Bye Bye NAM, Hello Realpolitik!

Layman, nicely elucidated.
With respect to kashmir, article 340 renders it different. There is no restriction on the citizens of the union becoming a resident of any part of the union (one of our basic rights)except for tribal areas AND kashmir. This may have been a moral high ground to take. However, it also has kept kashmir separate in a very real sense.

layman:

Thanks for the important distinction between Union and Federation that I had overlooked. But India still is a federal structure with defined powers for states and the Centre.

#312 dost-mittar:
Correction - India is not a federation of states, but a UNION of states. There is nothing sacrosanct about the states - they are just administrative groupings of territory - and can be chopped and changed as per people`s needs, as has happened since Independence. We started out with Presidencies, then had linguistic states formed, and every few years a new state is being created from existing states - remember Jharkhand, Chattisgarh, Uttaranchal in the last decade alone? Whereas a federation implies pre-existing states getting together, as in the US or from some perspectives the EU.

The North Eastern states including Manipur were formed by splitting them from Assam.

On top of this, India has been creating autonomous areas that have more freedom from their state, such as the Darjeeling area governed by the Darjeeling Autonomous Council in West Bengal.

India is a Union of states (and union territories!), there is no right of ``self-determination`` when it comes to secede. Unlike the US federation, where states have their own constitution and the right to secede (though we all know how well this right was respected in the US Civil War).

In a nation of a billion+ people, and with the extent of diversity that India has, there will always be a million or two (or more!) who will want to secede at any point of time. There will always be a state, or part of a state (remember even in J&K, the problem is only in the K valley not the rest of the state) that wants to secede. If at all India is to survive as a nation, there can be no secession be it of little Manipur or large Maharashtra. The only way forward is to ensure that all Indians have equal rights, full freedom of culture, religion, language etc, and equally share in economic and social development. Most secession movements as well as naxal movements in India can be traced to a failure of one of the above.

Re: # 367
You forgot the historical aspect of this equation.

US was founded by anglo-saxons, and all the confedracies were similar in their makeup.
they had ideological differences over adminsitrationa and Religion etc.

India in 1947 was made up of principalities not Unions.

That is why Pakistan seperated from India.
That is why Hindus wants to recognise Sikhs and Jains as part of Hindu religion.

Re: # 367

good post

hamidm:
``so what the heck are we arguing about ? .........``

not anymore. i thought you were opposed to using backburners. :-)

Hamid
//.....kashmir needs to be put on the back burner ....//

With due respect hamid mian - you can put kashmir on the back burner ....or up your back-side - we really don`t care..... just stop sending jihadis this way - and we will all live happily ever after :)

Well lookie here... India should refuse permission for the helicopters to fly close to the no fly zone near the LoC(hey..they might discover the super-duper IFF frequency)..

Pakistan Quake Helicopters May Be Grounded Because of No Funds

Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The United Nations may have to ground helicopters ferrying supplies to hundreds of thousands of survivors of the Pakistan earthquake still stuck in remote valleys because of a lack of funds, an official said.

Flights may be ended within two weeks, just as the Himalayan winter sets in, World Food Program Regional Director for the Middle East, Central Asia and Eastern Europe Amir Abdulla said, according to a statement carried on the UN News Service.

Maybe if you used some of the money you finance the LeT with....

Some Victims Untreated Three Weeks After Quake
By DAVID ROHDE

PATTIKA, Pakistan, Oct. 28 - On Thursday, Dr. Ali Shehada took a short hike outside this mountain town to explore the disturbing reports from his patients: Nearly three weeks after an earthquake devastated northern Pakistan, injured women still lay in nearby villages with untreated wounds.

#359 by Romair on October 31, 2005 9:00pm PT


Kashmir needs to be de-militarized,


Or what? You`ll continue to spend a disproportionate amount on your military...money that will be used not to ``liberate`` Kashmir but to enslave the paki junta?


So what is the issue in this? Certain people are unwillilng to de-militarize Kashmir. It has the most soldiers per sq. ft. in the world, by a gigantic margin.


The real issue is the inability of your army to do anything about it...


Get the soldiers out, so the locals can sleep peacefully.


The locals are free to leave for a place where they can sleep peacefully..

Romair:
``Kashmir needs to be de-militarized, from all sides and left to itself, for a decade, or more. People on both sides of the LOC should be allowed to meet as and when they want, since they are brothers and sisters. And no side should make any ridiculous statement about the place, i.e. it belongs to India or belongs to Pakistan, or we will accept this solution, but not that solution.............``

I do not think that this is what Anil, hamidm and I meant. You are suggesting a course of action rather than an open issue. What they and I are saying is that let the status quo remain and let people hold on to their position - namely India maintaining that Pakistan is in illegal position in Azad Kashmir and North while Pakistan maintaining that Indian occupation of its Kashmir is illegal and try to live like normal neighbours otherwise, just as Taiwanese and Chinese or doing or Greeks and Cypriots are doing. The only change it would require is for all civilian non-violence sponsored by one country against the other to end. If this leads an end to internal insurgency in Indian Kashmir, it would automatically lead to the end of massive military presence there.

In other words, when someone says that we should not do this or than until the Kashmir issue is resolved, the obvious answer would ``What has Kashmir got to do with it?``

Anil #356: ``agree with you too, and also wonder what is the issue then?``

Kashmir needs to be de-militarized, from all sides and left to itself, for a decade, or more. People on both sides of the LOC should be allowed to meet as and when they want, since they are brothers and sisters. And no side should make any ridiculous statement about the place, i.e. it belongs to India or belongs to Pakistan, or we will accept this solution, but not that solution.............

So what is the issue in this? Certain people are unwillilng to de-militarize Kashmir. It has the most soldiers per sq. ft. in the world, by a gigantic margin. And too many people make too many statements about the place, due to domestic poltical pressures, which are not needed at the moment, i.e. No boundary changes, or Yes boundary changes etc.

So if every side could keep its mouth shut on Kahsmir for a while. Get the soldiers out, so the locals can sleep peacefully. And leave the place alone, and let people move openly, it will end up on the backburner, automatically, in a nature manner. If people want to put it on the backburner to close the issue, once and forever, through military force, then I am not sure if the term backburner is correct.........

Re: # 359

Hi Romair:

Let Musharaff and Man Mohan Singh try for a solution. If nothing comes out, then this generation should leave it ``open`` without any condition, and march forward toward a greater economic block and a free market of 1.7 billion people. This will make it the world`s largest free market, and economic union. Let the rest be done by your kids generation, who would have been immersed in the economic free market for one-generation. They might find a solution as I said earlier over a cup of coffee in Srinagar and Muzzafarabad. If the economic free market is allowed to flourish for one generation, without any conflicts, I am certain, the solution will be found by those running Muzzafrabad and Srinagar, and not by those running Delhi or Islamabad.

