The Trial of a Nation

iron_mask #68

My #56 was written in response to your request for a comparison of uranium and plutonium from the prospective bomb-maker’s point of view. Some of it is immediately relevant to the Xerox Khan conundrum; some less so but still useful information to have around. BTW, when I referred to ‘industrial scale’ production of enriched uranium, I was talking about the scale of the effort, not the final quantities of uranium produced. You need a setup with several thousand ultracentrifuges – well above lab or pilot plant scale – running continuously, to produce tens of kilograms of weapons-grade uranium a year.

Here is one of the reasons I was hinting at plutonium. About a month after Chagai, a report appeared in a couple of different places in the Australian press stating that American sniffer aircraft had detected the isotopic signatures characteristic of a plutonium device in the air above Chagai.

The report went on to pin the blame on India for supposedly having allowed the Pokharan-2 site to vent radioactivity thus contaminating the air above Chagai. That is a suspicious explanation – do prevailing winds blow east to west from Rajasthan to Baluchistan? The simpler explanation is that at least one plutonium device was tested in Baluchistan in May 1998. Pakistan was not known to have an unsafeguarded full plutonium cycle at that time. Khan’s primary claim to fame was uranium enrichment. Although he is a man of many talents and later diversified into developing and building Pakistan’s indigenous ballistic missiles, he doesn’t seem to have ever mentioned being involved with plutonium in his various boastful public pronouncements.

There are some other possible explanations for that report: (1) It is plant with just enough tantalizing clues to lead a baying bloodhound wildly astray (2) Pakistan tested at least one plutonium device, provided by China, or perhaps North Korea) in Chagai (3) Pakistan had a plutonium breeding reactor and concealed reprocessing capability tucked somewhere, used it to fabricate a device which they tested (4) …? My personal preference is for (2)

Urstruly:

OK I take your point. Let us assume that President Musharraf is a scoundrel and that he himself deserves gallows.

Now having agreed to that, don’t you think it is even more impressive that a “wretched scoundrel” like him pardoned AQK. It proves that he pardoned him under great pressure from the people of Pakistan. Therefore, people of Pakistan are actually capable of changing decisions of the “dictator”.

So why should we now play the same raag of jahil mullahs? Mullahs have been defeated on all the accusations that they had against this dictator, such as:

1. Pakistan will send military to Iraq
2. Pakistan will stop its nuclear development program
3. Pakistan will stop its missile development program
4. Pakistan will allow US military to enter FATA.

Having spoken harsh words against jahil Mullah, let me add that I am not suggesting we become secular. Many Pakistanis at this time are suggesting secularism as a panacea for all ills. I respect their views. We, Pakistanis are no graduates of the Great School of Brain-Washed Brigade from across the border. We should always allow difference of opinion and healthy debates. I am also suggesting that we are an ideological state like Israel, but the way to go forward is to work closely with Muslim countries within and outside of OIC. Alhamdolillah, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Turkey and even Iran are working on many areas together. If you look around in international political arena and investments in Pakistan, you will figure that out.

Btw, I also believe that political parties like Muttahida Majlis Amal are also doing a great job by keeping “wretched dictator” under pressure.

Finally, in trial of the Nation, the nation has proved itself innocent. For anti-Pakistani and anti-Muslim lobby, this avenue turned out to have a dead end.

Romair

What you state about security arrangements at Kahuta seems apiece with the impression one gets from reading reports in international magazines etc.

In general, Pakistani ingenuity in this field has been remarkable and praiseworthy. She had as much of a case to acquire and protect its nuclear weapons as any other country.

Anti-semite element is fascinating, but not implausible. However, I personally haven`t seen much of any discussion on this matter.

Information about China as the source of a fool-proof blueprint for a nuclear weapon came from American records. It seems Americans obtained a copy of exactly the same Chinese blueprint that Pakistan had, and then confronted Pakistan with it at the highest levels.

Although Zia-Ul-Haq is much maligned these days, he knew how to deal with Reagan, and probably served Pakistan`s nuclear cause well.

#85 by Urstruly
“The scientists unanimously told him that it was impossible. At that moment Bhutto said that then he would find someone who would make it possible and nation will face this challenge even if it would have to eat grass.”

Then my info is more accurate. The meeting never took place in Multan or even in 1972.

There was reportedly a meeting after the Indian nuke tests and maybe the meeting that you are referring to took place in 1974.

Urstruly, you know how to read stories but every time you read something which starts with “The scientist unanimously told” has some element of speculation and exaggeration in it.

