No Burial for Balakot

dr. hoodbhoy:

thank you for sharing your eye-witness account with us. it does seem rather bleak, even with the good news, and your report highlights the difficulties and problems ahead. i hope that more can be done before the snows arrive. it is all some of us can do from across the ocean, to do our part and hope for plenty of good, if not the best.

thank you again,
ana

Great reporting ``from the front lines`` from Dr. Hoodbhoy. In order to be effective, we needs to look at the ground realities - good intentions and donations alone will not be enough. And think of practical ways to make life a little more bearable for the survivors.

Can you please let us know in detail how to contribute to the Eqbal Ahmad Foundation Earthquake Relief Fund. Account number, bank name etc. Also can you please give us more details as to who is in charge of this fund. Although I am sure if you are associated with this fund, the money will go exactly where it`s needed, but I just want to have more details. I`ll try to send out as many emails as possible, urging people to donate to this fund.

I konw a month down the road not many people will be interested in the rehabilitation and reconstruction effort. But contrinbuting to this fund for months and years to come will ensure that some if not all houses get rebuilt.

Thank you so much Dr. Hoodbhoy for your efforts!

(1) `Four days later, they are still not even trying to extricate the dead in the town of Balakot, flattened on the morning of October 8.` (note the moral/utilitarian anguish of `even`)

(2) `The army’s presence is important and positive, but no senior officers appeared to be present. I heard criticism that soldiers did little to stop looting.` (`appeared??`, `heard??`)

kaka is no friend of the government of Pakistan or any bureaucracy, but this kind of whiners` logic has to be mocked and made unfashionable.

A group of people (the pakistan `gorment`), even after nepotism and its evil cousins, have found themselves in the position to manage resources etc. Is it conceivable that even at this difficult time, these people STILL HAVE NO HEARTS to do (1) and no basic political sense to do (2)? Are we to conclude that in the intense haramkhor system in which these people (whatever `they` Hoodbhoy is pointing to) have succeeded, they have no sense to `extricate bodies` or no interest to `appear to be present` per Hoodbhoy`s schedule?

In the madness of recovery and restoring control, could the authorities be.. spread a li`l thin, maybe? Maybe there are more important things to do than to `appear` for a photo-op with Hoodbhoy for his future dejavu memories?

Again, kaka is no defender of state machineries and inept morons at the helm, but this sideline commentary of one`s high-schoolish anguish seems to be the pride and joy of chowk.com.

Following are some of the comments by Pakistanis posted on BBC.com

This tragedy has changed the nation; everyone is helping out in the relief efforts. Tens of truckloads full of food, medicines are leaving for the affected areas. I was trying to buy blankets in Islamabad but could not find any as all of them have already been bought and being sent to the affected areas.
Junaid Muhammad, Islamabad

I`ve been out all day buying and depositing blankets and clothes with my dad and to be very honest I have never seen such a response by the public ever before in my life. When we first went to the Pakistan Air Force Museum to deposit the clothes and blankets in the morning, there weren`t many cars but the second time we went there were hundreds of cars and the third time we went there must`ve been a thousand cars and hundreds more queuing to get in and deposit things. Trucks, cars, motorbikes, wagons, taxis, Mercedes Benzes, pajeros, FXs, etc, old people, youngsters, children all were present. People who normally wouldn`t give you the time of the day stood in the sun guiding drivers and helping people carry stuff. And that too while fasting. I`ve never seen anything like this in my life. I felt proud of being a Pakistani. Even though we in Karachi didn`t feel anything still people are rushing to help. All of the nation has felt the pain as our friends and relatives have been affected.
Ali Rashid Khan, Karachi, Pakistan

We were so overwhelmed by the news of earthquake and the sights on TV that we wanted to help in any way we could. My 7-year-old son and I immediately sat down and started sorting and separating our winter clothes as we thought we just have these clothes for our yearly foreign trips where as these people need it now. Laden with our carload of clothes, shoes and food stuff, both of us went to the Pakistan air force museum to give it to them for onward shipment to Islamabad. What we were surprised to see that from a mile off there was a steady stream of cars, vans, trucks full to capacity with clothes etc moving in one direction. Not knowing where the air force base was my son advised me to just follow the cars. We did and we finally reached inside the base where we could see streams of cars depositing the goods which was piled like mountains in the car park. Every thing was so orderly, people was so giving and volunteers were so swift that it brought tears to my eyes and I realised that despite our faults we are such a loving and giving nation in our times of needs. I really feel that we are a great nation.
Seema Ahmed, Karachi

Hamzaad whole relief effort has become a PR campaign and showng oneself doing better than the next guy. Army wants to save its image...mullahs want to make way to people`s hearts, terrorists are behaving like they never left their salvation army stores, every bhola, sheeda, and rattoo are busy posting links and telling people how they are helping....so some people were wondering where is professor sahib...here he is. but no foTo.

but here is a foTo....carefully look at the spontaneousness captured in this picture...everything is perfectly aligned for a good view. victims have become a PR tools for various parties to exploit.




on the other hand...CNN dropped earthquake story from top slot....ZTV spent half its time on cricket coup.....I switched channels for 2 hours this evening and could not get a single glimpse of the coverage...and did I tell I pay whopping $60 a month for it.

I fear world will foget in a week or so. already no one talks about NO....if it was not for Rita it would have been already over.

then people will go back to their ruined homes and try to figure how to put a roof over their heads....only hope is political implication might force army to stay engaged a little longer.

Friday, October 14, 2005

Quake unites Sikhs, Hindus, Christians as Pakistanis

MANSEHRA: Radesh Singh, a Pakistani Sikh and his group of Hindu, Christian and Muslim friends have joined forces to help survivors of the devastating earthquake in northern Pakistan.

They hope efforts to provide relief and care would send a clear message of tolerance in the predominantly Muslim Pakistan. “We are here without any religious bias for people who are in dire need of help and care,” Radesh told Reuters in Mansehra, a district in Northwest Frontier Province now in ruins after Saturday’s disaster.

“We are also hoping that our efforts will give out a message that people from different religious backgrounds and communities can live peacefully together and help each other,” he said. An estimated 96 percent of Pakistan’s population are Muslim, about 1.7 percent are Christian and some 2.0 percent are Hindu, while others account0 for less than 0.5 percent.

Minorities in Pakistan have been targeted by Islamic militants recently. Just last week there was a bomb attack on a religious centre of the Ahmadiyya sect in the central province of Punjab that killed eight and wounded more than a dozen.

Radesh, who runs his own business in the province’s capital, Peshawar, came with a truckload of medicines, blankets, clothing and dry food mustered by his Sikh friends Rajinder and Ranjit Singh, Hindus Prakash and Diyaram and Emmanuel, a Christian. “It is simply an effort on our parts for the earthquake victims, who are in dire need of help. We have come here as human beings not as Sikhs, Christians, Hindus or Muslims,” Ranjit said. Rajinder and his Sikh friends were born in Peshawar and say they are Pakistanis first, second and last. “I even ran for the local bodies elections this time but lost,” Rajinder said. On Wednesday night they were faced with a different kind of problem. Having heard of incidents of looting of private relief vehicles and violence in badly hit areas, Rajinder and his friends stopped over in Mansehra, saying he and his friends wanted to distribute the goods under the supervision of the army.

