Scream

Behram1 #127: I will try to answer you questions, one by one:

``do agree with you that the military wallas should not be given any other government job. But that is wishful thinking, and you know that.``

I am providing with the solution. Not with the means of achieving it. The only means for achieving it is for Musharraf to make decisions. Which, as I stated, he probably will not do, in this regard, to a great extent.........

``The rubbish that Pakistani military .....not be repeating their stupid thoughts or promotions.``

I could not understand this part of your question.....

``I have no idea what their pay scales are. Do you? Please let us know.``

The military pay scales are very low. Specifically for technically qualified people. A PAF pilot makes a small fraction of a PIA pilot. My friend with a Ph.D and ten years of experience, teaching in NUST, makes 1/8th of what he could make teaching at LUMS. I don`t recall the exact figures, but I made around Rs 9000/month or so (all benefits/allowances combined), as a Captain, ten twelve years ago. My friends outside with similar qualifications were making three times that.....

``I am sure that Pakistani military wallas do not get that kind of a generous retirement package, and they should not.``

The retirement package is quite good, in relation to the salary. Free medical for life. A pension. etc. I think the miltiary`s retirement costs are higher than the salary costs of the whole military, in the budget.......

`` will only have a vested interest if there is a postive outcome of my involvement``

Every group in Pakistan has huge vested interests. As do all of us on Chowk. We are the financial upper class of Pakistan. We are not very popular with the middle class of Pakistn, by the way. And as a group, we have done quite well in Pakistan`s corrupt system. It has served us well, in most cases. Some of us are feudals, some are sons of senior civil servants, military officers. Some are in PIA. Some have political contacts etc.....Some are abroad with foreign degrees........

``What level? Captains, don`t make enough? Compared to what?``

Everyone from Col and below, lives hand to mouth. Brigadiers and above live well. Generals live really well - serving or retired. There are about 150 total Generals in the combined three forces, at any one time. Also those who can leave the military and get good jobs - PIA, Foreign service etc. - live well also.....

``Military wallas are not supposed to have any vision. Their only mission is to defend their country. And this is not a vision. It is their MISSION.``

Yes, this is true. However, I was talking about vision to make these changes. Since it is the military that is running Pakistan. It would be the one which needs the vision. Which it doesn`t really have, due to reasons you mentioned.....

`` How can people`s rule flourish with this logic?....Who decides better options? You!``

I don`t know how. I am not providing logic, though. It is my personal opinion, as a citizen of Pakistan. An opinion that others may disagree with. But one that I have a right to have.....

``But,you opined that the military wallas think that they can build better roads etc. and of course, they have guns.``

Yes, this is what they think. Which is the core of the problem I am highlighting. Though this regime has changed this thinking, somewhat. But it still will not let go of Fauji Foundation, etc.

``So? these guys should be fired at a faster pace, I suppose!``

Not necessarily. They just should not be given civilian assets.....

``Please do not hold your breath for the military wallas to get out anything. Because they won`t. There is too much in it for them.``

I don`t think they will get out. As I said I am just giving the solution. Not a mechanism for the solution. As I also said, it will only happen if a major decision is taken by Musharraf. This was my whole point. Can he or will he take the decision, after this earthquake?

P.S. two things have happened, which point to the correct direction........

1. Education budget has been raised by 35%
2. F-16 deals is being cancelled or delayed

Re#116 Behram

Behram B. Atashband,

Just when I had the whole contingent figured out!

Just when I concluded creating a neat division of chowk`s selected shady somnambulists – into the two camps – the camp of the Beej versus the camp of the Booze-stricken – the latter including Behram the bad boy and his lowly gang of lawyer-likes and likewise looter ladies!

And just when I was getting ready to start considering what life-long vow to take to exact unending justice from those crafty, cruel, cucumber-like culprits – from the gang that would stoop to make Gangadin of a certain glorious G. – but for a few pictures and the efforts of a lowly janitor – alas, those pictures so cruelly condemned into the annals of chowk’s cyber trash merely on the basis of a few crass copyright clauses – alas, the pictures now all gone except for the measly few saved courtesy of Google caches and fearlessly extracted (no matter whether copyright or copyleft) and now safely ensconced on the back of that work horse that listens to the Beej and none else – that pride of a machine – the work-station-a-beej!

Yes, those pictures now held in reserve – should the same urgency or need arise again!

And so comfy was I!

And here you throw this completely new zinger!

