Scream
Umair A Khan October 23, 2005
#129 Posted by Romair on October 25, 2005 10:06:48 pm
Behram1 #127: I will try to answer you questions, one by one:
``do agree with you that the military wallas should not be given any other government job. But that is wishful thinking, and you know that.``
I am providing with the solution. Not with the means of achieving it. The only means for achieving it is for Musharraf to make decisions. Which, as I stated, he probably will not do, in this regard, to a great extent.........
``The rubbish that Pakistani military .....not be repeating their stupid thoughts or promotions.``
I could not understand this part of your question.....
``I have no idea what their pay scales are. Do you? Please let us know.``
The military pay scales are very low. Specifically for technically qualified people. A PAF pilot makes a small fraction of a PIA pilot. My friend with a Ph.D and ten years of experience, teaching in NUST, makes 1/8th of what he could make teaching at LUMS. I don`t recall the exact figures, but I made around Rs 9000/month or so (all benefits/allowances combined), as a Captain, ten twelve years ago. My friends outside with similar qualifications were making three times that.....
``I am sure that Pakistani military wallas do not get that kind of a generous retirement package, and they should not.``
The retirement package is quite good, in relation to the salary. Free medical for life. A pension. etc. I think the miltiary`s retirement costs are higher than the salary costs of the whole military, in the budget.......
`` will only have a vested interest if there is a postive outcome of my involvement``
Every group in Pakistan has huge vested interests. As do all of us on Chowk. We are the financial upper class of Pakistan. We are not very popular with the middle class of Pakistn, by the way. And as a group, we have done quite well in Pakistan`s corrupt system. It has served us well, in most cases. Some of us are feudals, some are sons of senior civil servants, military officers. Some are in PIA. Some have political contacts etc.....Some are abroad with foreign degrees........
``What level? Captains, don`t make enough? Compared to what?``
Everyone from Col and below, lives hand to mouth. Brigadiers and above live well. Generals live really well - serving or retired. There are about 150 total Generals in the combined three forces, at any one time. Also those who can leave the military and get good jobs - PIA, Foreign service etc. - live well also.....
``Military wallas are not supposed to have any vision. Their only mission is to defend their country. And this is not a vision. It is their MISSION.``
Yes, this is true. However, I was talking about vision to make these changes. Since it is the military that is running Pakistan. It would be the one which needs the vision. Which it doesn`t really have, due to reasons you mentioned.....
`` How can people`s rule flourish with this logic?....Who decides better options? You!``
I don`t know how. I am not providing logic, though. It is my personal opinion, as a citizen of Pakistan. An opinion that others may disagree with. But one that I have a right to have.....
``But,you opined that the military wallas think that they can build better roads etc. and of course, they have guns.``
Yes, this is what they think. Which is the core of the problem I am highlighting. Though this regime has changed this thinking, somewhat. But it still will not let go of Fauji Foundation, etc.
``So? these guys should be fired at a faster pace, I suppose!``
Not necessarily. They just should not be given civilian assets.....
``Please do not hold your breath for the military wallas to get out anything. Because they won`t. There is too much in it for them.``
I don`t think they will get out. As I said I am just giving the solution. Not a mechanism for the solution. As I also said, it will only happen if a major decision is taken by Musharraf. This was my whole point. Can he or will he take the decision, after this earthquake?
P.S. two things have happened, which point to the correct direction........
1. Education budget has been raised by 35%
2. F-16 deals is being cancelled or delayed
``do agree with you that the military wallas should not be given any other government job. But that is wishful thinking, and you know that.``
I am providing with the solution. Not with the means of achieving it. The only means for achieving it is for Musharraf to make decisions. Which, as I stated, he probably will not do, in this regard, to a great extent.........
``The rubbish that Pakistani military .....not be repeating their stupid thoughts or promotions.``
I could not understand this part of your question.....
``I have no idea what their pay scales are. Do you? Please let us know.``
The military pay scales are very low. Specifically for technically qualified people. A PAF pilot makes a small fraction of a PIA pilot. My friend with a Ph.D and ten years of experience, teaching in NUST, makes 1/8th of what he could make teaching at LUMS. I don`t recall the exact figures, but I made around Rs 9000/month or so (all benefits/allowances combined), as a Captain, ten twelve years ago. My friends outside with similar qualifications were making three times that.....
