Selective Sympathy

Let us see if the PIPFD slime - iincluding Ramdas and his Paki son-in-law
have anything to say on the following:

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http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2005-daily/04-11-2005/metro/k3.htm

No news of three Hindu girls kidnapped from Punjab colony

Parents say that the government has to take action

By Aroosa Masroor Khan

KARACHI: After the recent earthquake, most Hindu families decided to celebrate Diwali with simplicity this year but Sanao Amra’s family had different reasons for observing the occasion with solemnity. Three of his daughters were kidnapped from Punjab Colony, Gizri where they reside earlier this month. The family still does not know where they are hope that they are safe and will eventually be allowed to rejoin their family.

On 18th October when Sanao Amra’s wife, Champa, returned home from work, her daughters were nowhere to be found. Unable to understand what had exactly happened behind her back, she inquired about their whereabouts from her neighbours. The neighbours initially said they had not seen the girls, but later told Champa that the elder daughters Reena, 21 and Usha, 19, were seen rushing out of home towards their younger sister Reema’s school from where perhaps all the sisters were kidnapped.

Sanao Amra searched for his daughters for 2-3 days after which he went to the police. They turned down his pleas for help by saying that the government had not provided them with proper means of investigation and therefore there was not much they could do. The refusal by the police did not leave much for the family to hope. Then a few days later, one of the neighbours handed some documents to Sanao, which they said that they had received through courier. The documents stated that their daughters had embraced Islam and was signed by them too.

Suspecting three boys from his neighbourhood, Sanao Amra lodged an FIR against them after which they were promptly arrested by the police. But the court granted them bail because they were underaged for legal punishment. The boys are now free but the whereabouts of the sisters are unknown.

One of the boys, Abid, had informed the girls’ family that the girls had embraced Islam a year ago, but the father did not believe him. ``No sane person would ever fall for that. My daughters were kidnapped on the 18th and the documents state that they accepted Islam on that day itself, if at all.`` He said that he had been with his daughters for years and was very well aware of their thoughts and actions. He said they showed no sign of an inclination towards Islam before this, which is why he is sure they were being pressurized. ``I don’t know what they made my daughters do and how they convinced them to sign those papers but I am sure it was done without their wilful consent,`` said the father.

His wife, Champa, shared his views in this regard. She was expressionless when asked about her daughters. She said: ``It has been fifteen days now and I’m still hoping my daughters will return...even if they have embraced Islam the kidnappers should leave them back or at least bring them to us once instead of hiding away like cowards. I would want to see me daughters accept the fact in front of me.``

She said that they had done everything to spread the news of the daughters’ kidnappings, but no response had come so far. ``The kidnappers haven’t contacted us either, I have been waiting near the phone just in case my daughters call,`` disclosed the mother. They were happy girls content with their lives. The elder daughters Reena and Usha were also engaged to be married soon.

Sanao added that kidnapping Hindus and making them embrace Islam is not a new practice for their minority. ``This has been happening for years, it’s just that we belong to a suppressed class and are scared of involving the police and the media which is why such cases weren’t highlighted before. This is the first time anybody from my community has taken this step and I am not going to withdraw the case, but I can nothing by myself until I have the police or some government official to help me investigate.``

His health has been deteriorating as a result of this incident too. The remaining members of the family, which include a young daughter and son, have not eaten well for the past fifteen days. They are waiting all day with the hope of receiving some news about the whereabouts of their daughters. Another fear that is haunting the mother is that her daughters could have been killed, but she chooses to remain optimistic. ``I still have faith in God,`` she said.

The father also said that it was ironical that in this holy month of Ramazan, when Muslims generally become God-fearing, there are still some people who are diverted from the real practice of Islam. ``I have studied Islam too and really respect the religion for what it preaches. It certainly does not talk about forceful acceptance into the religion. This is no way to persuade...I am surprised at the minimal attention the govt is giving to this issue.``

One of the cousins of the girls, Raju, added that they have always considered Pakistan as their own country and the kind of discrimination their community has been experiencing now never happened before. The Hindus in Karachi are not recent settlers, they were a part of Pakistan even before partition. Raju said: ``We feel now we are not wanted here and can no longer term ourselves as Pakistanis. Leaving the religious differences aside, we are the citizens of this country first then why are we being treated as outcasts?``

He said the negligence of the government in proceeding with the case any further reveals that they are themselves involved in this. He mentioned that the police are trying to silence the family by telling them that the culprits, like in case of previous kidnappings, will not be caught this time either so they should not bother.