You have to prepared to let it go, Romair. There is nothing wrong in acknowledging that mine and even your generation will not be able to find a solution, if Musharaff and Man Mohan Singh fail. Since neither war nor terrorism will be tolerated and peaceful solution is deadlocked. May be two Kashmiris first among themselves and later they should go to Islamabad and Delhi and demand acceptance of the solution. For this approach neither need Paksitani and Indian government. India, I know Indian Kashmiri can go on public campaign to win over rather than attack.

Anil



Anil

#346 by mohar11 on October 31, 2005 7:53am PT


Even otherwise, he is symptomatic of why Muslims in India have remained backward, poor, and to some extent, paranoid


So he`s on his way to becoming a brit-paki(or a US-Paki for that matter...they`re poorer, less educated and more likely to be jihadis too)...

re:#335 by Netizen
NATO`s presence will serve some useful purpose.
1. Keeping a close watch on Pak`s jehadi activities. Remember, Pak is a ground for global jehad and not just Kashmir based jehad.
2. Keeping a close watch on China`s activities. Nobody here or anyother forum has mentioned one important piece of info. The Karakoram Highways built by China connecting its land to POK lies in ruins following the Quake. China hoped to be able to connect to Pak and thence to the Independent Caucases.
3. Nuclear facilities (underground ) bulit in the Quake hit areas seem to have survived but with some damage. Again, NATO will be close by to keep a watch.
NATO does not care about India but India`s strategic equation with US has changed. Otherwise India would have made a lot of noise. One heard only some shrill noise from I.K.Gujral. The guy actually quoted Saddam Hussein as telling him (when India was cosying upto Iraq) that India was invaded by Britain because of cotton and Iraq was being invaded by US due to Oil. I am sure that carries a lot of conviction !!
Sridhar

Pakistan Army is also the biggest, most-organized feudal institution sititng on all the prime-estate locations within the major cities not to mention Tamgha-e-Imtiaz Military and land-holdings in the lower Punjab. Pakistan Army also works with feudal class to further mutual agendas.

Musharraf was ready to make a deal with Makhdoom Amin Fahim(well-known feudal and spiritual leader from Sindh) in last sham-elections as a prime minister when the latter relent cos of Benazir. Right now, Shujaat Hussain of Gujrat, one of the success stories of crony corruption in Pakistan is Pak. Army`s right hand man. Then, on chowk we have to put up with self-styled patriots like Romair and company.

hamidm:
my point is very simple: Pakistan`s last legitimate position on Kashmir was in Lahore declaration 1999. You can see there were no riots and beatings happened when Nawaz Sharif conceded that Kashmir was not the pre-condition to a better relations to India and Pakistan (by acknowledging Kashmir as One of many issues on the table). And this was pre-9./11 and pre-moderately enlightened psuedo-secular fever - we are talking about.

What Musharraf and Army junta did as a result in 1999 is for all to see. Please, dont use pakistani peoples as an excuse for your own ignorance of reality.

By the way, Army is the biggest beneficiary of the whole India-Islam-in-danger enterprise.

Re: # 351

raw,

........ i agree with you that the army has raped and pillaged pakistan and continues to do so .......... i also agree that kashmir needs to be put on the back burner as an ``open issue``........... so what the heck are we arguing about ? .........

Re: # 355

Hamidm Sahib:

``........ i agree with you that the army has raped and pillaged pakistan and continues to do so .......... ``

How Pakistanis treat their Army and how their Army treats Pakistan and Pakistani is Pakistani`s business.

and,

``i also agree that kashmir needs to be put on the back burner as an ``open issue``........... so what the heck are we arguing about ? ......... ``

I agree with you too, and also wonder what is the issue then? Other than may be people like to hear their own voices, and read their own words.

Anil

Re: # 356

anil,

............ the difference might be that i would like to see the kashmir issue kept ``open`` like macao, hong kong, gibraltar, palestine, cyprus, bosnia, kosovo or taiwan whereas a lot of indians would like to consider it ``closed``.......... who knows how all these issues are eventually going to be settled, but there is no point in shedding innocent blood in vain ....... sometimes these things have to run their course ............ for example, i don`t think anyone doubts that eventually taiwan will merge into china, but the chinese are not pushing the issue because they know that they don`t have the right cards (yet) .........the world has accepted their position in principle and it is a matter of time before they get what they want ............... in the mean time they are more than happy with the status quo and taiwanese businesss men are also happy as they continue to invest billions of dollars in the mainland ........ unfortunately desis are ... well ... different ............also, the chinese don`t have to contend with religious animosity and a thousand years of bad blood ............

Re: # 358

Hamidm Sahib:

I fully understood what ``open`` means. It should be left like Turkish and Greek Cypriot issue. Now Greek, Cypress already in EU, and Turkey would soon be in EU. This experience could guide South Asia`s yuong generation. They might find a peaceful solution within the larger framework of economic block, with free movement of people, profits and capital. I have visited the place where Switzerland, Germany and France meet. This area has very interesting history. In fact Basel, Switzerland`s airport is right at the border, and customs is on the French side, and entrance is on the Swiss side. They had told me it was possible after a historic agreement between France and Switzerland in 60`s. Now if you drive thru this beautiful part of Europe you would not even feel that they are two separate countries, or nation-states.

Anil

delhiwala:

On Kashmir, India has to find realistic solutions. The only way to win Kashmiri Muslims` hearts is to win the hearts of Indian Muslims, for which it should, at minimum, provide them with a sense of security of life and property. If they cannot win their hearts and they are unwilling to make a demographic change a la POK or Tibet, what is the point of keeping a hostile state within the union?

I think India is already moving in the direction of giving more power to the states. Indeed, the constitution does give states jurisdiction in areas directly affecting the welfare of the people, the problem is that the Central government, especially, under Indira Gandhi did not respect state rights. Fortunatley, this is now changing as regional parties and politicians have become more powerful even at the centre.

HP:

Thanks for the response. You could come back and substantiate your allegations, but you didn`t. I dont mind being called an RSS pracharak but I would like to know the basis on which you make such statements. Labelling people is no substitute for evidence. Otherwise, you are no different from those who call me Paki/Muslim asslickers for agreeing with some Pakistani chowkies or their viewpoints.

Ahmadzai:
Please let me know if you are visiting Ottawa.

#343 by dost-mittar

“I too am frustrated with HP and hindvi calling names and making accusations and, when responded to, vanishing into thin air.”

If your comments are worth a response, they will be responded and if your comments are like this:

“as soon as you start taking any pride in Pre-Islamic India, you enter that list, regardless of how much you hate saffron brigade.” Dost Mitter

You surely won’t see any response because you are making up stuff and writing something totally out of context. So save some breath and write something that makes sense and you will get a response.

...And I always don`t have time to respond to ridiculeous posts anyway.

