Black Pakistan and White Pakistan
Saima Shah November 7, 2005
#922 Posted by ajeya on November 12, 2005 8:38:18 pm
Re: #915 by Salim_Chauhan
[Ajeya, Brader-e-man :)
You mentioned some very interesting and quite appropriate concerns in your polite response. Let me see if I can agree with you and expand on the topic. This time I will pretend to be BOLD ]
Hmmm. Very creative.
[You bet, Ajeya Bhai! Let`s cure the damned affliction and not spread the germs ]
For that, we have to cure the sick ones AS WELL AS isolate the carriers
(carriers : infected, but without the symptoms).
[Of course, add the KKK and the Nazi Party to the list. BTW, as annoying as they are, I think the Hare Krishna are not in the same league. I wish I could say the same for Republicans, especially their right wing of Jerry, Pat, and Billy. ]
You lost me there.
[Ajeya, while there may be minute differences in style and options, as far as I know, all three of them Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (PBUT all) said basically the same thing and showed both humility and anger depending on the circumstances. ]
No, that’s rubbish.
Firstly, the Old Testament pre-dates Christ, and there is no historic evidence of how much of what is in the New Testament came from Jesus’s mouth, unlike the Quran and Muhammed.
Secondly, try and give some comparable quotes from the New Testament for the following gems from the lips of the most perfect human being:
Apostasy
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.
Terror
3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah...
8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Unbelievers
Sura 4:144: Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?
Sura 5:17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth?
Sura 5:51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Sura 8:13: When thy Lord revealed to the angels, saying, `I am with you; so make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips.
Sura 8:40: And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
Sura 9:5: And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
Sura 9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:3, And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
22:19-22; These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), “Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!”
48:13 And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
48:29, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Adultery
Adultery in Islam is a great sin punishable by stoning and sin. But a Muslim can commit adultery with his maid or a married woman if he invades her town and captures her in the war.
[al-Mu`minun 23:1-7] The believers must (eventually) win through,-2] Those who humble themselves in their prayers; 3] Who avoid vain talk; 4] Who are active in deeds of charity; 5] Who abstain from sex, 6] Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame, :7] But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors;-
[Al Nisa 4:24] “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
And you could add Hitler and Pol Pot to that list. Both of them have shown some compassionate qualities in their personal life. Does not make either of them any less of a monster. You certainly cannot lump Jesus in with Mohammed. Your Prophet (and the basis of EVERYTHING in Islam), lusted after a 6 year old little kid when he was married to 11 other women at 53. He raped many dozens of slavewomen. He forcibly had sex with (therefore raped) women whose husbands and dear ones he had killed THE SAME DAY. The list is VERY LONG. For example:
The following is the story of Safiyah Bint Huyeiy Ibn Akhtab, the Jewish woman who was captured when Muhammad’s troops attacked Kheibar and brought her to the Prophet as part of his share of the booty. This story, is reported in the Book of Tabaqat and is published also in the trusted Islamic site. http://www.muslimunited.org/topics/prophet/wives.html Safiyah was seventeen and very beautiful when Muslims killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. In the same day the Prophet of Allah wanted to sleep with her. Here is the exact text of the story.
“Safiyah was born in Medinah. She belonged to the Jewish tribe of Banu `I-Nadir. When this tribe was expelled from Medinah in the year 4 A.H, Huyaiy was one of those who settled in the fertile colony of Khaibar together with Kinana ibn al-Rabi` to whom Safiyah was married a little before the Muslims attacked Khaibar. She was then seventeen. She had formerly been the wife of Sallam ibn Mishkam, who divorced her. One mile from Khaibar. Here the Prophet married Safiyah. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: ``I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account``. The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766) Safiyah had requested the Prophet to wait till he had gone a stage away from Khaibar. ``Why?`` asked the Prophet. ``I was afraid for you on account of the Jews who still happened to be near at Khaibar!``
The reason Safiyah rejected the sexual advances of the 57-year-old Muhammad should be obvious to any objective person. Most women prefer to mourn than jump into bed with the killer of their father, husband and many relatives on the same day of their death. But the fact that the prophet of Allah could not contain his sexual urges for one day to let this young girl grieve, says a lot of his thinking and moral character.
[Jesus forcibly driving the moneylenders from the temple comes to mind. Moses enjoying the drowning of the Egyptians in the ``unparted`` Red Sea. Mohammed fighting against the pagan Meccans at Badr and Ohud. Is this any different than Krishna helping to massacre Arjun`s cousins or Ram killing the ``demon?``]
Jesus forcibly driving the moneylenders in far different than the following:
And Krishna helping Arjun in battle is VERY DIFFERENT than what your prophet did. Also, Krishna’s story is mythology.
[The Crusades were basically licenses to rape, pillage, and kill with a guaranteed ticket for heaven. The Knights Templar were as vicious as any modern Jihadist, including their willingness to die while murdering. The Jews enjoyed killing the men, women, and children of Jericho as Yahweh brought the walls down upon the playing of the horn by Joshua. Even Hamidum would become a believer after this level of divine connivance. All scriptures are full of words of wisdom, piety, tolerance, compassion, mercy, charity, and doing good. Some emphasize ``doing good`` so much that they practically order you to ``kill evil.`` Just go through the Koran, Bible, Torah, and even the Vedic scriptures. ]
You mention the Crusades. Why don’t you find out and give me ONE example in the Crusades where about a 100,000 helpless prisoners – men, women, little children – were put to the sword in a couple of days in the name of God.