“We just want these goods to reach the deserving people. We have come here as human beings and don’t want to get involved in any violent incidents,” Emanuel said. reuters


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005 10 14 story_14-10-2005_pg7_39

Let us clear one thing that destruction is too much and we ( including ARMY, EDHI, etc) are not capable both in experience and equipment to recover. So mismanagement is there. We will see strong (or even unbelieveable) scenes of emotions but we will lack a trained and professional approach.
All will try to use or abuse the time. So lets face it and inspite of tell others to do this or do that just find other ways if one is blocked as in case of not giving visas to indians for relief efforts.
We can find a best possible way considering ones ownself and using all the information available from others who visited the area.
Lastly i will like to paste an email from a person who visited the affected area from our institute.

We went up as far as Balakot yesterday with some good trucks. Some facts so that everyone can make sound decisions:

1. The road upto Balakot and beyond is completely clear. There is no damage up until Shinkiari. Abbottabad has some fallen buildings but nothing substantial. Shinkiari and beyond things get bad, but access is very easy and possible.

2. There is a huge traffic jam now, perpetual and unending, most of it caused by cars accompanying trucks who just want to see. Better to ride in the trucks in case someone wants to go personally.

3. There is tremendous chaos and ill-discipline. No PROJECT OFFICE where all relief organizations can come together and establish a pattern of operation. I think 60% of their time is being spent running about doing nothing.

4. The only two organizations working in a disciplined manner with regard to delivery of goods and establishing services are the Army and Edhi. Their camps are organized, their delivery is substantial and the process seems to be running smoothly. We delivered half the stuff to Edhi and the other half to the Army Camp just short of Shinkiari. Subsequently, one of the trucks was taken directly to a village called ``Ouggi`` which had received very few supplies.

5. There is no need anymore for food. In fact, it is not wise to send uncooked items since there is no means for cooking. What is required now are tents and kafans as first priority, and blankets and epidemic controlling drugs as second priority.

6. Of course, the shortfall is happening seriously in terms of machinery to pull ppl out of the debris. International teams have been very effective, Pakistani teams utterly non-existent except for whatever the Army could pull together in terms of machinery.

7. The first emergency medical camp we saw was in Abbottabad, at Ayub Medical College. It was full of injured and dead. Also quite chaotic but somewhat more organized than the one in Mansehra.

8. The camp in Mansehra needs a PMO! There is all sort of political manouvreing going on to get goods and supplies to specific spots thru specific groups. I saw many politicians there - wont name them! - who were shaking hands and just generally checking up alongw/ their individual camera crews. For the 3 hours that we were there trying to find out who would take custody of our goods, we saw no progress other than doctors who were exhausted with looking after an unending line of injured. I saw more dishonest activity going on than I did serious work other than by the doctors. There were rooms full of medical supplies but they were all
getting wet and dirty due to the rain and hailstorm. I didnt see anyone make an effort to move them to safer, closed structures.

9. In terms of communication etc., cellular service is working all the way to the top, i.e till Sinkiari, in patches ofcourse. Whatever communication network you intend to set up, make sure you put ONE TEAM INCHARGE, to organize it. I would advise do it in collaboration with either Edhi or the Army. There isnt any other organization there that I felt was equipped to handle any substantial cross-town, across-territory work.

The Govt needs to have daily press briefing on the `Progress of Relief work` for information of the general public.

It should include the Army, NGOs Rep and UN Rep briefings.

This should result in a good coordination and a unified focus.

And except for the technical help or the help that is coming voluntarily from outside, Pakistan should stop begging for outside help.

With the great public help and the good work by the media and our own resources, we can pull it off honourably. And for God`s sake, get over this hangup of not giving Visas to the NGOs from India. (let them see it for themselves that there are no training camps)

nhk

It seems like everyone is trying to use this tragedy to push a political agenda. I wonder why? Is it possible to just comment on the earthquake. Interleaved in many such articles are comments about people`s political priorities. The maulvi brigade is trying to highlight the religious side, somehow, and relate it to this event. The anti-maulvi brigade is trying to ridicule the maulvis by highlighting the later`s shortcomings in predicting doomsday.

This article does the same, to some extent. A knock on the Americans. A knock on the maulvis. A couple of knocks on the Army. On jihad. And, of course, against the govt.

Why not just describe what is going on, on the ground, i.e. aid has not reached such and such place, and has reached such and such place. So and so worked efficiently, and so and so did not............

The TV media in Pakistan, in this case, has done an excellent job. It is truly their coming of age. I have been watching ARY, and they have reported the facts. No political agendas, for or against anyone. Even the politicians, themselves, after having initially taken potshots at each other and the govt., eventually calmed down......

However, the newspaper media has been very below-average. All the main writers are still pushing their agendas, with the earthquake as a background. One wants Benazir`s court cases dropped. Another wants less of more friendship with Indians. Another wants the govt. removed. Another is highlighting a few maulvis who said this is the price of our watching cable TV, etc.

That`s cheap popularity.......

Another thing that should be highlighted is that it is the job of every govt. servant to aid in the earthquake. Not just the Army`s. It is every govt. servant`s side job. If someone is a professor employed by the govt., it is their duty, as much as it is the Army officers, to be there. They should not, all, turn into reporters........

In any case, many of them are doing more than anything we are doing, sitting outside. But they should not all turn into critics. Specifically for pushing their political beliefs...........

Re: # 7
And all this time nobody believed me that Sikhs are helping also check my post on UP.

Good Article Dr. Hoodbhoy,
Events like this have been going on our planet since last 6-10 million years. I am glad that good people like you exist to help the victims.

For me tragedies like Katrina, EarthQuakes, Tsnuami reminds us that how short is our reach and power. While we are strong, powerful and young we forget that one day we all must die.

Howcome, poor people die ``dime-a-dozen`` and rich leaders/politicians always survive.

Maybe they give Rishwat to nature.....

Bhatti Saab #6: ``Hamzaad whole relief effort has become a PR campaign and showng oneself doing better than the next guy. Army wants to save its image...mullahs want to make way to people`s hearts, terrorists are behaving like they never left their salvation army stores, every bhola, sheeda, and rattoo are busy posting links and telling people how they are helping....so some people were wondering where is professor sahib...here he is. but no foTo.``

I don;`t think you are accurate. It really seems to be bothering you that everyone in Pakistan is working together. No one is trying to save their image. The reaction has been too spontaneous to do so.

When a whole area goes down, everyone gets affected. Politicians and their families have died. Brigade commanders and their families have died. Maulvis have died. I don`t know if there is anyone in Pakistan, who does not have an acquitance or two, who have died.

When such an event occurs, everyone jumps on board. Not for propoganda, but for goodwill. I think people outside Pakistan, are in shock, at seeing how the Pakistanis have united.

The Army does not have an image to save in Kashmir. Its image there is already very good. Much of Kashmir`s middle class and lower class is, itself, in the Army. It is quite highly respected there. People know it is their first and last defence against India, there.....And every single person is looking towards the Army for help. They are not looking at anyone else.........

You need to sit back and enjoy your real estate investments. And let the Pakistanis do what they are doing....................Instead of becoming an expert commentator..........The only comment you have made that makes sense is that, after a few weeks, the people may be forgotten. We will have to wait and see for that...........

On the whole, everyone seems to have done all that they can. There will be a few wrong decisions, and a few very wrong ones. People will have to analyse those. Obviously, the pre-planning for any such events was terrible. But the action, afterwards, though disorganized, has been very good...........

