Bye Bye NAM, Hello Realpolitik!

Re: # 291

behram:

let me give you a scenario and get your response to it:

Lets say, your neighbour has reared a nasty dog. One fine day, this dog bites you real hard in your own yard because of which you get stiches. In the evening your neighbour comes to your house and apologies. You forgive the dog.

Next week, the dog once again bites you, because of which you have to get stiches and antibiotics. your neighbour once again apologizes but at the same time leaves leaves the dog free to come into your yard.

One more week and the dog is yet again in your yard and bites you real hard....

what are you going to do. just accept your neighbours deepest sympathies, time and again or get a rifle and kill that beeeyatch wherever you find it.

arjun_M:
expect hamidm and romair to ignore your post #321

#318 by HisExcellency on October 30, 2005 10:47am PT


Kashmir are millstones around India`s neck.


mmmkay...if you say so...



High cost of the conflict

According to a study carried out by Ijaz Nabi and his associates at the World Bank, private investment in India and Pakistan was about the same in 1982-1991. However in 1992-2001, private investment in Pakistan was six percentage points lower than in India. A part of this gap — say about 75 per cent — can be attributed to the deterioration of the investment climate in Pakistan caused by the rise of Islamic militancy in the country which in turn was associated with the Kashmir problem.

These factors lowered investment rates in Pakistan by 4.5 percentage points compared to that in India. This implies loss in growth of at least one percentage point of GDP. Stable relations with India would have brought economic and perhaps also economic stability to Pakistan. This would have produced better investment climate in the country and contributed to higher levels of domestic savings and investment. This would have also contributed to increasing the rate of GDP growth.

In sum a good case can be made that Pakistan, in particular, has paid a very heavy economic, social and political cost for continuing to keep the Kashmir case on the front burner. This is a good time to take a very hard look at the cost-benefit calculus of the position the country has adopted in the past over the dispute in Kashmir. The situation has begun to change largely because of the promise of peace between India and Pakistan. New investments have begun to flow into the country in particular from the Arab world; Pakistan’s own private sector has become active; the rate of economic growth has picked up perceptibly; the incidence of poverty has begun to decline; Pakistan now seems ready to join other fast growing Asian economies. It would be a pity if Kashmir is allowed to intervene once again in the form of a dispute that attracts extremist elements in both countries. They will try to derail the process on which India and Pakistan are currently engaged. Both Delhi and Islamabad must resist these attempts.

Funny how it`s gone from we`ll snatch Kashmir from those cowardly hindus to we`re ready to take Kashmir off your hands because it`s good for you...

Let`s face it..the Paki army needs the Kashmir issue to perpetuate it`s own rule on Kashmir...Without Kashmir, people may question the need for schools for petting zoos...and they might ask why Pakistan has no company to match Infosys/Wipro/Reliance(which, BTW, is providing internet service to Pakiland).....

re:#300 by hindvi
I do not want to take this topic off course. The muslim problem is a seperate topic in itself. May be you should write an article in Chowk. I would like to respond then.
Sridhar

Re: # 318

Allowing Kashmir to secede is a short-term investment in the supra-national South Asian Union.


Dude, do you want Sharia with it??. FYI, Indians no longer like being ``dhimmis``.. No thanks..

re: #312 dost-mittar

++
India wouldn`t hurt if Manipur leaves and it would, in my opinion, be stronger if it gets out of Kashmir
++

Dost-mittarji, I couldn`t agree with you more. Manipur and Kashmir are millstones around India`s neck. Like Israel, India also needs a cost-benefit analysis of occupying these states. Kashmir is to India what Gaza is to Israel.

++
Instead of new states, what the world needs, in my opinion, is a supra-nationalist organization which can protect human rights of everyone in this world, with such rights enforceable by an international agency with real teeth
++

Nationalism is the greatest obstacle to the emergence of such a state. The EU is gradually evolving into a supra-nationalist organization. But 70 years ago, there was no possibility of Germans, French, Italians, British and Spaniards collaborating on a common parliament, common currency and common market.

To accomplish the same model in South Asia, you need to implement the following roadmap:

1) Grant autonomy to Kashmir and Manipur. This will remove the biggest impediments in functioning of SAARC and SAFMA. India`s relations with Pakistan will also improve considerably.

2) For 5-10 years, the Kashmiris and Manipuris will continue to feel bitter about India. A growing Indian economy will offer the balm to Indian people for loss of Kashmir & Manipur. During this period, SAFMA and SAARC will become much more effective. Military spending in South Asia will gradually decrease.

3) As bitterness of the past recedes and trade expands, the hard borders between India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will become soft. In due course, visa requirements can be eliminated. South Asian countries can then launch talks for a new South Asian constitution and parliament.

4) In another 5 years, the constitution will be ready. A South Asian parliament, with a new South Asian currency will be launched. National govts will continue to have executive power, but legislation shall be done by the South Asian parliament. A joint military command may be created as an umbrella for the Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi armies. In due course, even the judicial systems could be placed under an umbrella South Asian court system.

Allowing Kashmir to secede is a short-term investment in the supra-national South Asian Union.

Re: # 299

Dear mohar11:

I do understand your pain.

Respectfully,

`` Pakiland is still supporting, arming and funding the terrorist groups. If they cut back on providing covering fire for infiltration, it`s more because the jihad strategy was hurting them(the bomb attacks on mushy) than the goodness in their hearts and a genuine aversion to terrorism,

for the Dictator and Paki Junta, jihadis are like a bargaining chip and a definitive bet to keep their occupation of Pakistan going.