In 1974 many Pakistani scientists were involved with the Karachi nuke plant for the last six or seven years. All of them were educated at international universities and were trained in Canada and were also visiting Canada every year to update their credentials.

They were not going to say “unanimously” something to the prime Minister of Pakistan knowing fully well that the PM was asking a question seriously. By 1974, there was nothing secret about the nuke process and all these scientists were aware of the process. It was only a matter of getting the right equipment and technology. So they could not have been unanimous. These scientists were later absorbed in the KRL. There were other reasons for AQkhan’s appointment.

#88 by malik99 on December 2, 2005 10:37am PT


So Pakistanis dont need to explain to anyone, or be defensive


then why is A.Q. Khan in the paki doghouse?

Whether Pakistan obtained/developed nuclear technology through hook or through crook, through local ingenuity or through stealing, these are all moot points. This world is not a fair and just place - as the daily events of the world prove every day. Stealing and killings do occur. Rosenbergs sold american nuclear secrets to russia in the 40s, which many believe greatly aided Soviet nuclear plans. Soviets never explained that to anyone. Besides, no one died if indeed AQ Khan stole nuclear formula. In fact, an argument could be made that lives were saved by creating a balanced deterrence at india / pakistan border.

So Pakistanis dont need to explain to anyone, or be defensive about how Pakistan obtained nuclear technology. The fact that Pakistan has a technology that 191 other countries in the world dont is a fact on the ground.

As for AQ Khan, what his role was or was not, again is a matter of opinion. But there is no denying that, whether deservedly or undeservedly, his mere presence did move and galvanize a generation of young pakistani students regarding nuclear field. Personally in my case, I did briefly consider going to nuclear engineering or physics for my undergraduate. And I know that the only personality that inspired me towards these fields which I knew little about at that time was that of AQ Khan`s.

#83 by iron_mask

Did you even read what Bong was asking or is it part of saving your false and liar god from embarrassment?

“But then if you don`t mind being a parrot with nothing between the ears...you are free to always toe the GOP line!”

I will take that instead of lying about Shamiana and posting “high school calculus and serber`s `delightful` book” type of information.

Re: # 84 hey don`t take it out on me. I was just making an observation there. I dont have any gods and could care less which god said what to which god lesser or fatter....doesnt matter

I had a chat with a very senior retired banker, regarding this. Apparently, some Pakistani banks were involved in these projects, as many of the parts were obtained through front companies, set up in places like Dubai..........He gave me some very interesting information. I know him quite well and thus have no reason to doubt him.

The way Pakistan obtained the nukes is stuff of legends. As is the way it has protected it. Kahuta is literally impregnable. Even if Pakistani aircraft get close, they will get shot down. The Pakistan Air Force is not allowed to fly even its own planes over various areas: Chashma, Wah, Kahuta etc.

I was a student in Sargodha, and one night we saw countless airplanes take off from the PAF base, there. It was as if the whole Air Force was airborne. The next day, the story was that Israel had planned an attack, which was detected by Pakistani Air Defence officers in Saudi Arabia, who had informed Pakistan. And, as per plan, the whole PAF went airborne in the middle of the night. Don`t know how credible that is. NHK would know better. He may have been one of the pilots airborne...........

Anyways, Pakistanis, according to this banker, did not get their technology from China. In fact, Pakistan is quite advanced, and China has been getting info from Pakistan, on occassion, on how to reverse engineer things. Pakistanis got their info from where:

From Germans!

From WW II type retired anti-Semitic German scientists, spread out all over the world. These guys are anti-Israel and wanted some country to have nuclear capability, in an anti-Jewish fashion. I found that quite interesting. He said, the front companies were set up in UAE. Pakistani banks would finance them and provide the money. And these Germans would then handle the rest, through their know-how and contacts...........

In that sense, AQ Khan is, no doubt, a hero. However, like many Pakistani heroes, he got carried away. I don`t think he went off on his own. I think the Pakistan govt. was working with Iran and North Korea. This is not against int`l law. USA works and trades nuclear know-how with Israel and Europe at much higher levels. It, in fact, deploys complete missile systems in Europe. This would be like Pakistan deploying missiles in Iran. I believe India exchanges with Israel also. And apparently, at one time with Iraq (?), as well. And will now be exchanging with the USA.

My guess is AQ Khan was probably officially involved in these govt. exchanges. However, somewhere along the lines, he started his own, ``small business,`` on this side. He eventually got caught. Pakistan`s govts` contacts with Iran and North Korea were also discovered. Pakistan had not broken any int`l law, but, ironically the countries that themselves indulge in nuclear exchange the most (the West) put a lot of pressure on Pakistan. Pakistan had to buckle. It blamed everything on AQ Khan. Made a deal with him that it would not prosecute his, ``small business`` if he shut it down and if he kept his mouth shut on Pakistan`s dealings, and took all the blame...........

