Scream

=== Interact Removed ===

Re: # 158

Romair #158: Your twisted and fuzzy logic becomes rubbish about your posts. I have mentioned several times that please be crisp, clear and pointed. Most of us are not interested in your narratives. That is what the actual articles are supposed to generate. On some sites your posts are much more voluminous than the article itself. You can decide to just post one or two comments.

But, it appears to me that you create an unnecessary dialogue, and over take the article itself. It is rude and disrespectful in and of itself. I wonder how the writer’s must be feeling. It is similar to inviting you to my house, and you start telling me everything what is wrong with my house and with me.

Just look at the first few comments posted by most people. One-liners mostly. Until you show up with your long drawn out logic, and then all hell breaks loose. And you call it a discussion.

Sir, I can be sure that is not what the writer’s intended to be. Mostly, it is you that tears to whole articles intention. And you must stop doing that.

Now, commenting your mostly ridiculous argument that mafia’s are considered businesses. Maybe you consider a thief as business, but I don’t. I don’t consider a thief as a business. People who don’t pay taxes are thieves, as well as those tax collecting government bureaucrats who show mechanism of avoiding tax collecting.

I never knew that businesses are institutions until I heard your definition.

I have never said that Pakistan is not a corrupt country. It is because of the institutions inside Pakistan, and yes institutions are made of people. But, there is a dynamics of institutions, in and of itself that breed corruption. And that is true with all countries. The level of corruption just varies. And that is why Pakistan has attained that distinction in being the corrupt country.

But this argument does not validate your thought regarding group being corrupt. And that is where we were at the beginning of this long drawn discussion.

Your constantly change the variables, the bases of your arguments. You constantly compare values Pakistan and the US. Pakistan is not the US. It could be one but it is not. There are 200 years of methodical implementation of institutional values. Pakistan has 60 years of methodical destruction of institutional values. Do you see the difference?

Mostly those who were part of the so-called institution brought this destruction, namely the military, the mullahs, and some politicians. Any and all of the intellectuals were side stepped by these players of the institutions.

{The business community, like any community, in an institution.} I disagree. I do not consider businesses as institution.

[The Income Tax dept, in Pakistan, is considered one of the most corrupt in Pakistan.] It is the enforcement that is lacking. This institution is corrupt. Just like police is corrupt and they go about raping women. Would you argue that women want to be raped, because your President thinks that’s what it is? Are you nuts?

Again, mafias are not businesses in my opinion. You might consider people who sell opium as businesses, but I don’t.


[It is people and businesses, who bribe Wapda employees to make sure their homes and businesses don`t have to pay correct electricity bills, etc.] Again, the bureaucrats of institution established the system first.

[I have never done a penny of corruption in my life. But being in this group, I am also an indirect beneficiary.] This is where your logic gets twisted. Just because you are a Muslim does not make you a terrorist. Just because I was born in Pakistan does not make me corrupt.

I will let my argument rest for a while by agreeing with you that all people in Pakistan should take leadership and bring corrupt institutions under control […lets …… clean out the houses of the institutions only]

The scream is being heard and repeated ....

Today`s editorial from WashingtonPost

Uncharitable Charity


Thursday, October 27, 2005; Page A26

RICH COUNTRIES should give more money to poor ones. But it`s even more obvious that, when they do give money, they should do so in a helpful way. The United States, for example, should not promise food for famine victims half a world away, then allow those victims to starve because it insists that the food must be bought domestically and shipped across the ocean on American vessels. Yet this and other forms of ``tied aid`` are common. A Bush administration plan to untie part of U.S. food aid is being held up in Congress.

The latest example of uncharitable charity comes from the Kashmir earthquake. Some 80,000 people have died as a result of the quake, nearly all of them in Pakistan, but relief workers say that the death toll is sure to rise further unless help arrives immediately. About 3 million people are homeless, many of them in inaccessible mountain villages, and the punishing Himalayan winter arrives soon. People need shelter and food to survive the freezing temperatures, but bad weather is already hampering helicopter relief missions, and once the winter sets in, further relief may become impossible. Medical help is even more urgent. At least 75,000 people were severely injured by the quake, and many are suffering infections for lack of timely medical care. Limbs that could have been saved must now be amputated.


