Why Doesn’t the World Care?

Re: # 260
re: arjun_m

///This is pathetic...First you erected a strawman..and now the strawman is kicking your butt..///

My complete position is present in post #267.

In post # 237, you had said:/// ``If Pakiland had a significant minority population of jews, it`s conceivable that there could be bad blood between the pure muslims from the land of the pure and jews based on a historical event...something like the partition perhaps...That doesn`t make the hatred justified but it could be a possible explanation...///

I commented on it in post # 254, and said that your post # 237 had ``an excellent point on the justifiability of hatred in the context of partition

Now you say: ``///What part of the ``hatred is not justified`` offers justifiability of the hatred?///``

None. I never claimed that you said hatred was justified.

I`ll explain.

You said that a historical event, ///``something like partition perhaps`` could cause bad blood between group X and Y. ///

I agree with you so far.

Then you went on to observe that: /// ... That doesn`t make the hatred justified but it could be a possible explanation...///

And I agree with you again! - you see, you just said that hatred between X and Y could possibly be explained by a historical event such as partition... but it could not be justified.

That`s so... so... so... progressive, arjun_m.

You just made `` an excellent point on the justifiability of hatred``

Where ``justifiability of hatred`` is the concept and a point, of the type excellent, is what you made. On the concept. Of justifiability. Of hatred.

Oh, and since you`re replying to points, are you going to reply to unanswered questions and spurned reminders put to you repeatedly in posts #31, #48, #227 and #248 ? After all, I did quote the very same report you did.

#268 by godot on November 5, 2005 12:05pm PT


Arjun: The following is for your pleasure!


I`ve already read everything about the Mitrokhin archive and the congress governments involvement in the Oil-for-food scam..

It`s only pakis who hide from the news or accuse people who post the news of hatred..

Re: #267 by Aha_Snark

[X = 0% Jews in Pakistan
Y = unfavourable opinion of Jews in pakistan
Z = it`s part of wannabe arab thing.

X exists, YET Y happens... Z

(the YET is the important bit here)

My point has been that Y has no correlation with X]



Okay, let`s play your game.

In other words, you CLAIM that you were making the point that unfavourable opinion of Jews in pakistan (Y) has nothing to do with 0% Jews in Pakistan (X).

But isn`t that EXACTLY what Arjun was saying? And he was saying that THEREFORE, the actual reason for the hatred is the wannbe-Arab mentality?

So according to you, you were AGREEING with Arjun on this point.

Which is b.s., because by the very tone (also contents, of course) you were CONTRADICTING him:


Arjun:

[Another example: Pakiland has almost 0% jews..and yet 80% of Pakis have an unfavorable opinion of jews...it`s part of the wannabe-arab thing...]


You:

[Well then, what would you say about the almost 0% ethnic Chinese/African population of India who have an unfavourable opinion of China/Africa & Africans ? Absurd, I agree. But so is the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z.]


Sorry, I`m not buying it.

Re: # 268

we are freaking tired of these congressis ..... throw them behind bars!

#267 by Aha_Snark on November 5, 2005 11:59am PT

Let me make it clear..

The fact: 80% of Pakistanis dislike Jews. That much is clear from the poll.

the possible explanations:

1. Pakistanis have some historical problems with Jews who lived among them, like they did with hindus(partition and all)...That`s unlikely because there are - and have been - close to 0% jews in Pakiland..

2. Pakiland went to war with Israel like India did with China. Didn`t happen..so that can`t be it...

So tell me...why do the pakis hate the jews?

Somehow it`s ok for the 80% of pakis to hate jews....what`s hateful is for someone to call them on their hatred...

To brrow from Jon Stewart, the facts are hateful...

p.s. Here`s a photograph that was on yahoo news(AFP or AP)..It`s not a jihadi rally..It`s a rally by university students..

Re: # 241

Hamid: “arjun, you are an idiot !”

Dude, It took you four years to figure that out! I thought you were quite intelligent.

Arjun: The following is for your pleasure!

India given reminder of ruling class penchant for pay of foreign powers

The Volcker report into the Iraqi oil-for-food scandal has been a source of deep disillusionment in India. Yet again, there is evidence showing that key members of India`s ruling class have been in the pay of foreign powers at delicate junctures in the country`s diplomatic history.