``How can they be so insensitive? Our community members even held a demonstration outside Karachi Press Club to condemn the kidnapping of my daughters but they turned a deaf ear to our call. I have been watching news on T.V. as well, but not a single channel has talked about my daughters even once,`` said the father.

He pleaded with the government to take note of the situation and consider the rights of the minorities that were promised when the country came into existence decades ago. The case of the three kidnapped Hindu girls once again challenges the concept of enlightened moderation that the government has been propagating for some years now.

Kaalchakra wrote: One doesn`t hear much of it in Pakistani media, so it may not be a major problem``

Are you on dope ? you think kidnapping and forcible conversion is not a big issue ?
If you believe that then you have the IQ of a slug.

Do you know how many Hindus flee into India given the first chance ?
Recently hundreds of Pakistani Hindus who had come legally and overstayed were
given Indian citizenship in Gujarat and Rajasthan.
In Kerala - there are muslims who went to Pakistan and then came back and now
requesting that they be given back their Indian citizenship !!!
Orwellian world indeed.

The PIPFD sc*umbags pontificate their equal-equal mantra. Of course these
PIPFD nutcases will be given some ``human-rights`` or ``peace`` prize sponsored
by Western interests. Then the PIPFD morons will jump up and down and demonize
India even more.

Al Bundy, HP

There does seem to be some issue of abduction of minority girls, their forced conversions, and harassments of girls` parents with the help of Islamic laws. Recently one of the Daily Times` editorials had raised the concern with regard to Christian girls too.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-9-2005_pg3_1

One doesn`t hear much of it in Pakistani media, so it may not be a major problem. It will certainly be less acute in some geographical areas and for some social classes than in other places and for other social classes.

Al_Bundy,

Islam is a religion of peace.

Islam only seeks to eliminate kufr from the world.

That is why in Indonesia three Christian schoolgirls were beheaded.

It is called the first step toward elimination of kufr in the world.

#40 by Al_Bundy

Okay I take my words back!

Idid not see this news reported anywhere else.

I doubt that Hindus are leaving Pakistan. It is there country too. They would have left a long time ago, if they were looking for Indian help.

Thanks.

RE- #39 by HP

HP saheb, please drive out all the Sindhi/Baluchi/Punjabi Hindus from Pakistan if you are so tired of them; we in India will gladly take them; in fact we need their business acumen to further grow our economy; we know you in Pakistan are so obsessed with the Purity of your Pure_land; May the moon-goddess of 5th century arabya, Al-Lah bless you

KARACHI: Kidnapping of Hindu girls condemned

http://dawn.com/2005/11/03/local13.htm

KARACHI, Nov 2: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has expressed its deep concern at the recent reported incidents of missing girls of the minority Hindu community.

An HRCP release issued here on Wednesday stated that according to newspaper reports 19 girls mostly from Punjab Colony were missing from their homes. Relatives of these young girls had reasons to believe that they had been kidnapped and being forced to change their religion, the press release added.

The HRCP strongly condemned this prevailing practice of kidnapping girls of the minority communities and their forcible conversions. It also condemned the government’s inaction on these issues as such practices were against constitutional provisions.

The commission urged the government to take immediate action on each reported case.—PPI

#38 by Al_Bundy on November 3, 2005 7:20am PT

I know lying is like a second nature to most Indians. Indian newspapers also follow this national pastime with as much glee as most Indians do.

Please look at this site, search the archives and news and tell me where is the press release that substantiates the lying machines that Indians follow day in and day out.

I would appreciate it if you would go thru this site and support the claim made in that `Gita`` like Indian rag you read and believe in so fervently. I could not find any info that you referred to, may be you can and point that to me.

Or if you can find a link on Google, which is more creditable than Gita from Kerala then please post that here too.

http://www.hrcp-web.org/

“the Dawn quoted the PHRC as saying in the release”

I could not find this press release that the gita referred to in your post. can you find it for me here?

http://www.dawn.com/2005/11/02/index.htm

RE- # 29

If a giant tree falls in the forest and no human hears the fall, does that mean the tree did not fall.

In the Pureland of Pakistan where only the Purest Muslims live, who practice the Most Peaceful religion on Earth, you under-report or don’t report news which damages the glorious “image” of “enlightened moderation”.