#337 by HisExcellency on October 30, 2005 8:40pm PT


1. SJB`s theory is based on counterfactual analyses, instead of established cause-effect analyses. Instead of starting with facts and then concluding an effect from these causes,


Kinda like you concluding Kashmir is a millstone around India`s neck?

If anything, India has surpassed Pakistan during the 15 years of the Kashmir insurgency. ACts of terrorism have done nothing to deter Indias spectacular success story in IT...did you read about Cisco`s recent investment in India? They`ll have more R&D engineers in India than in the US. Even Huawei, the company tied to the chinese military, gets more work done in Indian than in Pakistan..

OTOH, Pakiland is stuck on 40 million $/yr...

Is it any surprise that there is no paki corporate success story like Infosys/Wipro/Reliance etc?

#326 by hamidm2 on October 30, 2005 3:13pm PT


it is myth that the army alone is the only party in pakistan that wants to keep the kashmir issue alive and has managed to do it all by itself


The myth, among pakis mostly but a few indian bleeding hearts too, is that it`s only some sections of the paki junta that supports terrorism as a tactic...

The fact is that a wide majority of pakis support the use of Islamic terrorism...

Netizen#342:

I too am frustrated with HP and hindvi calling names and making accusations and, when responded to, vanishing into thin air. It has happened frequently enough that I am beginning to think that it is not a coincidence.

Re: # 343 DM and Net

Like I said - Hindvi Mian has already crossed over to the dark side..... I won`t be surprised if he turns out to be the first suicide bomber of Indian extraction.....

Even otherwise, he is symptomatic of why Muslims in India have remained backward, poor, and to some extent, paranoid..... As an educated member of the muslim community, he should be out there exhorting the community to come of their self-imposed ghetto-mentality - but instead this guy has been baying at the moon.... shouting the same old boogeyman bullsh!t....

This guy is a lost case......

#279 by hindvi

[there are many successful muslims in India, but they are those who atleast had some base i.e. were from the middle or upper middle classes, the vast bulk continues to lead a most miserable existence as rickshaw pullers or workers.]

So please tell us what base did Dr. Abdul Kalam have. AFAIK, Kalam`s dad was a fisherman. What base did Irfan Pathan and Zaheer Khan have? Pathan`s dad is a Maulvi at a mosque in Ahmedabad (?) and Zaheer Khan too is from a not-too-well off family.

Are any of the examples I gave above from the middle class?

Re: # 340

hindvi miya will not be seen for some time now. his accusations that rss/bjp were involved has gone terribly wrong. it will be hard for him to justify it now, as muslims never do such things. they are only ``wrongfully`` implicated by the zionists/RAW/modi.

re: arjun #321

5. SJB`s analyses ignore the most likely reasons for low FDI in Pakistan...

a) Political instability because of PPP-PML confrontation & frequent dismissals of government
b) Rampant corruption and lack of transparency in privatization process
c) Ailing banking sector due to loan defaults and writeoffs
d) Lack of proper arbitration framework for disputes

Because of factor (c), domestic investors were unable to borrow money and invest. Foreign investors usually take their cue from domestic investors. This led to a chicken-and-egg problem.

Despite this, FDI poured into Pakistan`s energy sector in 1994/95. But this process was marred by political corruption, and lack of transparency. Independent power producers (IPPs) paid kickbacks to Nawaz Sharif in order to win contracts... then Nawaz was replaced with Benazir... they had to pay kickbacks again... Then BB left and Nawaz came back and demanded more kickbacks... Nawaz threatened to cancel contracts... IPPs couldn`t arbitrate the case through courts so some decided to pack up and leave.

re: #321 by arjun_m

3. Foreign investors could not have shyed away for security concerns, simply because they didn`t know about these concerns... that is, until the 1998 nuclear tests. Media in US and UK was too engrossed with Iraq, breakup of USSR, ASEAN and NAFTA to worry about the Kashmir LIC thousands of miles away. The media only took notice of Kashmir when the nuclear genie was let out of the bottle.

4. SJB argues that Pakistani economy suffered because of high military spending. This is a rash conclusion. Firstly, military spending decreased from 1980s levels during the 90s. Secondly, a country like Pakistan can develop defense industry as a source of exports. This is exactly what Pakistan gained. Now Pakistan is selling trainer jets to Oman, short-range missiles to UAE... Far from being a drain on national resources, the defense industry is gradually becoming a revenue generator for Pakistan.

re: #321 by arjun_m

Most analyses by Shahid Burki are brilliant; alas this is not one of them. I had attacked this theory in an article that was published by Dawn newspaper a few years ago. I will just summarize my counterargument briefly here:

1. SJB`s theory is based on counterfactual analyses, instead of established cause-effect analyses. Instead of starting with facts and then concluding an effect from these causes, he is starting with an effect and then selectively retrofitting causes to describe that effect. In English, we call these conspiracy theories.

2. SJB`s inferences are weak. Risk of war can certainly jeopardise foreign direct investment (FDI). But the Kashmir Jihad was a low intensity conflict (LIC) that remained well below the threshold of war until Kargil (1999). There are no convincing studies/data to support a causal-relationship between LIC and low FDI.

(continued)

Dost-Mittar:

I just came back from a trip to the USA and wanted to post a few posts to this board, but I think now it is too late. The board has moved in another direction.

As regards your question where I was, I was transferred to Australia, USA and now to Canada (I recall that you live here also). I expect to be here for 6-24 months depending on when my employer decides to send me back to the greener pastures of the USA or not (Admittedly, I am enjoying Canada from travel point of view, but not from professional point of view. It is too laid back).

I hope you and your wife still remember your trip to Pakistan. I don`t recall whether you were able to go as far north as the calamity struck Kohistan or not.

re:#321 by arjun_m
Do u think people who willingly blow themselves up for a cause would be deterred by the economics of jehad?
I am getting convinced that the only way might be to pay back in the same coin ie India should raise a people`s jehadi force, train them and infiltrate them into Pak in large numbers and cause mayheim. If they kill one, kill 100. Only a diamond cuts a diamond. This may be the only way left now.
As the hindi proverb goes ``laton key bhoot batoon sey nahin mantein``
Sridhar

re:#323 by Netizen
Pak has not dismantled jehadi apparatus after repeatedly being asked to do so by the world community. It is time somebody else does this. I am sure NATO forces are landing in POK for this purpose. Surely, they are not there to play poker.
Sridhar

Re: # 332

``I am sure NATO forces are landing in POK for this purpose. ``

i don`t think nato is interested in india-specfic action. may be china why should them care about india?

Ref hindvi #286

[Ranger
I am ashamed to say this but i found better treatment in the US and UK than I found in my native land, i wasnt judged by the sound of my name.]

You should be delighted that post 9-11 that is no longer the case. Now a name like Mohammad is a red flag AROUND the world!

Keep it up guys. We shall soon have you lowering your pants to check your religion.

