Why Doesn’t the World Care?

Re: # 241

hamidm:

``we don`t hate the jews simply because the arabs hate them, we hate them because the koran tells us to .......... ``

hmmmm.... and mohd was what ????? a liberal swede?

---

``hanuman`s tradition of abducting women and then running up a coconut tree .............``


hahahahahah. good one

FYI, hanuman was a celibate.

Re: # 236

shankar:

good post.

``The civilised world is more concerned about Kashmir getting talabanised.``

independent kashmir will never find favor among countries like russia, china, u.s. who themselves are facing islamic problem.

it wont take much time for independent kashmir to become another afghanistan or chechnya post-independence.

Shridar : ``Your patriotism is touching but misplaced.
There is no comparison between India and US.
I visited Bangalore some months ago. The place made me feel like running away. Roads were choked with traffic. No order anywhere. Is this the face of new India?``

Dude...what patriotism ? I am not interested in the rest of the country , other 1.1 billion people. I only care about myself. And as an `upper middle class Indian from Bangalore` my standard of living is at par with the upper middle class in US.

Re: # 247
re: ajeya:

///...or are you going to try to stir up the mud some more to try and confuse the issue?///

Okay, I`m not supposed to ``stir up the mud`` or ``confuse the issue``. So, for fear of any analysis being called mudstirring and issue-confusing, I`ll try to clarify it as simply as possible.

My position is this:

The percentage population of people from country X in country Y has nothing to do with the justifiable levels of disfavour people from country Y can have for people from country X.

In other words, you cannot say ``Y-ites disapproval of X-ites is justified because at least q% of people from X live in Y``

And from post # 237 by arjun_m, (which contains an excellent point on the justifiability of hatred in the context of partition) I understand his position very clearly. To quote:``If Pakiland had a significant minority population of jews, it`s conceivable that there could be bad blood between the pure muslims from the land of the pure and jews based on a historical event...something like the partition perhaps...That doesn`t make the hatred justified but it could be a possible explanation...

To clarify even further:

Arjun_m: historical events can be an explanation for hatred. Pakistani hatred of Jews is because they want to be Arabs.
Aha_Snark: You can`t say that people from country X can only understandably/validly/justifiably hate group Y if q% of people from Y live in X.

Feel free to ask me for any further clarifications.

Aha_Snark
hoipolloi@gmail.com

So Aamir miyan, you are saying the indignance due to lack of receiving the ``deserved`` aid will result in burning of a few KFC`s in karachi and lahore? yup...thought so...

I agree with the points made about this ummah-itis that pakis suffer from. This burning sensation for affilitation through hatred of everyone including some of their own is sad indeed. if ummah only came up with a couple of patents to monetize upon....kash some day.

Shridar...

with due respect to you , India is a nation of 1.1 billion , IITs are not the only engineering colleges in India. There are only 3000 seats in IITS and only 500 of them being comp. science or electronics.

There are other decent colleges like RV College of Engineering , Bangalore.......and my dad didn`t need to spend his `ill gotten wealth` to get me a seat there , because I managed to get a merit seat by getting a decent enough rank in Karnataka-CET held just over 2 years ago. And fees are well affordable...just Rs.10,000 a year or in $ terms , $222 per year for a 4-year course , thank you very much.

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aamir, when you are in a hole, its best to stop digging. your post #233 makes even less sense than your article. this is quite an achievement considering that your article itself is a shoddy piece of work because it contains factual inaccuracies, wooly generalizations that cannot be supported and reaches conclusions that are sophomoric.

i. you claim in your article that fdi in pakistan is dwindling. in my post #66 on this board, i provided evidence to the contrary. please provide evidence to show that information i have posted is incorrect. otherwise, large part of your thesis will go out of the window.

ii. you write that ``Tsunami affected countries that most of the developed world had tangible, positive, affinity with``. indonesia was the country most greatly impacted by tsunami. here are a couple of quotes in jakarta post on image of indonesia:

“At home with Indonesia

9 October 2005
The Jakarta Post

...What`s more, people in many parts of the world, especially Australia and the West, tend to have a negative image of Indonesia. For them, the name Indonesia is a synonym for terrorism, corruption, or radical Muslims, among other things.