Behram B. Atashbund, you have gotten hold of the brush! And what a brush it is!

The brush whose bristles burst with the slippery golden yellow – O what a butter! That subcontinental specialty – like no other specialty neverwhere!

Oh, that aroma!

And what a sneaky attack you carry out – how much worse than even Machiavelli’s!

You praise my writing! Do you have ANY idea what a pickle that puts me in?! And how difficult it makes things – to take your posts apart?! What was a fun pastime – instantaneously transformed into an act that would be morbidly saturated with guilt and consternation!

Have you heard the old Sanskrit couplet, which translates – “if you want the tree to give good fruit, make sure you irrigate its roots – just like if you want to be in the good books of a person, you better be nice to his babies!”

Behram B. Atashband – as you have guessed, my words are my babies! They come out Behram – I have no ownership of them! My babies have a mind of their own!

Behram B. Atashbund – you have made your master move – and brilliantly executed it – you have created an illumination from that flash of lightning and the illumination has left my vision stunned – and you have done it all from behind that humble façade!

The lubricating effects of the butter have done their job – they rescued you Behram – the butter has served you as it has done in the past for a few other chowkies – to get them off the hook – and to earn the proverbial nine lives – and therefore….

Therefore Behram B. Atashbund, you must hang on in there!

Hang on there, Behram B. Atashband – I give you back the remaining eight to use them wisely!

To live, to let live, and to prosper!

Not by cowering behind the coattails of dead leaders – but riding the crest of a powerful young tide that carries us to that brave new tomorrow!

And before you embark on that long journey of lecturing the Beej, Behram B. Atashbund, on the complexities of life and how life is more than a confrontation “between the Hindus and the Muslims” – go back and read some of the earlier posts that certain interactors have posted in the past – and go back and read with an OPEN mind what has been continuously been hammered in – again and again – about the evils of intransigence, and the repeated exhortation to not being its victim – so you can develop a more comprehensive profile – and a more complete picture!

Of the method behind the “madness”!

I wish you well,

Beej.

Re: # 120

Dear Romair:

Thank you for a response. I will try to untangle your logic gracefully so please have patience with me.

Compared to a government, if you are downsizing or rightsizing a private economic enterprise, then of course it is not very hard to do. But to downsize a government is very difficult. And besides, as you suggested, it should be done in 10 years. In politics, this time frame is eternity, even for Pakistan.

As an example, look at Germany. Germans are having a tough time incorporating the eastern half of their country. They are doing this unification thing since 1989, and their economy sucks.

You wrote... [No one should be allowed to go from one govt. job to another. Going from PAF to PIA or Army to Foreign services etc. should be banned. Once you retire, you should have to look for a job on your own. ] I do agree with you that the military wallas should not be given any other government job. But that is wishful thinking, and you know that.

As I have already suggested in my previous post, these military wallas can be retrained for an opportunity in the police world. And God knows Pakistan needs effective police force to maintain law and order.

Our discussion should be forward looking about what is the best solution for the economic prosperity of Pakistan, and not what the militay wallas think. They can think whatever they want. The established norm of the enlightened and civilized world does not think like our military wallas think, and you know that.

Because if they would then the western world`s infrastructure, such as highways, water treatment plants, rail system, airports, etc. would not have been built by the likes of Bechtel, URS, Kellog Brown and Root, etc.

The rubbish that Pakistani military wallas can do all the infrastructure themselves is that totally rubbish. Being a businessmen yourself, you should not be repeating their stupid thoughts or promotions.

[Do keep in mind that below the General ranks, the military is a very low-paying profession.]

I have no idea what their pay scales are. Do you? Please let us know.

If you can not answer this basic question, then we can agree to assume that just like the rest of the world, Pakistani military wallas depend on their retirement income from the Government. As an example, I have heard, in the US, people who have worked in the post office for over 25 years and are above 55 years old can get approximately 60% of their salary plus all the benefits for the rest of their life. I am sure that Pakistani military wallas do not get that kind of a generous retirement package, and they should not.

I am sorry but I disagree with your premise that [However, much like every other group in Pakistan (including all of us elitist Chowk crowd), the military has vested interests in Pakistan.]

I will only have a vested interest if there is a postive outcome of my involvement. In the last 60 years or so, unfortunately Pakistani military wallas` involvement did not provide a postive outcome of their involvement. In my opinion, postive outcome includes freedom of expression and people`s self rule.