Hindvi:

I just read a jihadi group took responsibility for the delhi balsts. what do you say now. Yesterday you were blaming some groups (read rss/bjp) for creating ``social turmoil``. you even went further saying that this time the culprits (read rss/bjp) will be hounded as ``modi is not an emperor`` (whatever it meant).

people like you (educated indian muslims) also have contributed immensely to the ghetto mentality of muslims in india. instead of asking the muslims to break from the mullahism (like imrana case, sharia laws as alternate to judicial systems) you support conspiracy theories (like moscow bombings, godhra burnings). anyway, how is promotion of urdu going to help an average muslim youth? is it going to be easy for it to get a job at WIPRO becausae of urdu fluency?

let me give you/your community one suggestion: in a madrassa, instead of teaching them what a tribal did in 7th century arabia teach them what newton/galileo did. may be that would help them to think big in future.

arjun_M:
expect hamidm and romair to ignore your post #321

Re: # 322

raw-dust,

............ what is your point ? ...... it is myth that the army alone is the only party in pakistan that wants to keep the kashmir issue alive and has managed to do it all by itself ...............you give the army too much credit - after all they are drawn from the same confused gene pool ! ............... like the horrible hindoos on the wrong side of the border, a significant majority of pakistanis are also quite passionate about the issue ....... when it comes to raw and putrid nationalism, they are no different from the serbs, the germans, the indians or the americans - it is a disgusting but primeval instinct ...............try saying that pakistan should give up on kashmir in a public place in pakistan - you will get a sound beating and sent off to bed without any pudding !............... please note that i am not making any value judgements about whether it is right or wrong - just stating the facts .........

Re: # 326

hamidm:

``try saying that pakistan should give up on kashmir in a public place in pakistan - you will get a sound beating and sent off to bed without any pudding !.``

pak doesn`t have a leader who will ask the people to accept the reality. atleast the army has some gun/muscle power to make a stand and abide by it, people will soon follow. I am very sure one would get the same beating treatment if osama is bad-mouthed but that didn`t keep the military from abondoning him in favor of u.s.

Re: # 328

..... i think you have a warped view of pakistan like most indians .......... the only person you cannot bad mouth in pakistan is shahrukh khan and the the prophet and his camel club buddies - other than that, every one seems to be fair game, including musharraf ...........

Re: # 329

o.k. osama is not as popular in pak today as he was in 2001, except in pashtunistan.

what do you say if pak military enforces the deal on its people.

#318 by HisExcellency on October 30, 2005 10:47am PT


Kashmir are millstones around India`s neck.


mmmkay...if you say so...



High cost of the conflict

According to a study carried out by Ijaz Nabi and his associates at the World Bank, private investment in India and Pakistan was about the same in 1982-1991. However in 1992-2001, private investment in Pakistan was six percentage points lower than in India. A part of this gap — say about 75 per cent — can be attributed to the deterioration of the investment climate in Pakistan caused by the rise of Islamic militancy in the country which in turn was associated with the Kashmir problem.

These factors lowered investment rates in Pakistan by 4.5 percentage points compared to that in India. This implies loss in growth of at least one percentage point of GDP. Stable relations with India would have brought economic and perhaps also economic stability to Pakistan. This would have produced better investment climate in the country and contributed to higher levels of domestic savings and investment. This would have also contributed to increasing the rate of GDP growth.

In sum a good case can be made that Pakistan, in particular, has paid a very heavy economic, social and political cost for continuing to keep the Kashmir case on the front burner. This is a good time to take a very hard look at the cost-benefit calculus of the position the country has adopted in the past over the dispute in Kashmir. The situation has begun to change largely because of the promise of peace between India and Pakistan. New investments have begun to flow into the country in particular from the Arab world; Pakistan’s own private sector has become active; the rate of economic growth has picked up perceptibly; the incidence of poverty has begun to decline; Pakistan now seems ready to join other fast growing Asian economies. It would be a pity if Kashmir is allowed to intervene once again in the form of a dispute that attracts extremist elements in both countries. They will try to derail the process on which India and Pakistan are currently engaged. Both Delhi and Islamabad must resist these attempts.

Funny how it`s gone from we`ll snatch Kashmir from those cowardly hindus to we`re ready to take Kashmir off your hands because it`s good for you...

Let`s face it..the Paki army needs the Kashmir issue to perpetuate it`s own rule on Kashmir...Without Kashmir, people may question the need for schools for petting zoos...and they might ask why Pakistan has no company to match Infosys/Wipro/Reliance(which, BTW, is providing internet service to Pakiland).....

re:#300 by hindvi
I do not want to take this topic off course. The muslim problem is a seperate topic in itself. May be you should write an article in Chowk. I would like to respond then.
Sridhar

re: #312 dost-mittar

++
India wouldn`t hurt if Manipur leaves and it would, in my opinion, be stronger if it gets out of Kashmir
++

Dost-mittarji, I couldn`t agree with you more. Manipur and Kashmir are millstones around India`s neck. Like Israel, India also needs a cost-benefit analysis of occupying these states. Kashmir is to India what Gaza is to Israel.

++
Instead of new states, what the world needs, in my opinion, is a supra-nationalist organization which can protect human rights of everyone in this world, with such rights enforceable by an international agency with real teeth
++

Nationalism is the greatest obstacle to the emergence of such a state. The EU is gradually evolving into a supra-nationalist organization. But 70 years ago, there was no possibility of Germans, French, Italians, British and Spaniards collaborating on a common parliament, common currency and common market.

To accomplish the same model in South Asia, you need to implement the following roadmap:

1) Grant autonomy to Kashmir and Manipur. This will remove the biggest impediments in functioning of SAARC and SAFMA. India`s relations with Pakistan will also improve considerably.

2) For 5-10 years, the Kashmiris and Manipuris will continue to feel bitter about India. A growing Indian economy will offer the balm to Indian people for loss of Kashmir & Manipur. During this period, SAFMA and SAARC will become much more effective. Military spending in South Asia will gradually decrease.

3) As bitterness of the past recedes and trade expands, the hard borders between India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will become soft. In due course, visa requirements can be eliminated. South Asian countries can then launch talks for a new South Asian constitution and parliament.

4) In another 5 years, the constitution will be ready. A South Asian parliament, with a new South Asian currency will be launched. National govts will continue to have executive power, but legislation shall be done by the South Asian parliament. A joint military command may be created as an umbrella for the Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi armies. In due course, even the judicial systems could be placed under an umbrella South Asian court system.

Allowing Kashmir to secede is a short-term investment in the supra-national South Asian Union.

Re: # 318
DM Sir,
In Overcrowded India Land is the prized commodity. Nobody in the world wants to give up any land. Wheather it is ``Ramu the Dhobi`` or ``Jumman the Taylee`` or any Government.

