Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

To quote from the article:

Suryavanshi is optimistic: “My men are lured by cash, kind and help. But I’m sure they will reconvert to Hinduism if some Hindu group offers the same benefits. Also, the government should chalk out some measures to curb this practice.”

Isn`t it ironic that it takes monetary and worldly benefits for people to become religious (convert to some form of belief) or think about that which is beyond this world!! The love of God must be unconditional and selfless - or else no matter how rich one is, he is a beggar before god.

From the perspective of a Hindu concerned at the squalid state of his religion I can say this: On the one hand there is the Rev. Athavale and his revolutionary Swadhyaya movement that seeks to make people more `godly` without inducing any form of incentive, and on the other Vivekananda has always said that Religion cannot be born in one with an empty stomach - it is quite the conundrum on how Hinduism is not merely to sustain itself but become as vibrant, powerful and rational as it was in the past.

But the inherent strength of Hinduism is its magnanimity and ability to assmilate and absorb (not tolerate - tolerance is a cheap word). If the Hindus would be open enough to accept Christ and Mohammed as Avataras, of which we have had several - it would nullify the purpose of conversion. This much advice to Hindus.

But I also take exception to the Hindu baiters.
Without Hinduism, what is India? The country is secular not because of the 50 year old Constitution of India but the 5000 year old religion. Preserve it. I have never known a predominantly Muslim or Christian country with as many diverse religions or cults as India.
Those fools who come from abroad to India to preach exclusive and seclusive faiths more often than not become intelligent and fall in love with India and get lost in its diversity. They begin to respect India for its Hindu-born heritage. Ofcourse, it is upon the Hindus to present themselves properly something which they are not doing today.

A consequence of bad presentation, is that we have so many who are lured by seclusive faiths - especially of the Semitic kind. Try and preach Christianity in Iran, they will rebuff you - They are proud people - of their culture and their religion. We used to be this way but we have lost it. It is upon us to get it back.

#67.
If you read my post its about orphanage and thus the question of parents do not arise. You do not know or understand the treatment metted out there nor naive behaviour of kids. According to Indian laws you are not supposed to engaged in converting activities with anyone younger than 18 y.o. But still the missionaries break the laws and do that.
#69.
I do not understand your soviet state comment.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is duck.

anyway, nice chatting with you. May we all pay less attention to the welfare of religion and more to the welfare of people.

Have a good evening.

#64 samosa: when i said people have a right to be cheated if they want, that is what freedom is all about. otherwise you would have a soviet state (and that failed after 70 years of attempts to police every damn thing in an individuals life), or a desi nation (where people think it is their business to decide what God (or Brahman or Allah) wants and force it on others.

If the green cloth salesman convinces me, I will buy green cloth. If the saffron salesman convinces me, I will buy that. If I dont want to waste time with salesmen, I will tell both to buzz off. But no one will decide for me whether or not I should be allowed to listen to those salesmen to begin with. (And this is assuming that missionaries are pure salesmen, when in fact we know they are far more than that).

samosa #57 a kid would have to be really dumb to believe such a thing (kids are not that dumb, as you may recall from your younger days). and where were the kids parents? wouldnt they set the record straight and tell the kid that God (or Brahman) may be Almighty, but He is not a mechanic.

Re: # 60
again I am not disputing one should let the individual have the right to decide for himself on such personal matters as religion. I am against using lying, cheating and bribing to convert.
Do you think there is a spiritual aspect to human? Also, do you think there is an emotional aspect of human? Maybe not, that is why you said only about direct and clear physical or property damage. There is a huge fallacy in your statement that people have right to be cheated if they want. I do not think anyone wants to cheated otherwise it is not called cheating.

tahmed32:

``again, i am not saying the hindus should convert``

Maybe, you did not say that in so many words but most people interacting with you certainly thought that this is what you were saying.

tahmed32:

``what i am saying is that everyone - including hindus, including muslims - has the RIGHT to convert if he/she thinks that is in his/her best personal interest. I am sure the good Lord doesnt care - why should you or I?``

And who disagrees with that statement?

dm: again, i am not saying the hindus should convert, so i wont say muslim women should convert. what i am saying is that everyone - including hindus, including muslims - has the RIGHT to convert if he/she thinks that is in his/her best personal interest. I am sure the good Lord doesnt care - why should you or I?

avkrishna #59 I dont have a problem with hindus trying to convert people, as long as they try to convince the other person. I said that early on in the discussion. That is how the european jews are supposed to have become jewish - the inhabitants of the black sea area invited a christian, a muslim and a jew to convince their king, who then decided he preferred judaism.

All i am saying is that the same right accorded to that king be accorded to everyone.

tahmed32:

I am not denying the ugly realities of India, only differing with you that conversion is the solution to that ugliness. Nor am I suggesting that you are denying the ugly reality of Pakistan. But what I am saying is that you do not suggest the same remedy for removing the ugliness of Pakistan as you do for India. I specifically gave the example of Islamic laws which do not give equal rights to women. I am aware that you do not agree with that aspect of Islam but have you ever suggested that women should rebel against Islam and convert to another religion to seek a better status? No, you haven`t and rightly so and have correctly pointed out that Muslims should ignore Islamic laws and concentrate instead on what you believe to be its essential message. You might want to give the same advice to Hindus and ask them to get rid of their caste system rather than asking them to get rid of their lower caste people.

samosa: #58 People have a right to be cheated if they want. :-) That is what a free society is all about. And that is what 70 years of experimenting with socialism has taught the world.

So, unless some activity does clear and direct physical harm to someone or to someone`s property, one should let the individual have the right to decide for himself on such personal matters as religion.

# 46
I took offense to the tactics they used and how my religion is demeaned in that process. Not the objective..

Since you have asked me all these questions, let me ask you one...

What is your objection to the Hindu groups using the same tactics and trying to re-convert the people back from Christianity? Your posts seem to indicate that you dont like anyone converting into Hinduism. (correct me if I am wrong),

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Re: # 56
tahmed32, no one (atleast not me) is against the right of individual to convert if he/she wishes. All I am against is bribing, lying and cheating people to convert. Just like pointed out in this article about white powder (i.e. crocin or anacin). while it seems you are okay with that.

Re: # 54
You want an examples of lies:
1.] Priest would take the kids at orphanage for a picnic in a bus. While returning the bus would suddenly stops. The priest would tell the kids to ask for assitance from hindu gods. They would but still the bus would not start. And finally the priest would tell kids the ask Jesus for asssitance and miraculously the bus starts.

I can quote more from my experience easily.
Even the revered mother teresa would baptize peoples who are about to die without their approval or knowledge.

If you think lying and bribing people is okay then I do not know what else to say.

dm #55 what i am arguing for is not conversions, but in the right of the individual to convert if he/she wishes. that is all, so please dont read more into it than what i am saying.

and i never claimed that pakistanis were saints. i was in fact referring to the mukhtaran mai case as an example of this ``desi babu`` disgusting attitude of looking down on the weak and downtrodden in society. i recognize the ugly realities of pakistan. you are not just not recognizing the ugly realities of india (at least in this case), you are actually defending them!