``I am sure that Pakistani military wallas do not get that kind of a generous retirement package, and they should not.``
The retirement package is quite good, in relation to the salary. Free medical for life. A pension. etc. I think the miltiary`s retirement costs are higher than the salary costs of the whole military, in the budget.......
`` will only have a vested interest if there is a postive outcome of my involvement``
Every group in Pakistan has huge vested interests. As do all of us on Chowk. We are the financial upper class of Pakistan. We are not very popular with the middle class of Pakistn, by the way. And as a group, we have done quite well in Pakistan`s corrupt system. It has served us well, in most cases. Some of us are feudals, some are sons of senior civil servants, military officers. Some are in PIA. Some have political contacts etc.....Some are abroad with foreign degrees........
``What level? Captains, don`t make enough? Compared to what?``
Everyone from Col and below, lives hand to mouth. Brigadiers and above live well. Generals live really well - serving or retired. There are about 150 total Generals in the combined three forces, at any one time. Also those who can leave the military and get good jobs - PIA, Foreign service etc. - live well also.....
``Military wallas are not supposed to have any vision. Their only mission is to defend their country. And this is not a vision. It is their MISSION.``
Yes, this is true. However, I was talking about vision to make these changes. Since it is the military that is running Pakistan. It would be the one which needs the vision. Which it doesn`t really have, due to reasons you mentioned.....
`` How can people`s rule flourish with this logic?....Who decides better options? You!``
I don`t know how. I am not providing logic, though. It is my personal opinion, as a citizen of Pakistan. An opinion that others may disagree with. But one that I have a right to have.....
``But,you opined that the military wallas think that they can build better roads etc. and of course, they have guns.``
Yes, this is what they think. Which is the core of the problem I am highlighting. Though this regime has changed this thinking, somewhat. But it still will not let go of Fauji Foundation, etc.
``So? these guys should be fired at a faster pace, I suppose!``
Not necessarily. They just should not be given civilian assets.....
``Please do not hold your breath for the military wallas to get out anything. Because they won`t. There is too much in it for them.``
I don`t think they will get out. As I said I am just giving the solution. Not a mechanism for the solution. As I also said, it will only happen if a major decision is taken by Musharraf. This was my whole point. Can he or will he take the decision, after this earthquake?
P.S. two things have happened, which point to the correct direction........
1. Education budget has been raised by 35%
2. F-16 deals is being cancelled or delayed
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#130 Posted by Behram1 on October 25, 2005 10:37:39 pm
Re: # 128
Dear Beej:
Once again, you were awesome. Your post refreshes Mark Anthony`s speach at Ceasar`s death. Vow! Thank you for such praise...(is it?) Your prose about my style is humbling.
No, butter. Pure admiration and respect for your writing skills. I wish I can write like you. Your thoughts are powerful. Your words are crisp and clear. Your message is emphatic.
And please Beej, rest assured that I will have no malice towards you, when you tear me apart, if that is what your mind desires. Because I know your heart is the right authentic heart. Because in the end, nevertheless, I shall remain honored. For it was none other than the best writer at this chowk.
Respectfully submitted,
Behram B. Atashband
#131 Posted by beem7 on October 25, 2005 10:57:40 pm
forgot sake is it time to discuss military is pakistan!!!
i felt like the SCREAM Umair talked about is already dead.
thanx to YOU ppl
i felt like the SCREAM Umair talked about is already dead.
thanx to YOU ppl
#132 Posted by Behram1 on October 25, 2005 11:41:50 pm
Re: # 129
Dear Romair:
Thank you for a response clarifying your posts.
{``The rubbish that Pakistani military .....not be repeating their stupid thoughts or promotions.``}
[I could not understand this part of your question..... ] OK, let me explain it this way.
When you write about how things are at hand, it comes across that you are accepting those conditions. And then suddenly you throw an opinion at the end. This style has created most of the confusion.
[We are the financial upper class of Pakistan.] You might be, but I am not. And almost all my Parsee friends who are in the west are not. We might be intellectually from upper class of Pakistan, but financially we are not.