Below is a piece of news that “never happens” because it seldom gets reported.

Seems like the Pure-landers want to drive-out the handful of remaining Hindus left behind to make the land more Pure than before. May the half-moon God of ancient arabya, Al-Lah bless them in their divine mission.


Posted on 03 Nov 2005 # ANI

http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=46966

Kidnappings of Hindu girls reaches fever-pitch in Pak

Karachi: Pakistan Human Rights Commission (PHRC) has expressed deep concerns at the recent rise in the number of kidnappings of Hindu girls, especially in the Punjab province.

An HRCP release issued here yesterday stated that as many as 19 girls, mostly from Punjab, were missing from their homes.

Condemning the practice of kidnapping of Hindu girls and their forcible conversions, the Commission charged the Pakistan government of being incapable of handling this issue, and that such practice was against constitutional provisions of the country.

Relatives of these young girls had reasons to believe that they had been kidnapped and being forced to change their religion, the Dawn quoted the PHRC as saying in the release.

The Commission also urged the federal government to take immediate action on each reported kidnapping case of Hindu girls.

Joe (sic) Athialy - you spew venom at the Indian army and focus on Indian
Kashmir, but what about POK what about the ethnic cleansing and military rule there ?
After all you are ``Pakistan-India PFD`` right ?
Joe Athialy - you are beneath contempt.

That man Ramdas who made a living of the Indian taxpayer and was made into
an Admiral now has the gall to create equivalencies between India and Pakiland
just because his daughter is married to a a Paki.
These are slim*ebags of the worst order. To the PIPFD folks, honesty is anathema.

When PIPFD bums repeat the equal-equal mantra between India and Pakistan and
remain silent on the jihadi genociders - you are on the side of the Pakis. Let there
be no doubt abou that.

Ref scout #29

[chowk staff,

why did you filter out khamkhwa.`s innocent interact while this stupid post was put through:

``There are just 5 million Kashmiris and 1 million Indian soldiers. If each Indian soldier is given 5 bullets and told to pump them into the heads of 5 Kashmiri Islamic fundooos , sparing only the nubile fair complexioned ample bosomed Kashmiri chicks in the age group of 14-30 , the `Kashmir problem` can be solved oin 24 hours.

No sympathy for Islamic terrorists. Kill them all. Take their women.`` ]

Exactly how do you think you became a Muslim? Don`t tell me ``by birth``. Think what happened some 200-1000 years ago that caused you to be born a Muslim.

Then tell us why you find the above prescription wrong.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

PS. Yesterday, a thug set off a car bomb in Srinagar killing more than 10 persons.

Does this speed delivery of relief materials to the earthquake affected people?

#29, {``chowk staff,
why did you filter out khamkhwa.`s innocent interact while this stupid post was put through``}

If you are not on Chowk`s Innocence Qualification Board, it`s none of your business.

#32 no..not a new year for sikhs. only for trading community.

Don`t judge Indians just because they did not show up to dig the rubbles in Kashmir. Average India need not rush to Kashmir because Indian Army and Indian govt is doing a good job in provinding relief to EQ victims. There is govt functioning in Kashmir. The Same thing can`t said about Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. POK hardly has any civil administration in place. POK for the last 50 years was controlled by Army and Jihadis. The Army has completely failed so now Jihadis are running the place. There is no govt civil administration in POK. Thats why average pakistanis are running to Kashmir to provide help because they no there is no civil administration in place. This is why everybody says that Pakistan is a failed country. It is kept alive the dole outs from west. If West cuts off its support the country will collapse like Mangala tower.

Re: # 31

jang

it is a new year for sikhs too?

A wish of a peaceful and prosperous new year for all the Hindus, Jains, Sikhs of devastated areas of Kashmir while they dig themselves out with or without help.

Mr. Bird Brain Athialy,

Here is a recent report from Kashmir.

Why dont you go to Muridke and convince the people carrying out this ``work`` to stop? Why just spit venom on soldiers carrying out their duties? The same soldiers who rescued hundreds of civilians and rebulit roads when a corrupt state goverment is unable to provide anything??


http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-kashmir-blast.html?pagewanted=print

Suicide Car Bomber Kills Four in Indian Kashmir
By REUTERS
Filed at 3:30 a.m. ET

SRINAGAR (Reuters) - A suicide car bomber killed at least four people in an attack on a busy highway in Indian Kashmir on Wednesday hours before a new chief minister was due to be sworn in, police said.

