Bye Bye NAM, Hello Realpolitik!

Re: # 351

raw,

........ i agree with you that the army has raped and pillaged pakistan and continues to do so .......... i also agree that kashmir needs to be put on the back burner as an ``open issue``........... so what the heck are we arguing about ? .........

Re: # 355

Hamidm Sahib:

``........ i agree with you that the army has raped and pillaged pakistan and continues to do so .......... ``

How Pakistanis treat their Army and how their Army treats Pakistan and Pakistani is Pakistani`s business.

and,

``i also agree that kashmir needs to be put on the back burner as an ``open issue``........... so what the heck are we arguing about ? ......... ``

I agree with you too, and also wonder what is the issue then? Other than may be people like to hear their own voices, and read their own words.

Anil

Re: # 356

anil,

............ the difference might be that i would like to see the kashmir issue kept ``open`` like macao, hong kong, gibraltar, palestine, cyprus, bosnia, kosovo or taiwan whereas a lot of indians would like to consider it ``closed``.......... who knows how all these issues are eventually going to be settled, but there is no point in shedding innocent blood in vain ....... sometimes these things have to run their course ............ for example, i don`t think anyone doubts that eventually taiwan will merge into china, but the chinese are not pushing the issue because they know that they don`t have the right cards (yet) .........the world has accepted their position in principle and it is a matter of time before they get what they want ............... in the mean time they are more than happy with the status quo and taiwanese businesss men are also happy as they continue to invest billions of dollars in the mainland ........ unfortunately desis are ... well ... different ............also, the chinese don`t have to contend with religious animosity and a thousand years of bad blood ............

Re: # 358

Hamidm Sahib:

I fully understood what ``open`` means. It should be left like Turkish and Greek Cypriot issue. Now Greek, Cypress already in EU, and Turkey would soon be in EU. This experience could guide South Asia`s yuong generation. They might find a peaceful solution within the larger framework of economic block, with free movement of people, profits and capital. I have visited the place where Switzerland, Germany and France meet. This area has very interesting history. In fact Basel, Switzerland`s airport is right at the border, and customs is on the French side, and entrance is on the Swiss side. They had told me it was possible after a historic agreement between France and Switzerland in 60`s. Now if you drive thru this beautiful part of Europe you would not even feel that they are two separate countries, or nation-states.

Anil

delhiwala:

On Kashmir, India has to find realistic solutions. The only way to win Kashmiri Muslims` hearts is to win the hearts of Indian Muslims, for which it should, at minimum, provide them with a sense of security of life and property. If they cannot win their hearts and they are unwilling to make a demographic change a la POK or Tibet, what is the point of keeping a hostile state within the union?

I think India is already moving in the direction of giving more power to the states. Indeed, the constitution does give states jurisdiction in areas directly affecting the welfare of the people, the problem is that the Central government, especially, under Indira Gandhi did not respect state rights. Fortunatley, this is now changing as regional parties and politicians have become more powerful even at the centre.

HP:

Thanks for the response. You could come back and substantiate your allegations, but you didn`t. I dont mind being called an RSS pracharak but I would like to know the basis on which you make such statements. Labelling people is no substitute for evidence. Otherwise, you are no different from those who call me Paki/Muslim asslickers for agreeing with some Pakistani chowkies or their viewpoints.

Ahmadzai:
Please let me know if you are visiting Ottawa.

#343 by dost-mittar

“I too am frustrated with HP and hindvi calling names and making accusations and, when responded to, vanishing into thin air.”

If your comments are worth a response, they will be responded and if your comments are like this:

“as soon as you start taking any pride in Pre-Islamic India, you enter that list, regardless of how much you hate saffron brigade.” Dost Mitter

You surely won’t see any response because you are making up stuff and writing something totally out of context. So save some breath and write something that makes sense and you will get a response.

...And I always don`t have time to respond to ridiculeous posts anyway.

#337 by HisExcellency on October 30, 2005 8:40pm PT


1. SJB`s theory is based on counterfactual analyses, instead of established cause-effect analyses. Instead of starting with facts and then concluding an effect from these causes,


Kinda like you concluding Kashmir is a millstone around India`s neck?

If anything, India has surpassed Pakistan during the 15 years of the Kashmir insurgency. ACts of terrorism have done nothing to deter Indias spectacular success story in IT...did you read about Cisco`s recent investment in India? They`ll have more R&D engineers in India than in the US. Even Huawei, the company tied to the chinese military, gets more work done in Indian than in Pakistan..

OTOH, Pakiland is stuck on 40 million $/yr...