[Some have political contacts etc.....Some are abroad with foreign degrees........] Now how do you correlate having foreign degrees with the corrupt Pakistani system? Having political contacts is what democracy is all about. Civic mindedness is a virtue. Getting involved in enlightening the masses. How does having political contacts become corruption? Here your logic becomes a little fuzzy.
[I don`t know how. ] I think that you do. Once you start listening to your heart, you will know right from wrong. Since early days, unfortunately, Pakistan had unscrupoulus leaders. And this has been imbedded in our society. That is why there will always remain a desire for everyone to get out of Pakistan.
As a general rule, intellectuals have be shuned in Pakistan. These days thanks to the US, we are seeing some freedom of press. If we can only work with Amnesty group and monitor the political freedom we will be moving in the right direction.
[1. Education budget has been raised by 35%] This is factually true. As I read in Dawn`s editorial, this was reduced in the early years of the Musharraf administartion (year 2000?) and brought back to its original level or a little bit higher. BFD>
[2. F-16 deals is being cancelled or delayed] Yes, I was pleasantly surprised at this news, as well.
Romair, Pakistan`s main problem is not these nuances. The government`s challenge is that it is not authentic in its behavior towards its own citizens. It`s biggest challenge has always been law and order. I gaurantee you that PM Shaukat Aziz and his administartion will continue to remain a failure, until they address the law and order situation. In FDI, the west will not invest a single dime. Pakistan should not worry about large MNC to invest in Pakistan. It can promote and advertise in smaller newspapers across the US, and stop spending money in the NY Times. Shaukat Aziz thinks that his friendship with Paul Wolfowitz wll bring Pakistan something is absolutely ludicrous. His friendship with Paul might bring an employement for his won self, but nothing for Pakistan. So what? Shoaib Ahmad used to be in the World Bank.
There are thousands and thousands of smaller companies in the western world that if proper country marketing is done could end up investing inside Pakistan. But of course the law and order situation must be absolute. The Judiciary should then be made completely independent.
Tell me where and how often do you discuss intellectually with Pakistanis in your area where you live. I hardly have a chance to discuss any with my Pakistani friends. Most of them are just stuck in their own family circles. And there is no vision (heck there is no mission, either). Most Pakistanis live with Getho mentality.
Respectfully submitted,
#133 Posted by ijaz_gul on October 26, 2005 2:18:17 am
Thanx Vareesh Romair and Behram for sidetracking the discussion. Are we all the fly by night type drawing room reformists?
``The smallest of actions is always better than the noblest of intentions.`` Robin Sharma
Thanx Zaharaj.
``The smallest of actions is always better than the noblest of intentions.`` Robin Sharma
Thanx Zaharaj.
#134 Posted by veeresh on October 26, 2005 2:42:45 am
Re: # 133, Ijaz, I am not side-tracking the real issue, which, to my mind relevant to this article is:-
a) How to make a scream effective?
b) How to do something over and above the scream?
c) How does the ground reality impact what will happen to pakistan looking forward.
There are related issues of refugees flooding into India (which is the loudest scream possible that any country can not afford to ignore) and my queries from some chowkies like Romair and Manto on what they are doing (or not).
This Jinnah-Gandhi stuff that Yasser has brought up, I agree, has nothing to do with the subject.
a) How to make a scream effective?
b) How to do something over and above the scream?
c) How does the ground reality impact what will happen to pakistan looking forward.
There are related issues of refugees flooding into India (which is the loudest scream possible that any country can not afford to ignore) and my queries from some chowkies like Romair and Manto on what they are doing (or not).
This Jinnah-Gandhi stuff that Yasser has brought up, I agree, has nothing to do with the subject.
#135 Posted by shankar on October 26, 2005 5:51:10 am
Re: # 126
ZahraJ,
Is this the same charity that Mr Ijaz Gul talked about on the Chowk link (re buying bottles of potable water?) So many different charities are springing up, my head is spinning...Time is running out for those people; folks!
ZahraJ,
Is this the same charity that Mr Ijaz Gul talked about on the Chowk link (re buying bottles of potable water?) So many different charities are springing up, my head is spinning...Time is running out for those people; folks!
#136 Posted by shankar on October 26, 2005 6:01:17 am
Re: # 133
Mr Gul,
Do you have an extra ticket on your relief aircraft?