Against this background, the United Nations convened a conference of donors yesterday. Rich countries stepped forward with pledges of $580 million. But less than $16 million of that was for immediate relief, leaving the United Nations with just a fifth of what it says it needs over the next few weeks. A new $251 million pledge from the Islamic Development Bank is supposed to be spent on long-term reconstruction, and the same is true of an earlier pledge for $333 million from Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait. The European Commission has promised $96 million for reconstruction, but just over $2 million for immediate use. In a rare instance of understatement from a relief official, Jan Egeland of the United Nations commented: ``It is, in my view, not right to sit with reconstruction money for one year from now if we`re not sure whether those people will be alive one year from now.``

The earthquake was a natural tragedy; the postdated checks from donors are a man-made one. What`s needed now is cash that can be spent immediately, along with more helicopters; the relief agency Oxfam has also called for tents to be released from military stockpiles, because suitable ones can`t be procured on the world market fast enough. Pakistan`s government could help by setting aside historical suspicion and accepting India`s offer of helicopters, rather than objecting to the fact that Indian helicopters come with Indian crews. But the outside world, and particularly the United States and its allies, have an interest in doing their part. Kashmir is home to Islamic terrorists whose war against the Indian government does not preclude attacks on Western targets. If the West stands by while thousands die from infections and hypothermia, it will fuel the anger from which the terrorists gain.

Re: # 159 Romair said ``It just needs a military, to hold back India for a day or two, so that it can launch nukes.``

+++

Gosh, Romair, you are really really out of touch with reality. If you think that the whole Indo-Pak thing is a contest, forget it! We have our lives to lead in India, and I do not see any ``invasion`` of Pakistan as being any part of it. If anything, Bangladesh is capable of creating more of a problem for India now than pakistan.

Yes, it does seem as though Pakistan is in re-shaping mode already, if you look at what is happening in Baluchistan and the North West as well as the Tribal belts adjoining Afghanistan. That is your internal issue, then again, for most of you, even Lahore Railway Station is a distant land as you go on and on about Lahore Airport, so how would you know?

Yes, Indian Sukhois have now been flying over Islamabad at 65-70000 feet for the past few years without being challenged, so what, the Americans have been doing it for almost a decade now, or more. But your Government has to make a fuss about Indian choppers with Indian pilots, even if they were going to be in United Nations colours. (White choppers with UN written on them operated by people wearing blue berets, and I know that these were on stand-bye)

Bandwidth into Pakistan is from Indian companies. tea is from Indian companies. Trucks, highways, these are from Indian companies. On the other hand, Indian companies are setting up assembly plants for two-wheelers and irrigation pumpsets in Pakistan. One of the most succesful solar programmes in the world is in in rural Pakistan and is in collaboaration with, right, you guessed it, an Indian company. Pakistani medicos are now interning under Indian doctors in Indian hospitals. Indian doctors are going into Pakistan to set up branches.

Look at the positive side of what I am saying.

Is that too much to ask or will you continue leading poor and illiterate people along the path of imaginary fears, as your rulers have been doing for decades now?

#154 by khamkhwa. on October 26, 2005 4:04pm PT
Re: # 140
ijaz gul...
veeresh`s slanted views are nothing new...specially his wishful thinking of the repetition of the `71 tragedy... ignore him and his cynical comments and carry on with your good work...our prayers are with you...

+++

Yes, and some people`s historical habits of shooting or even hanging the messenger are also nothing new . . . as for the `71 tragedy, thank the Lord that at least you have finally admitted that it WAS a tragedy, for most others of your ilk it was a Glorious Victory over Unsuitable Pakistanis of bengali origin etcetc., right?

All I am saying is that screams (or prayers) at this juncture are not all that is needed. Some common sense and quantifiable results are.

