NWFP Demonstrators Fury against No Response from Army

omar khan,

..... i have talked to friends and family who live in mansehra ............. based on their feedback i can categorically say that you are a fu%*n idiot ! .......... that should suffice for now ...... for further explanation read ferozek`s post .............

what the hell?

what is this obsession with some people on chowk to turn every single thing into a ``we are better than you are`` scenario? or a pakistan vs. india scenario? why should we concern ourselves with which army has responded to an earthquake faster or better? do any of these bewaqoof morons have any clue what it is like up in the north? ground realities se koi wabasta nahiN inn saaloN ka, aur apna besura dhun lagaye rakkhte hain.

such people lack certain elements: class, compassion, and all the things that dorothy`s friends wished for in the wizard of oz.

is there any limit to such kachchra?

as for this article. . . . feroz has explained the reality very well.

Ferozk, thanks for your post here and also ilogs. You have given most balanced information so for.

You pointed out something that I was trying to find in various news reports and did not. Immediately after the earthquake in Kashmir, what was the first priortiy of the army? I guessed that initial delay even from armymen stationed in the area was probably due to confusion this masive earth quake might have caused. First thing they might be thinking was how to protect border. What if in this vunerable moment enemy attacks and take advantage of the situation? If thats what they thought, and must have thought, then civilian relief becomes a distant priority. I am sure change of priorities took a while, atleast couple of days as they became more aware of the situation.

As for preparation for providing relief in such situations. No one can be fully prepared. not even first world countries. It is just not possible to stay on your toes 24/7 in anticipation of such tragedies...that would be too distrupting for life.

Having the terrain we have in Kashmir, there was no way to rush relief in hours or even in days...no one should take that against army..that is very understandable....only way to send some forward personnel if not food and equipment was helicopters and as you listed there were many problems with that. one of them was low number of large transport helicopters that army has....I don`t take it against them for relief work but question does pop up, how do they plan to fight a war in Kashmir with it. Romair said Pak army is more geared toward fighting in plains and desert. well may be, but you don`t decide the location of war always, your enemy does. khair, that is only a side comment and nothing to do with relief work.

Indian army was marginally better equiped to prvide relief and this is why I think so. number 1, the damage was much much less probably 1/10 or less of what is in Pak Kashmir. there is no comparison on that account. Secondly there are more armymen per square inch near Kashmir border than probably anywhere else in the world. Third is that Indian army in kashmir is in operational mode and in war zone compared to pak army in pak Kashmir who were just guarding the frontiers at the most. Another thing that should be considered is that Pak army in Kashmir has been mostly overseeing, encouraging and as we saw in Kargill providing logitics to the mujahdeens fighting in Kashmir from their safe houses, cantts and bunkers while Indian army on the other side is fighting with the same elements for last 15 years on streets, in fields and jungles...when you are 24/7 on your toes trying to avoid an IED here or an ambush there you do become more competitive and alert after a while. I am sure that also did help them act quickly relative to Pak side.

Pak army is indeed under microscope but no one is responsible for it but they themselves. They have become know all and do all in Pakistan and when they faulter which is very human to do, they get the bashing they are getting. If it were political leaders incharge, I am sure they would have got the beating instead. In an utter devastation like this as for as victims are concerned there is also a genuine need to blame others and take your mind off your miseries...it is almost therapeutic. You have to see the bashing that Mufti and his team is getting on the other side.

Above all, people`s expectations of official relief and help in disaster situations have increased a lot in last few decades all over the world...and it certainly does not match with ground realities of third world.

#33 by ana on October 13, 2005 6:42am PT


what is this obsession with some people on chowk to turn every single thing into a ``we are better than you are`` scenario? or a pakistan vs. india scenario?


It`s not about ``we are better``..IT`s about ``we`ll let our people die because accepting help from India is bad for our dignity``...

Out of the rubble, an opportunity

Then there`s the opportunity. The hardest-hit region is Kashmir, a divided territory claimed by both Pakistan and India. Over the last 15 years, more than 65,000 people have died in fighting across the Line of Control that separates the Pakistani- and Indian-administered areas of the Himalayan region.

Despite ongoing tensions there, Indian-Pakistani relations are stronger today than at any time since the violent partition of the two countries in 1947. Yet the military government in Islamabad has so far been reluctant to seize the opportunity for even warmer relations offered by Indian offers of aid for earthquake victims on the Pakistani side of the divide.