Pervez Hoodbhoy...
Thanks for your post and for your work in the relief effort. And thanks, too, to the organizers of Chowk for their contributions and for posting the ``Links for Donations.`` Making a donation on-line is simple, quick and oh-so-easy. mirmir

Dear Inter-actors:

I received the following information through an e-mail forwarded to me by some kind soul. Please contribute to the relief effort as much as you may afford. This is the least that we can do for easing the sufferings of the earthquake survivors.

Mohammad Gill


Pakistan earthquake relief instructions


Dear All,

This has to be quick.

We finally have a university van which we will take to Balakot in a few
hours from now and, hopefully, a hired truck as well. Subsequent rounds
will have different teams, with one common member for continuity. The road
is now open, from what we hear.

This morning I was able to persuade the QAU vice-chancellor to sanction
use of the van and open an official university account entitled ``QAU-EAF
Earthquake Relief Fund``. So, the money sent to the Eqbal Ahmad Foundation
(see instructions at the very end of this email) will be transferred
directly into this account to be jointly operated by the university
treasurer, the president of the academic staff association, and myself.
You now have all the details that you need. If there are further questions
on the procedure, please contact Dr. Zia Mian . I will
not be able to respond to emails for a while.

The Azad Kashmir VC in Muzzafarabad called the QAU VC while I was waiting
for the signatures to be done. He was pleading for students from QAU to
come and dig out some 300 university girls still buried under the rubble.
Some of our students have already gone there, but the problem is the
stench of rotting corpses. Nature continues to be needlessly cruel. There
was rain and hail this afternoon in Islamabad, and probably north of here
as well. I hope our 6-hour drive tomorrow will not be too problematic.

I am happy to say that my university students, who I have so often said
are disappointing academically, are nevertheless full of spirit and vigour
in helping in the relief effort. We have repeatedly had to turn down their
offers to help for lack of capacity.

Thank you again for your contributions, which keep increasing. After the
immediate crisis passes, we will use the remainder to rebuild
infrastructure. Several of you are not Pakistanis, and your solidarity in
these desperate moments is appreciated even more. It reinforces hope in
our shared humanity.

With warm regards,

Pervez

---

Pervez Hoodbhoy
Professor of Physics
Quaid-e-Azam University
Islamabad 45320, Pakistan.
Phone (R): 92-51-2824257
Phone (O): 92-51-2829914

---

INSTRUCTIONS FOR DEPOSIT


1. Please make CHECKS payable to `` EAF - EARTHQUAKE RELIEF FUND ``


2. Please PRINT OUT, SIGN and MAIL the following form, along with your
check :

Enclosed is a donation of

---

to the EAF - Earthquake Relief Fund.
I understand that this money will be used solely for the purpose of
purchasing and distributing earthquake relief and rehabilitation supplies
in Pakistan.

Name (please print):

---

Signature:

---

Address :

---

3. Please mail your check and this form to: Eqbal Ahmad Foundation
P.O. Box 222
Princeton, NJ 08542


The Eqbal Ahmad Foundation is a tax-exempt organization under section
501(c)(3) of the internal revenue code. Therefore, your donation is tax
deductible. If you wish to receive a letter acknowledging your donation
for tax purposes, please include your mailing address.


For tax purposes, all donation over $250 must include your name and
mailing address.


Should you have any questions about how to make or send a donation, please
contact the Foundation`s Vice President, Zia Mian, at zia@princeton.edu

Great article. Its really too bad that some of the readers on this board can`t bear to be reminded of how each major manipulating entity in Pakistan has worked in the past. The people of Pakistan and in the diaspora need to be vigilant that the supplies and funds meant for the earthquake survivors are received only by them with only our prayers and thoughts for their wellbeing.

Millions of dollars spent on destroying countries or having the ability to destroy our planet and nothing to look after the people of your country. This is inexcusable.

Re: # 15
Thanks A LOT for this!

A cruel blow...

over 10,000 est. students and teachers killed>

...Schools and colleges in the region`s capital, Muzaffarabad, and surrounding towns and villages were packed when the quake brought most of them crashing down.
left the devastated area for other parts of Pakistan.

Senior education department officials were unavailable for comment and no one knows the quake`s true toll but Shah (principal of the wrecked Government Education College in Muzaffarabad, the region`s teacher training college) estimated 10,000 students and teachers were killed.

The official death toll in Pakistani Kashmir stands at 25,000. But some local officials and politicians say deaths could exceed 40,000. Another 1,200 died in Indian Kashmir.

Shah is proud of Pakistani Kashmir`s education record, saying the region`s literacy rate is 65 percent and primary school enrolment nearly 95 percent. But most of those schools, as well as colleges and the city`s university are now in ruins.

``Buildings were constructed, teachers were trained, audio-visual aids were bought and libraries were established,`` he said.

But all that now lies in ruins.

Rescue teams have been digging the bodies of children out of schools across the region over recent days as distraught parents and relatives look on. Hundreds of bodies still lie under the rubble.

A British rescue worker said 900 children were killed in one school alone, most crushed to death at their desks as their school collapsed on top of them.

``The infrastructure was destroyed, including the education department, and the talented people were lost. It will take much time to improve,`` Shah told Reuters outside his shared tent in a city park. His house was destroyed in the quake.

``It is the greatest loss. We lost our talent, our future,`` he said. ``I feel quite miserable and sorrowful. It pains me very much.``

Shah said he had no idea who was alive or dead.

The headmaster of a middle school just outside Muzaffarabad said he was at work when the quake stuck but managed to rush out of the building to safety.

Saeed Bukhari`s school escaped relatively lightly. Out of 150 children, 25 were killed and 72 injured. Two of his 15 teachers were killed, he said.

``Unfortunately the cream of the generation has gone. It is a great loss,`` said Bukhari, who is also living out of an army tent in the city-centre Jalal Abad park.

``It will take much time,`` Bukhari said when asked how long it might take the education system to recover. ``There`s no government, no administration or law and order,`` he said.

Some had lucky escapes.

Shah`s son, Mubashar, is doing a masters degree in business studies at Muzaffarabad`s university and was on the way to classes when the quake struck.

``That day I was late,`` he said. His college was destroyed.

A true martyr......

He says he heard his 22-year-old teacher, Miss Kenza, shouting that she was alive, but as the hours passed the shouts stopped.

The French doubt that it could have been Miss Kenza who Shameer heard. They believe she died instantly.

``Her body was covering two children,`` said Mr Mornat. ``The first was dead but the second was alive. We think that she died trying to shield them as the building collapsed.``

BBC: Tale of the last survivor

as usual everything in Pakistan is rotten. everyone is corrupt - the army, the government, the moulvies, relief agencies. heck even the people who died are corrupt.

at a time like this, only one man stands between Pakistan and armageddon and he is Dr. Pervez Hoodboy.

#19 heart wrenching stories. about survivors...human spirit is amazing.

Romair, I have said it more than once in last 5 days that Pak awaam deserves all the appreciation for extending their help and heart out to the victims..there is no doubt about it...why you keep missing it and coming back to refering me as someone I am not? anyhow, My axis to grind is aginst few people who do little and make too much noise to reap awards and their motiavations for charity are political in nature....even our Dilli paie is getting erections thinking 2 or 3 sikhs helped.