+++

Ahmadzai #155: ``Just to clarify many contributors of Pakistani origin on downsizing of Pakistani military, we will not do it to the level as being proposed by them. The reason is that we have our own vision.``

There will be no other way to adjust the budget for this earthquake, then to cut military purchases. I don`t think Musharraf will cut down the size of the military, but I think he should. At least for ten years. He should cut down all other unnecessary expenditures also. 65 ministers etc. And introduce land reforms. The country is united, and it will support him.....

Pakistan has enough of a deterence against India, as long as it has nukes. It just needs a military, to hold back India for a day or two, so that it can launch nukes. No country with nukes has ever had its international border crossed. Such countries always fight their wars in other disputed areas.......

At its current size, the Pakistan military is too small to attack India, and too large than what is needed to defend itself against India........Social services needs to be the name of the game for ten years. After which Pakistan can think about being a leader of other groups, including the Muslim countries, or Central Asian countries etc........

Behram1 #156: If you are going to ask questions, then you need to try to interact with people, without using words like rubbish. Otherwise they will not answer your questions. Everyone has their point of view on life. If you disagree with it. A simple, ``I disagree with it,`` suffices.

As a whole, in any poor society, a tiny elite that is rich, to the point of being in the top 3% of the USA society, much less in the Pakistani society, has greatly benefited from the corrupt system. If everyone in Pakistan is as honest as you say, then why in the world is the country ranked regularly as one of the top 10 corrupt countries in the world, year after year.

Institutions are nothing more than the people who make them. The business community, like any community, in an institution. Are you seriously going to tell me that it is honest as an institution? I am a part of it. Do you know how much tax evasion goes on in Pakistan. The business community is supposed to pay the most taxes. Barely 1% of Pakistan pays tax. The whole tax coming out of Liberty Market in Lahore is a tiny fraction of what should be paid. While crores of business goes on there. The Income Tax dept, in Pakistan, is considered one of the most corrupt in Pakistan. Who is at the other end of the corruption? Obivously the guys who are to pay taxes. Of which businessmen are the main group, where the taxes should come from. As a group, the Pakistani business institution carries out massive tax evasion.

The guy who built the Margalla tower was a businessmen. He carried out massive corruption. You mentioned Cowasjee. He regularly writes about the massive corruption in so many business entities, to the point of there being mafia........

Wapda, according to the book, ``Waiting for Allah,`` by a British author, is the most corrupt institution in the world. How does that corruption occur? Who is at the other end? It is people and businesses, who bribe Wapda employees to make sure their homes and businesses don`t have to pay correct electricty bills, etc.

This is all part of the affluent society in Pakistan. Everyone is in it. Military leadership, civilian leadership, business leadership, civil services, feudals etc. This is where all of us in Chowk hook up into. Our parents, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. are all in the affluent group. I have never done a penny of corruption in my life. But being in this group, I am also an indirect beneficiary.

We need to, as a group - the affluent group of Pakistan - need to start taking responsibility and blame, for where Pakistan is today. Instead of looking for others to blame..........We cannot keep passing the buck to the next institution.......That has always been Pakistan`s achilles heal. The Army blames the feudals, who blame the businessmen, who blame the civil servants, who blame the Army, And then everyone blames the mullah. Who then blames Israel and then USA and India and what not..... First and foremost, lets blame ourselves and clean out the houses of the insititution/community we belong to......

Ahmadzai# Welcome back..........Good to see you again......Sangayee

Ahmadzai,
Bienvenue!

Re: # 151


Romair #151: Please look at people at the realistic level. People are just people. You should not brand people. Institutions are different. Military is an institution, police is an institution, school is an institution, WAPDA is an institution, political parties are institutions, and mullahism is an institution. People in these institutions can and do get away with being corrupt. And then of course the whole institution gets a band name.

But groups are made up of individuals. Memons are groups, Bohras are groups, Ismailis are groups, Parsees are groups, Catholics are groups, and in my opinion, none of them are corrupt. So please do not get mixed up between the terms groups and institutions. Look at group at the practical level, and not at an abstract level as you suggested.

