NWFP Demonstrators Fury against No Response from Army

# 224 That is just pathetic. Only 13000 of the total of 30000 tents needed have been sent so far!

We should put pride aside if we can`t manage a disaster.

Will the Indians please request their government to allow any foreign aid? not necessarily from Pakistan but any at all?


NY Times

October 19, 2005
Letter From Asia
Pride and Politics: India Rejects Quake Aid
By SOMINI SENGUPTA
NEW DELHI, Oct. 18 - Calamities of nature do not just test the capacity of a state. They can also offer unexpected opportunities for political craftsmanship.

Take India. The government has announced that it needs no international aid to recover from the Oct. 8 earthquake that leveled villages in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir, killed an estimated 1,300 people there and displaced roughly 30,000 families.

As temperatures fall to near freezing in the hilltop hamlets of Kashmir, the most liberal estimates suggest that fewer than half of the surviving families have tents to sleep in. Yet a full nine days and nights after the quake, Indian officials say they have no need for the United Nations, nor foreign aid agencies, to bring tents from abroad.

Indian officials say that they are able to care for their own, and that tents are coming from private producers and the Indian military. What is more, India has sent aid, including 620 tents, to its neighbor and archrival, Pakistan. ``We ourselves are taking care of our victims,`` said Navtej Sarna, the Foreign Ministry spokesman. ``When there are offers by friendly countries and anything is needed, these offers are considered.``

It is too early to tell whether India, which seeks a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, can go it alone. Certainly there is anger in Indian-administered Kashmir among people who have been forced to build their own tents out of the wooden beams and tin sheets retrieved from the rubble of their homes. Even so, India`s posture says a great deal about the politics of disaster aid, and about India`s own ambitions to assert itself as a world power.

India also refused international aid in the immediate aftermath of the tsunami, though it later allowed United Nations and private agencies to help. Three years ago, it rebuffed development aid from a number of foreign donors, saying it was no longer necessary. In short, India has been anxious to portray itself as a giver, rather than a receiver. ``What we can manage on our own, we do,`` said Hamid Ansari, a retired Indian diplomat. ``There`s a certain sense of self-confidence that we can manage it and, let me say, a desire to signal that you are capable of managing things on your own.``

Pratap Bhanu Mehta, the director of a private research group here called the Center for Policy Research, saw reflected in India`s rejection of foreign aid so far a desire to be seen as an emerging global power, or one of what he called ``the big boys.``

``The risk really is that in our refusal to accept aid I don`t think we are keeping people to whom aid might go as central,`` Mr. Mehta said. ``We are playing politics with aid, using aid to make a statement.``

Pakistan`s approach has been exactly the opposite. Hit a whole lot harder by the Oct. 8 quake - its official death toll stood at 42,000 on Tuesday- Pakistan has appealed for worldwide help and allowed foreigners to travel to its side of Kashmir and to the traditionally well-guarded pockets of North-West Frontier Province, the two areas that suffered the greatest damage.

Pakistan is the world`s largest manufacturer of tents, but still cannot produce nearly enough. The United Nations said Tuesday that 350,000 additional tents were urgently needed and that 500,000 earthquake survivors had still not received any medical care, food or other assistance.

There is no agreement on whether India has sufficient tents to care for its own. The Foreign Ministry spokesman said the Indian Army would be able to help make up the shortfall. The army spokesman in Kashmir, Lt. Col. S. K. Batra, cautioned that the military, itself badly hit in the earthquake, could not entirely deplete its own stock. The government`s joint secretary of disaster management, Aseem Khurana, vowed that enough tents would be sent within a week. So far, roughly 13,000 of the 30,000 tents required have been distributed, he said, slightly less than half sent by the Indian Army.

State government officials in Kashmir said they were puzzled about the dearth of tents. ``It is really eye-opening for us, that in this country with such a large population base, more than a million-strong army, and so many paramilitary forces we just do not have enough tents,`` said Muzaffar Baig, the Kashmir state finance and planning minister. ``Every day we are getting only 300 to 400 tents from the central government.``

R. K. Pachauri, director of the Energy Research Institute in Delhi, a private research group, insisted that if India had enough tents, they should have been distributed much more quickly. If it did not, it should have accepted them from overseas right away. ``We should really have been able to organize ourselves a little better,`` he said. That the quake struck the province of Jammu and Kashmir, which has been at the center of a long territorial dispute between India and Pakistan, makes the politics of aid particularly prickly. The Indian government has never been keen on outside intervention in Kashmir, so the subject of foreign aid to the quake victims is a touchy matter.

