The emergence of Laloo on Indian political scene was a mass leader..he rose among masses from being one of them, and that is the majoer difference.I dont say he has not acquired the colours of typical Indian politicians.
Revolutions dont happen overnight.Yes, the base of communists/Maoists is the landless dalits of Bihar, but are all the backwards of Bihar landowners, or are they being perceived as class enemies by the proliterate class of Bihar? Is laloo being perceived as representative of the burgeoise or the feudal class by the maoists.All the armed attacks by maoists have beemn against the Ranvir sena or other such private senas of the Feudal lords.
Someone suggested me to set up medical practice in Bihar to experience the ground realities.If I shift to Bihar, that oes not mean I have to do only medical practice and make money-Punjab is more than good for that. There are so many other things to do in Bihar, and believe me, there are lot of doctors already working..a la Che Guevara style.
Phenonenon of Laloo means people starting to recognize their strengths...they dont have to depend on ``imported ``leaders who even dont understand their language.......and if Laloo (person)keeps going the same way,the Laoo(phenomenon) will wipe him off.....and same is true of other two.
#94 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 15, 2005 8:57:05 am
Re: # 86
Dr Lok Raj: There is no confusion. You are right in that I discussed the Laloo phenomenon. The problem is that most people from the subcontinent want `purified` icons. The minute you discuss a flawed case, there is a level of discomfort because the System has created these leaders -- and here one is talking of the System as the populace. Most people need their icons to come from above...so they can be cult followers. A Laloo does not do that; he is not deified.
Stuka: JP did not start the Bhoodan Movement; it was Vinoba Bhave. Being a `catalyst`, why are the changes he ought to have brought about not evident? JP became a cult (I have explained it above).
Re. whether Nehru would then not be seen as a mass leader because he was a brown sahib, I`d say that in the current political scenario, he would be the equivalent of a Manmohan Singh/Jaswant Singh. He would have one added advantage -- charisma. Mass leader he would not be.
And since he started the dynasty, he would not reap the benefit of that factor.
Nehru sympathised; he would not have been able to empathise -- therefore he was your `pure` leader.
Dr Lok Raj: There is no confusion. You are right in that I discussed the Laloo phenomenon. The problem is that most people from the subcontinent want `purified` icons. The minute you discuss a flawed case, there is a level of discomfort because the System has created these leaders -- and here one is talking of the System as the populace. Most people need their icons to come from above...so they can be cult followers. A Laloo does not do that; he is not deified.
Stuka: JP did not start the Bhoodan Movement; it was Vinoba Bhave. Being a `catalyst`, why are the changes he ought to have brought about not evident? JP became a cult (I have explained it above).
Re. whether Nehru would then not be seen as a mass leader because he was a brown sahib, I`d say that in the current political scenario, he would be the equivalent of a Manmohan Singh/Jaswant Singh. He would have one added advantage -- charisma. Mass leader he would not be.
And since he started the dynasty, he would not reap the benefit of that factor.
Nehru sympathised; he would not have been able to empathise -- therefore he was your `pure` leader.
#90 Posted by Netizen on October 14, 2005 9:57:04 am
Re: # 86
``All the armed attacks by maoists have beemn against the Ranvir sena or other such private senas of the Feudal lords. ``
almost all the private senas of the feudal lords are extinct. some singh of ranvir sena is in jail (in fact he himself surrendered). do you think the maoists will disband and go home? private armies were just a thorn in the flesh the real objective is ``revolution`` similar to wat mao did in china. how many private armies are in andhra? or in nepal where the maoists are holding the people to ransom?
``he rose among masses from being one of them, and that is the majoer difference.``
but that should not be the justification for his misrule. shouldn`t that be more of a reason for him to provide a decent life for his subjects? from whereever he came from, he is a major failure and the people of bihar are facing the consequences.
``There are so many other things to do in Bihar, and believe me, there are lot of doctors already working..a la Che Guevara style. ``
they are just dreaming about overthrowing the burgeoise democratic state and form a peoples republic a la china. lalu with no governance is definitely strengthening their hands.
``Phenonenon of Laloo means people starting to recognize their strengths...they dont have to depend on ``imported ``leaders who even dont understand their language......``
i don`t understand what are you trying to say. no one was and is imposing ``imported`` leaders on anyone, peolple themselves decide what they want. the language of future is not rustic bhojpuri or english but of governance, development and progess, which lalo will never understand. if he were in some other state he would been thrown out a long time back. ut because of his M-Y factor, he is still holding on. thanks god jharkhand is out of this tyranny.