The earthquake killed Indians as well, particularly in India`s Jammu and Kashmir state. More than 1,300 are believed dead. Still, India has offered Pakistan everything from tents and mattresses to army helicopters. While Pakistan has accepted some of the aid, its military government is loath to accept anything from India they fear is substantial enough to undermine Pakistan`s dignity and inflame nationalists and religious radicals.

In short, Pakistan has refused to accept desperately needed helicopters from India, citing political ``sensitivities,`` even as huge numbers of Pakistanis in remote areas of the country wait for help and rescuers race the clock to provide it. America, grateful for Musharraf`s support in its campaign against terrorism, has stepped into the breach with eight U.S. helicopters. But the Pakistani military is missing the chance to welcome cooperation across one of the world`s most dangerous frontiers.

Of course, the Pakistani military knows that, if it allows Indian troops to cross the Line of Control to provide relief, there is a risk they might provide the bulk of their supplies to Indians living inside Pakistani-controlled territory. If so, Musharraf would face sharp criticism from across his country - and even from within the Pakistani military itself. Still, given the scale of the devastation and Islamabad`s inability to cope with it, the risk might be worth taking.

#34 by dullabhatti on October 13, 2005 6:58am PT


Indian army was marginally better equiped to prvide relief and this is why I think so.


This isn`t about who was better equipped...It`s about who was better equipped in a particular area...I`m sure the Indian army was better equipped to provide help along some portions of the LoC...

Once again, the paki army refused the aid because it would hurt their dignity...

Border stand-off blocking aid

Indian military rescue teams expressed anger last night at being forced to watch helplessly from the other side of the border as tens of thousands of Pakistanis fought for their lives only miles from their positions along the Kashmiri line of control.

In the Indian border town of Uri, which lies two miles from the isolated Pakistani town of Bagh, Indian air force pilots could only look on as thousands of their fellow Kashmiris suffered without assistance. One air force navigator described the situation in Bagh and neighbouring towns along the border as desperate.

``We know they are cut off and their geographical position on the Pakistani side means that aid is still not getting through to them. It`s gut wrenching, you can almost reach out and touch them,`` he said.

``But as things stand we can only fly along the border and look down the valley. Bagh is barely four kilometres from Uri where Indian aid is starting to arrive in trucks and military transporters but none of this desperately needed aid can be pushed on over the border. It is a terrible situation. As a human being you want to help those fighting for their lives within sight of you, but it is impossible.``

An Indian army colonel, Hemant Juneja, admitted that his rescue teams were frustrated. ``Some of the worst affected areas in Pakistan are within touching distance for us and we can`t do anything about it,`` he said. ``It would make sense for us to move aid over the border from here but it is unlikely to happen.``

arjuna:

YES! moron musharraf missed out on an opportunity. . . and imagine, the government will accept aid from israel, but not from india. . . . idiots.

but that wasn`t the point i was trying to make here. and that is not the point your fellow countrywalas are trying to score. and i think you know that.

#33 by ana on October 13, 2005 6:42am PT


or a pakistan vs. india scenario?


It`s not India that`s making this into an India v/s Pakistan thing...It`s Pakistan..let me repeat that...PAKISTAN..that`s refusing some aid because it would hurt their dignity...

EDITORIAL: Earthquake: ‘images’ and reality

Meanwhile, the government itself is not sure if it can accept India’s help for fear of losing its image further. This is certainly a defensive reaction to what its opponents are getting to ready to do. There is bureaucratic nitpicking in the decision not to let Indian rescue personnel enter our areas of disaster, especially Azad Kashmir, which is disputed with India! It is again the imagery that the government dreads. Imagine an Indian soldier, who has been killing Kashmiri Muslims, pulling our women and children out of collapsed homes! But such thinking cannot be achieved without forgetting the fact that every time the British rescuers pulled victims out of the Margalla Towers wreck, the people standing around clapped and raised the cry of “Allah Akbar”!

The biggest irony to follow our reluctance to accept the Indian offer came in the shape of the statement of the leader of Kashmir’s victims. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the chairperson of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), made a tearful appeal to India and Pakistan “not to let politics interfere with helping earthquake victims in the disputed region, and urged them to launch joint relief efforts”. He added, “This tragedy has not respected the ceasefire line. We have seen that both India and Pakistan have been hesitant in accepting each other’s relief. Let’s not play politics over this”.

Feroze has outlined the details of deployment quite accurately.