K. Natwar Singh, India`s foreign minister, and the governing Congress party stand accused by the former Federal Reserve chairman, Paul Volcker, of having been paid advocates for Saddam Hussein and of profiting from the sale of thousands of barrels of Iraqi oil acquired under the oil-for-food scheme.

``The Congress party has a lot of explaining to do,`` said Vinod Mehta, editor-in-chief of Outlook, a weekly magazine. ``Natwar`s position as foreign minister is becoming less tenable by the day. If there is an internal inquiry he`ll have to step down or move to a lighter portfolio.``

Western diplomats have been shocked that a minister of Mr Singh`s stature would allow himself to get entangled in such a risky financial relationship with the former Iraqi ruler. The affair has evoked comparisons with the way Indian politicians allowed themselves to be bought by the KGB and CIA during the cold war.

Only last month, with the publication of The Mitrokhin Archive II, a volume detailing the KGB`s dealings in the third world, did India learn the extent to which its politicians had been the paid puppets of Moscow and Washington. According to KGB files, it had 10 Indian newspapers on its payroll by 1973.

Infiltration, according to documents Vasili Mitrokhin salvaged from KGB archives, reached the highest levels of the Indian government. Bags full of banknotes were routinely taken to the house of Indira Gandhi, then prime minister, who reportedly never returned the suitcases.

As champion of non-alignment, India was the developing country on which the Soviet Union`s intelligence services lavished most effort during the cold war. It became ``a model of KGB infiltration of a third world government``, according to Oleg Kalugin, a Soviet counter-intelligence chief.

One KGB swallow aptly codenamed Neverova was particularly devastating at turning Indian diplomats. Indian ministers blithely hawked their services to all-comers.

On one occasion, Yuri Andropov, the Soviet leader in the early 1980s, turned down an offer from an Indian minister to provide information in return for $50,000 because he was already well-supplied by the Indian foreign and defence ministries.

The KGB at one point estimated it could call in favours from 30 to 40 per cent of MPs. ``The entire country was for sale; the KGB and the CIA had deeply penetrated the government,`` Mr Kalugin recalled. ``After a while neither side entrusted sensitive information to the Indians, realising their enemy would know it the next day.``

The Volcker report`s allegations suggest little may have changed. The underlying propensity of Indian officials to demand backhanders is as evident today as during the cold war. Transparency International last year ranked India 90th out of 146 countries, with a score of 2.8 out of 10 (indicating ``rampant`` corruption).

After initially offering support to his beleaguered foreign minister, Manmohan Singh, the prime minister, appeared to distance himself yesterday, saying he was ``deeply concerned`` by the ``unverified`` allegations. Congress was in opposition when the contracts were reportedly awarded and pushed the BJP government to condemn the US invasion of Iraq.

``The Volcker Committee report, as it stands today, is insufficient to arrive at any adverse or definitive conclusion,`` the prime minister`s office said in a statement interpreted as an attempt to stall opposition calls for the foreign minister`s head. ``The government is determined to go to the root of the matter and establish the truth.``

Mr Volcker has stressed it is up to each country to follow up on the report.

Natwar Singh, 74, who is close to Sonia Gandhi, Congress president, has dismissed the allegation he was a ``non-contractual beneficiary`` of the oil-for-food programme as ``baseless and untrue``. Congress has threatened Mr Volcker with legal action.

``It`s a classic Indian government response in a very sticky situation: deny and hit back,`` says Tarun Tejpal, founder of Tehelka, an investigative publication that four years ago brought down a defence minister. ``Reports end up being confused in a fog of charge and countercharge.``

Re: # 259
re: ajeya:

Arjun_m said: /// Pakiland has almost 0% jews..and yet 80% of Pakis have an unfavorable opinion of jews... ...it`s part of the wannabe-arab thing... ///

post # 48 said:

``Well then, what would you say about the almost 0% ethnic Chinese/African population of India who have an unfavourable opinion of China/Africa & Africans ? Absurd, I agree. But so is the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z. ``

So, to break it down.

X = 0% Jews in Pakistan
Y = unfavourable opinion of Jews in pakistan
Z = it`s part of wannabe arab thing.