Is it any surprise that there is no paki corporate success story like Infosys/Wipro/Reliance etc?

#326 by hamidm2 on October 30, 2005 3:13pm PT


it is myth that the army alone is the only party in pakistan that wants to keep the kashmir issue alive and has managed to do it all by itself


The myth, among pakis mostly but a few indian bleeding hearts too, is that it`s only some sections of the paki junta that supports terrorism as a tactic...

The fact is that a wide majority of pakis support the use of Islamic terrorism...

Netizen#342:

I too am frustrated with HP and hindvi calling names and making accusations and, when responded to, vanishing into thin air. It has happened frequently enough that I am beginning to think that it is not a coincidence.

Re: # 343 DM and Net

Like I said - Hindvi Mian has already crossed over to the dark side..... I won`t be surprised if he turns out to be the first suicide bomber of Indian extraction.....

Even otherwise, he is symptomatic of why Muslims in India have remained backward, poor, and to some extent, paranoid..... As an educated member of the muslim community, he should be out there exhorting the community to come of their self-imposed ghetto-mentality - but instead this guy has been baying at the moon.... shouting the same old boogeyman bullsh!t....

This guy is a lost case......

#279 by hindvi

[there are many successful muslims in India, but they are those who atleast had some base i.e. were from the middle or upper middle classes, the vast bulk continues to lead a most miserable existence as rickshaw pullers or workers.]

So please tell us what base did Dr. Abdul Kalam have. AFAIK, Kalam`s dad was a fisherman. What base did Irfan Pathan and Zaheer Khan have? Pathan`s dad is a Maulvi at a mosque in Ahmedabad (?) and Zaheer Khan too is from a not-too-well off family.

Are any of the examples I gave above from the middle class?

Re: # 340

hindvi miya will not be seen for some time now. his accusations that rss/bjp were involved has gone terribly wrong. it will be hard for him to justify it now, as muslims never do such things. they are only ``wrongfully`` implicated by the zionists/RAW/modi.

re: arjun #321

5. SJB`s analyses ignore the most likely reasons for low FDI in Pakistan...

a) Political instability because of PPP-PML confrontation & frequent dismissals of government
b) Rampant corruption and lack of transparency in privatization process
c) Ailing banking sector due to loan defaults and writeoffs
d) Lack of proper arbitration framework for disputes

Because of factor (c), domestic investors were unable to borrow money and invest. Foreign investors usually take their cue from domestic investors. This led to a chicken-and-egg problem.

Despite this, FDI poured into Pakistan`s energy sector in 1994/95. But this process was marred by political corruption, and lack of transparency. Independent power producers (IPPs) paid kickbacks to Nawaz Sharif in order to win contracts... then Nawaz was replaced with Benazir... they had to pay kickbacks again... Then BB left and Nawaz came back and demanded more kickbacks... Nawaz threatened to cancel contracts... IPPs couldn`t arbitrate the case through courts so some decided to pack up and leave.

re: #321 by arjun_m

3. Foreign investors could not have shyed away for security concerns, simply because they didn`t know about these concerns... that is, until the 1998 nuclear tests. Media in US and UK was too engrossed with Iraq, breakup of USSR, ASEAN and NAFTA to worry about the Kashmir LIC thousands of miles away. The media only took notice of Kashmir when the nuclear genie was let out of the bottle.

4. SJB argues that Pakistani economy suffered because of high military spending. This is a rash conclusion. Firstly, military spending decreased from 1980s levels during the 90s. Secondly, a country like Pakistan can develop defense industry as a source of exports. This is exactly what Pakistan gained. Now Pakistan is selling trainer jets to Oman, short-range missiles to UAE... Far from being a drain on national resources, the defense industry is gradually becoming a revenue generator for Pakistan.

re: #321 by arjun_m

Most analyses by Shahid Burki are brilliant; alas this is not one of them. I had attacked this theory in an article that was published by Dawn newspaper a few years ago. I will just summarize my counterargument briefly here:

1. SJB`s theory is based on counterfactual analyses, instead of established cause-effect analyses. Instead of starting with facts and then concluding an effect from these causes, he is starting with an effect and then selectively retrofitting causes to describe that effect. In English, we call these conspiracy theories.

2. SJB`s inferences are weak. Risk of war can certainly jeopardise foreign direct investment (FDI). But the Kashmir Jihad was a low intensity conflict (LIC) that remained well below the threshold of war until Kargil (1999). There are no convincing studies/data to support a causal-relationship between LIC and low FDI.

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