``New Delhi has adopted an enlightened approach to helping Pakistan during this tragedy, and a backward approach to accepting foreign humanitarian assistance on its side of the Kashmir divide,`` said Michael Krepon, president of the Washington-based Henry L. Stimson Center, which studies security issues. ``Part of this has to do with national pride, which is compounded by sensitivity to foreign governments making landfall in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.``

Kashmiri leaders have pressed New Delhi to embrace international aid as a humanitarian gesture. ``Allow international organizations to come in and help the Kashmiri people,`` said Yasin Malik, leader of a separatist group called Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front. ``India will gain. They will not lose with this kind of gesture.``

In the back and forth between India and Pakistan, neighborly solidarity is difficult to distinguish from political gamesmanship. On Monday, Pakistan accepted India`s longstanding offer of helicopters to help with relief work, but said it would not take Indian military pilots or crews. On Tuesday afternoon, India announced that it would open a number of telephone lines to enable Kashmiris in its territory to communicate with their relatives on the Pakistani side.

By Tuesday evening, the Pakistani president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, called on India to allow Kashmiris to cross the disputed Line of Control to assist in relief efforts. Later in the evening, India said it welcomed General Musharraf`s suggestion. ``This is in line with India`s advocacy of greater movement across the line for relief work and closer people-to-people contacts,`` a Foreign Ministry statement said. ``India is willing to facilitate such movements, but we await word from Pakistan about the practical details of implementing this intention.``

Hari Kumar contributed reporting for this article.

#219
Okay Turd blossom,

That’s all you got! Poll numbers to prove your fantasy!
If people don’t like Jews, they are Jihadi…what a uniquely Indian logic! touch bases with your buddies in the Neo-Nazis too. They would love you for saying that!

Next thing you are going to tell us that since 60% American disapprove of Bush so they are all Jihadi supporter or since 70% Gujarati support Modi, so all Gujarati are murderers and Baby killers?

Weren’t you once caught giving a Rusty Trombone to an Aardvark?

shishapa:
It was destined to be that way since the state was carved on hatred, bigotry, and sickening
manipulation of religion and got rid of its minorities who could have contributed so much
because they were thought to be impure.
It was going to be slippery slope downhill since then and it has been proven right.

you have a point, i guess a better way to see current Pakistan is from the day in December 1971 when it was born alongside Bangladesh. In this way, lethal religous nationhood arguments of 1947 and those personalities that employ them as bargaining chips ( to further their own agendas ) would simply become irrelevant. Pakistan (minus the current occupiers, which is a stretch to imagine) would then become a federation comprised of all ethnicities that choose to live in it. (i am just wondering here.)

Re: # 220

It was destined to be that way since the state was carved on hatred, bigotry, and sickening
manipulation of religion and got rid of its minorities who could have contributed so much
because they were thought to be impure.
It was going to be slippery slope downhill since then and it has been proven right.

arjun_m:
there is no civil society in pakistan, State coopts implicitly everyone into the sickening games of jihad, kargil, massacre `71... People`s minds are beholden to a medieval mythology of Last Day and heaven and hell and all this makes an explosive mix where noone`s permission is asked when GOP executes a ``foreign policy`` with the view of GOP stakeholders getting the maximum mileage out of each adventure (invariably millions lose their lives as history shows us).

The only problem is that pakistanis who have the luxury to think and understand are having difficulties in what they see is the historical ``retreats`` from each and every frontline for ``Pakistan`` and kashmiri jihad frontline is still in play. Reasons: look at the pakistani textbooks that has reared one new generation which is the most vocal and in its 20s. (you prolly know all that)

The sad part is GOP, the occupiers, has masterfully convinced most of these educated characters to confuse enslaved pakistani people`s collective interest with the interest of the establishment.

#214 by HP on October 18, 2005 1:48pm PT


How so? Why is it a fertile breeding ground for global Jihadi, Any evidence to prove this?


