Why Doesn’t the World Care?

Re: # 237

arjun,

.......... you are an idiot !........... we don`t hate the jews simply because the arabs hate them, we hate them because the koran tells us to .......... the precedent was set by the prophet in medina - we continue to follow his tradition the same way you follow hanuman`s tradition of abducting women and then running up a coconut tree .............

#239 by ahi441313 on November 5, 2005 7:31am PT


as long as Muslims there can live respectfully and peacefully rather than be in this constant turmoil of uncertainity, death, and depravation


Living in peace? Hmm...kinda like they were living before 1965 before YOU launched the first attack to get Kashmir?

Re: # 236

Dear Shankar

I cant give a collective national opinion about what Pakistanis think about India, Kashmir, etc. but here is what most of the people I know think. And most of them are nationalistic Pakistani`s too.

We need to stop thinking about India at every single crossroad of our existance and focus on our internal challenges. We should look at some of the good things India has done (enviable IT exports, favorable global image, successful regional & global businesses, etc.) and learn from some lessons on things that didnt go too well. But quite honestly our competition should be ourselves; i.e. what Pakistan is capable of achieving rather than with India. And I dont think we are xenophobic to consider India wants to gobble us up. This is the 21st century we`re living in!

Personally I think we`ve made too much of the real estate issue called Kashmir. Its a political tool to fool the masses (perhaps from both sides) from asking more challenging questions about roti, kapra, makan. I`d prefer Kashmir be independent, or be a part of India (easily accessible to Pakistani Kashmiris) as long as Muslims there can live respectfully and peacefully rather than be in this constant turmoil of uncertainity, death, and depravation under the occupation of Pakistan (or India).

Pakistani leaders have often failed us, but there is no quick fix. Institutions need to be established, recognized and respected, education needs to be provided to all, women need to be emancipated, interpretation of Islam needs to be made more relevant, progressive and consistent with the times we live in. These things take time and given our runrate in the past 55 years Mushy cant pull a Shahid Afridi now - so I give him more credit than he gets from across the border and from my more liberal friends. The choice is not really between Mushy and a non-existant ideal but between him and a couple of proven (albeit, popular) failures.

The Danish newspaper owe an apology to all muslims for hurting their feelings and insulting the Prophet.

#229 by Aha_Snark on November 4, 2005 10:54pm PT


Arjun_m made a statement (Pakistanis are unfavourably disposed towards Jews) based on what I thought was absurd reasoning (he referred to the % population of Jews in Pakistan, implying that you have to have a substantial % population of group X in your country before you can, justifiably , have an unfavourable opinion of them.)


WHOA!!!...Hold on..I never implied anything like that...That`s YOUR interpreatation of what I imply..It`s what we call a strawman...erected by YOU...

If Pakiland had a significant minority population of jews, it`s conceivable that there could be bad blood between the pure muslims from the land of the pure and jews based on a historical event...something like the partition perhaps...That doesn`t make the hatred justified but it could be a possible explanation...

Now when 80% of Pakis hate jews, they`re only being wannabe arabs..they`ve imported the arab visceral hatred of jews...what other possible explanation could there be for 80% of Pakis having an unfavorable opinion jews?

Re: # 215

behram,

{{Yes, Aamir, I agree with you that we have to take responsibility at an individual level. And I do. You suggest that we get rid of the leaders that are unsuitable. Agreed. And then replace them with what? another crook?

That is the dilemma that my country faces. And that is frustrating. }}

I dont say this to be mean-spirited; but the Pakistani leadership (after the death of Jinnah) have, in effect, not only spat in the face of Jinnah....worse than that..on the Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself....while carrying both those icons on their sleeves & thumping their message at every political rally.

There is no doubt that the response by individual Pakistanis to this crisis has been very impressive. It has galvanised the country; as a people. However, this tragedy is of such monumental scale; that Pakistani leadership will have to rethink her priorities.

