Scream

Romair #60

{{I think the int`l community will come in with more money. $5 billion is not much for them. Pakistan should, hopefully, be able to get some loan write-offs, or loan payment delays.}}

Pakistan was going to plonk down $3 billion for 80 late-model F-16s. They’ve also been talking of aquiring Swedish Erieye AWACS aircraft – the better part of another billion. They don’t need those expensive toys since their defense has become impregnable thanks to indigenous nuclear-tipped missiles. You said $5 billion, didn’t you? We’re already up to almost $4 billion. You can generate the remainder of the resources internally.

So there’s no need to go around importuning the international community for $5 billion in quake aid, and no need for more Mirpuris to blow themselves up in London tube stations if the baksheesh isn’t forthcoming.

Kashmiris are fodder to the cannons in the ruling circles whereever they go.

Wheather it is Mughals converting people like Romairs(most likely Brahmin origin) to Islam or Mr Sapru AKA Mohammad Iqbal. Then Dogra Raja fighting over it. Then India, that does not know how to resolve the problem by not becoming like What Pakistan did to Sikhs/Hindus in Kashmir.

Meanwhile, Pakistani Kashmir has been Pakistanised, in term sof Language and culture, it will be another extension of Punjab.

How is that different from; when Hari Singh Nalwa ruled over Kashmir, it was still a province of Punjab. In fact, Pakistan should thank Sikhs for making NWFP and Kashmir as part of what is now Pakistan.

Ijaz_gul #51: Good poinits. I agree with Soysauce that 5 billion ruppees = $83 million...

In the end, it is the economy of Pakistan, which will need to support this effort. So it is important that the economy keeps growing. I think the int`l community will come in with more money. $5 billion is not much for them. Pakistan should, hopefully, be able to get some loan write-offs, or loan payment delays........

Most of all, this is an opportunity for the Pakistan govt. to re-allocate its budget. Pakistan has frozen its defence budget, at around $3 billion, for a few years. But now it needs to reduce it, regardless of what is going on in the region, and regardless of any increases in other countries` military budget. Pakistan main deterence in, now, nuclear. It needs to downsize conventional purchases, for ten years or more. Also, it should move its defence budgets towards export-oreinted manufacturing of military hardware.

Most of all, it needs to downsize its military, from 600k to around 250k - combined air force, army and navy. And utilize the rest of the budget for infrastructure development, and social services. In one day, Pakistan, two days ago, raised its education budget from 2.7% to 4% of the national budget. That is a 35% increase, in one day!! However, more needs to be done........

This will be the real test for Musharraf. I think he has done well during the tragedy. I think he will do well during the rebuilding also. But will he have the vision, to use this tragedy to carry out massive social reorientation. Lets see. My guess is maybe not. The military-industrial-civil services complex in Pakistan is too well-entrenched to be broken up. Moreso than in most countries. If Musharraf does do that, he will have done more for Pakistan, than anyone in the past 50 years........

At the same time, I think this tragedy has laid to rest any claims about Pakistanis not caring for each other, or not being united. Or about Pakistan being a failed state. Even the extremely cynical Pakistani English press has come around. I think the outside world is in a state of shock in seeing how the Pakistanis reacted. I haven`t seen anything like that anywhere in the world. No one from Houston rushed to New Orleans after Katrina. Yet thousands of Pakistanis, of all ethnicities and religions, rushed into the aftershocks of this earthquake, which occured in an area, most of which, officially, isn`t even a part of Pakistan and has zero political influence!!

This reaction, alone has started changing Pakistan`s and Pakistani public`s perception in the world. In addition, the Pakistani fauji jawan is now as popular as he has ever been since 65. People are seeing, first hand, what I have seen for ten years, as far as dedication of the average Pakistani soldier goes.

That which does not kill me, only makes me stronger, is a good saying. Cities have been torn down and built up again, and torn down again. These cities will be re-built. This, I am sure of. Now, is there leadeship available, which can make big decisions, with impact, in the whole society, outside this earthquake. Musharraf is a well-meaning patriotic person. But does he have the vision?