[No, I have always called it horrible massacres with rape, pillage, and looting as rewards for the killers. I don`t consider Mo bin Qasim, Ghaznavi, or Ghauri to be heroes. I think they are appropriate names on those penile-shaped vehicles of mass destruction. Not to make any excuses for Muslim oppressors, but these guys were equally brutal with fellow Muslims. Please keep in mind the dirty deeds of Tamerlane, Nadir Shah, and even that great Rajput Maharaja Aurangjeb. These guys specialized in killing Muslims. Then there were Genghis Khan and Hulagu Khan, Dera Ghazi Khan, and Dera Ismail Khan - all easily summarized as the Wrath of Khan. ]
Hitler is no less a monster because he also ruthlessly executed thousands of Teutonic Germans. Also, those Muslim invaders were not the only ones to blame. Just like riots happen today, there were riots then also – only difference is that the Muslims were in charge. Indian history is rife with brutalities inflicted upon the Hindus by Muslims. Ask me, and I will narrate MANY such incidents for you.
[BTW, did I mention the Crusaders? ]
Yes, you did.
[Godfrey de Bouillon, Baldwin, Saint (?) Louis, the King of France, Richard the Lion-hearted, Frederick Barbarossa, the Knights Templar, and the Hospitalers. ]
As I mentioned before, give me examples of where prisoners and civilians were executed by the thousands AFTER winning a war.
[Ajeya, I never read Pakistani history books - I am allergic to drinking my own bath water, it may be frugal, but can be quite unhealthy. :)]
So you were responsible in the dirtying of those Pakistani History books (since you give the bath water comparison)?
[As you noticed in my list of butchers in the previous paragraph, I did not mention Hitler and Stalin once - although the latter is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Muslims and other hapless victims. Muslims have been killed in 6 and 7 figure numbers in Russia, former Yugoslavia, Algeria, China, Cambodia, and yes, India. I am not justifying the killing of Hindus, I am just stating that we all need to get in line if we are going to have bragging rights for the most number of victims. ]
Let’s examine the claims:
India: 6 and 7 figure numbers, eh? You mean, a Hindu majority king and his people killing off Muslim minorities in 6 and 7 –figure numbers?
That is a BLATANT lie, of course.
Show me where.
Russia : are you talking about Chechnya? If you are, then that is an ongoing war, and people have been killed on both side.
Former Yugoslavia: Again, muslims and christians have killed each other.
Algeria: It was a war with Islamic “freedom fighters”, if I recall correctly. Nobody was killing anybody in the name of Christ or for Christianity.
China: Where? Give me dates and numbers. And it must not have been in the name of religion.
Cambodia: Same as China.
[{``And the RSS. List out on one side the killings and bombings they have committed, and on the other side what the Muslim terrorists have done and are doing. If you think they are quite similar in scope, post it for me. I would be genuinely interested to see the comparison. And leave out the Godhra riots, because then you have to include the causal incident of men, women and children (returning from a RSS or VHP meeting) trapped and burned in the train.``}
Ajeya, again I don`t want to indulge in who died more in numbers or the nature of their horrible demise. I abhor all killing equally. ]
Of course, this is a cop-out. Because you CANNOT put the RSS and the Islamic terrorists in a comparable category. You just don’t have the facts.
[Heck, in my opinion, the slaughter of bakras, camels, chickens and cows, especially as sacrifice during Eid-ul-Bakr, is a shame. When you add up the numbers of those killed in East Punjab, Delhi, Bihar, Calcutta, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Jubbulpur, Gujrat (several times), Hyderabad, and Kashmir, I think we are well into the multi-million big league.]
In EACH of those cases, the Muslims STARTED the riots. EVERY TIME. And these were riots, not butchering minorities by the rulers and the majority population.
If you dispute that, show me where.
[Of course, Hindus have been slaughtered in West Punjab, NWFP, East Bengal, and throughout history during the RPP (rape, pillage, and plunder) campaigns of ``heroic`` Muslim conquerors. Can we not call it enough and learn to behave as decent human beings? ]
If Muslims stopped starting these riots, NOBODY WOULD EVER GET KILLED.
[Much of the blame in not being able to live side-by-side rests with Muslims, especially the extremists who want to be more Muslim in the West than they had been in the East. I blame ISNA, ICNA, AMC, UBL, Tableeghars, and Jihadists for this nonsense that is now mushrooming into burning cars. But let`s not lump them all in one dung heap. The violence in the Balkans, Caucasus, Southern Philippines, and Israel is very different from the anti-vehicular arson launched by African Muslims in France. I agree that even I feel more relaxed among Hindus, except when they start conducting SUNTAN inspections. :) ]
What you are saying is that some of these are done by Jihadi elements, and some of these muslims have genuine grievances.
But I would like to draw your attention to the following – other people also have genuine grievances. For example, the alienation faced by the muslims in France is the same as experienced by many immigrant communities in the west as well as in the east (e.g. the Mohajirs in Pakistan). But nobody else behave like the Muslims. In different continents, in vastly different cultures, in vastly different circumstances, it is ALWAYS the muslims who are involved in this. Should give you some food for though there. Ask yourself – what is it that is common? And you will find that they draw their inspiration from the words AND THE PERSONAL EXAMPLE of Muhammad.
[The strategy should be to join hands with the moderates (yes, we are in the overwhelming majority) to help in reforming Islamic teachings and behavior. We need to separate the baggage of history from the teachings of Islam. ]
While is respect and laud your sentiments, it is the teachings of Islam that I am talking about, not the baggage of history. Because herein lies the problem. Islam is supposed to be immutable, and not subject to change. If you cannot change it, you have to reject it.
[Are you kidding? Some of these Muslims don`t want to be friends with other Muslims, including me. :) In fact, when some Pakis don`t agree with me they call me an Indian pretending to be a Paki. That is the beauty of Paki imagination - they are able to wish away their problems and they are able to imagine the guilty ones to blame for their suffering. Unlike the examples you cited, I advocate friendship with all people, especially those who are considered enemies. :) ]
Yes, YOU might, but Islam does not. And THAT is the problem.
Sura 4:144: Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?
Sura 5:17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth?
[Ajaye, that was rather cruel on your part. I should have listened to my elders about certain habits that would lead to blindness. :) I live quite close to Troy, but calling me a horse is stretching it. I think that Allah has bestowed me much, but nowhere like a horse. Urstruly can get his own Trojans from Hamidum. I may have good intentions, but I am not an errand boy for anyone.]