Policemen and civilians removed body parts from the area where half a dozen vehicles and several houses were damaged in the blast which also wounded six people, most of them policemen.

Blood-stained parts of vehicles and shoes were strewn across the road near the site of the explosion in the Himalayan region`s main city, Srinagar, where violence continues despite a tentative peace between India and Pakistan, which have fought two wars over the state.

The police chief of Jammu and Kashmir state, Gopal Sharma, said a militant, two policemen and two civilians were killed in the powerful explosion.

``When a police party tried to stop the car bomber, he exploded the vehicle. We had definite information about it,`` Sharma said.

India has been on high alert since the weekend, when three coordinated blasts killed 59 people and injured about 200 in the worst militant attack on the nation`s capital.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf that the bombings were probably linked to foreign elements and demanded that Pakistan act against terrorism directed against India.

A Pakistan-based militant group, Jaish-e-Mohammed, called newspaper offices in Srinagar and claimed responsibility for Wednesday`s car bomb attack.

The attack near a security patrol came before a member of India`s ruling Congress party, Ghulam Nabi Azad, was due to take the oath as the state`s new chief minister for the next three years under a power-sharing agreement with a regional party.

Security was tight in Srinagar for Azad`s swearing-in. Azad, 56, who was federal urban development and parliamentary affairs minister, has spent nearly his entire political career outside his home state, building his career in party backrooms.

He lacks a popular base in the troubled Himalayan state and has never won an election there.

chowk staff,

why did you filter out khamkhwa.`s innocent interact while this stupid post was put through:

``There are just 5 million Kashmiris and 1 million Indian soldiers. If each Indian soldier is given 5 bullets and told to pump them into the heads of 5 Kashmiri Islamic fundooos , sparing only the nubile fair complexioned ample bosomed Kashmiri chicks in the age group of 14-30 , the `Kashmir problem` can be solved oin 24 hours.

No sympathy for Islamic terrorists. Kill them all. Take their women.``

What wrong has happened in Kashmir that hasn`t already happened in the rest of India?

Mismanagement? That happens all the time in all the states. Heck, even Karnataka which is home to India`s silicon valley, is now in the midst of an ugly wrangle between IT companies and Deve Gowda.

Corruption? Laloo gobbled up crores of rupees meant to purchase fodder for cattle. Mayawati has enriched herself as if there is no tomorrow. Chandrababu Naidu is said to have made crores through land deals. Deve Gowda has amassed crores by grabbing land.

Alienation? Look at how the state of TN has alienated the upper castes by virtually blocking their chances of finding a seat in government colleges by reserving well over 80% of the seats for the ``backward castes``. Or how Biharis are virtual outcastes in the city of Mumbai. Or how Sikhs were alienated by the storming of the Golden Temple. Of course, there was a terrorist struggle there, but Sikhs today are at the helm of power in India.

Rigged elections? There isn`t a state in India that doesn`t have rigged elections. Booth capturingis an endemic phenomenon common throughout India.

Economic backwardness? Kashmiris have one of the highest per-capita incomes in India.

How does any of that justify terrorism? The Indian Army didn`t go into Kashmir on a picnic. Every day, the soldier patrolling the streets of towns and villages there wonders if he will live to see another day. By resorting to terrorism, Kashmiris damaged irreparable damage to their cause and brought misery upon themselves. The day support for the terrorist thugs ceases, the Army will be glad to go back to their barracks.

This entire article is a frikking lie.

Most state governments donated money to the cause of earthquake relief in Kashmir. I know Tamil Nadu has donated Rs. 1 crore to Kashmir relief efforts.

If people haven`t shown up in person to help dig out tumbled-down schools, perhaps they do not want their throats cut by some rabid Islamist thug or have acid thrown on their faces for wearing jeans. I would think that it would be a bit tough to engage in strenuous physical activity when worrying about if your burqa would be slipping.

The Pakistanis have been shouting themselves hoarse that all they want is ``self-determination`` for Kashmir and how that self-determination would cause Kashmir to leave India.

In that case, Kashmiris can taste what true freedom is like by trying to dig themselves out of the earthquake without India`s help.

Ref Urstruly #1

India doesn`t have to do diddly-squat.