If it did, then trust me, at least I would not be away from my homeland. Or for that matter, leadership of the three largest political parties would not be outside Pakistan. It is a total disgrace when you consider that we the people of Pakistan have been taken hostage, due to the shananigans of our leaders. Be it the military, or the politicians, or the mullahs.

Your thoughts.. [People, incorrectly, assume these vested intersts to be politics. When, infact, it is the industry. The military doesn`t gain much from political power. It can easily control that from the background.] are correct. So?

How can you suggest that [i..e the military, itself, is not a lucrative profession. One lives hand to mouth.]? What level? Captains, don`t make enough? Compared to what?

[However, the interests of the military in the civilian sector, available to relatively senior officers are very lucrative.......] So? these guys should be fired at a faster pace, I suppose!

[This is a lack of vision, which is common all over the world.] This statement itself is illogical.

Military wallas are not supposed to have any vision. Their only mission is to defend their country. And this is not a vision. It is their MISSION.

[The main problem, thus, is lack of vision. And getting the military out of business.] No your absolutely incorrect regarding their vision. However, I do agree with you on getting the military wallas out of private business.

[Frankly speaking, I think most Pakistani politicians are useless. And I have no issues with someone like Musharraf running things, until better options than Benazir etc. appear on the scene.] How can people`s rule flourish with this logic?

Who decides better options? You!

[However, Pakistani businessmen and quite competent. As is the Pakistani private sector, in my opinion.] Of course they have to be. But,you opined that the military wallas think that they can build better roads etc. and of course, they have guns.

[So the military needs to get out of that.] And they must remain out of the private sector.

[Once the military is out of that, it will become easy to downsize it, as people will, themselves, leave and go into the private sector, as computer scientists and security gaurds etc., provided the economy grows.]

Please do not hold your breath for the military wallas to get out anything. Because they won`t. There is too much in it for them.

Phew! That was real hard work, going thru your post and trying to untangle your logic for you.


Respectfully submitted,

Forwarding an email from a mailing list - poda_pakistan@yahoo.com

Need TENTS for earthquake victims

Dear Friends:

If you can, please buy a tent to donate for earthquake victims - you can buy them at:

www.overstock.com

You can buy a tent for as low as $ 66.00. This week the delivery fee is only $ 1.00. Please have them mail the tent to

PODA Earthquake Relief
111 East 7th Street
Apt. 67
New York, NY 10009
Ph: 212-477-1996

We are sending a cargo to Pakistan on Nov. Ist. (Pakistan airlines is not charging any cargo fees and these tents will reach Kashmiri families a day after arriving in Pakistan).

If you need a tax deductible receipt for it, we can send it to you from Teachers Without Borders.

Thank you very much for your timely help.
Sameena

Kulharee #121: ``They can’t even do their own job right, and you want them to take over civilian jobs as well?``

You need to read replies, before getting emotional. Otherwise you will continue to make a fool of yourself. Please re-read my reply. You will find that I stated exactly the opposite of what you are attributing to me. I was actually explaining to Behram how and why the Army should be downsized.......Following is what I stated:

``As for what to do with retired Generals and other officers. No one should be allowed to go from one govt. job to another. Going from PAF to PIA or Army to Foreign services etc. should be banned. Once you retire, you should have to look for a job on your own.``

Would it be too much to ask you for an apology for your childish comments.......

rsridhar...
... the middle aged doctor has a right to behave the way he does most of the times...it is called catenkerous...he loves to hate...be it north indians, bangalees, pakistanis, arabs, americans, blacks or women...coz his wife left him in this old age to fend for himself....and that people is a strong reason for his behaviour...carry on doc...;)

What did I miss here?

Oh, usual, Indi-Paki bashing, not much then.....

How about if we trade Kashmir with Lahore Dvision?
I mean it is a fair solution that was discussed in 1947. We give Kashmir to Pakistan and they give us Lahore S Div.

Now let me hear what is wrong with this idea.

Howard and Robin: I will take my answer off-line....

Pakistan abuses Gilgit residents.

New Delhi, October 25: India on Tuesday expressed concern over the reported action by Pakistani forces against local people in Gilgit in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and asked Islamabad to observe international human rights standards there.

External Affairs Ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna said India was keeping the situation under `close watch`.
``We have noted with concern reports in Pakistani media about curfew being imposed in Gilgit and action being taken against people in that region,`` Sarna said in reply to a question.
He said, ``Gilgit and Baltistan areas of Jammu and Kashmir have a history of sectarian conflict and severe measures have been taken against legitimate protests and demonstrations``.
The spokesman hoped that ``Pakistani forces will act with utmost restraint and observe international human rights standards``.
According to Pakistani media reports, Gilgit has been under curfew for last several days and a number of people have been killed there.