Re: # 81 Romair

i respect your opinion but please try to avoid passing unsubstantiated government propaganda clad as your opinion.

``I want your views on it.``

Bong,

all views on this can only come from the GOP.

Re: # 80

There is something independence of mind.

But then if you don`t mind being a parrot with nothing between the ears...you are free to always toe the GOP line!

Re: # 82

``There is something independence of mind. `` should read

``There is something called the independence of mind. ``

#77

Of course I dont expect GOP to tell me. I want your views on it.

I am not well versed in nuclear stuff but my understanding is that India`s 1974 bomb was made from reprocessing spent fuel in Canada aided Tarapur atomic reactor. Canadian reactor was light water reactor unlike pressurized heavy water reactors India builds for its energy needs. Light water reactors need much more enriched fuel than heavy water reactors. India produces its nuclear bombs from reprocessing spent fuel.

India has very little natural Uranium for its own needs therefore import it. But India has largest deposit of thorium (found in sands of Kerala) India is building fast breeder reactors which uses Thorium as clad to uranium core. Reaction converts thorium into Uranium, thus these reactors produce more fuel that they consume
.

I looked at the link that Bakwas khan provided in his post #66

An article or posting is not authentic when the material facts in the article are not verified and are patently wrong. The Wisconsin Project is not a credible source on this issue because they did not verify the information they posted on their web site and now both A-dull-a proven liar- and this bakwas khan are reproducing it like some gospel truth.
Many things stand out like a sore thumb.

First lie:
“1965: Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto announces ``If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry. But we will get one of our own.``

Bhutto was not prime minister of Pakistan in 1965. Every one knows that and any site which claims to publish the timeline of the Pak nuke project should have verified the info before posting it.

Lie 2: Bhutto did not make any statement as Foreign Minister in 1965 about eating grass and leaves. He made that speech in 1974 when he was the prime minister of Pakistan and it was after the Indian nuke tests.

Third Lie: 1972: Z.A. Bhutto gathers Pakistan`s top scientists at Multan, and orders them to build an atomic bomb.

There is no record of that meeting and why would Bhutto have this meeting in Multan of all places where there are no research labs or scientists of any kind. It is the same meeting that A-Dull mentioned in his post as taken place of all places under a Shamiana.. That is the biggest joke that I have read in a long time. Bhutto had access to some great facilities in Multan cantonment. He had access to the Circuit House and the Guest Houses all over Multan.

Bhutto was friends with the Qureshis of Multan and he loved to stay with them so that they could have drinks in the evening. The Qureshi house could have easily handled any meeting…Why under a shamiana?


Tahmed #75 and r.a.Janjua #64


“janjua #64 ``the effort started in the 60s - this khota, a.q. khan made some contributions to the program but nothing compared to others - munir ahmad, samar mubarkmand –“

There is lots of misinformation that is part of the effort to cloud the whole issue to keep it under control.

Dr. Munir Ahmed Khan had nothing to do with the Pak nuke bomb. Munir Khan was the chairman of the PAEC but he was not considered a good bet to help Pakistan in this area. I am not going to go into the reasons for this but he was not the person to lead this effort. That’s why Bhutto looked outside of Pakistan. Dr. Qadeer first wrote a letter to Bhutto and then met him personally and after long discussions between the GHQ and Bhutto he was selected to lead the effort, leaving both the PAEC and Dr. Munir Khan completely out of the loop. The PAEC was not even in charge of this project. The project was outside of PAEC overview and that irked Dr. Munir. AQ Khan hired scientists from the PAEC and two of them came from the Karachi Nuke plant. They were given separate employment contracts and were asked to never contact the PAEC on this issue. They resigned from the PAEC when they took up jobs with AQKhan.

Some of those scientists were later arrested with AQ Khan last year. All of them still have the Army guard posted at their homes and pictures of all visitors are still taken by the military intelligence despite the fact that most of these scientists had nothing to do with what happened with the so called Qadeer enterprise.

I certainly have more info on the working of the KRL. I wish I could post that all. Maybe someday that will happen.

#76 Bong
``Well then why dont you tell us:``

why should they tell you or anyone?

This program has always been under the top security and there is no reason to disclose the info for public consumption. But the people in IAEA and in the concerned US depts surely know that.