You are, without even knowing it. You are the “soft face” of Islam that excites liberals into a state of orgasmic frenzy. But you are the fertile ground for the spread of Islam.
Because you are a carrier.
[Ajeya, Brader-e-man :)
You mentioned some very interesting and quite appropriate concerns in your polite response. Let me see if I can agree with you and expand on the topic. This time I will pretend to be BOLD ]
Hmmm. Very creative.
[You bet, Ajeya Bhai! Let`s cure the damned affliction and not spread the germs ]
For that, we have to cure the sick ones AS WELL AS isolate the carriers
(carriers : infected, but without the symptoms).
[Of course, add the KKK and the Nazi Party to the list. BTW, as annoying as they are, I think the Hare Krishna are not in the same league. I wish I could say the same for Republicans, especially their right wing of Jerry, Pat, and Billy. ]
You lost me there.
[Ajeya, while there may be minute differences in style and options, as far as I know, all three of them Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (PBUT all) said basically the same thing and showed both humility and anger depending on the circumstances. ]
No, that’s rubbish.
Firstly, the Old Testament pre-dates Christ, and there is no historic evidence of how much of what is in the New Testament came from Jesus’s mouth, unlike the Quran and Muhammed.
Secondly, try and give some comparable quotes from the New Testament for the following gems from the lips of the most perfect human being:
Apostasy
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.
Terror
3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah...
8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Unbelievers
Sura 4:144: Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?
Sura 5:17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth?
Sura 5:51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Sura 8:13: When thy Lord revealed to the angels, saying, `I am with you; so make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips.
Sura 8:40: And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
Sura 9:5: And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
Sura 9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:3, And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
22:19-22; These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), “Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!”
48:13 And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
48:29, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Adultery
Adultery in Islam is a great sin punishable by stoning and sin. But a Muslim can commit adultery with his maid or a married woman if he invades her town and captures her in the war.
[al-Mu`minun 23:1-7] The believers must (eventually) win through,-2] Those who humble themselves in their prayers; 3] Who avoid vain talk; 4] Who are active in deeds of charity; 5] Who abstain from sex, 6] Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame, :7] But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors;-
[Al Nisa 4:24] “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
And you could add Hitler and Pol Pot to that list. Both of them have shown some compassionate qualities in their personal life. Does not make either of them any less of a monster. You certainly cannot lump Jesus in with Mohammed. Your Prophet (and the basis of EVERYTHING in Islam), lusted after a 6 year old little kid when he was married to 11 other women at 53. He raped many dozens of slavewomen. He forcibly had sex with (therefore raped) women whose husbands and dear ones he had killed THE SAME DAY. The list is VERY LONG. For example:
The following is the story of Safiyah Bint Huyeiy Ibn Akhtab, the Jewish woman who was captured when Muhammad’s troops attacked Kheibar and brought her to the Prophet as part of his share of the booty. This story, is reported in the Book of Tabaqat and is published also in the trusted Islamic site. http://www.muslimunited.org/topics/prophet/wives.html Safiyah was seventeen and very beautiful when Muslims killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. In the same day the Prophet of Allah wanted to sleep with her. Here is the exact text of the story.
“Safiyah was born in Medinah. She belonged to the Jewish tribe of Banu `I-Nadir. When this tribe was expelled from Medinah in the year 4 A.H, Huyaiy was one of those who settled in the fertile colony of Khaibar together with Kinana ibn al-Rabi` to whom Safiyah was married a little before the Muslims attacked Khaibar. She was then seventeen. She had formerly been the wife of Sallam ibn Mishkam, who divorced her. One mile from Khaibar. Here the Prophet married Safiyah. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: ``I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account``. The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766) Safiyah had requested the Prophet to wait till he had gone a stage away from Khaibar. ``Why?`` asked the Prophet. ``I was afraid for you on account of the Jews who still happened to be near at Khaibar!``
The reason Safiyah rejected the sexual advances of the 57-year-old Muhammad should be obvious to any objective person. Most women prefer to mourn than jump into bed with the killer of their father, husband and many relatives on the same day of their death. But the fact that the prophet of Allah could not contain his sexual urges for one day to let this young girl grieve, says a lot of his thinking and moral character.
[Jesus forcibly driving the moneylenders from the temple comes to mind. Moses enjoying the drowning of the Egyptians in the ``unparted`` Red Sea. Mohammed fighting against the pagan Meccans at Badr and Ohud. Is this any different than Krishna helping to massacre Arjun`s cousins or Ram killing the ``demon?``]
Jesus forcibly driving the moneylenders in far different than the following:
And Krishna helping Arjun in battle is VERY DIFFERENT than what your prophet did. Also, Krishna’s story is mythology.
[The Crusades were basically licenses to rape, pillage, and kill with a guaranteed ticket for heaven. The Knights Templar were as vicious as any modern Jihadist, including their willingness to die while murdering. The Jews enjoyed killing the men, women, and children of Jericho as Yahweh brought the walls down upon the playing of the horn by Joshua. Even Hamidum would become a believer after this level of divine connivance. All scriptures are full of words of wisdom, piety, tolerance, compassion, mercy, charity, and doing good. Some emphasize ``doing good`` so much that they practically order you to ``kill evil.`` Just go through the Koran, Bible, Torah, and even the Vedic scriptures. ]
You mention the Crusades. Why don’t you find out and give me ONE example in the Crusades where about a 100,000 helpless prisoners – men, women, little children – were put to the sword in a couple of days in the name of God.