…And because of this so-called CNN effect, people will remember and associate Indonesia with such terrorist attacks as the bombings of Bali, both in 2002 and last week, of the JW Marriot Jakarta Hotel in 2003, and of the Australian Embassy last year...``

``A counterimage: `Postcards from Indonesia`

The Jakarta Post,

7 October 2005,

The multi-dimensional crisis that has plagued Indonesia for the last seven years has smeared the country`s image in the world media. Looting during the 1998 riots, bomb attacks in Bali and Jakarta, and the tsunami broadcast all over the .media…”

i would really like to find out how ``developed world had tangible, positive, affinity`` with a basket case country like indonesia.

iii. in various parts of the article, you claim that pak`s internal situation has had an impact on its perception abroad and this directly or indirectly has resulted in countries not contributing aid. yet in your post #233, you bizarrely claim that internal conflicts do not impact foreign perception. seems to me that you are implying that corruption and bad governance is much worse for a country`s image than insurgencies and pogroms. i actually find this claim pretty funny in a macabre sort of way. also to remind you, the scale of financial crises in indonesia has dwarfed anything in pak. the term asian financial crises should ring a bell even you.

waisay i am not surprised to see a misinformed person like yourself attaching so much importance to what goras think. thankfully though, awam has a bit more ghairath than that.

Re: #246 by satyamvada

A lot of times, I have come across Muslims saying - oh why is it that Hindus seem to have hate us? What have we ever done? Those ancient Muslim conquerors are long dead and gone. Why use that to accuse us?

The truth is that, unlike Christianity or Zoroastrianism or Judaism, ISLAM IS ACTUALLY LOOKED DOWN UPON by Hindus. I am not lying to you - believe me. It is a mixture of fear and repulsion. Kind of the feeling when you see a snake slithering around near your feet.

Nothing about it commands respect - nothing at all. Not it`s Prophet, it`s teachings, it`s legacy, or it`s adherents taken as a whole. It`s like a hated predator constantly lurking, looking for the right opportunity to harm you.

And although people like Kulharee would come up with their own versions of Islam (which by definition is an idiotic and futile enterprise) Islam`s very nature will bring it into conflict with the rest of the civilized world. In France, in the Netherlands, in America, in China, in Thailand, in Myanmar, in the Philipines, in Indonesia - everywhere.

Either everyone else (Dar-ul-Harab) is bad, or you Muslims are.

It is as simple as that.

Re: # 237
re: arjun_m

In your post#40, you said :``///Pakiland has almost 0% jews..and yet 80% of Pakis have an unfavorable opinion of jews...it`s part of the wannabe-arab thing...///``

I thought that line of reasoning was faulty and I put forth what I thought was an equally faulty line of reasoning, in post # 48:

Well then, what would you say about the almost 0% ethnic Chinese/African population of India who have an unfavourable opinion of China/Africa & Africans ? Absurd, I agree. But so is the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z.

This statement was picked up by Ajeya and reinterpreted, and I responded to him in posts 224 and 229

You say my interpretation of your statement is a strawman. I just read up on the concept, it`s quite interesting, especially given the flavour of some interacts here. A strawman proposition is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than one`s opponents actually offer. To ``set up a straw man`` or ``set up a straw-man argument`` is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent.

One can set up a straw man in several different ways:

1. Present the opponent`s argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted.
2. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent`s position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent`s actual position has been refuted.
3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person`s arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.
4. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group that the speaker is critical of.

Ah... wonder where I`ve seen something like that happen.

You say: Now when 80% of Pakis hate jews, they`re only being wannabe arabs..they`ve imported the arab visceral hatred of jews...what other possible explanation could there be for 80% of Pakis having an unfavorable opinion jews?

Well, you could try looking. Or you could read what someone said on this very thread. Or you could actually ask Pakistanis. You know, the ones that come to this shared space for interacting ?

Dear $DEITY, have you tried that ? It`s quite simple, really:

``O Pakistanis, I have heard that lots of you hate the Jews. Would one of you tell me why this is so?``

Oh, and just a reminder: You haven`t answered the questions I`ve repeatedly put to you in posts # 227, 48 & 31.

Re: #229 by Aha_Snark

[Arjun_m made a statement (Pakistanis are unfavourably disposed towards Jews) based on what I thought was absurd reasoning (he referred to the % population of Jews in Pakistan, implying that you have to have a substantial % population of group X in your country before you can, justifiably , have an unfavourable opinion of them.)

I counterposed an equally absurd proposition: that Indian disinclination towards China should have anything to do with the % Chinese in India. ]


Heh heh heh.

That`s a pretty good one. Even by Romair`s standards. This was an outstanding effort at obfuscation. Very well done.

But you are not going to get away with that where I am concerned. My English comprehension is actually very good. As has been proved time and again by many standardized tests. Heh heh heh.

Now let`s examine the evidence:

You say you ``counterposed an equally absurd proposition``.