-the first priority is to give up your obssession of ``occupied`` Kashmir. It has dragged your country down. It has created monsters that your government cant control. Your country has NO international symapthy for their cause.

-in fact, that militant cause has allied itself to the greater Islamic worldwide militancy. The civilised world is more concerned about Kashmir getting talabanised. This MYTH about Azaaad Kashmiris being sooo happy as compared to the enslaved Kashmiris ...ought to be put to a rest. You are just kidding yourselves.

-Yes, Pakistan has a lot of institutions that have sought to destroy it....the military, the feudals, the ``elite``....IMHO, it is the military-Azaad Kashmiri elite nexus that has destroyed Pakistan the most.

-The partition was a divorce...it happened...Pakistan didnt like the conditions of the divorce....too bad....move on! If the military doesnt have the Indian ``booogey-man; they are out of a job!``..

-this subconcious paranioa that India is out to gobble you up is just making your military fat. In 71, the Indian army was in Dacca. Is Bangladesh an Indian satellite or part of India?

-Why in the world would India want to swollow up Pakistan? Heck you guys cant run your own country; why the heck should we want you BACK?...just because some old pre-independance generation fogeys were lamenting...well, theyre dead &/or senile....an anachronism. If anything, India`s right wing (like gujju-bania) want to throw our muslims OUT!

-Yes yes we Indians aint paragons of virtue...not by a long shot...our poverty is dreadfully apparent....our right wing is just as hateful...but there is a BIG difference, Indians, as a whole, are more optimistic about the future than I have ever seen.

Get over this xenophobia; neither of us (or any other country) has the luxury to chose our neighbors....but its time that fool Mushy realises that he cannot dictate terms to Indians.

Re: # 231

re: tahmed32:

Thanks :) Carroll`s snark was part of my inspiration for the nick. The other part is that ahasnark is an anagram of A. Shankar. Gujju/Prashant123/Avenger/Ranger/Ajeya often addresses me by my real name here. With great apparent pleasure, it seems like.

I wonder if there`s any way to make the ban/new-nick > ban/new-nick > ban/new-nick cycle less easy. hmmm. I have a few ideas. Do you?

Re: rshridhar
“It is that mindset that some of us are trying to understand. Why is it O.K for Pakis to have choppers from US, have NATO forces land in their midst but not have similar aid from India. Mushy showed that he may be a good strategist but is not a statesman. “

I don’t know why Pakistanis don’t want aid from India, but I am sure we can find good use for the money we have offered in this country. The staunchest opponents of Indian aid in Pakistan are aware that they need every little bit they can get. My point is lets move on, we can’t help.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 222

Dear Faisaluno,

The article was not talking about internal problems of Pakistan per se, but why the aid pouring is less than what others have gotten in similar situations. The examples you`ve given (of Sri Lanka & Indonesia) were internal conflicts, which do not generally result in individual, national or international humanitarian aid. Admittedly some of Pakistan`s internal problems have exacerbated its steady decline in the eyes of the world which has directly affected the opinion of other nations and people around the world and which has a direct affect on the aid received. But there are other reasons mentioned which have nothing to do with Pakistan`s internal conflicts.

Trivilazing the hypothesis of others as english medium brainlessness does not add to the credibility of your arguments anymore than your believing that you`re the only gifted Pakistani who could have thought of such (underwhelming) arguments.

Perhaps the reason why no one else jumped on this line of thinking is because such arguments were quite off-tangent to the discussion.

In another mail (#225) you referred to ``Sweden`s clockwork`` efficiencies. Perhaps you meant Switzerland?

I think the ``world`` (non-Islamic) is beginning to care about this..

Danish news

Danish cartoons of Prophet Mohammed provoke outcry
London, Nov. 5 (UNI): A Danish experiment in testing ``the limits of freedom of speech`` with newspaper cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed have provoked an outcry.