We don`t need a character certificate from, of all the people in the world, Muslims or Pakistanis. And we don`t need it from the Chrisians either. Or from Condoleeza Rice.

If at all we want a character certificate, it would be from the peaceful Buddhists and the Jains. They haven`t seen fit to tell us what we need to do; in fact, they don`t seem to think we require a character certificate from them.

So STFU.

Joe,

The New Hope Calvary Church, Assembly of God, Daughters of Mary Immaculate, TMSSS, PMSSS, etc., etc., etc., showed up along the tsunami-hit coast of Tamil Nadu with bags of rice in one hand and bibles in the other, hoping to gather a few errant sheep, the blacker the better for they are guaranteed to be sinners, for the Good Shepherd.

That trick ain`t going to work among the People of the True Faith who populate Kashmir.

That might explain the absence of the rush of NGOs to the rescue in Kashmir.

You don`t have the nerve to ask why is it that a Kashmiri woman set off a suicide bomb in Srinagar the day after the earthquake. Does the bomb in a crowded public place deliver any extra relief materials to Kashmiris who lost their homes to the earthquake?

Now, don`t you think it is time for you to write an article on why Christians in India need reservations/quotas for education, scholarships, government jobs, etc?

Join the Bandwagon of the Brain-Dead.

Message to the author Joe Athialy:
Relax pal. You started off by trying to make a point about Indian civil society not responding to the earthquate in J&K, and veered off into a canned diatribe against the army.

Indian civil society, cine stars, business houses etc are reasonably good in responding to major natural disasters in India. Notice the word ``major``. That would mean at least 10,000 people dead as in the case of the Orissa cyclone, the Tamil Nadu tsunami and the Latur and Bhuj earthquakes (I am not sure of the death toll in the last two but think it was at least 5000). The J&K earthquake, while killing over 55000 in POK and Pakistan, caused `only` about 1500 deaths on the Indian side of the LOC - which is probably why you dont see a major response from Indian civil society.

Remember that there are so many minor disasters (man-made and natural) happening all the time in India. Just in the past few days we had over 110 people killed in the train derailment/crash in Andhra Pradesh at the same time as the Delhi bomb blasts that killed around 60. In the past few months there have been floods in Northern Karnataka and other parts of South India, killing hundreds. Japanese encephalitis is rampaging in Uttar Pradesh killing hundreds over the past few months. Similarly floods have killed several hundreds in Assam in the last couple of months. Unfortunately, Indian civil society is not geared or does not respond at a national level to every disaster. A casualty figure of 10,000 seems to be the threshold that will force newspapers to set up relief funds and employees to donate a day`s pay or whatever. One exception that I am aware of is that of software giant Infosys that donated one crore rupees to the North Karnataka flood victims, as well as one or 1.5 crores each to both sides of J&K for the earthquake.

My point is that the J&K quake victims are not being singled out for being ignored by the rest of India. For a nation beseiged by disasters continuously, it takes a major disaster to roust us. As for Indian civil society assisting quake victims in POK or Pak who are the major victims of this quake, it is all very good and noble but it is even more difficult to roust people to help people in another country.

Coming to your diatribe against the Indian army, well, the army is deployed only because of the jihadis and terrorists. If the secessionists were to protest peacefully, then the state police would be capable of handling any violence and there would be no need to bring the army in.

You make a point about `us` versus `them` when it comes to Kashmiris and the rest of India. Remember, alienation works both ways. If the average Kashmiri feels alienated from ROI, then so would ROI from the average Kashmiri. When there is a bomb blast in Delhi, everyone even in Chennai and Bangalore is worried. Why? Because people in the South have relatives or friends living in Delhi and who are affected by it. Today there was an article in the Hindu about a mother in Karnataka who lost her son in Delhi due to the bomb blasts. I personally know someone who was injured in the Delhi blasts, though I live 2000 miles away in Bangalore. Alienation cannot be there when our lives are intertwined - what happens in one place affects people in other places as well. But that has not been the case for J&K in the past decade or more. Once there is peace in J&K, with free movement of people and business, then our lives will be truly intertwined and there will be no `us` versus `them` anymore.

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Some details about those Kashmiris !!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bharath-Heritage/message/382

Its just not kashmiries but muslims in general have less simpathy from rest of the non-muslims world. This is very evident in the difference of aid that pakistan got as compared to what Thailand and Sri Lanka got after Tsunami.
As far as Indians are concered the beheading for 5 hindus the very next day of earthquake left a very bad taste. Kashmiries did not protest that act the same way they protest when one of thier ``freedom fighter`` is killed by Indian Army.