Hmm..let`s see..more than a 3rd think suicide bombing is justified



80% of Pakiland, a country that has almost ZERO % jews, doesn`t like jews



And then there`s this...




Spare us the they only dislike XYZ policy apologia...the french dislike American policies too..it`s only the jihadis who like OBL....

#203
`` I do think that a common/not so common harworking man and woman would not like to associate himself/herself with any maniac Jehadi``

---

What ``common people`` believe is so impossible to divine, if we did an opinion survey in Pakistan which asks people:

``Should Pakistan support the liberation struggle in Kashmir by whatever means necessary`` I am willing to bet my last set of chaddies that 80%+ of responses will be ``yes``.

At the same time it we ask ``Should Pakistan have better relations with India`` again I bet a majority will say ``yes``.

so what the heck can we conclude from this?

Re: # 214 HP
//.... It[jihad] is not my problem and I don’t care. (snark)...//

That`s fine - just take it easy, don`t fly off your handle.... You say that jihad is not a problem for you[pakis] and that you don`t care .....Well, Other pakis disagree - zahra, bolta_aina are saying the opposite - that jihad is a big problem for pakistan itself....

Regardless - we know that it`s a big problem for India and the world.... You are asking india to attack pakistan to solve jihad issue .... well, that`s a good option, but not feasible at this point, otherwise we would have done it already.....

#203

ZahraJ,

Some of the major Pakistani organizations that sponsor terror in India are non-sectarian. For example the Hizbul Mujhaideen is sponsored by the mainstream Jamait-E-Islami, which is stridently non-sectarian.

Following the recent earthquake, news keeps surfacing of rescue work carried out by ``volunteers`` of the Jamaat-ud-Dawah, the parent organization of the Lashkar-e-Toiba. LeT to my knowledge has not been involved in sectarian violence in Pakistan. Its ``members`` have been involved in incidents, but as a whole the organization tries to stay out of Pakistani sectarian issues. The LeT also has been the most prominent in spreading its activities outside Kashmir to the rest of India. The opposite of these groups are the one`s like Anjuman Sipaha Saheba Pakistan (SSP) which participated in the Afghan war but is primarily involved in domestic sectarian violence.

That in essence is Musharaff`s plan, i.e to maintain his capabilities in India via organizations like LeT but to stike hard on the SSP like organizations. Looking from the outside it may be do-able. Pakistan will remain a source of terrorist organizations focussed and controlled by the Pakistan Army which will limit activities of such groups within Pakistan.

btw, note I say Army not ISI, because the ISI is the Army.

Generalities like what ``most Pakistani`s`` desire are nice to know but not of much use to anyone.

#203

ZahraJ,

Some of the major Pakistani organizations that sponsor terror in India are non-sectarian. For example the Hizbul Mujhaideen is sponsored by the mainstream Jamait-E-Islami. Following the recent earthquake news a lot of rescue work seems to be done by the Jamaat-ud-Dawah the parent organization of the Lashkar-e-Toiba which to my knowledge not been involved in sectarian violence in Pakistan. Its ``members`` have been involved i incidents but as a whole the organization tries to stay out of Pakistani sectarian issues. The LeT also has been the most prominent in spreading its activities outside Kashmir to the rest of India. The opposite of these groups are the one`s like Anjuman Sipaha Saheba Pakistan (SSP) which participated in the Afghan war but is primaryly involved in domestic sectarian violence.

That in essence is Musharaff`s plan, i.e to maintain his capabilities in India via organizations like LeT but to stike hard on the SSP like organizations. Looking from the outside it may be do-able. Pakistan will remain a source of terrorist organizations focussed and controlled by the Pakistan Army which will limit activities of such groups within Pakistan.

btw, note I say Army not ISI, because the ISI is the Army.

Generalities like what ``most Pakistani`s`` desire are nice to know but not of much use to anyone.

#213 by mohar11

“The fact is - pakistan is a fertile breeding ground of global jihad and would remain so for any foreseeable future unless something drastic is done there ....”

How so? Why is it a fertile breeding ground for global Jihadi, Any evidence to prove this? …Beyond some inherently ridiculous rhetoric. It is like saying India is a fertile breeding ground for communalist and baby killers.