I have, now, had a chance to experience quite a breadth of the Pakistani society, from the wealthy Silicon Valley Pakistani millionaires, to the field workers in south Punjab. Rest assured, when the dust settles down from this earthquake, the reaction to it, throughout Pakistan, will be considered Pakistan`s finest hour. It will also be considered Pakistan Army`s finest hour.......Mark my words.......

The average member of the Army (for whom I have a lot of respect) - the havaldar and the captain - always delivers, under huge odds in such situations and in war, with little supplies. I have been through an odd relief operation, and I know. All of us in the PAF would stand around twiddling our thumbs, completetly confused, not knowing what to do, while all our Army colleagues took charge. Even the most corrupt of the Generals, delivers in such situation, since their reputations, amongst their troops, are on the line.......

People need to keep a few things in mind: The Pakistan army is quite highly respected in the middle and lower classes of Pakistan. Contrary to what is seen amongst us upper class Chowkies, with little exposure outside our small groups. Simply because the army is made up of the middle and lower class of Pakistan. In Kashmir, it is respected even more. A lot of families affected in Kashmir are family members of people who are themselves in the Army.

Also, armies are not specifically designed for crisis relief. That is their side job. It is also the side job of all govt. agencies, from Police, to politicians, to NGOs, to the postal dept, to Wapda. The fact that everyone, from the harshest critics of the army to the foreign aid agencies are completely looking to the Army to deliver, shows whom they are counting on to deliver. And whom they think can deliver.

Imagine what would have happened, if even the Army had not been able to do anything.........

arjuna:

and let me repeat again. . . . i am not saying it is ``india`` that is turning this into an india vs. pakistan thing. i am talking about the comparisons and the comments that indians are making here on chowk. last i knew, these folks including you are not ``india``.

and i can tell you that it is the pakistan government and some fazool saalay politicians that are concerned about pakistan`s dignity at a time like this. oh and let me not forget some of those so-called ``religious`` nutcases.

so enough preaching to the choir, already.

Now to some individual stories, which would have made the cover of Newsweek and Time had they occured in the West:

ARY interviewed the Brigadier who is incharge of the whole operation in Muzzafarabad. His name is Brigadier Ihsan. Dr. Shahid - the interviewer - said he has been watching the Brigadier run the Muzzafarabad operation for four days, day and night. It turned out the Brigadier, himself, had lost his 11 year old son, in the earthquake. He buried him, and immediately returned to his job. When asked, the Briagadier - a pretty sharp looking guy - simply replied, everyone in Muzzafarabad is my son. He didn`t have a tear in his eye, nor did he show any emotion. Talk about grace under pressure.

One of my very close acquintances - a young officer - was delivering his unit`s supplies from Punjab to Kashmir, when the earthquake struck. His unit was deep inside Kashmir, well beyond Muzzafarabad, in a small town. He got caught in a village, before reaching his unit. People told him to stay there. However, he left his supplies in the village. And literally went into the earthquake. He walked, along with an NCO, into Kashmir, as the aftershocks were going on, while others were coming out of Kashmir. I don`t know how many miles he walked, but eventually he reached his unit, and is now assisting in the relief efforts. Once there, he found out that his Brigade commander and the commander`s family had all died in the earthquake.

Army aviation has flown 800 sorties in three to four days! If we assume 19 helicopters, that is 40 sorties per helicopter. That`s ten per day. Lets count the sorties of smaller helicopters also. Event that makes it, 6, per day. Normally, one flies one sortie per day, in military aviation. If that. This many sorties aren`t even flown during wartime. The maintanence and the logistics of keeping a helicopter up in the air, for so long are very large. And flying in such difficult terrain is very difficult. Perhaps the most difficult terrain in the world. I am surprised none have crashed yet. Sooner or later, one may crash.

There are many such stories.

It is very easy to be a journalist in Pakistan. And even easier to be a critic. I have never had too much respect for critics, who are themselves, not doing anything, except criticizing. Where are the media-loving NGOs, who are on the front page of all the newspapers, in normal times. Perhaps they are too busy organizing marathons again. Why is Shahid Masood of ARY, one of the only journalists in the area. Where are Irfan Hussains and Ayaz Amirs and the Najam Sethis and Kamran Shafis, etc? I hope Pervez Hoodbhoy is out there, and has not been heard because he is keeping a low profile. People who take up so much media and TV times, as, ``activists`` then need to deliver when the chips are down.........

By the way, where is the maulvi brigade? So far, the only people I have seen, on TV, executing are the clean shaven normal Pakistani civilian, and the clean shaven military officers and jawans. Two people who never get any press.................