Anyway..providing biscuits and kambals to the survivors will not solve their problems in the long run. It is good relief work by individuals at initial stage when everyone is in shock and out of food and clothes but after that immediate need is over a fully organized and disciplined rehabiliation program is needed. Individuals can help in the funding and background work but this desire to personally hand over your kambal and bag of cookies to the victim and getting appreciated for it is what I am against. lot of people doing that will not be seen in few weeks anywhere near there.

is there a point to this article besides giving hoodbhoy a chance to blow his own trumpet? and i can almost see washington post editors getting in touch with him to ask him for an expose on pak army and the zalzala.

unlike likes of hoodbhoy and asma jehangir, people who make a difference never seek publicity. couple of my pakistani investment banking acquaintences have raised tens of millions of rupees from their firms. i can guarantee you will not see their names in the press.

Re: # 21

Bhatti Sahib,

I spoke with my relatives two nights ago to find out their Khay Khariat, as our village is not too far from Islamabad. All is well there, and my cousin told me that our Pind`s Molvi Sahib gathered a group of 20 or so young men (late teens, early 20s) to take them to the affected area to take on EQ widows as wives. Last night I was learnt that their caravan was met by a group of Pathans and they had to turn back to get medical attention for some sort of soreness. Bhatti Sahib, our people always come to help of our people even if it results in a little pain in the ass.

Friday,14th Octuber,2005 8:22PM
Central Birmingham, United Kingdom.
Birmingham is the second largest city of UK and she homes one of the biggest Pakistani and Pakistani Kashmiri population in whole of Europe. Naturally , we in Birmingham we died million times when we heard of this earthquake in a country which gives us identity , Pakistan.
I woke up to open my shop at 6 am in the morning , at arround 6:15 am people started to come to my shop to ask for phone cards for Pakistan , came four or five people worried , I was thinking when I heard our local mosques loud speakers * it was for the first time in UK , I heard mosque in UK using loud speakers* it was Molvi Sahab that kind hearted soul,UCE educated person calling for ` for donations , for earth quake ` he could hardly speak , crying he spoke of devastation in Pakistan . I was shattered , I wonder if it all happened in Karachi ? * as I came from there * but it was Islamabad and almost half of Northern Pakistan , I shook my head thinking it must be a small one as always , things will settle down . At arround 10am, our neigbourhood was hushing towards me to check whats wrong with the phone cards which we sold in the morning , as call were not nothing through . Then came news that Dadyal , Mirpur , Chakswari suffered minor damage `thanks God` couple of mosque domes came down but nothing serious. Then came a figure of 5000 and I was shocked , whats happening ? then Muzzaffarabad, Balakot,Islamabad ` Allah , whats happening , whats wrong ? ` this can`t be my country ! but this has happened ! whats next ? Here I would like to add that areas near NWFP suffered most dustruction , Muzafarabad is one example ; Mirpur and Dadyal came into plain areas thus they surived.
Birmingham is boiling , so is United Kingdom , everyone is denoting with open hands , in the charity box in my shop in 3 days I collected more then 3,000 pounds , the small mosque collected more then 12,000 pounds , local primary school and secondly school collected 3,000 each - this is the money which we collected on just one road in Birmingham within 3 days - despatched to Pakistan . It`s intresting because the Gujratis in our area has totally ignored this earthquake incident as people who died are `non-living things` , Irish are pinching in with donations and the lady I know whos quite popular donated 120 pounds and is helping us too . The Evening Mail ( largest regional newspaper of this region ) had started a campaign as well . Yesterday , one of my customer , Gen. Sec of Kashmiri Fed. told me he collected 2,ooooo pounds in one day , he was crying with hapiness .
The two box in my shop displays a small note ,
` Abhi Nahi tu Kabhi Nahin , Agar App nay mulk ke ajj madad nahin ke tu app Pakistani kehlanay kay la-yekh- nahin rahah-en-gay , hum kabhi bhe British nahin ban saktay kyoon kay hum `British Pakistani` hain , thay aur rahangay`

re Field Marshal #10:

``Another thing that should be highlighted is that it is the job of every govt. servant to aid in the earthquake. Not just the Army`s. It is every govt. servant`s side job. If someone is a professor employed by the govt., it is their duty, as much as it is the Army officers, to be there. They should not, all, turn into reporters........``

All the harsh winters in Canuck land haven`t gotten this pithu parade robot to think straight. Just call the popularity hungry Professor when the lights go out, the plants need watering or when the horrible Injuns lob a few grenades across the LOC.

re faisaluno #22:

``unlike likes of hoodbhoy and asma jehangir, people who make a difference never seek publicity. couple of my pakistani investment banking acquaintences have raised tens of millions of rupees from their firms. i can guarantee you will not see their names in the press.``

Investment banks have programs setup to match charity donations made by their employees and in most cases they create special funds for particularly tragic situations also. It doesn`t require more than a phone call or e-mail to a couple of people to get the firms to setup those funds. Instead of trying to figure out the intentions of others, it would probably be better if you really got that Bloomberg terminal working. The guys who make the real money would really appreciate it.

later
-sac

My pakistani friends,

I had a long day on Friday (10/7/05) as went to work very early in the morning which is very unsual for me. I was on internet in my bed around 9:30pm that evening when I saw someone`s brief message from pakistan on a board regarding earthquake but there was nothing on yahoo or cnn. As my eyes were closing due to sleep while waiting to see some news..I fell asleep thinking might be minor one.

Next morning as I got up and saw the news on TV first thing was to call my family in Amritsar and find out how they are. I know if the same level of earthquake has to come in Amritsar area( which was thought so in early news, as was not clear about what area are effected) during night, I will probably lose more than half of my relatives. this very realization is the key in feeling empathy for the victims of this earth quake in pakistan. I have unequivocal sympathy for the victims and appreciation of Pakistani awaam who has come together in this difficult moment for their country to support the victims. Since due to my prior reservations about Pakistani ruling elite, army and utter disgust of mullahs ways I have criticized some aspects of the relief effort. I have also appreciated some aspects of relief effort in my posts but as they `hasaaye da naaN nai hunda, rowaaye da yaad rehnda` many of you have taken my posts very negatively. I am not going to back track on what I have said. I still believe my criticism and fears are well founded but since you guys are much more grieved, worried and in shock than I can probably emphathize, I will suspend all my comments on the issue for the time being. In the meantime hope that as relief reaches more far flung corners of the effected area, we don`t find more damage than that is already estimated.

Interesting article: (Complete article at http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5019727)

Preparing for the unknowable

``PAKISTAN`S earthquake measured 7.6 on a scale known as the moment magnitude. This measure, a successor to Richter, allows seismologists to compare the energy released by different earthquakes. At each step of the scale, about 32 times more energy is released than at the previous step. It has no upper limit, but the largest recorded earthquake was in southern Chile in 1960 and measured 9.5.

Earthquakes happen mostly where the earth`s tectonic plates collide. In Pakistan, quake activity is mainly concentrated in the northern and western sections of the country, along the boundary of the Indian, Iranian and Eurasian plates. The Indian plate is moving north at about 5cm a year, resulting in a force on the southern edge of the Tibetan plateau—the force that generates the Himalayas. As a result, earthquakes occur along the Himalayas all the way to Myanmar. (The movement of the Indian plate also caused the devastating Sumatra-Andaman earthquake and tsunami late last year.)

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In recent years, Pakistan has not suffered as greatly from earthquakes as its neighbours in the Himalayas, Afghanistan, Nepal, China and India. Its biggest earthquake in living memory occurred in Quetta in 1935, with 30,000 deaths. Nevertheless, Kashmir is seismically active on both sides of the border, with many regular, though less damaging, quakes. In 2002 in the Gilgit-Astore region, 100km (63 miles) north of Muzaffarabad, large earthquakes made about 16,000 people homeless.