Pakistan wants Kashmir for its Land and Water resources and complete linkage with China, and also because India broke Pakistan in 1971.
In my opinion, India would have to do somthing like what USA/Canada has in terms of State/Federal structure. They deal with each other as if they were seperate countries.

Last week I was sitting with my Punjabi friends who were talking about Water resources and SYL Canal problem issue. General sentiment was that Water is the State subject in Indian ``Sanvidhan`` and Punjab considers water as its main natural resource.
The argument was, Punjab would share its water with other states if they shared their resources on same percentage(per diem basis), Bihar would have to share its Coal Income, Karnatak would have to share its Gold Mines and so on.

I think it is about time that India looked at its States with economic satisfaction as being the main priority. People in Kashmir should be allowed on their own to develop their own Tourism, people in Assam should be allowed to make their decision about Oil.

Just like the arrangement between Rich Alberta and Poor Nova Scotia or Ontario. Alberta gets to share its surplus wealth with other provinces.

Re: # 318

Allowing Kashmir to secede is a short-term investment in the supra-national South Asian Union.


Dude, do you want Sharia with it??. FYI, Indians no longer like being ``dhimmis``.. No thanks..

`` Pakiland is still supporting, arming and funding the terrorist groups. If they cut back on providing covering fire for infiltration, it`s more because the jihad strategy was hurting them(the bomb attacks on mushy) than the goodness in their hearts and a genuine aversion to terrorism,

for the Dictator and Paki Junta, jihadis are like a bargaining chip and a definitive bet to keep their occupation of Pakistan going.

#313 by godot on October 30, 2005 9:53am PT

Here`s my point of view:

- Pakiland is still supporting, arming and funding the terrorist groups. If they cut back on providing covering fire for infiltration, it`s more because the jihad strategy was hurting them(the bomb attacks on mushy) than the goodness in their hearts and a genuine aversion to terrorism,

- Anyone who thinks the paki establishment and the military - and indeed most pakis - don`t support the kind of terrorists attacks we saw yesterday is living in lala land..

- All this peace process thing is BS and nothing is going to come out of it. 50+ dead in Delhi only strengthens the resolve of the Indian state and the Indian people to do whatever it takes to kill the terrorists...

So how long before hindvi calls me a fascists for posting this?

Christian girls beheaded in grisly Indonesian attack

Three teenage Christian girls were beheaded and a fourth was seriously wounded in a savage attack on Saturday by unidentified assailants in the Indonesian province of Central Sulawesi.

The girls were among a group of students from a private Christian high school who were ambushed while walking through a cocoa plantation in Poso Kota subdistrict on their way to class, police Major Riky Naldo said.

The area is close to the provincial capital of Poso, about 1000 kilometres northeast of Jakarta.

Naldo said the heads of the three dead victims were found several kilometres from their bodies.

Christian leaders have repeatedly accused the authorities in Jakarta of not doing enough to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.

The Christian-Muslim conflict in Sulawesi was an extension of a wider sectarian war in the nearby Maluku archipelago in which up to 9000 perished between 1999 and 2002.

The Maluku conflict intensified soon after it began with the arrival of volunteers belonging to Laskar Jihad, a newly created militia from Indonesia`s main island of Java that was supported by hardline elements of the security forces.

Here’s my point of view on the bomb blast in Dehli...

The background leading to the blast in Delhi

- The Indian Intelligence may have tipped the Indian establishment that the earthquake in Pakistan has weakened Pakistani nuclear facilities

- That information led Indian Hawks to see a window of opportunity to close in on Pakistan

- The Indian Hawks started to make noise about Pakistan’s “nuclear proliferation” to find an excuse to move in to Pakistan. Their strategy, just like the Kashmir Jehadi Group`s, towards Pakistan is hate-driven and not that of a vision of peaceful and harmonious co-existence.

- The Kashmiri Jehadi Group despises both Pakistan and India. They hate the peace process both countries have started. They want India and Pakistan to get into a war...possibly a nuclear one. They don’t give a hoot about human loss and suffering. In their hate, all they care about is annihilation.

- The Kashmiri Jehadi Group was disheartened to see that recent Indian noise about Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation has died down and the peace process has not derailed.

- Hence, the bomb blast by the Kashmiri Jehadi Group in Delhi. They want India to attack Pakistan so that Pakistan, as the only resort, turns to nuclear weapons as defense.

- The winners: foaming-at-the-mouth and full-of-hate Indian Hawks and the Kashmir Jehadi Group.

- The losers: Sane people on both sides of the border, and in case of war, countless innocent people.

Pakistan’s Strategy

Distance itself from those who committed the crime in Delhi, ensure the world Pakistan has nothing to do with it, expedite the peace process with India.

hamidm:

India wouldn`t hurt if Manipur leaves and it would, in my opinion, be stronger if it gets out of Kashmir.

But leaving aside Kashmir, it is more than a case of soccer fan mentality, which certainly is true. For India, or any other country, it is a question of where will it end once the process of disintegration starts? A federation like India, made up as it is of several heterogeneous groups with little in common except for a real cum mythical civilisational bond, once the status quo is disturbed, India could end up in a perpetual process of disintegration where one or more disaffected groups are always seeking separate homelands. Even with India`s track record of steadfast refusal to negotiate its territorial integrity, these movements have continued to exist, imagine how many more such movements it will have to contend with if one of them actually succeeds?

And this is more than India. I believe that we already have too many states in this world (dont ask me on what criteria?). Instead of new states, what the world needs, in my opinion, is a supra-nationalist organization which can protect human rights of everyone in this world, with such rights enforceable by an international agency with real teeth.

Well the heat is just getting out of the Kashmir kitchen and beginning to crackle the Indian bedrooms as well. But then again, some people would still like to delude themselves that India can kill 90,000 Kashmiris and still dictate terms to them.

Inquilab group claims responsibility for blasts

re: #278 Ranger

Oye bhagvan ke mootar, you get lost yourself. Just because I posted my views in a civilized but candid manner, does not mean I can`t address you in your own mother language. The choice is yours to make, khotey ki aulad!

hindvi:

I have never seen any data on whether there is greater poverty among Muslims than Hindus. My hunch is that the differences may not be significant. I think that there is a definite different in levels of literacy and representation in police, army, civil service and even private employment, but not in incomes. Muslims in places like UP have been in occupations and crafts which have been in high demand both internally and in export markets. In addition to literacy, I suspect that they also may lack entrepreneurial skills; thus a successful craftsman does not think of going in for business for himself by making maximum use of the banks and government grants and subsidies but lets a Hindu/Sikh/Jain/Parsee make all the profits. Do you have any info. to share in this respect?

anyone who doesn`t recite the ``Islam is a religion of peace`` mantra is a fascist according to hindvi...

any mention of the worldwide war on terrorism being fought against Islamic radicals puts makes you a hitler...