May I humbly recommend you give it to the exalted Field Marshall on Chowk, who seems to have nothing better to do that give silly editorials & look at gift horses in the mouth.
He is well trained & well travelled. I`ll have you know that the only expertise he doesnt possess is living with penguins in Antartica. Maybe those poor victims` sorrow will be lightened by his Polyannish attitude to life.
Maybe he could regale us with his incredible insight from a tent in Muzaffarbad, as he freezes his butt off with his bretheren. For company, he ought to take ol` man bawa-ji to pour cold water over him, when his mind goes out of this galaxy.
Mr Gul,
Do you have an extra ticket on your relief aircraft?
May I humbly recommend you give it to the exalted Field Marshall on Chowk, who seems to have nothing better to do that give silly editorials & look at gift horses in the mouth.
He is well trained & well travelled. I`ll have you know that the only expertise he doesnt possess is living with penguins in Antartica. Maybe those poor victims` sorrow will be lightened by his Polyannish attitude to life.
Maybe he could regale us with his incredible insight from a tent in Muzaffarbad, as he freezes his butt off with his bretheren. For company, he ought to take ol` man bawa-ji to pour cold water over him, when his mind goes out of this galaxy.
#137 Posted by shankar on October 26, 2005 6:19:18 am
Re: # 127
My dear bawa-ji,
{{Thank you for a response. I will try to untangle your logic gracefully so please have patience with me.}}
Good LUCK!!!
Man!!...joyneee!!!!....joyneee!!!!..youre a bakra for trying to unravel grideon knots!!:)))
All you`ve done is tee off poor Dr shridhar!
{{Phew! That was real hard work, going thru your post and trying to untangle your logic for you.}}
You finally figured it out, eh?....
all by your lonesome; no less!
Keep it up, pal & even the poor vultures wont eat your pickled brain after you depart this life....
Audaciously submitted,
shankar
My dear bawa-ji,
{{Thank you for a response. I will try to untangle your logic gracefully so please have patience with me.}}
Good LUCK!!!
Man!!...joyneee!!!!....joyneee!!!!..youre a bakra for trying to unravel grideon knots!!:)))
All you`ve done is tee off poor Dr shridhar!
{{Phew! That was real hard work, going thru your post and trying to untangle your logic for you.}}
You finally figured it out, eh?....
all by your lonesome; no less!
Keep it up, pal & even the poor vultures wont eat your pickled brain after you depart this life....
Audaciously submitted,
shankar
#138 Posted by Behram1 on October 26, 2005 6:49:02 am
Re: # 137
My dear shankar:
Sou thayou! Em kem vaaht karoach? However, you are absolutely right...[Keep it up, pal & even the poor vultures wont eat your pickled brain after you depart this life....] there will be nothing left for the poor vultures.
Thanks for making me laugh.
Respectfully submitted,
#139 Posted by jang on October 26, 2005 7:17:31 am
OXFAM joins the scream
http://www.oxfam.org/eng/pr051026_southasia_appeal.htm
Despite Kofi Annan’s urgent call for more aid last week, the UN appeal remains only 19% funded and if pledges are included (which are often not delivered) this only brings the total to 30%. ($90 million has been pledged out of the $312 million the UN requested).
Only four countries (Sweden, Luxembourg, Netherlands and Denmark) have so far given more than their fair share to the appeal.
Governments that have given less than one fifth of their fair share include, Japan (17%), Germany (14%), the US (9%) and Italy (7%).
Seven rich country governments have so far given nothing at all to the UN appeal – Belgium, France, Austria, Finland, Greece, Portugal and Spain. By contrast much poorer countries such as Poland and Chile have given contributions to the appeal.
http://www.oxfam.org/eng/pr051026_southasia_appeal.htm
Despite Kofi Annan’s urgent call for more aid last week, the UN appeal remains only 19% funded and if pledges are included (which are often not delivered) this only brings the total to 30%. ($90 million has been pledged out of the $312 million the UN requested).
Only four countries (Sweden, Luxembourg, Netherlands and Denmark) have so far given more than their fair share to the appeal.
Governments that have given less than one fifth of their fair share include, Japan (17%), Germany (14%), the US (9%) and Italy (7%).