Across the Himalayas there is what seismologists call a “slip deficit”—a lack of earthquakes to release the stress that is known to be accumulating. The Kashmir quake was in just such a region, where a great earthquake was overdue. Nevertheless, Roger Bilham, of the University of Colorado, says it is doubtful that the Kashmir quake released more than one tenth of the cumulative energy stored there. Furthermore, in the past half-century the Himalayan region has seen fewer powerful earthquakes than might be predicted from historical records.....................

Saminshah #16: ``Great article. Its really too bad that some of the readers on this board can`t bear to be reminded of how each major manipulating entity in Pakistan has worked in the past. The people of Pakistan and in the diaspora need to be vigilant that the supplies and funds meant for the earthquake survivors are received only by them with only our prayers and thoughts for their wellbeing.``

Could you explain why this is a, ``Great article.`` How is it any different than any other article that describes a visit to this area. Thousands of poeple have visited the area, like Hoodbhoy has done. Why is this great. One could go with, ``good.`` Maybe. But, ``Great?``

People should definitely keep an eye on two things:

- Ensure the govt. and other agencies efficiency, based on thier capabilities are recorded
- Ensure that money is spent correctly and not siphoned off

They should also do the following:

- Give credit where it is due, regardless of their own beliefs
- Only become critics, if they are doing something more

Their are certain things people should not do:

- Push their own politica agenda. Unfortunately, the English newspaper media is on top of the list on this. The first article I read from Irfan Hussain, had the following feature: Certain maulvis had predicted God`s wrath on Katrina, what are they saying about Kashmir, now. Talk about being heartless and pushing his own agenda. Najam Sethi said Benazir`s cases should be dropped in Switzerland, by the govt. so she can come and unite Pakistan. Then one realizes he is the editor of a paper owned by a PPPliya. Tariq Ali went after the Americans for not sending more helicopters and for bigger govts. So on and so forth........This article does the same, to some extent, i.e. tries to push personal political agendas, also, between otherwise reasonable points. I will highlight the following:


- The army’s presence is important and positive, but no senior officers appeared to be present. (What does this mean. How many places did he visit. Why should senior officers be present. The seniormost officer in the area in a Brigadier, who lost his own son)

- Islamic groups...... simple tillers of the soil to tell them that their misdeeds brought about this catastrophe. None seem to have an explanation for why God’s wrath was especially directed to mosques, madrassas, and schools (another cheap shot. how many Islamic groups did he meet. A group is a pretty large organization. Did anyone see this on TV at a large scale. I certainly didn`t)

- Chinook helicopters, diverted from fighting Al-Qaida in Afghanistan, Temporarily birds of peace instead of war, (why bring the Afghan war into this. USA has sent Chinooks. We should be thankful. Belive me they are the right type of helicopter, for this. Why go after the USA, in this case..........It is helping. Or why not just say that it is nice of the USAA to send Chinooks. Or that it should have sent more, etc. Only mention Afghanistan if it had a direct impact on relief efforts)...........

The actual people who deserve credit and should be listened to are the people working there day and night. Be they from the Army, Islamic groups, or Chinook pilots from the USA. They all deserve our respect, and not our politics.............

Too many people trying to hog the limelight in Pakistan...........The true workers, do work quitely (unless their job is media.......)

one thing that is clear that in the event of such a calamity, a FEMA type speacialist organization is needed to gets come sense of control in the chaos. pak govt should oursource this ..maybe request FEMA help, or some other experienced agency help, its not too late. its not worth to ``learn on the job`` and than fight about laurels or blame

Re: # 28

Romair,

In no way was I denigrating the considerable and extremely laudable efforts of all the relief workers in Pakistan as well as civillians, military personnel and clergy who are doing the right thing in serving the survivors of this terrible catastrophe. I do appreciate that people from all political and religious beliefs are capable of great lucidity and generosity especially when they are called on to help each other.

However, I do not think it is a bad thing to keep in mind the excesses and problems that developed in past disasters. It is not a bad thing for the press and all of us to hold all our institutions accountable for how this emergency is handled. Pakistani Americans, as you know, have overwhelmingly responded to this emergency. I am proud to be Pakistani American esp. in the last few days in light of the local efforts being made to sent money, clothes and meds. And I have no doubt that the all the people who working in all their capacities in Pakistan are doing right by the survivors and all of Pakistan.

But again, I think it is important to be aware of some of the points that Prof. Hoodbhoy has raised-lets be frank here. US Aid comes with some altruism, but mainly with the hopes of good pr. Isnt it a powerful idea to be reminded that a superpower influences the international community with policies based on relief efforts than domination?

Re: # 24
that was moving it was similar story in sheffield, our local mosque collected £12000 first day. it`s been said there are more dadyali in birmingham than dadyal itself. about Irish people some of the most kind hearted people i`ve met are Irish.

BTW
Dublin is booming there is a large pakistani community there now, mostly from sialkot.

Romair #10

`` It seems like everyone is trying to use this tragedy to push a political agenda. I wonder why? Is it possible to just comment on the earthquake. Interleaved in many such articles are comments about people`s political priorities. The maulvi brigade is trying to highlight the religious side, somehow, and relate it to this event. The anti-maulvi brigade is trying to ridicule the maulvis by highlighting the later`s shortcomings in predicting doomsday. ``

It must hurt having to taste your own medicine !!!

People are victims of their own progaganda. Pakistani Army has tried to portray itself to the Pakistani public as this invincible army. With 20 transport helicopters how do you expect to fight a million man enemy. I n a war what makes you think Indian Air Force cannot blast narrow hills of Kashmir creating landslides to cut off communication lines.

The Maulvis has never missed a chance to rail against the misfortunes of people in the West. Everything is portrayed as a result of following Islam and not following Islam. They can try to rationalize this earthquake.

This is a very emotionally traumatic time for the survivors and even concerned bystanders. Although it is a natural disaster and man stands largely helpless before nature, we must still reflect a moment to ask ourselves if we could do something differently or better that would effect the aftermath of such natural occurrences?

The Indian Ocean tsunami and this earthquake seem to suddenly have come out of nowhere. Their devastation far exceeds any other recent natural tragedy. However, in so far as the collective conscious of the world is concerned the aftermath of hurricane Katrina does not seem too far behind although the death toll there was much smaller.

Is there a common theme in these events? It seems that there is one.

The gods may or may not have any culpability here, but man surely does. It is his lack of imagination and anticipation that makes these potentially destructive natural forces truly catastrophic.

While hurricanes can be tracked in plenty of time to save people, earthquakes are said to come without warning. That is not necessarily true. Earthquakes mostly come in already quake-prone regions. And it is a well known fact that earthquakes themselves do not kill, its the badly build building that kill. Okay, granted, that it`s a bit different in mountains where a random landslide can kill indiscriminately. But for the most part death and injury results from collapsing buildings.

If this is the case then why do we build the way we do, using materials inappropriate for quake prone areas?

The answer is usally some excuse about poverty and lack of resources etc. But the resource that is most lacking is imagination and common sense. Rich or poor is a secondary issue. Why build a city below sea level on a huricane prone coast? Or, why use inflexible construction materials like cement and concrete in geologically unstable areas?

The Japanese get more earthquakes, and severe ones, than anyone else in the world. Yet, they have not sustained any heavy casualties in recent times. Could we learn something from them? Could we have been building like the Japanese for the last few decades?