Re: # 60

Dear Romair:

You want a reduction in the armed forces of approximately 58.3%.
[Most of all, it needs to downsize its military, from 600k to around 250k - combined air force, army and navy.] And what are these 350,000 or so going to do in the Pakistani economy. I have no idea as to what the current unemployment rate in Pakistan is? Do you know the current unemployment rate in Pakistan?

[But will he have the vision, to use this tragedy to carry out massive social reorientation. Lets see. My guess is maybe not.] Musharraf might have the vision, but can he implement it? And the answer is still out there.

Respectfully submitted,

Godot #36

``.....in western capitals that will become even more attractive targets for terrorists who believe Kashmiri Muslims were failed in their hour of need by a wealthy and heartless west....``

What a logic! why will governments that spend more money in F-16s rather than basic infrastructure not be a more attractive target?
Governments will not accept readily available help and than beg for `white man`s` help - why are they not more attractive targets?

veeresh: after reading your comments, i lost all respect for you. shame on you!

#51
I like your attitude - it`s the attitude of a practical person who wishes to accomplish something. Just a correction assuming you`re using the american notation: Rs. 5b = $83 m.

Vereesh #47: `` then ignore the other more pressing reasons for screaming in POK/Azad Kashmir? I mean, what were these ``screamers`` doing when the complete female gender, full civilisations and a variety of cultures were being wiped out``

Your sympathy for Azad Kashmiris is neither required, nor necessary. We are pretty happy with Pakistan.............There seems to be a great desire, in you, to speak for Kashmiris. Is it for the well-being? Why not let them speak for themselves.

As someone who has close ties to the place (apparently not as close as you), I cannot see any truth in your statement. Azad Kashmir would be nowhere, had it not been for Pakistan. Azad Kashmiris realize that. I would be working as a bus driver in Indian Kashmir had it not been for Pakistan. Or I would be fighting for independence in Srinagar. Or I would be dead......

I say all of this quite seriously. Pakistani Kashmir takes far more from Pakistan than it gives back, economically. At the same time, Kashmir and the areas that have been affected, have a child literacy rate of 75%. As for women, those in Azad Kashmir villages are amongst the most liberated in any village area that I have seen in Pakistan. My family village in Azad Kashmir has a girls college. Hard to find one in too many other villages in Pakistan........

I regularly look for Indian Muslims and specifically Indian Muslim Kashmiris in IT in USA. I have found a few Indian Muslims. But have yet to find a single Indian Muslim Kashmiri. Not one My own family, apprently, has more Muslim Kashmiris in IT than all of Indian Kashmir.

So rest assured, no one in Azad Kashmir has been wiped out, nor are they screaming against Pakistan. Now if you want to create that myth, it only exposes you. But it is not the truth. In fact, on occassion, I feel embarrased at some of the advantages Azad Kashmiris take, vis-a-vis affirmative action in Pakistan. Also, sometimes I feel embarrased at the amount of money expat Azad Kashmiris, from UK, spend on building huge houses in Mirpur etc., while expecting Pakistan to look after the infrastructure development in Kashmir.

If that doesn`t convince you, you may want to look at the crime statistics. Azad Kashmir is the most non-violent place in Pakistan. Perhaps in all of South Asia. It is orders of magnitude safer than the rest of Pakistan. Northern areas, barring the recent violence in Gligit, have been even safer................

It is sad to see you try to score politcal points, at the expense of this tragedy............But if you are bent upon scoring political points, please try to come up with some valid ones.......These are almost as incorrect as your chemist in Rawalpindi theory.........

Re: # 52, Romair/Ijaz et al, nobody is trying to score any points.