``All the armed attacks by maoists have beemn against the Ranvir sena or other such private senas of the Feudal lords. ``
almost all the private senas of the feudal lords are extinct. some singh of ranvir sena is in jail (in fact he himself surrendered). do you think the maoists will disband and go home? private armies were just a thorn in the flesh the real objective is ``revolution`` similar to wat mao did in china. how many private armies are in andhra? or in nepal where the maoists are holding the people to ransom?
``he rose among masses from being one of them, and that is the majoer difference.``
but that should not be the justification for his misrule. shouldn`t that be more of a reason for him to provide a decent life for his subjects? from whereever he came from, he is a major failure and the people of bihar are facing the consequences.
``There are so many other things to do in Bihar, and believe me, there are lot of doctors already working..a la Che Guevara style. ``
they are just dreaming about overthrowing the burgeoise democratic state and form a peoples republic a la china. lalu with no governance is definitely strengthening their hands.
``Phenonenon of Laloo means people starting to recognize their strengths...they dont have to depend on ``imported ``leaders who even dont understand their language......``
i don`t understand what are you trying to say. no one was and is imposing ``imported`` leaders on anyone, peolple themselves decide what they want. the language of future is not rustic bhojpuri or english but of governance, development and progess, which lalo will never understand. if he were in some other state he would been thrown out a long time back. ut because of his M-Y factor, he is still holding on. thanks god jharkhand is out of this tyranny.
#85 Posted by harish_hyd on October 14, 2005 12:24:58 am
#84 by antihypochrist, #83 by concerned1 on October
[the rest of us can not understand why this author frequently publishes her articles on chowk.com, a website that is predominantly visited by `those who sit in foreign countries` (NRIs) and then object to their criticism as invalid on this basis?]
Please don`t hold your breath expecting an answer. Like Romair, the resident Chowk expert, the author doesn`t answer uncomfortable questions.
[the rest of us can not understand why this author frequently publishes her articles on chowk.com, a website that is predominantly visited by `those who sit in foreign countries` (NRIs) and then object to their criticism as invalid on this basis?]
Please don`t hold your breath expecting an answer. Like Romair, the resident Chowk expert, the author doesn`t answer uncomfortable questions.
#88 Posted by masanamuthu on October 14, 2005 4:32:10 am
Re: # 85
``Please don`t hold your breath expecting an answer. Like Romair, the resident Chowk expert, the author doesn`t answer uncomfortable questions.``
True, I have found them both avoiding uncomfortable questions..
Just quote the verses from the Quran and see how they squirm.. :-))
``For years, history has been telling large sections of our society that equality is a myth.``
True.. I believe she would include Muslim women in that list too. They have been screwed from the days of Quran and are denied entry in the mosques in India.. Like the ``temple entry movement`` for Dalits there should be a ``mosque entry movement`` for muslim women and the author should lead from the forefront..
``Please don`t hold your breath expecting an answer. Like Romair, the resident Chowk expert, the author doesn`t answer uncomfortable questions.``
True, I have found them both avoiding uncomfortable questions..
Just quote the verses from the Quran and see how they squirm.. :-))
``For years, history has been telling large sections of our society that equality is a myth.``
True.. I believe she would include Muslim women in that list too. They have been screwed from the days of Quran and are denied entry in the mosques in India.. Like the ``temple entry movement`` for Dalits there should be a ``mosque entry movement`` for muslim women and the author should lead from the forefront..
#84 Posted by antihypochrist on October 13, 2005 10:49:30 pm
I`ve always asked her that: if she indeed wants to brew up a discussion among people living in her country, why not post her ``articles`` on an Indian website, or perhaps even in one of the national magazines. No, she doesn`t do that. TFT, Chowk, Naseeb, Muslim Vibes are THE sites.
#83 Posted by concerned1 on October 13, 2005 10:41:05 pm
[...I cannot understand how those who sit in foreign countries can object to a Mumbai person (of course with her Rs. 80 coffee) speaking about another part of her own country...]
the rest of us can not understand why this author frequently publishes her articles on chowk.com, a website that is predominantly visited by `those who sit in foreign countries` (NRIs) and then object to their criticism as invalid on this basis?
who exactly is your intended audience? pakistanis?
the rest of us can not understand why this author frequently publishes her articles on chowk.com, a website that is predominantly visited by `those who sit in foreign countries` (NRIs) and then object to their criticism as invalid on this basis?
who exactly is your intended audience? pakistanis?
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