In fact, come to think of it, where am I. If I am not there, then I lose the right to complain, about those who are there. Though I am going to Pakistan, in a few weeks, and will try to link up with one of my old units, if I can.

People have always wondered why I am so defensive about the military (other than the Generals, of whom I am quite critical). Now you know. The stories mentioned above, are similar to stories that I had a chance to see on a day to day basis. Just a few days ago, I got an email of one of my friends, who died flying a military plane. He left behind a wife and one year old kid. God knows how many other stories there are like that.

In any case, while in the pre-earthquake planning, of normal times, deserves a D. The action after the earthquake, from the common Pakistani, and Pakistani Armyman, gets an A. Soon after this, things will go back to the same. There will be the same politics, and corruption and what not. But I think people will remember the fact that for a few weeks, when the chips were totally down, and when Pakistan literally disintegrated (physically and logistically) every Pakistani delivered............

Re: Musharraf being in full military uniform, Pakis like their leaders smartly dressed and especially in military uniform. That was one thing quite obvious from all the Gandhi threads.

arjunm, I wonder what`s stopping the indian soldiers from walking over and helping out, damn the protocols. If there are no Pakistani soldiers to lend a hand, there aren`t any to resist the Indians from entering either, right?

ana #37: ``YES! moron musharraf missed out on an opportunity. . . and imagine, the government will accept aid from israel, but not from india. . . . idiots.``

One should not get carried away, and become a habitual critic. Pakistan has accepted the aid, and it has, infact already arrived.............So I am not sure what you are refering to.........

The best thing India could do right now, in my opinion, is to agree to the Siachen withdrawl. that Pakistan has been trying to get done, for a long time. All the Pakistani helicopters were actually deployed, for Siachen. Since it is impossible to get their by land, in the winter. All of Pakistan`s high altitude trained troops and (probably) equipment is there, also.

The whole purpose of that moving into Siachen by India, was to ensure that Pakistani Army stays deployed there, because the % wise economic costs to Pakistan, are more, than India. Otherwise there is nothing on that glacier......Not even grass or goats.......

Freeing up all those Pakistan troops are resources would be a huge help to Pakistan. Far more than any amount of blankets India can send. Though those are helpful also.........

#42 by soysauce on October 13, 2005 8:11am PT


arjunm, I wonder what`s stopping the indian soldiers from walking over and helping out,


I`m sure they were following orders....As were the paki officials who refused their help because someone above them told them it would hurt pakiland`s dignity....

ana
Let me remind you it was the Pakistani Army which has insisted on a virtual state of war with India for many years saying Kashmir is its `shah rug` and their topmost emotional/strategic/everything in the world issue. To me their not urgently demanding 100s of helicopters from international community and not working out some sort of dignified deal with Indians when these were offered by India, shows the difference between their rhetoric and the reality.

I am sure that now that the immediate urgency is over, the Pakistani Army will manage the current situation just like any other disciplined army. The time to watch them(and criticise them) next will be in the reconstruction/rebuilding phase.

#43 by Romair on October 13, 2005 8:17am PT


The best thing India could do right now, in my opinion, is to agree to the Siachen withdrawl. that Pakistan has been trying to get done, for a long time. All the Pakistani helicopters were actually deployed, for Siachen. Since it is impossible to get their by land, in the winter. All of Pakistan`s high altitude trained troops and (probably) equipment is there, also.


So what`s stopping them from withdrawing? I`m sure India won`t use this opportunity to gain more land...It already has the heights...


The whole purpose of that moving into Siachen by India, was to ensure that Pakistani Army stays deployed there, because the % wise economic costs to Pakistan, are more, than India. Otherwise there is nothing on that glacier......Not even grass or goats.......


And the whole idea behind the escalation by the Indian army was a reply to the ``we`ll bleed India using a low cost jihad`` paki strategy...

funny how little you have to show for it...and the fact that you spend more than twice on your army as a % of GDP...

Wonder if you still want the F-16s instead of heavy lift helicopters...India can afford to buy the F-16/18/15s that are being offered AND provide relief supplies...you clearly can`t...

#39 romair, I am sure it is finest hour of Pakistani people even before dust settles. I think it is pretty moving to see you guys come together and participate in this relief effort. people on ground seem to be really giving each other a helping hand in this moment of sorrow while most of them are effected by it themselves. Salutes to the awaam no doubt! as for as army`s Finest hour.....I don`t know..it does not take much for army to claim a finest hour in Pakistan...even the wars they lost are considered as their finest hours.