X exists, YET Y happens... Z

(the YET is the important bit here)

My point has been that Y has no correlation with X. It is irrelevant to the discussion. Whether Z is or is not the cause of Y is NOT my point.

Clearer?

re: ranger`s post
``Dude...what patriotism ? I am not interested in the rest of the country , other 1.1 billion people. I only care about myself. And as an `upper middle class Indian from Bangalore` my standard of living is at par with the upper middle class in US.``
Hello,
Looks like we have an A$$HOLE here.
What creeps one has to deal with in Chowk!
sridhar

so how many of the pakistani losers here will be up for this? and i mean literally:

http://www.everestnews.com/pak2005/pakistanexpeditionlist2005.htm

``...But it was not before 1990 when a Pakistani (again mountaineer), Captain (now Lieutenant Colonel) Doctor Abdul Jabbar Bhatti, brought this sport to Pakistan and demonstrated his skills to Pakistanis through Pakistan Television. Even before there was another Pakistani enthusiast Sajjad Hussain Shah, who started learning this air sport during 1986 in Japan and started flying in Pakistan in 1993.

To promote three free flying sports i.e. hang gliding, paragliding and parasailing in Pakistan PAFF – Pakistan Association of Free Flying was formed later in 2002. PAFF is recognized by Civil Aviation Authority as Microlight Organization (governing body) in Pakistan. PAFF is also affiliated with International Aeronautical Federation through All Pakistan Ultralight and Aero Modeling Association.

Paragliding is a very challenging, life-threatening sport for beginners in Karakoram, better the professional do this sport in Karakoram, weather is very different and unusual strong conditions even for good pilots.

web: www.jasminetours.com

or for this?

``Pakistan Ski Expedition 2005

The Karakorams in Pakistan contains some of the most spectacular mountains in the world. Here you’ll find Laila Peak (6614 m), which is said to be the most beautiful mountain in Asia. No one has ever skied that mountain. Fredrik Ericsson and Jörgen Aamot are, this summer, taking on that challenge, as the first in the world they will try to ski descend the steep slopes of Laila Peak.

That’s not all, after Laila Peak they will continue up the Baltoro Valley to make an attempt to ski descend an unskied line on Gasherbrum 2 (8035 m), the 13th highest mountain in the world...``

since this article touches on tourism in pak, the following link has a travel diary of an english journalist following his team in pak. the dude definitely has an interesting approach to touring pak:

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/223758.html

Andrew Miller`s Pakistan tour diary - October 31 to November 6

...Eid, for the uninitiated, is like Christmas and Easter all rolled into one. It`s the end of the holy month of Ramzan - which means, among other things, no more fasting during the hours of daylight - and consequently it`s the excuse for one big party throughout the Muslim world. Officially, this year`s celebrations were to be a solemn and muted affair, in recognition of the plight of the Kashmir earthquake victims. But quite understandably, for the majority of Lahoreites, there was no passing up a chance to escape from the daily grind.


...I must have said ``Eid Mubarak`` ten thousand times if I said it once, while ``Mera Urdu bahut kamzoor hai`` (``My Urdu is a bit rubbish,`` or sentiments of that variety!) seemed a satisfactory response to anything too baffling. One chap, however, outflanked me on all fronts. His volley of questions were too painstakingly constructed to ignore, but too complex to answer clearly, and a cat`s cradle of confusion ensued. By the end of it all, he had taken it upon himself to believe I was an expectant father (my mythical son, apparently, is to be christened Freddie Flintoff!) and as a result, I had been whisked away to a nearby stall to meet his friends and drink a celebratory coke!


...Rawalpindi train station is a disarmingly organised corner of an alarmingly bedlamic town. It`s a vast white imperial building with great marbled halls, soaring archways and a sense of space, something that comes at a premium in the otherwise claustrophobic environs of the Saddar bazaar.

Given its history, it would have been incongruous had the largest garrison town in the subcontinent not had a station befitting its status. The railways were, after all, the instrument by which Britain controlled its empire, and the legendary ruggedness of the North-Western borders only increased the need for such a regimented structure.

It was a shock nonetheless, for nothing I had yet seen in Rawalpindi came close to matching these levels of decorum. Kept cool by the vast banks of pankhas hanging from the ceiling, there were smartly-dressed porters to-ing and fro-ing across the platform, balancing enormous suitcases on their heads, while gaggles of old women stood around their belongings, awaiting their cue to board.