[No, I have always called it horrible massacres with rape, pillage, and looting as rewards for the killers. I don`t consider Mo bin Qasim, Ghaznavi, or Ghauri to be heroes. I think they are appropriate names on those penile-shaped vehicles of mass destruction. Not to make any excuses for Muslim oppressors, but these guys were equally brutal with fellow Muslims. Please keep in mind the dirty deeds of Tamerlane, Nadir Shah, and even that great Rajput Maharaja Aurangjeb. These guys specialized in killing Muslims. Then there were Genghis Khan and Hulagu Khan, Dera Ghazi Khan, and Dera Ismail Khan - all easily summarized as the Wrath of Khan. ]
Hitler is no less a monster because he also ruthlessly executed thousands of Teutonic Germans. Also, those Muslim invaders were not the only ones to blame. Just like riots happen today, there were riots then also – only difference is that the Muslims were in charge. Indian history is rife with brutalities inflicted upon the Hindus by Muslims. Ask me, and I will narrate MANY such incidents for you.
[BTW, did I mention the Crusaders? ]
Yes, you did.
[Godfrey de Bouillon, Baldwin, Saint (?) Louis, the King of France, Richard the Lion-hearted, Frederick Barbarossa, the Knights Templar, and the Hospitalers. ]
As I mentioned before, give me examples of where prisoners and civilians were executed by the thousands AFTER winning a war.
[Ajeya, I never read Pakistani history books - I am allergic to drinking my own bath water, it may be frugal, but can be quite unhealthy. :)]
So you were responsible in the dirtying of those Pakistani History books (since you give the bath water comparison)?
[As you noticed in my list of butchers in the previous paragraph, I did not mention Hitler and Stalin once - although the latter is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Muslims and other hapless victims. Muslims have been killed in 6 and 7 figure numbers in Russia, former Yugoslavia, Algeria, China, Cambodia, and yes, India. I am not justifying the killing of Hindus, I am just stating that we all need to get in line if we are going to have bragging rights for the most number of victims. ]
Let’s examine the claims:
India: 6 and 7 figure numbers, eh? You mean, a Hindu majority king and his people killing off Muslim minorities in 6 and 7 –figure numbers?
That is a BLATANT lie, of course.
Show me where.
Russia : are you talking about Chechnya? If you are, then that is an ongoing war, and people have been killed on both side.
Former Yugoslavia: Again, muslims and christians have killed each other.
Algeria: It was a war with Islamic “freedom fighters”, if I recall correctly. Nobody was killing anybody in the name of Christ or for Christianity.
China: Where? Give me dates and numbers. And it must not have been in the name of religion.
Cambodia: Same as China.
[{``And the RSS. List out on one side the killings and bombings they have committed, and on the other side what the Muslim terrorists have done and are doing. If you think they are quite similar in scope, post it for me. I would be genuinely interested to see the comparison. And leave out the Godhra riots, because then you have to include the causal incident of men, women and children (returning from a RSS or VHP meeting) trapped and burned in the train.``}
Ajeya, again I don`t want to indulge in who died more in numbers or the nature of their horrible demise. I abhor all killing equally. ]
Of course, this is a cop-out. Because you CANNOT put the RSS and the Islamic terrorists in a comparable category. You just don’t have the facts.
[Heck, in my opinion, the slaughter of bakras, camels, chickens and cows, especially as sacrifice during Eid-ul-Bakr, is a shame. When you add up the numbers of those killed in East Punjab, Delhi, Bihar, Calcutta, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Jubbulpur, Gujrat (several times), Hyderabad, and Kashmir, I think we are well into the multi-million big league.]
In EACH of those cases, the Muslims STARTED the riots. EVERY TIME. And these were riots, not butchering minorities by the rulers and the majority population.
If you dispute that, show me where.
[Of course, Hindus have been slaughtered in West Punjab, NWFP, East Bengal, and throughout history during the RPP (rape, pillage, and plunder) campaigns of ``heroic`` Muslim conquerors. Can we not call it enough and learn to behave as decent human beings? ]
If Muslims stopped starting these riots, NOBODY WOULD EVER GET KILLED.
[Much of the blame in not being able to live side-by-side rests with Muslims, especially the extremists who want to be more Muslim in the West than they had been in the East. I blame ISNA, ICNA, AMC, UBL, Tableeghars, and Jihadists for this nonsense that is now mushrooming into burning cars. But let`s not lump them all in one dung heap. The violence in the Balkans, Caucasus, Southern Philippines, and Israel is very different from the anti-vehicular arson launched by African Muslims in France. I agree that even I feel more relaxed among Hindus, except when they start conducting SUNTAN inspections. :) ]
What you are saying is that some of these are done by Jihadi elements, and some of these muslims have genuine grievances.
But I would like to draw your attention to the following – other people also have genuine grievances. For example, the alienation faced by the muslims in France is the same as experienced by many immigrant communities in the west as well as in the east (e.g. the Mohajirs in Pakistan). But nobody else behave like the Muslims. In different continents, in vastly different cultures, in vastly different circumstances, it is ALWAYS the muslims who are involved in this. Should give you some food for though there. Ask yourself – what is it that is common? And you will find that they draw their inspiration from the words AND THE PERSONAL EXAMPLE of Muhammad.
[The strategy should be to join hands with the moderates (yes, we are in the overwhelming majority) to help in reforming Islamic teachings and behavior. We need to separate the baggage of history from the teachings of Islam. ]
While is respect and laud your sentiments, it is the teachings of Islam that I am talking about, not the baggage of history. Because herein lies the problem. Islam is supposed to be immutable, and not subject to change. If you cannot change it, you have to reject it.
[Are you kidding? Some of these Muslims don`t want to be friends with other Muslims, including me. :) In fact, when some Pakis don`t agree with me they call me an Indian pretending to be a Paki. That is the beauty of Paki imagination - they are able to wish away their problems and they are able to imagine the guilty ones to blame for their suffering. Unlike the examples you cited, I advocate friendship with all people, especially those who are considered enemies. :) ]
Yes, YOU might, but Islam does not. And THAT is the problem.
Sura 4:144: Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?
Sura 5:17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth?
[Ajaye, that was rather cruel on your part. I should have listened to my elders about certain habits that would lead to blindness. :) I live quite close to Troy, but calling me a horse is stretching it. I think that Allah has bestowed me much, but nowhere like a horse. Urstruly can get his own Trojans from Hamidum. I may have good intentions, but I am not an errand boy for anyone.]