OTOH, apologists for peeople flying planes into buildings have serious opinions that need to be considered....

hindvi:

`` But i do have a problem if Dost mittar mouths the sangh Parivar line and says Aryans did not come to india, or were the first settlers...``

I have not made any definitive statement of this type. I have said that I have seen claims and counter-claims in this regard. While I have seen substance on both sides, I have seen no knockout punch by either side. The only decisive point has been scored by the people against the Aryan Invasion Theory, as Romilla Thapar publicly admitted in The Hindu that there is no proof of invasion, it could be merely migration. To me, this is a historical and not a ideological issue. Unlike some other people, I do not reject an idea simply because it comes from a communist or a hindutva-vadi. Tilak proudly claimed that Aryans came from outside India and he was no secularist.

However, here is something that I have said which perhaps makes me a hindutvavadi in your and maybe other people`s eyes: It is that whether or not Aryans came from outside, they take no pride in any foreign origin. Even if they have come from outside, they have embraced Pre-Aryan (Dravidian?) civilization as their own and take full pride in it. The same is true of Kushans, Greeks, Huns and other Pre-Islamic people who came to the subcontinent.

rsridhar:

``Can u name even one muslim educational institution of similar nature?``

I believe Hamdard organization has such an english-medium school in Delhi.

I think that hindvi has a point. Our earlier so-called socialist governments should have placed emphasis on ensuring equality of education for everyone instead of spending state resources on nationalisation and other wasteful activities. That would have required additional resources for the socially disadvantaged groups.

But hindvi should also recognize the responsiblity of Muslims themselves. They are not an insignificant minority and have significant electoral muscle. As far as I am aware (and I hope I am wrong) they use all their muscle to obtain haj subsidies, preservation of sharia laws, more powers for wakfs, more funds and autonomy of Madrassas and, at best, for the advancement of Urdu.

harimou#258:

Could we hold our judgement until we found out who is responsible for these blasts? [No, I do not believe in the conspiracy theories that the RSS did it]

hamidm#256:

I will first address the general question before getting into specifics.

The way I see it, individual human rights are distinct from a people`s right to self-determination. The first right is the right of every human being by virtue of birth, the second is a people`s right which has to be justified. It is easy to have one without the other. For example, there are still people in India who would claim that there were fewer human rights violations in India during the British Rule than is the case now.

The second right, namely of self-determination, can only be established on a case-by-case basis. For example, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Asian republics were all part of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which, in theory, were indpendent republics even when they were part of the USSR with the right to secede. India, Algeria, S. Africa, etc., were all colonies of far away lands who got their rights to freedom only after Colonialism went out of favour.

You are right about larger countries not necessarily making for happy countries. But that is a different issue. Whether or not Kashmiris can claim to have a right to self-determination is a separate issue; in my opinion, Pakistan correctly calls it an unfinished business of partition.

Re: # 303

dost-mittar,

..... so what about manipur ?...... to an outsider it seems to be a distinct society with very little in common with the rest of india - a lot more distinct than, let`s say, slavic slovenia as compared to slavic serbia ...........do its people have a right to self-detemination if they so desire ?...... and if the 2 million or so people did secede, how would it hurt india (other than a bruised ego) ?............. my feeling is that nations are like soccer fans - they have this sick desire to identify with something ``bigger`` and ``stronger`` than what they can individually accomplish ....... and their megalomaniac leaders exploit this human weakness to satisfy their insatiable lust for power .............

hamidm#256:

I will first address the general question before getting into specifics.

The way I see it, individual human rights are distinct from a people`s right to self-determination. The first right is the right of every human being by virtue of birth, the second is a people`s right which has to be justified. It is easy to have one without the other. For example, there are still people in India who would claim that there were fewer human rights violations in India during the British Rule than is the case now.

The second right, namely of self-determination, can only be established on a case-by-case basis. For example, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Asian republics were all part of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which, in theory, were indpendent republics even when they were part of the USSR with the right to secede. India, Algeria, S. Africa, etc., were all colonies of far away lands who got their rights to freedom only after Colonialism went out of favour.

You are right about larger countries not necessarily making for happy countries. But that is a different issue. Whether or not Kashmiris can claim to have a right to self-determination is a separate issue; in my opinion, Pakistan correctly calls it an unfinished business of partition.

teshah#254:

You may be right. Indians may have found out about the intransigence of the new President of Iran and taken it into consideration in their decision. All one can say is Allah save Iran from Ayatollahs!

do tam brahmins in general create educational institutes for dalits? if they did so India would have had universal literacy ages ago, why then do u expect a rich muslim, a breed which is rare enough, to create schools for poor muslims. the one really rich muslim I have read about is Azim Premji he opened a few schools for all indians, as it should be, i am not saying open schools for muslims what I am saying is open schools in muslim and dalit and OBC areas with incentives.

You and wiseguyin and ranger like most educated indians think that since u have slogged itout so should a poor person`s child. Have u noticed how even the most mediocre child of a middle/upper class individual clears at least a first degre or sets up a busines or some how or the other manages to lead a reasonable life where as an equivalent child of a servant or a rickshaw puller is unable to even complete primary education, if he is above average he completes secondary school? It has a lot to with the environment one is born in, the fact that ones parents are educated, that they guide and set rules and habits and set expectations, that one goes to a good school with good teachers and where fellow students are educated with expectaions again playing a role, that ones neighbours all end up going to college, that ones relatives and cousins etc all have the same expectations . now imagine creating that for a child whose mother weaves or works as a domestic or lifts bricks on her head and whose father pulls a rickshaw or works as a daily wage labourer, if he is lucky other wise the father may just be an alcoholic or an unemployed waster. see his neighbours, his parents, his school, his teachers who dont turn up or themselves cant speak in an overcrowded class room, look at his cousins look at the expectation, often he will miss a meal, there will be demands for resource from the the younger children if the boy is lucky he will complete primary education other wise he will be put to work even before that as a weaver or bidi maker or chai walah or boot polish wala, a truckers helper or a domestic.