The fundamental problem seems one of human nature. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. I think when Pandora released all the spirits from the box, blind hope became a mechanism too great to be overcome by Cassandras screaming about terrible possible futures. This is why efforts at prevention have been doomed to failure under most circumstances. Humans pretend that they are rational creatures, capable of abstract thinking, but they are, like all animals, grounded in experience. Think of the people of Pompi, living on the side of Mount Vesuvius. Until it happens, most assume it will not happen, at least to them.

The past cannot be undone and for now all effort must remain focused on relief work. But in time, this too will pass, as does everything. But then what? Can we change some attitudes and think and plan along such lines as would help soften the blows from future events? This is the real chanllange... Can we do better in future?

Scanning the horizon we see another big one coming. This one is potentially really big. I speak of the anticipated avian flu pandemic. Is the region prepared? Building nuclear firecrackers does not a technologically an advence country make.

It time to shake off the complacency, shed the blinders and look the future squarely in the eye.

...SR

sac, it pays to think before opening your mouth and exposing yourself for the fool you are. since firms are matching employee contribution, half of the tens of millions of rupees raised has to be from private contributions. even you should be able to calculate that this would be a substantial amount. also pretty much any global firm of repute matches charitible giving. if its so easy to raise this kind of money, please let us know how much have you and your friends been able raise?

SR #33 You make some very good points. and no less is expected of you :-). In the article below that I wrote (on preparing for Aftershocks), someone suggested lightweight building material. Although not sure of its applicability in the subcontinent, this is exactly the kind of thinking that needs to go on. Nor should be look at the governments for help either - communities need to get organized and be prepared for the Next Big One (we hope it will not occur...but it could almost anywhere in south asia, given what we know about plate tectonics in that region).

SR #33

`` This is a very emotionally traumatic time for the survivors and even concerned bystanders. Although it is a natural disaster and man stands largely helpless before nature, we must still reflect a moment to ask ourselves if we could do something differently or better that would effect the aftermath of such natural occurrences?

The Indian Ocean tsunami and this earthquake seem to suddenly have come out of nowhere. Their devastation far exceeds any other recent natural tragedy. However, in so far as the collective conscious of the world is concerned the aftermath of hurricane Katrina does not seem too far behind although the death toll there was much smaller.

Is there a common theme in these events? It seems that there is one.

The gods may or may not have any culpability here, but man surely does. It is his lack of imagination and anticipation that makes these potentially destructive natural forces truly catastrophic.

While hurricanes can be tracked in plenty of time to save people, earthquakes are said to come without warning. That is not necessarily true. Earthquakes mostly come in already quake-prone regions. And it is a well known fact that earthquakes themselves do not kill, its the badly build building that kill. Okay, granted, that it`s a bit different in mountains where a random landslide can kill indiscriminately. But for the most part death and injury results from collapsing buildings. ``

The problem with hurricanes is that there is so many of them. In hindsight Rita avoided Houston but look at the mess created by the un-necessary evacuvation of Houston. If Katrina did not put the fear of god a lot of people who evacuvated during Rita would be riding out the storm. If you cry wolf too many times then people stop listening to you.


`` If this is the case then why do we build the way we do, using materials inappropriate for quake prone areas? ``

Earthquakes are not common in Indian subcontinent. War and Famine killed more people than earthquakes. That explains the behavior of people.


`` Scanning the horizon we see another big one coming. This one is potentially really big. I speak of the anticipated avian flu pandemic. Is the region prepared? Building nuclear firecrackers does not a technologically an advence country make. ``

Killer germs are a ticking time bomb

Saminasha #30: ``However, I do not think it is a bad thing to keep in mind the excesses and problems........ institutions accountable for how this emergency is handled.``

Definitely. This is very important. I think some independent agency like Transparency Int`l etc., must audit everything and keep an eye on everything.

``But again, I think it is important to be aware of some of the points that Prof. Hoodbhoy has raised-lets be frank here. US Aid comes with some altruism........ superpower influences the international community with policies based on relief efforts than domination?``

This may be true. But I am afraid I cannot agree with this, in relation to this tragedy. What USA is doing in other parts of the world and what it has done here are two different things. They need to be kept separate. I have been, perhaps, the most vocal critic of the US foreign policy (Iraq etc.) on this site. And will continue to be. I gave up a potential US citizenship, for such reasons.

However, in this case, the USA has helped. It has given $50 million. And will give more. Its Secretary of State arrived in Pakistan. Its press has covered the issue. And most of all, it has given Chinooks and Blackhawk helicopters........

There are couple of things poeple need to understand. Pakistan`s helicopters are tiny. These Chinooks are gigantic. These Chinooks and Blackhawks are going to save so many lives. It is impossible to get to some of the areas, without helicopters. At the same time, flying such large helicopters, in such terrian is extremely dangerous. You have to have experienced such things to understand. It becomes even more dangerous if one does not have ground communication, radars etc. And the American pilots have never flown there, making it even more dangerous.

On top of this, all the helicopter pilots are probably flying night and day. Imagine driving a car for that long and multiply it by 10. I am just waiting to hear that one has crashed. That is how dangerous it is.

Whomever, it is from the USA, who is flying those helicopters, has my respect and gratitude, for whatever its worth. Hats off to them. I don`t know what they did in Afghanistan and what they did not do. But, believe, these American pilots deserve a medal from Pakistan.........And I hope they get one........

Based on this, I find this part of Hoodbhoy`s argument very self-serving. These guys have done a 100 times what he has done. No one will ever know the names of the pilots. Yet he will be on the media, critiquing them, and mixing two mutually exclusive events (Afghanistan and this event) to score his own political points............

That is uncalled for...........

Re: # 37 Romair

``These Chinooks and Blackhawks are going to save so many lives. It is impossible to get to some of the areas, without helicopters. At the same time, flying such large helicopters, in such terrian is extremely dangerous. You have to have experienced such things to understand. It becomes even more dangerous if one does not have ground communication, radars etc``

So, why is your Army refusing equally gigantic Indian helicopters and even more experienced Indian pilots` help who fly all over Kashmir to help out when your poor and injured desperately need help? What is your Army trying to protect or hide?

Professor Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy is an eminent Pakistani Physicist trained (Ph.D., Postdoctoral and visiting faculty appointments) in most prestigious Universities in USA. Like many good American Academics, Professor Hoodbhoy is socially and politically active and speaks his mind fearlessly contributing thoughtful analyses on major issues in newspapers, magazines etc. He was an early opponent of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program and more recently he has been a critic of squandering of huge sums of money on what he considers “ill advised” programs of the Higher Education Commission of Pakistan. He has contributed a piece to www.chowk.com an internet magazine of Pakistanis and Indians based in North America. Since I share much of his vision on many issues and I have interacted with him from time to time, I will take this opportunity to express my disappointment at some of the things he has written in his chowk.com piece.

In the very first paragraph, he writes:
“From under the rubble of collapsed buildings, a gut-wrenching smell of decaying corpses now fills the town. The rats have it good; the one I accidentally stepped upon was already fat.” I am sorry, Pervez, under the circumstances of the present tragedy, this language is in poor taste. I did not expect this from you at this juncture even though it was written for chowk where being a bit raunchy may be fashionable.