You are, without even knowing it. You are the “soft face” of Islam that excites liberals into a state of orgasmic frenzy. But you are the fertile ground for the spread of Islam.
Because you are a carrier.
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#921 Posted by soysauce on November 11, 2005 10:58:24 am
dirty old men with poison pen
oh they are so tacky, `cause they`re just paki.
chowk mullah, we need you back.
oh they are so tacky, `cause they`re just paki.
chowk mullah, we need you back.
#920 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 11, 2005 10:35:22 am
Behram Bhai.
As the old proverb goes ``A hand in the Bush is worth two in the bird`` , I thought that I would caution you with this saying, especially since Thanksgiving is just around the corner.
Brader-e-man, you have been far too generous in handing out the precious natural resources of our beloved country to the kaffirs next door. I am referring to your over-generous act in dispensing Paki sugarcanes to the infidels. Do you realize that there are genuine momins like Khamkhwa, Atif2, and Faisaluno who deserve the sugarcanes even more than our neighbors? I say charity begins at home and you must reserve some of the stiff ones for our own deserving people. Please don`t be so greedy for Indian rupees as was the case when Pakis were ready to peddle gas of Iranian brothers to the horrible Hindus. I say let them get their own gas.
As the old proverb goes ``A hand in the Bush is worth two in the bird`` , I thought that I would caution you with this saying, especially since Thanksgiving is just around the corner.
Brader-e-man, you have been far too generous in handing out the precious natural resources of our beloved country to the kaffirs next door. I am referring to your over-generous act in dispensing Paki sugarcanes to the infidels. Do you realize that there are genuine momins like Khamkhwa, Atif2, and Faisaluno who deserve the sugarcanes even more than our neighbors? I say charity begins at home and you must reserve some of the stiff ones for our own deserving people. Please don`t be so greedy for Indian rupees as was the case when Pakis were ready to peddle gas of Iranian brothers to the horrible Hindus. I say let them get their own gas.
#919 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 11, 2005 10:28:17 am
Humidum2, {``Sagliggina!``}
Hamidum Sahib,
Thanks for your encouragement. I am sorry that Urstruly never shows up. Perhaps he is afraid of the Trojans in your shirt pocket. :)
Serefe! Sagliginiza! to you too. :) and L`Chaim as well. :)
Hamidum Sahib,
Thanks for your encouragement. I am sorry that Urstruly never shows up. Perhaps he is afraid of the Trojans in your shirt pocket. :)
Serefe! Sagliginiza! to you too. :) and L`Chaim as well. :)
#917 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 11, 2005 8:46:26 am
I apologize for being so unintentionally bold in my response to Mr. Ajeya in #915 :)
#916 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 11, 2005 8:42:47 am
Mannyd #870, {``By the way you are in top form in some of your posts. Only a Rajput with fair Turkish genes can stand up to lynch mob of nationalists.``}
But these are easily compensated for by the Persian ones that I share with Behram Ji and Queen C&P. :) LOL.
But these are easily compensated for by the Persian ones that I share with Behram Ji and Queen C&P. :) LOL.
#915 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 11, 2005 8:37:02 am
Ajeya #872,
Ajeya, Brader-e-man :)
You mentioned some very interesting and quite appropriate concerns in your polite response. Let me see if I can agree with you and expand on the topic. This time I will pretend to be BOLD
{``Salim Bhai, This is the problem. You cannot cure a disease unless the disease is recognized.``}
You bet, Ajeya Bhai! Let`s cure the damned affliction and not spread the germs
{``This thing about we all being equally good/bad, everyone to be blamed equally, etc. logic is the stuff liberals love to spread around. But it`s not true. Otherwise you could have added the KKK and the Nazi Party to the list.``}
Of course, add the KKK and the Nazi Party to the list. BTW, as annoying as they are, I think the Hare Krishna are not in the same league. I wish I could say the same for Republicans, especially their right wing of Jerry, Pat, and Billy.
{``Take this ``all religions are the same`` theory. As far as theology is concerned, you can cite the equality theory as much as you want - I don`t care if you think that the world began 5000 years ago or a few billion. I really don`t care. You could say that the Koran and the bible are both filled with hateful words - maybe, but unquestionably, the personal examples set by Jesus and Mohammed differ by an inordinate amount, to say the very least. And the personal example of the Jews who had been a very meek and timid people who were treated badly everywhere they went (except India, of course) does not have much that is negative in it, regardless of Yahweh. ``}
Ajeya, while there may be minute differences in style and options, as far as I know, all three of them Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (PBUT all) said basically the same thing and showed both humility and anger depending on the circumstances. Jesus forcibly driving the moneylenders from the temple comes to mind. Moses enjoying the drowning of the Egyptians in the ``unparted`` Red Sea. Mohammed fighting against the pagan Meccans at Badr and Ohud. Is this any different than Krishna helping to massacre Arjun`s cousins or Ram killing the ``demon?`` The Crusades were basically licenses to rape, pillage, and kill with a guaranteed ticket for heaven. The Knights Templar were as vicious as any modern Jihadist, including their willingness to die while murdering. The Jews enjoyed killing the men, women, and children of Jericho as Yahweh brought the walls down upon the playing of the horn by Joshua. Even Hamidum would become a believer after this level of divine connivance. All scriptures are full of words of wisdom, piety, tolerance, compassion, mercy, charity, and doing good. Some emphasize ``doing good`` so much that they practically order you to ``kill evil.`` Just go through the Koran, Bible, Torah, and even the Vedic scriptures.