Rigging of eleclion 20 years back does not justify Jihad. Elections in past were rigged in other states also. BTW the recent election in Pakistan was heavy rigged, I don`t see Pakistanis launching Jihad in Pakistan.

Well right now i am in Srinagar. The way we had experiences of army even troubling us all through the way and not allowing others(from India) to reach out a hand of help to the affected Kashmiris. I feel Indian system is doing more harm, than healing. This is like sprinkling salt on wounds.

If a common Indian student from Mumbai and a Hindu by religion is not trustworthy. It is difficult who we can trust. The way people are dealt is very depressing and shattering your faith in the system that we call ours.

As far as democracy goes, we can boast of a good democracy. But we know of our undemocratic acts in other states also, and I do not think that would anyway enhance India`s image as a supporter of democracy and anyone to trust India for a democratic behaviour.

A place where you are not given avenues to express yourself. A place where there is always pressure on you - either you are with us or you are with them, you cannot have your independent opinion. It deceptive to believe we are nurturing democratic values. In fact what we nurture is ``either you are on our toes or you are not``.

I think what we feel is that Kashmiris are incompetent to take care of themselves. And same do the Pakis. I am of the opinion that pouring in enormous amount of Money, resources and security personnels can in no way strengthen ones faith in a country, what it can do is increase suspision on some vested interest to hold on to this land.

A more positive approach would be to create more avenues of interaction between the mainland India and the Kashmir Valley. Hope I can make few friends bieng here to help out in their time of distress.

dear Author

It is shocking to see the kind of responses to your article.
Are we really living in a humane and rational society or with the progress of technology we have become more backward and unreasionable in our thinking? What is the difference in a the way many people have responded to the selective sympathy and a fundamentalist who we are against?

It is painful that we have taken the whole Kashmir issue beyond the earth quake and the pain the little children, old and sick might be going through. Rather many have taken the issue towards hate, politicking and fundamentalism.

mukta

It is shocking to see the kind of responses to your article.
Are we really living in a humane and rational society or with the progress of technology we have become more backward and unreasionable in our thinking. What is the difference in a the way many people have responded to the selective sympathy and a fundamentalist who we are against.

It is painful that we have taken the whole Kashmir issue beyond the earth quake and the pain the little children, old and sick might be going through. Rather many have taken the issue towards hate, politicking and fundamentalist.

mukta

# 9 Ranger,keep your perverted thoughts to your self .
you are wearing the mask of extremism, like all hindo.
think in terms of humanity rather than greed of kashmir occupation.

Mr. Joe,

What about my rights as a hindu? I feel occupied living in India in the presence of all these muslims and other non-hindus. I want all of them to move out and give me my freedom to live the life of a hindu without any interference of muslim azaan or christian church bells. These other religions are causing me immense suffering and pain and pushing me to the point that I want to blow up bombs and kill my oppressors.

Sir, do you see the fallacy of the above argument in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society like India? Kashmiris need to understand that they are part of that mosaic in India. Their islamic sensiblity means nothing. They have to involve themselves in the national mosaic and participate in India. Then the rest of India will reciprocate.

Joe Sahib

Though art Jesus re-resurrected.....For, among the mortals, even the Pope feels the pain of Catholics and Christians more than that of others.

Joe, I think you mean well. However, why would corporate houses such as Reliance, which have provided much of the relief in the past, want to help out in Jammu and Kashmir? Their employees are not safe there, they make no money from the region. Why wold they do anything? Out of the kindness of their hearts? We know that doesn`t happen.
Also, fewer people have died in this earthquake in J and K than in Latur or Gujarat-tragic as it is, Indians are innured to losses of a few thousand.
We are wired to be callous becuse that is how we survive.

It is true that Pakistani Kashmir has been hit very hard. The damage to Jammu and Kashmir is no different from the routine floods that hit numerous parts of the country.
Didn`t 200 people die in the recent rains in Mumbai ? If a cold wave hits Northern India this winter look for a thousand poor souls to freeze to death.

Even while we swear Kashmir as an ‘integral part’ of India, we still hold the people foreign.


It`s them who think they`re not Indians..As far as I`m concerned, there`s always the mecca solution for them...face mecca and start walking..don`t stop until you reach a good place...