Thousands of Muslims have taken to the streets in protest at the caricatures, the newspaper that published them has received death threats and two of its cartoonists have been forced into hiding.

Jyllands-Posten, Denmark`s leading daily, defied Islam`s ban on images of the Prophet by printing cartoons by 12 different artists.

In one, he is depicted as a sabre-wielding terrorist accompanied by women in burqas, in another, his turban appears to be a bomb and in a third, he is portrayed as a schoolboy by a blackboard.

The ambassadors of 11 Muslim countries called on the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to take ``necessary steps`` against the ``defamation of Islam``.

But Mr Rasmussen, the head of a Centre-Right minority coalition dependent for its survival on support from an anti-foreigner party, called the cartoons a ``necessary provocation`` and refused to act.

``I will never accept that respect for a religious stance leads to the curtailment of criticism, humour and satire in the press,`` he said.

The Danish debate over how to integrate Muslims has raged for years, with nursery school menus and women-only opening hours for swimming pools particular battlegrounds. But the cartoons satirising the Prophet have injected a dangerous new element into the controversy.

``This is a pubescent demonstration of freedom of expression that consciously and totally without reason has trampled over the feelings of many people,`` said Uffe Ellemann Jensen, a former foreign minister and member of Mr Rasmussen`s party.

The editor of Jyllands-Posten Carsten Juste spurned demands that he apologise, saying he ``would not dream`` of saying sorry.

``To demand that we take religious feelings into consideration is irreconcilable with western democracy and freedom of expression,`` he said. ``This doesn`t mean that we want to insult any Muslims.``

Mr Juste commissioned the cartoons after learning of the difficulties a children`s writer, Kare Bluitgen, had in finding an illustrator for his book on the Koran and the Prophet`s life. Mr Bluitgen said all the artists he approached feared the wrath of Muslims if they drew images of Prophet Mohammed.

Many cited the murder of the Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by an Islamist as a reason for refusal.

Mr Juste said he wanted to counter the growing ``self-censorship`` and see how many cartoonists would be ``bold enough`` to draw the Prophet.

One artist, Franz Füchsel, said he intended no offence. ``But I live in 2005, not 905 and I use my quill in the way that Danish law allows me.``

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch MP famous for her criticism of Islam and author of the screenplay for Mr Van Gogh`s film Submission, supported the paper. ``It`s necessary to taunt Muslims on their relationship with Mohammed,`` she said.

``Otherwise we will never have the dialogue we need to establish with Muslims on the most central question: `Do you really feel that every Muslim in 2005 should follow the way of life the Prophet had 1,400 years ago, as the Koran dictates?```

---

Aha_Snark: That is one cool nick. I checked and see that a snark is actually a boojum in Lewis Carroll`s ``The Hunting of the Snark``. :-) And why the ``Aha``?? I am just curious what made you pick this nick.

Re: # 37

I agree with Saleem Chauhan,..the reason ,..why the world didn,t care is that they have realized that Pakistan is in the grip of the world worst and shameless kind of Mafia,

Influential people of Pakistan are the worst kind of hypocrites on the surface of this earth.

In the last 58 years ,..Pakistan received billions of dollars,..ordinary people are still miserable,..but government mafia is bursting with money,...

Store keepers and clerks of government departments are multi millionaires,.and Pakistan is like a bird of prey in their claws,...Army officers are in the business of real estate,...and they are the world richest people......

Why ask the world for the help and cash money,..when we have the world most expensive real estate in Pakistan,..

So called Pakistani elite, and these so guardians are cruel,...humanity suffers in front of our eyes on daily basis,...we are sadist people ,..we keep slaves in our servant quarters,...and we use these poor people to get more and more cash from the world,...

!7,000 children died in schools,...government buildings collapsed,....fat and cruel contractors and XEN,s are again waiting to go through another big round of corruption ,...Why government of pakistan is so desperate for cash..???? ,..they should be asking for technical assistance,..and Western Nations should build the infrastructure,..rather than giving cash to the most corrupt clerks and overseers of the government....