I am just stating ground level facts. And the facts are that:-

a) there is a fairly intensive mobilisation going on in India right now to accept the refugees that are likely to flow across the border/LOC in the next few weeks. The trickle is turning into a flow, with people landing up as ``Afghans`` into India already.

b) countries do not invade each other any more. Yes, Pakistan can hold the threat as a means of scaring and impressing its own population, but in this day and age, armies are not going to be used to march on to each other`s capitals and then take up residence there.

c) there is some sort of under-current of people who changed religions re-establishing family ties and reverting back to pre-conversion in 1947 family structures. It is important to note here that this is accompanied by some amount of tension on account of property issues, so expect the incumbents/occupiers to resist.

d) the rescue and post-disaster efforts are hampered by the simple fact that the Pakistani Government refuses to let a better prepared and experienced India provide assistance, apparently for the fear of the symbolism that Indians on POK soil would represent.

e) and here is the last one - even ordinary Indians including those from Jammu & Kashmir, Ladakh and others from the Indian end have been refused permission to enter POK to help. The devastated in POK are asking, is medical tourism from Pakistan to India restricted only to the people from the plains?

Shame on me? Look inside your own house first.

I am only here to point out that you have made a total mess of the house I vacated so that you could improve on it.

And then, you want to scream.

Sure, scream. But please scream for the larger picture.

Re: # 52
Mr Romair,
How many people in your village actually speak Kashmiri, or for that matter in Pakistani Kashmir?

I have`nt found any Kashmiri from Pakistan who can speak Kashmiri, Punjabi-Yes. Their parents could speak Kashmiri.

Re: # 52

Romair, what is this “Azad” Kashmir or IOK business? Why can’t it just be Kashmir? Do you know how stupid it sounds to outsiders referring to Kashmir as Azad or Makbooza? Take it from someone from Makbooza Punjab. And if you think that Pakistanis have more love for their Kashmiri brothers than they did for Bengalis, you my friend are sadly mistaken. Until you have your elementary school textbooks printed in Kashmiri language, have your own national anthem, your own democratic government, your own borders, calling it Azad is a bit of wishful thinking. From Pakistanis’ perspective, you are under Pakistan’s “control”. Don’t forget it. Thanks.

Pakistanis have themselves so far collected more than FIVE BILLION RUPEES in cash ie an equivalent of 833 Million $. This does not include the aid in medecines, food and basic nessecities of life dumped on the major road heads. There are over one hundred field hospitals with surgical units. The nation is galvanised manifested in north bound long lines of trucks from Hassanabdal and Murree. They come from every corner of Pakistan and from every segment of society. Just as a case in point, the entiore demolition works in Islamabad was done by the earth moving equipment of private contracters like SKB, HAKAAS and HASNAIN.

The measure of tragedy is perhaps still underestimated. The enitre world community owes to assist and not help. Specially those who call us allies must. If Indians wish to score a few brownies while representing a narrow segment, lets not be digressed and lets move on. There is plenty of work to do.

I am surprised at the mentality of umair khans on this board. They are begging for NATO planes. Will they ask NATO planes to also arrive without crew? Why not?

It appears that begging ``Goras`` for relief is ok. If neighbourstry to help than you will start putting conditions.

Romair saheb commented what will Indian soldiers do. India has one or largest pool of medical professionals in world. Indian army para-medics could have easily been para-dropped in remote areas. They are trained to walk long distances with all their medical supplies. How many life that could have saved? But it seems that Pakistan will allow its 100,000 Kashmiris to die rather than accepting help from India.

Gentlemen and ladies,

Who gives a s.... ? about breakup of pakistan etc. There are young children, women and men dying. Is chowk doing something to help these people ?

kidbeegorilla #43: ``why don`t you just come out and say ``real pakistanis not mohajirs``.``

I have no idea what you are talking about. What does my comment have to do with Muhajirs?

#24 Urstruly. that cartoon is positively sick. you think the citizens of USA and UK are that hard-hearted to laugh over Pakistan`s tragedy? I wonder how many of your own hard-earned tax-deductible dollars you have donated to charities in this ``alligator-tears`` way?

Ehsan Faramosh.