Very few children take to education with a relish, it is a disagreeable business for all to sit infront of books but the parents who are educated and middle class ensure that their child does so often sitting with the todller themselves, when the child is a little older he realises himself that this is the only way to make a future, otherwise he does it under peer and parental pressure or expectations. What will a 4 or 5 year old child of a bai do sit down with the books on his own or play gilli danda with the street children?

it is amazing that such things that one sees infront of ones eyes every day have to be spelt out.

and u also want political assasinations to be carried out with a Nuclear tipped neighbour, u think the Pakistani`s are Palestinians o turbaned one please stick to homeopathy.

re:#290 by hindvi
You are no different from Farzana bibi. It looks like all IMs have one thing in common: whining.
Education in India is a state subject. If muslims elect MLAs in a constituency, they should make that guy responsible for their welfare. Is Urdu faring better in Bihar where Lallu yadav swears by his secular credentials?
Besides, nobody will stop muslims from starting their own educational institutions that teach urdu. Look at the christian missionary schools and colleges doing a great service. These are very secular and give quality education. Can u name even one muslim educational institution of similar nature? Why do u always depend on the govt help? Many rich muslims do not do as much for your community. And there are no muslim leaders worthy of mention today.
Sridhar
P.S: As a footnote, Tam Brahms, after being wiped out politically in the 60s, decided wisely to depend on private institutions and their own efforts. You would notice the difference.

re:#270 by ranjit
The level of corruption and depravity is such in India that anybody could be bribed to leave those packet bombs at busy intersections. It could be the handywork of some poor hindu souls who were offered huge bribes. It makes a lot more sense to go and strike at the top. Where is the root of all this? Is it in pakistan? or elsewhere?
Sridhar

re: Ranjit`s post
``...its leader Prof. Hafeez Saeed and his family lives in Lahore and interacts closely with Pak media and authorities. India must immediately oraganize the assasination of Hafeez Saeed, his subordinates and his family...``
India is a soft state. Do u think GOI has the guts to do this? Dawood Ibrahim killed thousands in Bombay blast and lives with impunity somewhere in Karachi. The problem is: for all the talking and breast beating, Indian politicians are one breed of mofukcing cowards. That cowardice comes from living a life of opulence and corruption. They are more prone to negotiations than the drastic step u suggest. Israel would have long assasinated dawood. Forget India can ever do this.

``The second response has to be given to local muslims who collaborated with the L-e-T. In a few days these people are going to celebrate Eid. If we hindus have any sense of shame, we will make their Eid as dark as they have made our Diwali. We can also get RDX and plant it in Jama Masjid and 4 other mosques in Delhi. Lets see how they feel when hundreds of their people die during Eid.``
This is a stupid idea. If u have a weed in your garden, u do not destroy the whole garden to get rid of that weed. If what u suggest is done, it would lead to nationwide rioting and bring to halt the economic progress. You will see all the MNCs quietly leave the country. This is what these terrorists want.
Sridhar

re: Ranjit`s post
``...its leader Prof. Hafeez Saeed and his family lives in Lahore and interacts closely with Pak media and authorities. India must immediately oraganize the assasination of Hafeez Saeed, his subordinates and his family...``
India is a soft state. Do u think GOI has the guts to do this? Dawood Ibrahim killed thousands in Bombay blast and lives with impunity somewhere in Karachi. The problem is: for all the talking and breast beating, Indian politicians are one breed of mofukcing cowards. That cowardice comes from living a life of opulence and corruption. They are more prone to negotiations than the drastic step u suggest. Israel would have long assasinated dawood. Forget India can ever do this.

``The second response has to be given to local muslims who collaborated with the L-e-T. In a few days these people are going to celebrate Eid. If we hindus have any sense of shame, we will make their Eid as dark as they have made our Diwali. We can also get RDX and plant it in Jama Masjid and 4 other mosques in Delhi. Lets see how they feel when hundreds of their people die during Eid.``
This is a stupid idea. If u have a weed in your garden, u do not destroy the whole garden to get rid of that weed. If what u suggest is done, it would lead to nationwide rioting and bring to halt the economic progress. You will see all the MNCs quietly leave the country. This is what these terrorists want.
Sridhar

``Regarding Ram Janmabhoomi , we say Ram was born there because thats what our faith tells us. Its not for a fanatic following a religion founded by a mad pedophile to tell us whether our beliefs are baseless or not``

se I am not saying that Ram was not born in Ayodhya, all I am saying is what I saw on Newstrack during the agitation, The reporter went to ayodhya and several mandir, more than a dozen still claimed until 89/90 that Lord ram was born there. suddenly for some reason they all withdrew their clain around 91/92. By the way a Kar Sewak also claimed their that Lord Ram was born derh Lakh saal pehley, another cliamed teen lakh saal, I have no problem with them saying so, even though we know home sapiens are around 100,000 years in age, for it was faith speaking. But i do have a problem if Dost mittar mouths the sangh Parivar line and says Aryans did not come to india, or were the first settlers despite the genetic evidence know that the aryanesque hindus are genetically closest to Iranians and and Caucasians, as also the skeletons found at Mohenjodaro and Harappa being that of a non aryan people.


Also I must inform, u that the invaders of india were nomadic central asians, not neccessarily muslims fighting hindus, because they inflicted more damage on mulim iranians and turks than they did on India, and by the time Timur, babar, Nadir Shah etc rolled in india was already being ruled by muslims so the people they defeated first and wrested power from were muslims. Even aurangzeb did not spare the deccan muslim kings, just like the marathas once they took power didnt hesitate from looting rajputs or fellow hindus.

Ranger, wiseguyin

You RSS mofos are just as dangerous for India as the jihadis are for Pakistan...

You dont use religion for hating each other, ya dope ya...thats one of the reasons why I`m totally disgusted with the concept of religion. There are more than 160 million muslims in India. You want to ``gauge`` their patriotism on how much they like or dislike Pakistan?

These are muslims, who, for one reason or the other decided to stay in India. Please dont tell them (or their descendants) that they made a mistake...

I am not saying discrimination and hatred is a one way street, it occurs the other way round and happens all over the Subcontinent, Just as Hindus say prejudiced things about muslims, muslims say nasty things about Hindus I have heard every body from a bengali to a punjabi to a muhajir say stuff as I have heard punjabi shanarthis, sikhs, UPites, Jains, Banias, Gujaratis and maharashtrans.

infact this is a universal phenomenon, black/white, gentile/jew. but the onus lies on the state to fix this.


My ancestors may have lorder it over, and i dont approve of it if they did so, i even suport the abolishment of zamindari which was an unjust system. But that was the way of the world then , we live in a diferent age with a different society, state and norms we shouldnt regress and go back to the stone age. the state should be proactive and open schools, offer mid day meals make education more vocational. not that the state doesnt do these things but more proactive and vigorous interest has to be shown in the interest of society.

The state does do stuff but not the substantive stuff, I will give u an example it has a Unani medicine service which runs clinics and hospitals in many large and small towns across India, it gives Haj subsidy but this is not important stuff, muslims can do very well with less religion in their lives. On the other hand a language like urdu which was created in India has been wiped out and the government didnt do anything like teaching in schools etc. forget that even the common language of north india hindustani (intermediate between urdu and hindi) which was understood if not spoken widely until 1947 across India and pakistan has been wiped out, teachers would penalise me if i used a hindustani word in my hindi class or exam paper, and why shouldnt they the syllabus has been set such. The situation is even worse in UP I cannot understand the TV news or what the local politicians say, or even those like the clerk who were educated in hindi medium and the govt ofices which conduct transactions in hindi. Hindustani which was use in common was removed soon after 1947, some of this was the inevitable fallout of partition as Pakistan was non hinduised and india was non muslimised (i use those words purposely because in India and pakistan both western linguistic influence was considered acceptable) and it is also true that these tendencies were strong even before independence in fact that is why partition took place, but in India`s case it purported to be a secular country and it had a large muslim minority so for the sake of social cohesion if not principle such a policy was not wise.