#313 by godot on October 30, 2005 9:53am PT

Here`s my point of view:

- Pakiland is still supporting, arming and funding the terrorist groups. If they cut back on providing covering fire for infiltration, it`s more because the jihad strategy was hurting them(the bomb attacks on mushy) than the goodness in their hearts and a genuine aversion to terrorism,

- Anyone who thinks the paki establishment and the military - and indeed most pakis - don`t support the kind of terrorists attacks we saw yesterday is living in lala land..

- All this peace process thing is BS and nothing is going to come out of it. 50+ dead in Delhi only strengthens the resolve of the Indian state and the Indian people to do whatever it takes to kill the terrorists...

So how long before hindvi calls me a fascists for posting this?

Christian girls beheaded in grisly Indonesian attack

Three teenage Christian girls were beheaded and a fourth was seriously wounded in a savage attack on Saturday by unidentified assailants in the Indonesian province of Central Sulawesi.

The girls were among a group of students from a private Christian high school who were ambushed while walking through a cocoa plantation in Poso Kota subdistrict on their way to class, police Major Riky Naldo said.

The area is close to the provincial capital of Poso, about 1000 kilometres northeast of Jakarta.

Naldo said the heads of the three dead victims were found several kilometres from their bodies.

Christian leaders have repeatedly accused the authorities in Jakarta of not doing enough to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.

The Christian-Muslim conflict in Sulawesi was an extension of a wider sectarian war in the nearby Maluku archipelago in which up to 9000 perished between 1999 and 2002.

The Maluku conflict intensified soon after it began with the arrival of volunteers belonging to Laskar Jihad, a newly created militia from Indonesia`s main island of Java that was supported by hardline elements of the security forces.

Here’s my point of view on the bomb blast in Dehli...

The background leading to the blast in Delhi

- The Indian Intelligence may have tipped the Indian establishment that the earthquake in Pakistan has weakened Pakistani nuclear facilities

- That information led Indian Hawks to see a window of opportunity to close in on Pakistan

- The Indian Hawks started to make noise about Pakistan’s “nuclear proliferation” to find an excuse to move in to Pakistan. Their strategy, just like the Kashmir Jehadi Group`s, towards Pakistan is hate-driven and not that of a vision of peaceful and harmonious co-existence.

- The Kashmiri Jehadi Group despises both Pakistan and India. They hate the peace process both countries have started. They want India and Pakistan to get into a war...possibly a nuclear one. They don’t give a hoot about human loss and suffering. In their hate, all they care about is annihilation.

- The Kashmiri Jehadi Group was disheartened to see that recent Indian noise about Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation has died down and the peace process has not derailed.

- Hence, the bomb blast by the Kashmiri Jehadi Group in Delhi. They want India to attack Pakistan so that Pakistan, as the only resort, turns to nuclear weapons as defense.

- The winners: foaming-at-the-mouth and full-of-hate Indian Hawks and the Kashmir Jehadi Group.

- The losers: Sane people on both sides of the border, and in case of war, countless innocent people.

Pakistan’s Strategy

Distance itself from those who committed the crime in Delhi, ensure the world Pakistan has nothing to do with it, expedite the peace process with India.

hamidm:

India wouldn`t hurt if Manipur leaves and it would, in my opinion, be stronger if it gets out of Kashmir.

But leaving aside Kashmir, it is more than a case of soccer fan mentality, which certainly is true. For India, or any other country, it is a question of where will it end once the process of disintegration starts? A federation like India, made up as it is of several heterogeneous groups with little in common except for a real cum mythical civilisational bond, once the status quo is disturbed, India could end up in a perpetual process of disintegration where one or more disaffected groups are always seeking separate homelands. Even with India`s track record of steadfast refusal to negotiate its territorial integrity, these movements have continued to exist, imagine how many more such movements it will have to contend with if one of them actually succeeds?

And this is more than India. I believe that we already have too many states in this world (dont ask me on what criteria?). Instead of new states, what the world needs, in my opinion, is a supra-nationalist organization which can protect human rights of everyone in this world, with such rights enforceable by an international agency with real teeth.

Well the heat is just getting out of the Kashmir kitchen and beginning to crackle the Indian bedrooms as well. But then again, some people would still like to delude themselves that India can kill 90,000 Kashmiris and still dictate terms to them.

Inquilab group claims responsibility for blasts

Re: # 303

dost-mittar,

..... so what about manipur ?...... to an outsider it seems to be a distinct society with very little in common with the rest of india - a lot more distinct than, let`s say, slavic slovenia as compared to slavic serbia ...........do its people have a right to self-detemination if they so desire ?...... and if the 2 million or so people did secede, how would it hurt india (other than a bruised ego) ?............. my feeling is that nations are like soccer fans - they have this sick desire to identify with something ``bigger`` and ``stronger`` than what they can individually accomplish ....... and their megalomaniac leaders exploit this human weakness to satisfy their insatiable lust for power .............

re: #278 Ranger

Oye bhagvan ke mootar, you get lost yourself. Just because I posted my views in a civilized but candid manner, does not mean I can`t address you in your own mother language. The choice is yours to make, khotey ki aulad!

hindvi:

I have never seen any data on whether there is greater poverty among Muslims than Hindus. My hunch is that the differences may not be significant. I think that there is a definite different in levels of literacy and representation in police, army, civil service and even private employment, but not in incomes. Muslims in places like UP have been in occupations and crafts which have been in high demand both internally and in export markets. In addition to literacy, I suspect that they also may lack entrepreneurial skills; thus a successful craftsman does not think of going in for business for himself by making maximum use of the banks and government grants and subsidies but lets a Hindu/Sikh/Jain/Parsee make all the profits. Do you have any info. to share in this respect?