Speaking of Jihadis/Islamists some of whom have descended on the affected areas with relief goods while others simply “harangue poor goat herders and simple tillers of the soil to tell them that their misdeeds brought about this catastrophe”, he writes:
“None seem to have an explanation for why God’s wrath was especially directed to mosques, madrassas, and schools – all of which have collapsed in huge numbers. And none say why thousands of the faithful have been buried alive in this sacred month of fasting.” It seems that Dr. Hoodbhoy has his own explanation but he is holding back on us shying away from blame game. To avoid playing the blame game is now the announced code of conduct among analysts on the media and among the politicians- government and opposition alike. It is not that everyone is strictly adhering to it-whenever an opportunity lends itself they slip in a comment about inefficiency and corruption of the government whose representatives in turn quip back with sharper attacks. But why, Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy would spare the corruption of those responsible for building schools with inferior and inadequate material costing the lives of nearly the whole school going generation is beyond me.

The most serious slip is in the following passage:
For me personally, there was a sense of dejavu. Nearly 31 years ago, on 25th December 1974, a powerful earthquake had flattened towns along the Karakorum Highway killing nearly 10,000 people. I had traveled with a university team into the same mountains for similar relief work. Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto had made a passionate appeal for funds around the world, taken a token helicopter trip to the destroyed town of Besham, and made fantastic promises for rehabilitation. But then hundreds of millions of dollars in relief funds received from abroad mysteriously disappeared. Some well-informed people believe that those funds were used to kick off Pakistan’s secret nuclear program.
As mentioned earlier, Dr. Hoodbhoy was an early opponent of Pakistan’s nuclear program. To explain my own bias, let me state that that I too opposed Pakistan’s nuclear explosion in May 1998, which followed the Indian explosions. After the Indian explosions, there was a debate in the country whether or not Pakistan should follow suit. At the University of Karachi, I was an organizer of the Seminar opposing Pakistan’s possible decision to jump in. So, not only do I support Dr. Hoodbhoy’s right to oppose Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program, I actually share his vision about it, i.e., that acquiring nuclear weapons has made Pakistan less and not more secure. Having said that, let me express my disappointment over Dr. Hoodbhoy’s quoting an old heresy that hundreds of millions of dollars of earthquake aid was diverted to kick off Pakistan’s secret nuclear program. To recycle this accusation at this time is patently irresponsible. Yes, we should stand guard against corruption and make utmost efforts that all aid is consumed transparently. But in the present international climate of heightened sensitivity regarding nuclear weapons and fears of terrorism, these comments are likely to adversely affect the fund raising for relief.


There are some surprises in what Dr. Hoodbhoy did not say. Setting aside “no blame game” code of conduct, I would start by questioning why certain things were not done.

1) It seems to me that immediately after the quake, we should have requested the big brother for satellite images. These images could have been received within hours.
2) In the meantime, Pak army’s paratroop units should have been alerted for possible action and the senior officers of those units summoned by COAS/President for meeting and review of satellite images and possible action.
3) Immediate collection of light equipment which could be used in the situation (axes, picks, shovels, wheel barrows etc.) which could be parachuted down, should have begun.
4) A very high profile appeal for helicopters should have gone out in a manner that could affect politically the potential donors if they dragged their feet. Remember that during the 1970 cyclone of East Pakistan, Senator Edward Kennedy and other Democrats lashed out at President Nixon for not coming through with helicopters for relief work while hundreds of US helicopters were available (in Viet Nam) only a few hundred miles away. As I recall it had desired effect. Needless to say the number of helicopters made available for earthquake relief is too little and too late.
5) Based on the detailed analysis of satellite images for the extent and locations of damage, the paratroop units of the Pak army and relief helicopters should have reached the remotest affected locations by the second day at the latest. It was possible.
6) I would imagine that a scientist of Professor Hoodbhoy’s caliber would be more candid and specific about the direction of reconstruction efforts that he would like to see. Should we have more of the same (concrete based construction-only with better standards) or go for wooden structures and risk massive deforestation or should we seek newer synthetic materials for construction. Should we seek to relocate villages and small towns extensively or let the people come back to their original places of abode. What type of civic infra structure should be envisioned and as a Physicist what specific suggestions he has for alternate and renewable sources of energy for these areas which could be restored within a minimum time period after natural disasters.
7) As we proceed with reconstruction how to ensure that these efforts would provide new jobs and training for the displaced people rather than becoming a bonanza for outside contractors.
8) And last but not the least, how do we rehabilitate the affected population of survivors which has suffered extreme mental and physical trauma.

Re: # 38

Hey Biatch,

Read the BBC article about this.

#39
I doubt Prof. Hoodbhoy even reads the responses here and it`s no use addressing anything to him. AFAIK, he has never answered anyone here.
I agree with you that his comments about stepping on a fat rat are in a very bad taste. It`s as if he were a detached observer commenting to an audience that is equally detached but curious nonetheless.
I think too much is made of low (read inexpensive) construction quality as somehow preventable. Except perhaps in wealthy enclaves of urban areas this was completely out of anyone`s control since pucca construction with reinforced concrete cement is very expensive. In a region that has not seen destructive earthquakes in a long while it would be hard to come up with the money to do it. Even in the future it would be nearly impossible to ensure proper construction in most places unless the govt comes up with the funds magically. I think RCC construction would be the most practical and cheapest of all alternatives.
Regardless, it is heart-wrenching that so many children died in schools and pucca construction of school buildings and emergency drills for school children has to be the foremost priority.
Your criticism of Pervez Hoodbhoy`s accusation re: funneling money to the nuclear program as somehow untimely,assumes that he is able to influence donors. I think you`re over reacting. If this rumor has been around, repeating it at this or any other time will make no difference.
Finally, since you mention helicopters, do you know why the indian offer was turned down? Is that decision understandable?

soyasauce:

I doubt Prof. Hoodbhoy even reads the responses here and it`s no use addressing anything to him. AFAIK, he has never answered anyone here.

that isn`t quite accurate. dr. hoodbhoy has responded to some interactors here. a very rare occurence, but to say never, well, never say never again. :)

Madam, it`s soysauce not soyAsauce. Thanks for the info but I did say AFAIK.

and it`s not madam, it`s ana. with apologies. :)

re: this article
I have this question for Professor Hoodhbhoy. Can he please tell us why Pak govt is so much opposed to taking help from India during this disaster? It just does not make sense. Here is a perfect confidence building measure and Pak is blowing it away.
Sridhar

Re: # 45

rsridhar,

all you have to do is look in the mirror .............

Re: # 46

Hamidm Sahib:

``all you have to do is look in the mirror .............``

Even such those hearts melt and minds soften. Remember George Wallace.

Anil

True heroes:

``Six die in Pak Army relief helicopter crash
(Updated at 0850 PST)
MUZAFFARABAD: A helicopter of Pakistan Army that went to dispatch relief goods in affected areas on Saturday was crashed and six army personnel in it, were martyred.

The helicopter, MI-17 crashed in forward area from quake-hit Bagh during a relief operation. The military found the wreckage including the bodies of four military officers and two technicians in Chhapri area at 1:30 in midnight, military spokesman Maj. General Shaukat Sultan said.

Three martyred officers have been identified as senior pilot Lt. Col. Roghani, senior pilot Captain Rahim and Major Umar Baig Mirza.``

These helicopter pilots are probably the most important group of people in Pakistan, at the moment. They are the only ones who can reach the real remote areas. And they are flying the most difficult helicopters flight in the world. I cannot think of any more difficult terrain, and any pressure that can be greater.

There are helicopters from USA, Germany, Afghanistan and perhaps a few other countries. I think the very large American helicopters are operating out of Pindi. While the Pakistani Mi-17s are operating out of the local areas, and are going deep into the terrian. While the smaller Pakistani Lama and Allueotte helicopters (with two persons) are going very deep into the narrow areas............