So let`s see what Arjun posed and what you counterposed:

Arjun said:

``///Another example: Pakiland has almost 0% jews..and yet 80% of Pakis have an unfavorable opinion of jews...it`s part of the wannabe-arab thing.../// ``

In other words, he was saying that there is no reason for Pakis to hate the Jews when the percentage of Jews in Pakistan is almost 0 - the actual reason that they hate Jews is because they want to be more Arab.

You OPPOSED that point of view.

According to you, wanting to be more Arab can not really be the reason. Because otherwise how come Indians do something similar - hate the Chinese when their percentage is almost 0 in India?

In other words, you DREW A PARALLEL between the two situations.

And I SAID, that THERE IS NO PARALLEL, because Indians ACTUALLY HAVE A GOOD REASON TO HATE THE CHINESE - the Indo-Pak wars - REGARDLESS OF THE PERCENTAGE OF CHINESE IN INDIA.

Therefore your drawing the parallel WAS NOT A LOGICAL COUNTERPOINT.

Now do you understand this, or are you going to try to stir up the mud some more to try and confuse the issue?

It is a pretty open-and shut case, you know. You might be fooling a few idiots on Chowk, but most people with an average English comprehension would see this as being a very simple case.

Now Godot, tahmed, romiar and that wannabe-muslim YLH will tell us the
greatness of Pakistan, its laws , ``no compulsion in islam`` etc -

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http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2005-daily/04-11-2005/metro/k3.htm

No news of three Hindu girls kidnapped from Punjab colony

Parents say that the government has to take action

By Aroosa Masroor Khan

KARACHI: After the recent earthquake, most Hindu families decided to celebrate Diwali with simplicity this year but Sanao Amra’s family had different reasons for observing the occasion with solemnity. Three of his daughters were kidnapped from Punjab Colony, Gizri where they reside earlier this month. The family still does not know where they are hope that they are safe and will eventually be allowed to rejoin their family.

On 18th October when Sanao Amra’s wife, Champa, returned home from work, her daughters were nowhere to be found. Unable to understand what had exactly happened behind her back, she inquired about their whereabouts from her neighbours. The neighbours initially said they had not seen the girls, but later told Champa that the elder daughters Reena, 21 and Usha, 19, were seen rushing out of home towards their younger sister Reema’s school from where perhaps all the sisters were kidnapped.

Sanao Amra searched for his daughters for 2-3 days after which he went to the police. They turned down his pleas for help by saying that the government had not provided them with proper means of investigation and therefore there was not much they could do. The refusal by the police did not leave much for the family to hope. Then a few days later, one of the neighbours handed some documents to Sanao, which they said that they had received through courier. The documents stated that their daughters had embraced Islam and was signed by them too.

Suspecting three boys from his neighbourhood, Sanao Amra lodged an FIR against them after which they were promptly arrested by the police. But the court granted them bail because they were underaged for legal punishment. The boys are now free but the whereabouts of the sisters are unknown.

One of the boys, Abid, had informed the girls’ family that the girls had embraced Islam a year ago, but the father did not believe him. ``No sane person would ever fall for that. My daughters were kidnapped on the 18th and the documents state that they accepted Islam on that day itself, if at all.`` He said that he had been with his daughters for years and was very well aware of their thoughts and actions. He said they showed no sign of an inclination towards Islam before this, which is why he is sure they were being pressurized. ``I don’t know what they made my daughters do and how they convinced them to sign those papers but I am sure it was done without their wilful consent,`` said the father.

His wife, Champa, shared his views in this regard. She was expressionless when asked about her daughters. She said: ``It has been fifteen days now and I’m still hoping my daughters will return...even if they have embraced Islam the kidnappers should leave them back or at least bring them to us once instead of hiding away like cowards. I would want to see me daughters accept the fact in front of me.``

She said that they had done everything to spread the news of the daughters’ kidnappings, but no response had come so far. ``The kidnappers haven’t contacted us either, I have been waiting near the phone just in case my daughters call,`` disclosed the mother. They were happy girls content with their lives. The elder daughters Reena and Usha were also engaged to be married soon.

Sanao added that kidnapping Hindus and making them embrace Islam is not a new practice for their minority. ``This has been happening for years, it’s just that we belong to a suppressed class and are scared of involving the police and the media which is why such cases weren’t highlighted before. This is the first time anybody from my community has taken this step and I am not going to withdraw the case, but I can nothing by myself until I have the police or some government official to help me investigate.``

His health has been deteriorating as a result of this incident too. The remaining members of the family, which include a young daughter and son, have not eaten well for the past fifteen days. They are waiting all day with the hope of receiving some news about the whereabouts of their daughters. Another fear that is haunting the mother is that her daughters could have been killed, but she chooses to remain optimistic. ``I still have faith in God,`` she said.