Mullahs are agents of feudals , Politicians,..and Army officers,..they are keeping general people busy in the talks of paradise and hell,..they are just like the clergy of medieval Europe,....

Pakistan and India ,..are the countries where influential people dance naked,..and no body can do any thing,...because we are in the grip of deception ,..we kicked Britishers out,....

We removed professional Britishers, because they were drinking alcohol,..but now when our Black Masters drink alcohol and Blood,..then Mullahs and pandits are silent,..because they get bone from their Masters,...

Giving cash to corrupt officers of Pakistan ,..and seeing the collapsed substandard government buildings,..and death of 17,000 innocent students ,.... reminds me of the following verse of Mir Taqi Mir ,..

Mir Kiya Sada hai,Beemar huway jis kay sabab,..
Usi attar kay londay say dawa letay hain

Re: # 226

re: Ajeya:
Aha_Snark said: [*shrug* Considering we`re on a website that`s frequented by Pakistanis, why don`t you ask *them* why so many have an unfavourable opinion of Jews ? I never said that Pakistanis don`t have an unfavourable opinion of Jews, nor did I say that they hold this opinion for Z or Y reason. ]

Well, you said the following:

Aha_Snark said: [Well then, what would you say about the almost 0% ethnic Chinese/African population of India who have an unfavourable opinion of China/Africa & Africans ? Absurd, I agree. But so is the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z. ]

Ajeya said:///You said that IT IS ABSURD that Indians have an unfavourable opinion of the Chinese///

No, I did not. I`ll explain.

Arjun_m made a statement (Pakistanis are unfavourably disposed towards Jews) based on what I thought was absurd reasoning (he referred to the % population of Jews in Pakistan, implying that you have to have a substantial % population of group X in your country before you can, justifiably , have an unfavourable opinion of them.)

I counterposed an equally absurd proposition: that Indian disinclination towards China should have anything to do with the % Chinese in India.

To put matters straight, any country that feels it has been attacked by another country and has lost territory as well would feel disinclined towards the second country. There`s nothing absurd about that proposition.

Aha_Snark
hoipolloi@gmail.com

Re: # 162
re: Ranger:

So you do answer to the name of Gujju.

Re: # 72
re: arjun_m:

My questions remain unanswered (and evaded?) from posts # 31 and #48:

1) Please show me sources that state that the majority or ``most`` Pakistanis think that the ummah is desirable and attainable.
2) The survey you quoted stated that Pakistanis think that universal imposition of sharia would be tantamount to Islamic Extremism. Do you accept that as what Pakistanis think ?
3) Do you accept each of the below statistics, from the very same source that you use :

A) Even in the defense of Islam, only 25% of Pakistanis believed violence against civilians was often or sometimes justified

B) On suicide attacks against the US IN Iraq, only 29% of Pakistanis believe they are justified. Oh, and this rate of support has dropped almost 50% since last year.

C) 65% of Pakistanis believe in 2005 that violence against civilians is rarely or never justified, with 46% believing it is never justified:


Source

Aha_Snark
hoipolloi@gmail.com

Re: #224 by Aha_Snark

[*shrug* Considering we`re on a website that`s frequented by Pakistanis, why don`t you ask *them* why so many have an unfavourable opinion of Jews ? I never said that Pakistanis don`t have an unfavourable opinion of Jews, nor did I say that they hold this opinion for Z or Y reason. ]

Well, you said the following:

[Well then, what would you say about the almost 0% ethnic Chinese/African population of India who have an unfavourable opinion of China/Africa & Africans ? Absurd, I agree. But so is the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z. ]

You said that IT IS ABSURD that Indians have an unfavourable opinion of the Chinese.

And I said that it is not, GIVEN the fact that many Indians lost their lives in the Indo-China war.

So do you see that you made an ILLOGICAL statement?

Let me know. I`m listening...