#4 by Urstruly on October 31, 2005 12:27pm PT



There are two ways to extiguish a fire:


There`s a third way: Put a jihadi on the fire...instead of a blanket...

stauka

I mean - we know you have been afflicted with this ``friendship-with-pakis`` bug for quite a while now - but lets` not loose the perspective here..... All that happened was a couple of rigged elections..... and that was 20 years ago..... it`s high time we got over it...... it`s high time the stupidity of starting a jihad is realized and propagated..... it`s hight time kashmiris realize their mistakes.....

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Re: # 6 stuka
//.....The point is that India created the problem, it is in India`s problem to solve it....//

Of course..... India will solve the problem, the way it sees fit.....

Salahuddin was not the only person on face of earth who ever suffered a political victimization... all he has to do was make a big noise about it, let people know about how he was being victimized and wait for his turn...... if everybody who faced such a situation goes on to start a religious war - then we are all doomed..... we all know that India made mistakes in kashmir, but that no way justifies a jihad.....

if war is what Salahuddin[and his fellow travellers] wanted - then war is what we gave them.....if somebody seeks to solve a political problem with religious war - well, what do you want the state to do?

India of course made mistakes, but that really pales in front of the response these m0r0ns came up with.... Now we are even - so let`s cut moralistic cr@p .... After 15 years - we all know where we stand..... who won and who lost..... let`s close this chapter .... with a well-learnt lesson that political issues has to be solved politically, not by jihad.....

Re: # 4 urstruly
[..... empower that Kasmiri who would speak on your behalf...]

Good point.... And please be assured that indians have thought about all these things a thousand times already.... everything you said has already been considered in agonizing details.....

Empower, self-determination - all these are just words people on your side of the border love to throw around .... But the reality is - it`s already there..... there is nothing that prevents a kashmiri from doing anything anywhere anytime in the whole wide country .... The kashmiri is more empowered than any paki has ever been in history of your country....

The kashmiri has to open his eyes and get out of the victim mentality..... Being part of India, he has a lot to gain and nothing to loose .... now, more than ever..... I guess, it will take time for him to realize that .... but we are a patient people....

++++

[....two ways to extiguish a fire: 1. Pour water on it and/or 2. Cut off the fuel that feeds it...]

.... Not all fires can be doused by water - in fact, water makes it worse.... only way to kill such fire is by cutting off the fuel..... Jihad[or freedom fight, as you say] in Kashmir is one such fire..... If water worked on this fire - then it would have been estingushed longtime back....... believe me, over a period of 15 years - we have poured a lot of water on this fire.....

Mohar:

``Sure - but only after you pakis completely stop jihad.... So if you have concerns for kashmiris - all you have to do is - stop jiahd - everything will be just fine after that.....``

Let`s face the truth. Pakistan did not create the Kashmir problem. Indian government created it, right from Nnehru onward. The chief of Hizbul Mujahideen actually stood for elections (Syed Salahuddin) and won in 1987. In return, he was arrested, beaten and the NC candidate was declared winner. His campaign manager was Yasin Malik of JKLF.

Ofcourse, when the Kashmiri movement switched to a more Jihad influnced struggle, the Hizb was responsible for the decimation of JKLF.

The point is that India created the problem, it is in India`s problem to solve it. One thing is there, India itself has changed from the 70s to now. States have more autonomy. Regional parties flourish and are not dismissed as they used to be during Indira`s rule. But, with Kashmir, we have the insecuirty of seperation.

Iindia can move forward on Kashmir if Pakistan signals its readiness to accept a formula which allows India to retain nominal control of Indian Kashmir.

I pointed this out in first few days after the earthquake struck that this is/was a good opportunity for India/Indians to rush all the relief efforts and show sympathy to Kashmiris that India is with them. I did not see much civil activities from individuals as well as NGOs to provide relief to the effected people till now. Partly reason may be the security situation that individuals may be afraid of going in....remember J&K is off limits for rest of India as for as moving or buying properties is concerned...that over the years has lead to somewhat seggregation in J&K relative to rest of the country. While rest of Indians are moving all over the country, settiling and resettling, working, educating etc, contact with Kashmiris is very limited. That may be partly the reason behind indifference. But this indifference is India`s loss not Kashmiris. As happenes with all disasters, people will eventually get up and move on with their lives on their own but this initial support would have meant something to create Indian good will in Kashmir. I think India Govt has done mostly what was absolutely necessary for relief but should have gone for and beyond...what about $1 billion relief, habiliation and long term construction(roads, schools etc) package over next 5 years? In my view that is peanuts for India to do.