Actually, your assertion that groups are always corrupt, merely because it grew in a corrupt environment is totally baseless and erroneous. [But as a group, they will, at the very least be direct beneficiaries of a corrupt system.]

[Let me give you an example…]

I have already refuted your similar examples, so there is no need to get into similar hypothetical examples. Those Pakistanis who were rich did not stay back in a foreign land to start all over again.

The example on house values that you have given is ridiculous. Comparing it with drug money is humiliating to the millions of dollars remitted to Pakistan by hard working Pakistanis abroad. I would, however, concede that the ill-gotten wealth by the military wallas and their usurping of the Pakistani land for defense housing societies, etc, is a topic that you concentrate on.

But, please do not include me in that story. I do believe that most on the Chowk are just regular schmucks who have nothing to do with corruption. If any of them are wealthy, then they are probably wealthy because

a. they were competent, and
b. they worked hard

I do agree with you, however, that we must be a part of some solution to get rid of corruption.

[We are living at Western world standards in a society that has a per capita income of 1/50th of the Western world.]We must provide opportunities for everyone to grow to the western standards. And not dumb down others to provide for an egalitarian society. Why penalize excellence?

[Much of this is due to our hard work. But much of it is due to the unfair advantages we enjoy; even if we did not individually create those unfair advantages.] You failed to enumerate. How much of this is due to hard work? How much of this is due to unfair advantage?

The rest of your item 2 is just some left wing communist rhetoric, which does not deserve a response at least on this board.

[If you fall under any or all of those, you are without a doubt from the top 1%. Infact, from a fraction of the top 1%.] For your information, most people on Chowk are considered to be in the top 3% of the US economy, due to their income, education level and living standards. By your thought then, this is all due to the corrupt system. What rubbish!

[I think they don`t realize how poor the rest of Pakistan happens to be.] Actually, I do realize how poor Pakistan is and that is why I am contributing by participating in these discussions with you. It is the poverty in Pakistan that should be discussed, and not try to place blame on groups of people. As usual, people who ever were part of the established institutions continue to work toward deflecting the keen eye from the ball.

Yes, I agree with you [we should continue it some other place...........]

Respectfully submitted,

Hi.

I have joined after a long hiatus just to share the following:

• This is an excellent article.

• The people of Pakistan have thanked foreign donors (both countries like Turkey, USA, UK, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. and humanitarian groups) to have come to our help. While the foreign countries, no matter how prosperous they are, may or may not extend the kind of help our people need, it’s the Pakistani people who have shown that we are capable of responding to all kinds of challenges given our meager resources. It is a heartening experience to see Pakistanis of all ethnic and political background united for the same cause to reach out to their brethren in the hour of their greatest need. I personally know of women belonging to extremely conservative families of Mardan District who have traveled to Kashmir and are working with women and children there.

• Just to clarify many contributors of Pakistani origin on downsizing of Pakistani military, we will not do it to the level as being proposed by them. The reason is that we have our own vision. We want to see Pakistan as a moderate Muslim country that is fully capable of playing a bigger role at the international level in the future. As a nuclear power state and a population that is 150 million strong we are already doing that in the international arena. Due to our active involvement, favorable results not only for Pakistan but also for the entire world are there loud and clear for all of us to see. In view of the realities around our borders, we will maintain a conventional force strong enough to meet any challenges.

• Kindly do not underestimate our adversary. Both Government officials and individuals working with international media have found that there is a strong force out there to block the news or paint a negative picture.

Once again, thanks to the writer for sharing what we needed to hear to act in a more humane manner.

Btw, this article has become attached in a chain email and is under circulation all over the world. I got an email today with this article. I am not sure where people read it and decided to forward it to others.

Re: # 140
ijaz gul...
veeresh`s slanted views are nothing new...specially his wishful thinking of the repetition of the `71 tragedy... ignore him and his cynical comments and carry on with your good work...our prayers are with you...

www.earthquakepakistan.com is the best website I have seen so far that provides information on this tragedy...........