Hats of to all of them............

Re: # 47

anil,

rsridhar is no george wallace - some people are beyond reprieve .......... when you run across people like him the concept of hell is rather comforting .............

rsridhar : george wallace was the governor of balucistan who hated hindoos and wanted to banish them all to hind - he once said , ``segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.``

Earthquake helicopter `heroes`

Well - good paki = dead paki...

Re: # 50
This is why declining india`s offer of helicopters is so mystifying. So many more thousands could have been saved. But the dictator decided it wasn`t worth it for reasons known only to him.

Here`s an amazing rescue story that I came across a month ago.

Oops, here`s the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4139002.stm

`Pak feared exposure of militant camps`


October 16, 2005 18:37 IST

Accusing Pakistan of adopting an ``indifferent attitude towards the people of quake-ravaged Pakistan-occupied Kashmir``, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front has said Islamabad ``turned down international help in the rubble-strewn areas because of fear of ``exposure`` of militant camps there.

``One wonders why the Indian offer of help was refused, which could have saved hundeds of lives and could also have boosted the confidence between both governments. The answer to this is simple if we take militant camps into account,`` senior JKLF leader Shabir Chaudhury said in a statement from London.

Despite all the claims of dismantling militant training camps, he said, the open secet was that they were fully operational with more than 3,000 militants fom various nationalities.

``These camps were located in various parts of PoK and in Balkote and Manshera,`` he added.

``Unlike what happens in this part of the world, the natural disaster when it struck didn`t distinguish between a man with a gun and a civilian. They, like other civilians, were either killed, injured or were under the rubble,`` he said and added, ``at last, to the relief of some, the camps wee dismantled by forces of nature``.

``What explanation could the Pakistan government give if some militants from Bangladesh, Sudan, Algeria and Egypt are seen? This could have been very embarrassing for the military government of General Pervez Musharraf who on more than one occasion claimed there were no camps,`` the JKLF leader said while reasoning Pakistan`s turning down of India`s offer for joint relief and rescue efforts in PoK.

Re: # 54

it is hard to imagine india being able to help anyone


`Cruel joke` of India`s relief effort

........ but there is no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face .... pakistan should accept all relief materiel from india as long as they are escorted by pakistani security forces .......... we don`t want them wandering off looking for chemist shops in rawalpindi ............

arjun_m #54
The Pakistani determination that it is better for Kashmiris to be dead than benefit from anything Indian has been seen before in the ruthless killings by jihadis of even local bodies election candidates and voters in J&K. A mere earthquake and more dead Kashmiris changes nothing.

http://www.earthquakepakistan.com/

#55
So the point is india`s offer could not be accepted because india was going to bungle its own rescue efforts?
Has the dictator published a list of conditions along with the recent appeal for helicopters?

hamidm #50 one of those helicopters mentioned in your post crashed killing six army people on hilly terrain at haji pir while engaged in relief work.

Re: # 56

frau sadna,

.......... it is good to see you back in action ..... i see that you and your ilk have learned from your master, herr goebbels : ``The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over`` ........ bravo, or should i say, heil !

hamid - the tragedy seems to have brought out the delusional paki fool in you. Sad.

Re: # 61

ranger mian,

not really ......... i had frau sadna figured out many many years ago - at that time her only objection had been that she should be addressed as fraulein ........ you should get together with her and arjun - you will have a ball feasting on carrion ...........

#55 by hamidm2 on October 16, 2005 9:37am PT


it is hard to imagine india being able to help anyone


RTFA? Let me quote...and highlight...


``Thank god for them, and the army. If they had not been around, we would have perished of hunger and cold,`` he said.

hmm...so the pakis let their citizens die because accepting indian or israel help would be bad for the dignity of the paki ruling class elite...and the indians are the ghouls...

Helicopters now, mules later for quake aid

UN and Pakistani officials have desperately appealed for the world to send more helicopters to help out. During a visit to Muzaffarabad on Friday, Information Minister Sheikh Rashid said extra choppers were vital.

One option remains out of the question -- helicopters from Pakistan`s neighbour and long-time foe India.

``There is a place with hundreds of helicopters that could easily bring food, blankets and tents, and that is in Indian
Kashmir,`` a senior aid official said on condition of anonymity, referring to the disputed Himalayan territory that is split between New Delhi`s and Islamabad`s control.

``But the first thing the Pakistanis told us after the earthquake was that they would take helicopters from anywhere except India and Israel.``

hamidm #60 #61
I had you all figured out a long time ago too, I simply took a look at Afghan war death tolls.

From Jang:

Quake toll leaps past 53,000, could reach 80,000 says PM

Excerpts: ... the number of lives at risk was in thousands. ``We’ve seen cases of diarrhoea, fever and respiratory infections appearing in recent days,`` he said. And the World Health Organisation said that as well as the risk of infectious disease among survivors huddling together in unsanitary conditions, there was a grave risk of hypothermia as winter snows begin settling on mountain peaks..

PMs interview with CNN, praises zeal to help shown by the people of Pakistan

Excerpts:

(Aziz) praised the devotion and zeal of the people to help their brothers in the need of hour and said the sense of caring and sharing with these victims had united the nation.

Besides shifting the injured to major hospitals of Rawalpindi and Islamabad, the prime minister said, the government had also established 17 field hospitals in various areas to provide immediate medical treatment at the spot.

Shaukat appreciated the efforts of Minister for Special Education Zubaida Jalal and asked her to be prepare for 400 children who were being discharged from the hospitals. The prime minister along with his wife Rukhsana Aziz first visited the Federal Government Services Hospital.

He was informed that 866 patients were under treatment in the Hospital which included 468 male and 398 female children. He was informed that 147 children were admitted to the hospital and out of which 90 are still there and getting treatment.

He and his wife announced Rs 1,000 and clothes to every child before being discharged from the hospital. Later, The prime minister along with his wife visited the National Institute of Special Education, where Minister for Special Education Zubaida Jalal received them.

Shaukat was informed that 50 children had been admitted to the Institute where volunteers including girl guides and boy scouts are helping them. Zubaida Jalal informed the prime minister that doctors and paramedical staff were available in the institute to provide any sort of treatment while meal was also being provided to the children and their relatives.

The prime minister and his wife distributed gifts of biscuits, chocolates and toys among the children on this occasion. The children and their relatives thanked the prime minister and the government for providing them best possible treatment in the Institute and for taking proper care.

Zubaida told the prime minister said the Ministry of Special Education had other centres, where more children would be accommodated. The prime minister also lauded the efforts of Pakistan Army for bringing these children to Islamabad by helicopters especially from the remote and inaccessible areas like Chakhoti, Bagh and other damaged areas.

Pakistanis helping Pakistanis: bbc news item


Excerpt:

....The people were hungry and he provided them with food. He was fulfilling his obligations as a Pakistani citizen and, for that matter, as a Muslim.

Pakistanis have a strong philanthropic culture. The rich (and even those that have little) often give to those who have less.

Re: # 65

sadna,

uh ?........ how does the afghan war figure in all this ? ......... my grandparents emigrated from afghanistan in the 1920`s and i have no sympathy for the incorrigible pathans who refuse to come indoors and live like civilized people ....... but i don`t have anything against the horrible hindoos other than the hate-filled few on chowk who have a knife to grind that they then hide under their arm and run around taking ram`s name in vain ............. i know a lot of indians who are decent human beings - hopefully the sample on chowk is not representative of a billion people ...........