Scale of disaster was obviously not the same as Gujarat and Pak Kashmir....Gujarat death toll was around 20K. Pak Kashmir death toll is probably 100K. J&K death toll is no where close to either of these.

Mohar

There are two ways to extiguish a fire:

1. Pour water on it and/or

2. Cut off the fuel that feeds it.

My post below suggests the first method. While your approach is second. However, underlying assumption to your approach is that the freedom struggle in Kashmir is not indiginous. If it were true, then all the 100K dead must have been the Pakistani intruders. But the fact remains that no intruder can survive a day without the active support from the indiginous population. That is the nature of the beast. The fact also remains that Indians are only oppressing Indian Kashmiris and not the Kashmiris or any Pakistani on Pakistan side so what would motivate an ordinary person to leave a comfrtable or safe life and go across the border and fight for people whom he never met in his life. The fact remains that what motivates Paksitani youths to do that is the inhuman oppression of the fellow human beings. They find it below human dignity to just idlly sit by and let all these attrocities happen. This fire cannot be extinguished by force or coercion. No government can control it because it has become the will of the people. No government can motivate people to this extent unless people are motivated by themselves first. I don`t think Mushraf, or American pressure or lable like terrorist or jihadi now mean anything to them because they can see a bigger crime a bigger attrocity happening first.

So a humane way, a prudent and just way would be to stop stoking the fuel into the fire. Imagine a day when an Indian Kashmiri will tell a Paksitani intruder that he doesn`t need his help because he is quite happy with being with India. That is what I asked for in my post. So my appeal to you is to empower that Kasmiri who would speak on your behalf.

Joe,

A good article.

I also noticed a less than usual response from rest of us towards the people who suffered in J&K. Part of the apathy may be real and if so, I totally agree with you. Our response to this will go a long way in changing the attitude of local Kashmiris.

However, I was assuming the response was less also because the extent of destruction is less.

Also, You are blaming the Army a lot but I guess they would have been and still are the first responders and providing adequate relief. And if kashmiris` perception of Army changes, that would be a great step forward

If you have more updates on the latest situation, please share with us,
Thanks,
Avkrishna

P.S: The earthquake in Gujarat and Latur are much worse in people/property damage thatn this one. So the response from the rest of us would be different

urstruly

Sure - but only after you pakis completely stop jihad.... So if you have concerns for kashmiris - all you have to do is - stop jiahd - everything will be just fine after that.....

The noise of loudmouth extremists and charlatans was so overwhelming that I was begining to think that mother India has gone sterile over the years and stopped giving birth to souls that are just and compassionate. It is the first time ever that I have seen an Indian expressing compassion for Kashmiri people.

Does India has a choice to be compassionate? Can it choose to be compassionate. Compassion never means weakness but it means revitalizing the weak and the withered. India does not have to forego an inch of land if it chooses to be compassionate. Let`s see how.

1. India must declare amnesty absolutely unconditionally to all the freedom fighters that are struggling to free their motherland.

2. India must compensate those poeple who have lost relatives, property or a limb in this conflict.

3. India must unconditionally apologize to all women who were raped and tortured as an act of retribution against freedom struggle.

4. India must unconditionally apologize for all Kashmiris for the pain its policies has caused them for the past 50 years.

5. India must declare Kashmir a disaster area and re-construct it on war footing.

6. India must reduce its army; currentlly one Indian soldier is sitting per one household. This is horrible.

7. India must call off its death squads who exact retribution on the whole villages for the action of freedom fighters.

8. India must shut down all its interrogation centers and torture cells absolutely unconditionally.

9. India must allow international observers to witness the action it takes to restore the basic human rights of its population.


I do not think any of these actions means separation of Kashmir from India. It would only mean that there are human beings who live in Indian territory who think the people of Kashmir as human beings as well. I know all the points mentioned above start with ``India must``; but it is because of the fact that it is very much in the power of India to do that. Whereas, Kashmir is the weaker aggrieved party. What India can get in return is the gratitude of Kashmiri people, which is priceless. A little compassion goes a long way. What weapons cannot accoplish, a little compassion can.