The father also said that it was ironical that in this holy month of Ramazan, when Muslims generally become God-fearing, there are still some people who are diverted from the real practice of Islam. ``I have studied Islam too and really respect the religion for what it preaches. It certainly does not talk about forceful acceptance into the religion. This is no way to persuade...I am surprised at the minimal attention the govt is giving to this issue.``

One of the cousins of the girls, Raju, added that they have always considered Pakistan as their own country and the kind of discrimination their community has been experiencing now never happened before. The Hindus in Karachi are not recent settlers, they were a part of Pakistan even before partition. Raju said: ``We feel now we are not wanted here and can no longer term ourselves as Pakistanis. Leaving the religious differences aside, we are the citizens of this country first then why are we being treated as outcasts?``

He said the negligence of the government in proceeding with the case any further reveals that they are themselves involved in this. He mentioned that the police are trying to silence the family by telling them that the culprits, like in case of previous kidnappings, will not be caught this time either so they should not bother.

``How can they be so insensitive? Our community members even held a demonstration outside Karachi Press Club to condemn the kidnapping of my daughters but they turned a deaf ear to our call. I have been watching news on T.V. as well, but not a single channel has talked about my daughters even once,`` said the father.

He pleaded with the government to take note of the situation and consider the rights of the minorities that were promised when the country came into existence decades ago. The case of the three kidnapped Hindu girls once again challenges the concept of enlightened moderation that the government has been propagating for some years now

sri #243 trouble is - you can take a man out of his country...but you cant take the country out of the man.

aha_snark: So it is an anagram. So we have two shankars on chowk then. as for making it harder for banned interactors to sneak back in - i am sure there are ways (e.g. charge a small fee every time you get a nick.) but then...who the hell cares one way or another. as long as we have some good writers on chowk.

#232 by masanamuthu

``I think the ``world`` (non-Islamic) is beginning to care about this.. ``


What I wonder is..... if Danish culture is so offensive to Muslims why are they even living in Denmark. They are welcome to whatever the goddamned place they are from, if they sooo broken up with such severe heartache.

I say to this every turd world immigrant. Some immediate basket cases that I can name are : Hispanics in U.S, terrorists in Britain and Denmark, Muslim mobs in France etc.

The author tells us:

Pfizer pharmaceutical group donated 11 million dollars in cash and another $45million in medicine to the Tsunami victims compared to the $6m committed to the South Asian earth quake. Admittedly more than 200,000 died in the Tsunami compared to the 100,000 expected to have perished in the earthquake. But the dead don’t generally need medicine and the number of displaced and homeless is far more for the South Asian earthquake (3.3m) than what it was for the Tsunami. What could then explain the ten fold more charitable Pfizer for Tsunami? Surely the potential of selling Viagra is far higher in Bangkok than it is in Muzzafarabad.

Far be it from me to defend a multi-national corporation. But let us examine a few facts.

Pfizer says that it has 4000 employees in the countries affected by the tsunami.
(see http://www.pfizer.com/pfizer/are/mn_tsunami_qa.jsp )

Let us examine the behavior of Pfizer Pakistan employees:

Tsunami:

http://www.pfizer.com.pk/Default.aspx?tabid=44

Some Pfizer colleagues pledged to help the affectees of the tsunami by donating a day’s salary, while other colleagues, with the help of a committee that was formed, were able to get donations which were handed over, to the Consulate of Srilanka. These donations included sheets, blankets, towels, toiletries, staples like rice, lentils, sugar, flour, tea, new & used clothes. Thanks were extended by letters of appreciation from the Sri Lankan Consul General, Ms. Manel D`Silva, to everyone for their help and donations. Mr. Iqbal Bengali, CM distributed certificates of appreciation to the colleagues who helped in this venture.

Earthquake:

http://www.pfizer.com.pk/Default.aspx?tabid=161&query=79

Pfizer colleagues opened up their hearts and pockets for the victims of the earthquake that struck the norhtern part of Pakistan in the beginning of October. Not only was medical expertise given to the injured and sick by qualified Pfizer physicians, other colleagues went and helped ``hands on`` in Kashmir & NWFP distributing food, clothes and tents. One to ten day salaries were pledged and a collective amount of over Rs. 500,000 was collected and put immediately to good use. This amount was over and above other local and international donations made by Pfizer Pakistan & Pfizer Inc. All of us at Pfizer pray for the lost souls and for those who have survived.

The point is that the more ties one has, the more one gives. Simple as that.

Make Pakistan a destination for the world, and the world will share in Pakistan`s sorrows. Keep Pakistan as it is now, and wail about the world`s indifference.