{``I wonder how you would have justified the Muslims` actions in India for the centuries BEFORE the RSS was even formed. I guess you would have explained the centuries of oppression, torture and bloodshed with the usual - oh THOSE things used to happen everywhere - excuse.``}
No, I have always called it horrible massacres with rape, pillage, and looting as rewards for the killers. I don`t consider Mo bin Qasim, Ghaznavi, or Ghauri to be heroes. I think they are appropriate names on those penile-shaped vehicles of mass destruction. Not to make any excuses for Muslim oppressors, but these guys were equally brutal with fellow Muslims. Please keep in mind the dirty deeds of Tamerlane, Nadir Shah, and even that great Rajput Maharaja Aurangjeb. These guys specialized in killing Muslims. Then there were Genghis Khan and Hulagu Khan, Dera Ghazi Khan, and Dera Ismail Khan - all easily summarized as the Wrath of Khan. BTW, did I mention the Crusaders? Godfrey de Bouillon, Baldwin, Saint (?) Louis, the King of France, Richard the Lion-hearted, Frederick Barbarossa, the Knights Templar, and the Hospitalers.
{``Do this as an exercise - read some history books. Not the Pakistani ones. If you actually do, you will find that there are indeed parallels to the atrocities committed by the Muslims - but they are all by household names like Hitler and Stalin.``}
Ajeya, I never read Pakistani history books - I am allergic to drinking my own bath water, it may be frugal, but can be quite unhealthy. :) As you noticed in my list of butchers in the previous paragraph, I did not mention Hitler and Stalin once - although the latter is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Muslims and other hapless victims. Muslims have been killed in 6 and 7 figure numbers in Russia, former Yugoslavia, Algeria, China, Cambodia, and yes, India. I am not justifying the killing of Hindus, I am just stating that we all need to get in line if we are going to have bragging rights for the most number of victims.
{``And the RSS. List out on one side the killings and bombings they have committed, and on the other side what the Muslim terrorists have done and are doing. If you think they are quite similar in scope, post it for me. I would be genuinely interested to see the comparison. And leave out the Godhra riots, because then you have to include the causal incident of men, women and children (returning from a RSS or VHP meeting) trapped and burned in the train.``}
Ajeya, again I don`t want to indulge in who died more in numbers or the nature of their horrible demise. I abhor all killing equally. Heck, in my opinion, the slaughter of bakras, camels, chickens and cows, especially as sacrifice during Eid-ul-Bakr, is a shame. When you add up the numbers of those killed in East Punjab, Delhi, Bihar, Calcutta, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Jubbulpur, Gujrat (several times), Hyderabad, and Kashmir, I think we are well into the multi-million big league. Of course, Hindus have been slaughtered in West Punjab, NWFP, East Bengal, and throughout history during the RPP (rape, pillage, and plunder) campaigns of ``heroic`` Muslim conquerors. Can we not call it enough and learn to behave as decent human beings?
{``You know, you will find that in every country where Muslims are living side-by-side with people of another religion - there is trouble. Whether it is America, UK, France, Russia, Israel, Belgium, Sweden, North Africa, China, Myanmar, Indonesia. The West has been insulated from the Muslims for a long time. The places where they came into side-by-side contact with them - there the Europeans are deeply alienated - Yugoslavia, Greece, Armenia. Because of this, and because of realities like the Cold War and Gulf Oil, the West has ignored all of this up to now. But now, as the Muslim immigrant population grows worldwide, a new consciousness is forming all across the western world. I used to know an Indonesian Christian. When I asked him about the Muslims in his country, he said - oh we have very good relations etc. But once he mentioned he wants to retire in Bali. I asked him why - he said that because it`s Hindu majority, and he would feel ``more relaxed``. ``}
Much of the blame in not being able to live side-by-side rests with Muslims, especially the extremists who want to be more Muslim in the West than they had been in the East. I blame ISNA, ICNA, AMC, UBL, Tableeghars, and Jihadists for this nonsense that is now mushrooming into burning cars. But let`s not lump them all in one dung heap. The violence in the Balkans, Caucasus, Southern Philippines, and Israel is very different from the anti-vehicular arson launched by African Muslims in France. I agree that even I feel more relaxed among Hindus, except when they start conducting SUNTAN inspections. :)
{``This is the thing, Salim Bhai. This is the problem. The so called ``Muslim pressure`` that one of the Pakistanis on Chowk so proudly mentioned. It is not possible to get used to it, and slowly but surely, the weaker ones in the minority non-Muslim community succumb. ``}
The strategy should be to join hands with the moderates (yes, we are in the overwhelming majority) to help in reforming Islamic teachings and behavior. We need to separate the baggage of history from the teachings of Islam.
{``You might think in a country like America, Muslims are different. Nope. The rot is setting in. I was reading about a Q&A session at an American Council of Muslims (or some similar beehive of Terrorism) where someone asked - should a Muslim be friends with a non-Muslim. The answer was of course, in the negative, but even I was shocked at the words used.``}
Are you kidding? Some of these Muslims don`t want to be friends with other Muslims, including me. :) In fact, when some Pakis don`t agree with me they call me an Indian pretending to be a Paki. That is the beauty of Paki imagination - they are able to wish away their problems and they are able to imagine the guilty ones to blame for their suffering. Unlike the examples you cited, I advocate friendship with all people, especially those who are considered enemies. :)
{``You may have good intentions, but you are blind as well. Either that, or you are the Trojan horse for the Urstruly types.``}
Ajaye, that was rather cruel on your part. I should have listened to my elders about certain habits that would lead to blindness. :) I live quite close to Troy, but calling me a horse is stretching it. I think that Allah has bestowed me much, but nowhere like a horse. Urstruly can get his own Trojans from Hamidum. I may have good intentions, but I am not an errand boy for anyone.
Ajeya, Brader-e-man :)
You mentioned some very interesting and quite appropriate concerns in your polite response. Let me see if I can agree with you and expand on the topic. This time I will pretend to be BOLD
{``Salim Bhai, This is the problem. You cannot cure a disease unless the disease is recognized.``}
You bet, Ajeya Bhai! Let`s cure the damned affliction and not spread the germs
{``This thing about we all being equally good/bad, everyone to be blamed equally, etc. logic is the stuff liberals love to spread around. But it`s not true. Otherwise you could have added the KKK and the Nazi Party to the list.``}
Of course, add the KKK and the Nazi Party to the list. BTW, as annoying as they are, I think the Hare Krishna are not in the same league. I wish I could say the same for Republicans, especially their right wing of Jerry, Pat, and Billy.