UN doubles Asia earthquake appeal
BY SAM KNIGHT AND AGENCIES




The United Nations nearly doubled its appeal for aid for the victims of the South Asia earthquake today, telling member nations to dramatically increase their donations to the region.


The UN had so far managed to raise just $68 million of the $312 million it had requested to fund a response to the disaster. Today, the UN said it would need $550 million to provide tents, food and medical help to the estimated 3.3 million people left homeless by the earthquake.
``The scale of this tragedy almost defies our darkest imagination,`` Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General, told today`s donors conference in Geneva. ``We meet today to prevent a second shockwave of deaths and to prevent further suffering.``
Donations to the UN relief effort, which was launched by the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the aftermath of the earthquake on October 8, have been sluggish. Before this morning`s meeting, the US had donated $10.8 million to the fund and the UK $9.4 million. Seven prosperous countries, including Spain, France and Belgium, had given nothing.
Jan Egeland, the UN`s chief aid co-ordinator, said today that some relief teams have already spent all their money and that limited funding meant that the 74,000 people injured by the earthquake were receiving inadequate medical care. At least 55,000 people were killed by the quake.
``We needed the money yesterday. We are amputating far too many limbs,`` said Mr Egeland, who told today`s meeting that hundreds of thousands of survivors will need food, blankets and winterised tents to survive the Himalayan winter, where temperatures are already dropping below freezing.
Hilary Benn, the International Development Secretary, was at today`s meeting in Geneva. Britain has given a total of £44 million ($78 million) so far to fund earthquake relief, including its donation to the UN and £11 million ($19.5 million) to Echo, the EU`s humanitarian organisation. The US has pledged a total of $50 million.
According to a spokesman at the Department for International Development, Britain has chosen to give most of its money to Oxfam and NGO`s such as Islamic Relief because they have contacts in the disaster zone and are able to dispense aid more quickly.
``The thing about this relief operation is that... we need to fund groups with established relief networks in the area,`` said the spokesman.
The British public has so far given around £25 million for the victims of the earthquake, which has killed around 80,000 people. Donations for the victims of the tsunami reached £100 million within ten days of the disaster.
In a message to donors today, Oxfam said that the practical difficulties of the relief operation, which the UN has described as a worst case scenario, are being exacerbated by the slow donations of the world`s richest nations.
``The logistical nightmare in Pakistan is bad enough without having to worry about funding shortfalls as well,`` said Phil Bloomer, Oxfam’s Policy Director, in a statement. ``Governments meeting in Geneva today must put their hands in their pockets and pay their fair share. The public will be shocked that so many rich governments have given so little.``
In a separate appeal, the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies also doubled its aid appeal today, to $117 million.
Top donors to the UN OCHA appeal, before today`s meeting:
US $10.8m
UK $9.4m
Japan $8m
Netherlands $7.8m
Norway $7.1m
Sweden $6m
Canada $5.3m
Australia $3.8m
Denmark $2.9m
Countries yet to donate to the UN appeal:
France
Spain
Belgium
Austria
Finland
Greece
Portugal

Behram1 #150: There are honest and dishonest individuals everywhere. I am looking at groups at an abstract level. For example, civil services in Pakistan is generally considered very corrupt. Some of the most honest people I have ever met are individual civil servants. But, as an organization and group, I would say they are corrupt in Pakistan.....

1. Any group that gains influence, in a poor society, at an abstract level, will have done so through a corrupt system. The system will have catered to them, and they will have benefited from it. Each and everyone of them, will not be corrupt. But as a group, they will, at the very least be direct beneficiaries of a corrupt system.

Let me give you an example: A lot of us on Chowk have homes in affluent areas (Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi etc.). The values of these homes are very high. They may constitute the main portions of our wealth. Using this wealth, we can study in good colleges, or buy a car etc. Much of the value of those homes is due to a corrupt system. If I sell mine, the money I will be getting may be drug money. Or money that was a product of someone else`s corruption. Feudal money. Kickback money. However, I will become wealthy through it. Had the system been honest, my net value would be lower, because much of the money under circulation, in the group we (Chowk crowd) belong to, is from corruption. If not yours and mine individual corruption, other people`s corruption.