Re: # 120

Romair, once a Fauji, always a fauji. Did they teach you about word limit in the Army? Every reply of yours is a 10 page tribute to fuking army. Here, let me summarize in one word what I feel: Army sucks. They can’t even do their own job right, and you want them to take over civilian jobs as well? Are you for real? Pakistanis are not Rangroots, they are humans. If the stupid and moronic Army didn’t suck our collective resources dry, we could’ve been a power to reckon with. These pigs need to be lined up and slaughtered on GT Road.

Behram1 #:``The question then becomes - how should they handle the higher officers of the armed forces? Will they be satisfied with being a low paid police officer? I doubt it.

I certainly do not agree with the present situation that all the retired (or retarded, whatever the case might be) Generals somehow become the head honcho of Pakistan`s various infrastructure.``

Downsizing or rightsizing the military is not that hard, from an execution point of view. It is very difficult from a will-power point of view. The downsizing can be done over ten years, or so. Do keep in mind that below the General ranks, the military is a very low-paying profession. Anyone who gets an option in the civil services and the private enterprise, leaves immediately. So as the economy grows, the individuals in the military will, themselves, voluntarily leave. That is not a problem.........

However, much like every other group in Pakistan (including all of us elitist Chowk crowd), the military has vested interests in Pakistan. People, incorrectly, assume these vested intersts to be politics. When, infact, it is the industry. The military doesn`t gain much from political power. It can easily control that from the background.

The military is, however, the biggest industrial entity in Pakistan, now. Fauji Foundation is the biggest business in Pakistan, today. In addition, the military controls various civil services. A person who retires from the military, can go into PIA, then into some other govt. service.

There is a whole network that supports the above, with very close connections with each other. You will rarely see any retired military officer, go into private enterprise. They will all go into some other govt. service. Or into real estate, based on Defence Housing societies etc.

This is the first network that is difficult to break. For example, if I am getting a job in PIA, will I ever support the downsizing of PIA, if it results in my losing my job opportunity.......i..e the military, itself, is not a lucrative profession. One lives hand to mouth. However, the interests of the military in the civilian sector, available to relatively senior officers are very lucrative.......

Secondly, most of the well-meaning individuals in the military who are ready to make changes - I would put Musharraf in this category - genuinely feel that Pakistan needs a large military. They don`t want to rely on nukes only for deterence. They actually feel that the military is the best way to build roads, run companies etc. Not because of corruption, but because they sincerely believe that.

This is a lack of vision, which is common all over the world. When I was in the military, I used to think the same way. I used to think a General could do a much better job than any civlian. In case of Pakistan, since the military has so much power, it can actually execute in that direction, and appoint Generals all over the place........

The main problem, thus, is lack of vision. And getting the military out of business. Frankly speaking, I think most Pakistani politicians are useless. And I have no issues with someone like Musharraf running things, until better options than Benazir etc. appear on the scene. However, Pakistani businessmen and quite competent. As is the Pakistani private sector, in my opinion. So the military needs to get out of that. Once the military is out of that, it will become easy to downsize it, as people will, themselves, leave and go into the private sector, as computer scientists and security gaurds etc., provided the economy grows.

As for what to do with retired Generals and other officers. No one should be allowed to go from one govt. job to another. Going from PAF to PIA or Army to Foreign services etc. should be banned. Once you retire, you should have to look for a job on your own. Like I had to do............

Re: # 113
[....Dear Yasser,
Love,
Behram]

What`s going on here....... get a room, you two - keep chowk clean .....

Re: # 114

Behram:

i use it just to be economical with words. I have too little time to write so wherever possible i try to be succint. Believe me, i don`t hold any malaise wrt it. I know that it is a derogatory term in u.k. but using it to poke fun at others is not my class. i don`t think any other indians would use that word to ridicule either, last i have not come across. so don`t worry i mean no harm.

as salim was saying the other day pakistanis are trying to claim it, because pak means pure in urdu.

rsridhar...

Once again I am no Gandhian who would have his ``toy`` (in most societies a car is not a toy but maybe Indians are extra extra rich) confiscated... nor would I give up anything I bought with my hard earned money... Thanks for asking.

Now... I will appeal to chowk staff again to ban you for your abuse against Behram.