Before 1982 there were no Jihadi in Pakistan, what is to say that there may not be any jihadi in 2015?

“It`s time for pakis to get over the semantics and get down to address the real issues here”

Pray tell me what is the real issue here? Let say, I don’t consider Jihadi as a real problem. I think establishing democracy and civilian rule in Pakistan is a real problem. Convince me.

Jihadi may be a problem for India and you people why can’t you deal with it? Don’t have enough Army, don’t have the political will, or just don’ have the capacity to deal with a few thousand sparingly trained non educated people.

Just what is it? If you think Pakistan is behind it, attack Pakistan. That’s what the US did. It is whacko like you who don’t understand the problem and start crying and ranting. If Jihad is an issue for you people, why you don’t deal with? Make some suggestions to Indian government. Why are yelling and screaming on a web site?

It is not my problem and I don’t care. (snark)

Re: # 210 HP
//....calling every Pakistani as a Jihadi or Jihadi supporter would not help....//

My be not... But when pakis are generating a billion dollar a year to finance jihad - it doesn`t really matter what anybody says....

I mean - let`s say every paki is a saint - so what? Does that change anything on ground? We still have unhindered jihad...... we still have a billion dollars sitting there to finance the jihad ...... we still have a million[minus whatever number were killed in the quake] trained jihadis waiting in the wings ...... we still have paki gov`t/army/society supporting them all the way... we still have infrastructure to churn-out more jihadis as needed....

That`s the real problem.... calling paki good/bad names doesn`t matter - that is just semantics..... It`s time for pakis to get over the semantics and get down to address the real issues here..... The fact is - pakistan is a fertile breeding ground of global jihad and would remain so for any foreseeable future unless something drastic is done there ....

No more excuses.... no more bullsh!t .... time to act is Now....

re: Pak sponsored terror
Those who think Kashmir is not an issue anymore between India and Pak must read the following article:
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=56805
Sridhar

#210 by HP on October 18, 2005 9:39am PT


Kashmir is on its way out as being the main issue between Pakistan and India


Captain Clueless would beg to differ......take it away CC...

#205 by Netizen

“sometimes i felt that pakistan itself is hostage to jihadi/ISI elements. in such a case may be both the countries should join forces to combat it. But there is a feeling that mushy also has some influence on them as he threatened to increase the flow of insurgents if india doesn`t start peace talks.”

Neti, I think you make a fair assessment. If your interest is looking at the problem the way it is rather than the arjun approach, then you will have much more success in figuring out the problem of Jihadi in Pakistan.

India may have a crippled and corrupt democracy but it does allow different elements to compete in open and they know that there will be an accountability time. They may go around it by several means but they have to face it. Despite the democractic process, some militant goups show up in India with or without Pakistan support.

In Pakistan, that democratic accountability does not exist and that is the reason that adventurism and fringe groups often are able to manipulate the system in their favor.
The army itself has to rely on these groups for support as it lacks the ability to be in sync with a majority of population.

The relations with India in this context are important and that is why the democratic elements in Pakistan and now the US are pushing for better relations with India. There is no doubt that when the element of military confrontation between the two countries is removed/subsided, the militarist elements in Pakistan would lose steam too.

This is not an easy process and anybody saying that Pakistanis should come out on the streets to confront the army is obviously a non political person who is just showing his ignorance with how people work. People everywhere worry about their family and food at the table first. Any issue afterwards is rated based on how much it is going to impact people in their ability to feed their family. The Jihadi issue in Pakistan has never reached a point where people’s food is threatened by it. So chances are that opposition to the Jihadi would grow slowly and not overnite.

With improved relations with India, we see the difference already. There are going to be many hurdles in it as there are groups on both sides of the border that will attempt to cripple the process. That’s part of the political struggle that continues everywhere.

Kashmir is on its way out as being the main issue between Pakistan and India but it will take its time and both parties will have to patiently work on it. In the meantime, the Jihadi would attempt to derail it as much as possible.

Creating hype and calling every Pakistani as a Jihadi or Jihadi supporter would not help. Like Pakistan, some groups in India like the RSS and its supporters on this site would continue their game as better Pak-India relations destroy their base and political philosophy of communalism.