And on the massive LED display boards that would put most British stations to shame, a series of wonderfully evocative trains were announced - the Khyber Mail and the Quetta Express among them - their majesty matched by the relic of the Steam Age that had been mounted on a plinth and positioned in the car-park outside.


Thanks to the early completion of England`s warm-up fixture, I had decided to kill an hour or two by sizing up my options for tomorrow`s trek south to Lahore. My journey from the stadium plunged me deep into the grubby heart of Rawalpindi, through the back-streets of the Rajah Bazaar, a district that is thick with the sound and smell of thousands of caged birds.

@Amir,

Nicely done analysis. The only thing that you didn`t consider is donor fatique. The tsunami, the hurricanes in the US, the crises in Africa, they all ate into the pockets of the public and the governments of the donor countries.

That said, credit must be given where it is due. A week or so ago, there was a charity hockey match between Holland and a world XI team. It was televised along with a program where people could call in and donate. During a 90-minute program/hockey match, this nation of 16 million people donated 20 million euros.

But, it`s true that Pakistan is seen as the bad-boy in the world. Like it or not, we are pariahs, and we will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. So this could be a good thing, it will teach us to rely on ourselves first and foremost, rather than looking to the heavens for the mann-o-salwa that we are so used to.

Regards,
Irfan.

faisaluno:

the world is concerned about pak and not about sri lanka is because s.l. conflict though bloody is local and its implicaiton is not worldwide whereas pak is the training ground for internatonal jihad.

Eight killed in Pakistan blast

November 05, 2005 19:10 IST


At least eight people, including a woman and three children, were killed in a blast in a house where suspected foreign terrorists, believed to be Arabs, were making bombs in Pakistan`s North Waziristan tribal region on Saturday.

Officials at Miranshah, the headquarters of the North Waziristan agency, said the blast occurred in a village Moski in Mir Ali, 20 kilometres east of Miran Shah.

However, Army spokesman Major General Shaukat Sultan confirmed the death of six people, including a woman.

He said the suspects were busy making an improvised explosive device for terrorist activity when the blast occurred.

Al those killed were foreigners. Locals said they were Arabs who were hiding at the residence of local tribeman Misbahur Rehman. However, their identity has not yet been established.

#241 by hamidm2

[ we continue to follow his tradition the same way you follow hanuman`s tradition of abducting women and then running up a coconut tree .............]


In fact, I kid my friends from Bihar about whether Hanuman was wearing any underwear when he was flying overhead, mountain in hand. And if not, was that really fair to the onlookers.

But you know what, nobody has threatened to kill me for that.

#254 by Aha_Snark on November 5, 2005 10:22am PT

I`m confused...are you agreeing with me ir disageeing?


My position is this:

The percentage population of people from country X in country Y has nothing to do with the justifiable levels of disfavour people from country Y can have for people from country X.


This is pathetic...First you erected a strawman..and now the strawman is kicking your butt..

YOU are the one who added the ``justifiable`` part..


And from post # 237 by arjun_m, (which contains an excellent point on the justifiability of hatred in the context of partition) I understand his position very clearly. To quote:``If Pakiland had a significant minority population of jews, it`s conceivable that there could be bad blood between the pure muslims from the land of the pure and jews based on a historical event...something like the partition perhaps...That doesn`t make the hatred justified but it could be a possible explanation...


What part of the ``hatred is not justified`` offers justifiability of the hatred?

An explanation is different from a justification..Justification is in your own mind...Were the 9/11 terrorists justified..YES:in their own mind...NO: in the minds of most of the civilized world..

Re: 254 vy Aha_Snark

[Arjun_m: historical events can be an explanation for hatred. Pakistani hatred of Jews is because they want to be Arabs.
Aha_Snark: You can`t say that people from country X can only understandably/validly/justifiably hate group Y if q% of people from Y live in X. ]


Nope, that is not what you said in your post# 48.

You may claim that it means the same thing, but it doesn`t.

Honesty is more important than saving face. As I keep telling my lefty friends.

Re: # 245

``sri #243 trouble is - you can take a man out of his country...but you cant take the country out of the man.``

but what about 2nd/3rd generations?