{``Take this ``all religions are the same`` theory. As far as theology is concerned, you can cite the equality theory as much as you want - I don`t care if you think that the world began 5000 years ago or a few billion. I really don`t care. You could say that the Koran and the bible are both filled with hateful words - maybe, but unquestionably, the personal examples set by Jesus and Mohammed differ by an inordinate amount, to say the very least. And the personal example of the Jews who had been a very meek and timid people who were treated badly everywhere they went (except India, of course) does not have much that is negative in it, regardless of Yahweh. ``}
Ajeya, while there may be minute differences in style and options, as far as I know, all three of them Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (PBUT all) said basically the same thing and showed both humility and anger depending on the circumstances. Jesus forcibly driving the moneylenders from the temple comes to mind. Moses enjoying the drowning of the Egyptians in the ``unparted`` Red Sea. Mohammed fighting against the pagan Meccans at Badr and Ohud. Is this any different than Krishna helping to massacre Arjun`s cousins or Ram killing the ``demon?`` The Crusades were basically licenses to rape, pillage, and kill with a guaranteed ticket for heaven. The Knights Templar were as vicious as any modern Jihadist, including their willingness to die while murdering. The Jews enjoyed killing the men, women, and children of Jericho as Yahweh brought the walls down upon the playing of the horn by Joshua. Even Hamidum would become a believer after this level of divine connivance. All scriptures are full of words of wisdom, piety, tolerance, compassion, mercy, charity, and doing good. Some emphasize ``doing good`` so much that they practically order you to ``kill evil.`` Just go through the Koran, Bible, Torah, and even the Vedic scriptures.
{``I wonder how you would have justified the Muslims` actions in India for the centuries BEFORE the RSS was even formed. I guess you would have explained the centuries of oppression, torture and bloodshed with the usual - oh THOSE things used to happen everywhere - excuse.``}
No, I have always called it horrible massacres with rape, pillage, and looting as rewards for the killers. I don`t consider Mo bin Qasim, Ghaznavi, or Ghauri to be heroes. I think they are appropriate names on those penile-shaped vehicles of mass destruction. Not to make any excuses for Muslim oppressors, but these guys were equally brutal with fellow Muslims. Please keep in mind the dirty deeds of Tamerlane, Nadir Shah, and even that great Rajput Maharaja Aurangjeb. These guys specialized in killing Muslims. Then there were Genghis Khan and Hulagu Khan, Dera Ghazi Khan, and Dera Ismail Khan - all easily summarized as the Wrath of Khan. BTW, did I mention the Crusaders? Godfrey de Bouillon, Baldwin, Saint (?) Louis, the King of France, Richard the Lion-hearted, Frederick Barbarossa, the Knights Templar, and the Hospitalers.
{``Do this as an exercise - read some history books. Not the Pakistani ones. If you actually do, you will find that there are indeed parallels to the atrocities committed by the Muslims - but they are all by household names like Hitler and Stalin.``}
Ajeya, I never read Pakistani history books - I am allergic to drinking my own bath water, it may be frugal, but can be quite unhealthy. :) As you noticed in my list of butchers in the previous paragraph, I did not mention Hitler and Stalin once - although the latter is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Muslims and other hapless victims. Muslims have been killed in 6 and 7 figure numbers in Russia, former Yugoslavia, Algeria, China, Cambodia, and yes, India. I am not justifying the killing of Hindus, I am just stating that we all need to get in line if we are going to have bragging rights for the most number of victims.
{``And the RSS. List out on one side the killings and bombings they have committed, and on the other side what the Muslim terrorists have done and are doing. If you think they are quite similar in scope, post it for me. I would be genuinely interested to see the comparison. And leave out the Godhra riots, because then you have to include the causal incident of men, women and children (returning from a RSS or VHP meeting) trapped and burned in the train.``}
Ajeya, again I don`t want to indulge in who died more in numbers or the nature of their horrible demise. I abhor all killing equally. Heck, in my opinion, the slaughter of bakras, camels, chickens and cows, especially as sacrifice during Eid-ul-Bakr, is a shame. When you add up the numbers of those killed in East Punjab, Delhi, Bihar, Calcutta, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Jubbulpur, Gujrat (several times), Hyderabad, and Kashmir, I think we are well into the multi-million big league. Of course, Hindus have been slaughtered in West Punjab, NWFP, East Bengal, and throughout history during the RPP (rape, pillage, and plunder) campaigns of ``heroic`` Muslim conquerors. Can we not call it enough and learn to behave as decent human beings?
{``You know, you will find that in every country where Muslims are living side-by-side with people of another religion - there is trouble. Whether it is America, UK, France, Russia, Israel, Belgium, Sweden, North Africa, China, Myanmar, Indonesia. The West has been insulated from the Muslims for a long time. The places where they came into side-by-side contact with them - there the Europeans are deeply alienated - Yugoslavia, Greece, Armenia. Because of this, and because of realities like the Cold War and Gulf Oil, the West has ignored all of this up to now. But now, as the Muslim immigrant population grows worldwide, a new consciousness is forming all across the western world. I used to know an Indonesian Christian. When I asked him about the Muslims in his country, he said - oh we have very good relations etc. But once he mentioned he wants to retire in Bali. I asked him why - he said that because it`s Hindu majority, and he would feel ``more relaxed``. ``}
Much of the blame in not being able to live side-by-side rests with Muslims, especially the extremists who want to be more Muslim in the West than they had been in the East. I blame ISNA, ICNA, AMC, UBL, Tableeghars, and Jihadists for this nonsense that is now mushrooming into burning cars. But let`s not lump them all in one dung heap. The violence in the Balkans, Caucasus, Southern Philippines, and Israel is very different from the anti-vehicular arson launched by African Muslims in France. I agree that even I feel more relaxed among Hindus, except when they start conducting SUNTAN inspections. :)
{``This is the thing, Salim Bhai. This is the problem. The so called ``Muslim pressure`` that one of the Pakistanis on Chowk so proudly mentioned. It is not possible to get used to it, and slowly but surely, the weaker ones in the minority non-Muslim community succumb. ``}
The strategy should be to join hands with the moderates (yes, we are in the overwhelming majority) to help in reforming Islamic teachings and behavior. We need to separate the baggage of history from the teachings of Islam.