We are all directly and indirectly benefitting from it. So at an abstract level, as a group (not individually, for each person) that is affluent in Pakistan, we are part of the problem. Not part of the solution. We are living at Western world standards in a society that has a per capita income of 1/50th of the Western world. Much of this is due to our hard work. But much of it is due to the unfair advantages we enjoy; even if we did not individually create those unfair advantages. Rest assured the middle class and lower middle class views us as such........

2. As you you being part of the upper class or me being part of it: That is not a group one can join or leave, by making a declaration. It is based on income, assets, net value, access to facilitites, etc. The per capita income of Pakistan is $726. That is $2/day. Compare your income to it. My guess is you make many times that per hour. If you make even $10/hr, you are already 5 times the per capita income. Five times per capita, puts one in the top financial group of any society. The literacy rate of Pakistan is 45%, i..e people who can read an Urdu newspaper, at minimum level. The college literacy rate is a tiny fraction of that. Those with foreign education are far less than 1%. Less than 1% of Pakistani have access to an English newspaper. There are only 1.5 million cars in Pakistan, for a population of 150 million. So only 1% have access to their own personal car. Less than 1% have Internet access at home. In addition, anyone who can employ another human being for domestic help as a cook, etc. 24x7 is generally from the upper class, in any society. So on and so forth......

If you fall under any or all of those, you are without a doubt from the top 1%. Infact, from a fraction of the top 1%. I think everyone in Chowk falls in nearly each of the above category. I think they don`t realize how poor the rest of Pakistan happens to be. Most of the people in Pakistan live like those who got affected in the earthquake in the villages. Compare your lifestyle (or mine) to theirs.....

Anyways, while the discussion around budget re-allocation is related to the topic of earthquake relief, this discussion is not. So based on Ijaz_Gul`s comment, we should continue it some other place...........

Re: # 147

Dear Romair:

Thank you for a response.

Just by extending your definition it would appear that any body who succeeds in life must have been corrupt. This is wrong.

By corruption, I am assuming that you mean ill gotten financial wealth.

Let us be clear about this, once and for all. I do not consider myself from the upper class. You can go around and blow your own bugle that you are from the upper class, etc. but I will never do that. Because I am not and that will be inauthentic about me.

[The upper class of Pakistan, as a whole, is viewed quite negatively by the middle and lower class of Pakistan.] I never for once considered our Parsee philanthropists` as corrupt. And they are not. Ardeshir Cowasjee is rich and I know that he is not corrupt. The Bugtis are rich, but I would not consider them corrupt. The Gabols are rich but I would not consider them corrupt. Khan of Kalat is rich but I would not consider them corrupt.

However, I do consider military wallas generally as corrupt. I do consider some politicians generally as corrupt. I do consider some mullahs generally as corrupt. But I will not brush all of them with one brush, as you do.

I do consider this thought of yours as corrupt. Please reconsider your corrupt thought.

[Less than 1% of Pakistan has Internet access at home. An even tinier number has a foreign degree. So if you have both of these, you are definitely from the 1% or far less of Pakistan. I think most urban Pakistanis do not realize how poor Pakistan is.] That I do realize. I have hardworking friends at Siemens in Karachi and I know that they are not corrupt. I have hardworking friends in K.E.S.C. and I know that they are not corrupt. I have hardworking friends in other Karachi businesses and I know that they are not corrupt.

I do agree with you, however, that there is corruption in Pakistani ruling class.

So WHAT?

Respectfully submitted,

nice articles atleast someone who knew the right time. Umair khan sir whom are talking to pakistani nowaday do not care about politics, they have done what they have to as a human being. As far as shouting is concern, no , ppl are too busy to keep themselve nd their family alive that they barely think about going against government or marching against there policies cuz they know there will be no solution and its a waste of time. Talking about media , media speaks the language of the government as our government have done nothing to save there nation.