In pakistan the situation is even worse so that some people ask what civilizational comonality do we have with hindus? well the simple answer is from our birth to our marriage and death all the customs we foolow are hindu or more precisely Indic, i.e. that of our ancestors. from the teesra to the tervi on our death and the uptan and mehendi in our marriages to the bridal red, the giving of jahez, the givingh of gifts from the wifes side on the birth of the child, to the obsequisness of the sasur and saala infront of the damad as if he has done a big favour, heck even the songs the women sing on marraiage and child birth in the gangetic planes are the same.

> See if a guys life is miserable and he gets nothing from an entity and society which demands
So only muslims are poor .... Hmmm. Ok.

> escapist tales ... believes to be true...
I think all muslims believe it to be true. Even well to do ones. Thats y jehad gets funded.

> but i found better treatment in the US and UK than I found in my native land, ....
Kindly wait - these countries have not seen Islam as closely as the ones who have suffered it.
Already you are beginning to c the effects in US. The more they know you ....... :).
You get my drift..

regards,
SN

What do you think will happen with these bomb blasts Hindvi ? Perhaps this time the kufr will be scared into giving you jobs and accommodation ?

....why are you so hated in your native land Hindvi ? Why are you denied accomodation , and jobs Hindvi ? Just because of the name ? Why Hindvi ? Why do the kufr hate you so ?

Imagine the gall of those upstart kufrs who you used to lord over for so many hundred years...

wiseguyin
See if a guys life is miserable and he gets nothing from an entity and society which demands his allegiance while on the other hand their is widespread discrimination in society from the renting of accomodation to the polling booth, and certainly at times of riot then he will naturally have higher allegiance to escapist tales of the other world which he with his limited education and exposure believes to be true.


Ranger
I am ashamed to say this but i found better treatment in the US and UK than I found in my native land, i wasnt judged by the sound of my name.

Hindvi...tell me , if you live in the US.....how do people react as soon as they come to know that you are a muslim ? How do people react in India ? Why do they give you that `look` ? Why Hindvi ? Why do they all hate you ?

Hindvi...you are wasting your time. Forget hindus. Most hindus are stupid dhimmis anyway. Post 9-11 the entire world knows about muslims. You are getting hounded everywhere. In US , UK , Spain , Australia and even in France. What will you do Hindvi ? Everybody hates you.

Regarding Ram Janmabhoomi , we say Ram was born there because thats what our faith tells us. Its not for a fanatic following a religion founded by a mad pedophile to tell us whether our beliefs are baseless or not.

Re #279
Hindvi - stop daydreaming. This is the cult of Mohammed that we are talking about. No amount
of reservations/affirmative actions can dilute the effect that ur book has on you.
Remember the riots that erupted in northern england a couple of years back ...
All this mumbo-jumbo of u guys becoming normal is just that - mumbojumbo. Its always
one ``valid`` reason or the other ...... riots in India are blamed on Hindus, riots in England are blamed on whites .... riots in Thailand are blamed on Budhdhists.

The species H0m0 Sapiens and H0m0 Islamus cannot live together. Period. All free socities
are today shuddering because of the crazies that live amongst them.

regards,
SN

Ranger u sincerely believe that is what I am saying

you say muslims created all the disruption but tell me until the Ram Janambhoomi and shilanyas, and the BJPs Rath Yatra and inflammatory speeches in every village and town and distributions of cassetes and videos talking of rapes of hindu women and destructions of temples and the completely baseless allegation of Lord Ram being born in Babri when dozens of other temples in Ayodhta itself claimed that privilige were hindu muslim relations as bad? maybe in certain hot spots like Moradabad and Meerut and kanpur but certainly not across the length and breadth of India.

Haha...Hindvi`s threat : Give us reservation in jobs , else we are gonna blow your markets...

there are many successful muslims in India, but they are those who atleast had some base i.e. were from the middle or upper middle classes, the vast bulk continues to lead a most miserable existence as rickshaw pullers or workers. you would be right if u said that so do low caste hindus, and since these poor muslims are converts from the low castes and untouchables they share the same conditions, but their is a difference the scheduled castes have had reservation since the 50s and even the other backward castes have had reservations for long so you can see them as police constables, sub inspectors and clerks or low level officers in govt., and since it has been some time since their was reservations in the IAS, IPS and allied services now one sees a large number of senior oficers as well or some other forms of empowerment.

plus since many things in india are community and caste based for example a police havaldar or subedar/jamadar in the army from a particular village will recruit other havladers from his village and biradri so their is also nepotism in which muslims loose out for example a punjabi hindu helps fellow punjabis or a tam brahmin helps a fellow tam brahmin but for the muslim they have prejudice, a feeling that he cannot be trusted, and since their are no muslims in senior position he cant get the nepotistic push either.

do muslims from the really poor background not do well academically? yes but then neither do scheduled castes or OBCs or for that american blacks but america creates affirmative action programs for them, that is the hall mark of a progressive liberal society that it creates space for all and allows a share in the pie, it is good moraly, it increases diversity and also its good for creating a cohesive and strong society.

Look at the schedule caste leaders like ambedkar at Independence they were so alienated but affirmative actions and reservations undertaken by Nehru and ome other liberal leaders against the wishes of the majority of the hindu population has paid off and dalits have a greater sense of belonging.

HisChutiyaExcellency....nobody asked for your advise. Get lost.

Re:hindvi#275

You know that hindus, including myself, will never actually go and bomb innocent muslim civilians. It is just not in our nature to do this sort of hideous stuff. Our anger and frustration is because of the situation in the country over the past 20 years due to endless jihadi activities sponsored by our neighbor in the name of religion. In the Indian subcontinent, it is the muslims who behave like Israelis by first creating their own country based on religion. Just like the Israelis mistreat Palestinians and carry out attacks, Pakistanis and their collaborators in India regularly carry out attacks against hindus. So your comparison is actually opposite.

We hindus have always reached out to muslims. Basically whatever they have ever wanted, they have got from us. They wanted to rule India, they did so for 800 years. They wanted to separate themselves into Pakistan, they got it. The only thing we have not conceded is the Kashmir valley to Pakistan. Even there, Kashmiri muslims have all the land and elect their own government and India has allowed soft borders. No matter what has happened, whether it is partition riots or Kargil or Ayodhya attacks or jihadi violence, hindus have remained secular all the time. Muslims are very much in the mainstream in India. Muslims are in every walk of life ad India takes pride in its muslim citizens. Look at the respect it has given to Dr. Kalam and to so many muslim celebrities. This reaching out to a minority is unparalleled in any other country, islamic or non-islamic.

The