{``You might think in a country like America, Muslims are different. Nope. The rot is setting in. I was reading about a Q&A session at an American Council of Muslims (or some similar beehive of Terrorism) where someone asked - should a Muslim be friends with a non-Muslim. The answer was of course, in the negative, but even I was shocked at the words used.``}
Are you kidding? Some of these Muslims don`t want to be friends with other Muslims, including me. :) In fact, when some Pakis don`t agree with me they call me an Indian pretending to be a Paki. That is the beauty of Paki imagination - they are able to wish away their problems and they are able to imagine the guilty ones to blame for their suffering. Unlike the examples you cited, I advocate friendship with all people, especially those who are considered enemies. :)
{``You may have good intentions, but you are blind as well. Either that, or you are the Trojan horse for the Urstruly types.``}
Ajaye, that was rather cruel on your part. I should have listened to my elders about certain habits that would lead to blindness. :) I live quite close to Troy, but calling me a horse is stretching it. I think that Allah has bestowed me much, but nowhere like a horse. Urstruly can get his own Trojans from Hamidum. I may have good intentions, but I am not an errand boy for anyone.
#918 Posted by hamidm2 on November 11, 2005 8:53:50 am
Re: # 915
salim mian,
............. that was a good post !.......... when in troy do come and visit and we will have some raki - i am getting tired of being stood up by urstruly ............
..............sagligina !
salim mian,
............. that was a good post !.......... when in troy do come and visit and we will have some raki - i am getting tired of being stood up by urstruly ............
..............sagligina !
#911 Posted by Dash_Dot on November 11, 2005 7:25:49 am
he said open sasami
tahmed32 said you men shashami
shashimi, said salim
guys its all halim
haram ki kaam
zindagi bhar kaam
araam ki kami
sab kamina hi kamine
shushi belushi
bebaksh
dear o dear
this damn thing drones
does not make sense
lets get to 100 in quick time
and call it a day
noa weekend yousilly old goose
tahmed32 said you men shashami
shashimi, said salim
guys its all halim
haram ki kaam
zindagi bhar kaam
araam ki kami
sab kamina hi kamine
shushi belushi
bebaksh
dear o dear
this damn thing drones
does not make sense
lets get to 100 in quick time
and call it a day
noa weekend yousilly old goose
#910 Posted by tahmed32 on November 11, 2005 7:02:34 am
hamidm #906
The Ballad of Bahram
Bahram Atash
With his sugarcane
Lash
Gave the thugs forty whacks
When he saw what he had done
He gave them another forty one
Then he looked around some more]
But thugs were there no more
No doubt they will be back
And so will Atash
With his lash
The Ballad of Bahram
Bahram Atash
With his sugarcane
Lash
Gave the thugs forty whacks
When he saw what he had done
He gave them another forty one
Then he looked around some more]
But thugs were there no more
No doubt they will be back
And so will Atash
With his lash
#914 Posted by Dash_Dot on November 11, 2005 7:28:25 am
Re: # 910
the man has disappeared Tahmed32. He must have used up his energies and is looking for some energising bunnies.
Are you going to get him some.
the man has disappeared Tahmed32. He must have used up his energies and is looking for some energising bunnies.
Are you going to get him some.
#913 Posted by Dash_Dot on November 11, 2005 7:28:19 am
Re: # 910
the man has disappeared Tahmed32. He must have used up his energies and is looking for some energising bunnies.
Are you going to get him some.
the man has disappeared Tahmed32. He must have used up his energies and is looking for some energising bunnies.
Are you going to get him some.
#912 Posted by Dash_Dot on November 11, 2005 7:27:55 am
Re: # 910
the man has disappeared Tahmed32. He must have used up his energies and is looking for some energising bunnies.
Are you going to get him some.
the man has disappeared Tahmed32. He must have used up his energies and is looking for some energising bunnies.
Are you going to get him some.
#909 Posted by tahmed32 on November 11, 2005 6:56:50 am
dash dash dash dot dot dot dash dash dash (or dash for short) #907: very well my friend. we shall meet at 990 or so. perhaps behram will stir up things a bit with the sugarcane so the meter reachs 990 before the weekend starts (I hate working over weekends!!)
#906 Posted by hamidm2 on November 11, 2005 5:12:31 am
the root cause .........
.............. can someone please remind me what is it that behram said that got the horrible hindoos so worked up ???? ............. it must have been something really really bad because i have not seen the saffron brigade this excited since the gujarat riots or the first release of linux ............ what was it ?......... i`d like to know so that i can throw it out when things get too humdrum ...........
#908 Posted by Dash_Dot on November 11, 2005 5:33:11 am
Re: # 906
you will have to plumb the depths for this hamidm2....even the barrel is shallow and youwill not find...maybe if you go through some IPCA, followed by some good John Smith, then a decent Merlot, topping with Kentucky hooch, and then for the grand finally a port (all barrels and nothing less), you might, just might attain salvation and nirvana and find THE ROOT of all the fruits!
you will have to plumb the depths for this hamidm2....even the barrel is shallow and youwill not find...maybe if you go through some IPCA, followed by some good John Smith, then a decent Merlot, topping with Kentucky hooch, and then for the grand finally a port (all barrels and nothing less), you might, just might attain salvation and nirvana and find THE ROOT of all the fruits!