Seven rich country governments have so far given nothing at all to the UN appeal – Belgium, France, Austria, Finland, Greece, Portugal and Spain. By contrast much poorer countries such as Poland and Chile have given contributions to the appeal.
#140 Posted by ijaz_gul on October 26, 2005 7:30:25 am
#134 Vareesh,
Anwers to your querries will be found in my upcoming article on Front Page, ``PAKISTAN ROCKED``. I think the title SCREAM irks you more than anything else, but I am sure you know what it means.
1. A catastrophe of this magnitude per se becomes an international concern. International organisations of which most countries are members are supposed to respond. Your slanted comments in no way assist or obstruct the process. This is Pakistan not yelling for help but asking for assistance for which it has a right under the international code.
2. Not ask questions and pray. Thats the least.
3. Ground realities are dilated in my essay.
#135 Shankar,
I am not using recycled bottles. These are brand new packaged in my own mineral water plant in Rawalpindi. To clarify I have no link with any charity nor anyone including chowkies responded in any manner with donations. Being a Pakistani and a human, I owe it to my country and its people.
Cheerios
Anwers to your querries will be found in my upcoming article on Front Page, ``PAKISTAN ROCKED``. I think the title SCREAM irks you more than anything else, but I am sure you know what it means.
1. A catastrophe of this magnitude per se becomes an international concern. International organisations of which most countries are members are supposed to respond. Your slanted comments in no way assist or obstruct the process. This is Pakistan not yelling for help but asking for assistance for which it has a right under the international code.
2. Not ask questions and pray. Thats the least.
3. Ground realities are dilated in my essay.
#135 Shankar,
I am not using recycled bottles. These are brand new packaged in my own mineral water plant in Rawalpindi. To clarify I have no link with any charity nor anyone including chowkies responded in any manner with donations. Being a Pakistani and a human, I owe it to my country and its people.
Cheerios
#141 Posted by Netizen on October 26, 2005 7:41:11 am
Re: # 137
shankar:
``Man!!...joyneee!!!!....joyneee!!!!..``
LOL ... reminded me of parsis of mumbai....
shankar:
``Man!!...joyneee!!!!....joyneee!!!!..``
LOL ... reminded me of parsis of mumbai....
#142 Posted by delhiwala on October 26, 2005 7:43:22 am
Re: # 129
A Pakistani Capt only makes 9000 Pakistani ruppees. Wow.....
Dude, join Indian Army, you will about twice that and free ration on top.
A Pakistani Capt only makes 9000 Pakistani ruppees. Wow.....
Dude, join Indian Army, you will about twice that and free ration on top.
#143 Posted by shankar on October 26, 2005 8:09:12 am
Re: # 140
{{am not using recycled bottles. These are brand new packaged in my own mineral water plant in Rawalpindi. To clarify I have no link with any charity nor anyone including chowkies responded in any manner with donations. Being a Pakistani and a human, I owe it to my country and its people. }}
I`m afraid you misunderstand me, sir. My comment to you wasnt supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. I`d like to send a check to a respectable charity. Buying tents & sending bottled water seems like the right thing to do. Now, is this the same charity that ZahraJ is talking about? I`d like to send a check in US dollars....to somebody who puts his money where is mouth is...now, who do I send it to?
Khuda Hafiz
{{am not using recycled bottles. These are brand new packaged in my own mineral water plant in Rawalpindi. To clarify I have no link with any charity nor anyone including chowkies responded in any manner with donations. Being a Pakistani and a human, I owe it to my country and its people. }}
I`m afraid you misunderstand me, sir. My comment to you wasnt supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. I`d like to send a check to a respectable charity. Buying tents & sending bottled water seems like the right thing to do. Now, is this the same charity that ZahraJ is talking about? I`d like to send a check in US dollars....to somebody who puts his money where is mouth is...now, who do I send it to?
Khuda Hafiz
#144 Posted by ijaz_gul on October 26, 2005 8:29:30 am
143# Shankar,
Got your email and replied alongwith two pics.
Hands that help are better than hands that pray.
I feel obliged.
Cheerios
Got your email and replied alongwith two pics.
Hands that help are better than hands that pray.
I feel obliged.
Cheerios
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