Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

samosa#38:

Is there a law against foreing missionaries? If not, they have the right to do their missionary activities. In actual fact, I believe that India is now a big exporter of christian priests to countries like Canada, where church is not a very popular profession.

If India does not want foreign missionaries, all it has to do a pass a legislation banning them, as several countries have done. But doing so would create an image problem for India.

Re: # 37 DM
Mostly everyone would follow similar line of thoughts.
Indian constitution gives freedome to practice as well propagate ones faith. But does this allow foreigners to do the same. Can there be different rights for foreigners and Indian citizen?
Most people are agast to foreigners converting people by lies and bribes.

Poolani:

Thanks for starting a debate on an imporant subject. Most of the points I wish to make have already been made by stuka and others. Still, here is my thinking on this issue.

Freedom of faith is meaningless if it does not mean freedom to change one`s faith, too. I believe that the Indian constitution gives freedom to practice as well as propagate one`s religion, which implies that missionary activities are well within the law.

I happen to believe that missionary activities are good for Hindus, too. The sword of conversion is needed for the Hindu society to get rid of its ailments, so that there is no social incentive for anyone to leave the Hindu fold.

I also believe that Muslims, Christians and Pseudo-Marxists have no reason to complain when Hindu missionaries start to imitate Christian Missionaries and are providing medical, educational and social services to the tribals to prevent their conversion or to reconvert them. If in the process of competitive missionary activities, the lot of the poor tribals improves in some ways, so much the better for both tribals and India.

While individual conversions are fine, what about group conversions? In that case, it is quite clear that the conversion is not due to a change in faith but because of socio-economic factors. Should such activity be subject to state regulation?

I wish people had not brought Pakistan in this debate since it has openly declared itself to be an Islamic Republic and should not be judged by the same criteria that a secular republic should be judged with. But since it has been brought, it is legitimate to ask how many Muslims in Pakistan have declared themselves Murtaad since 1947 and lived to tell the tale? Given the bad publicity that Islam is getting in the world these days, there must be some who are tempted to find another religion superior to Islam. Please do not give unverifiable facts, such as my neighbour, my teahcer or someone else did it. Can someone tell about a well known case of a Muslim who converted to another religion in Pakistan? Hypothetically, what would happen to Shoaib Akhtar if he declared that he has converted to Christianity? I am quite aware that many Muslims openly declare themselves to be an atheist, but Muslims somehow do not find this as offensive as someone saying that he now believes that Mohammad was a pretender and not a real prophet. In my understanding of Islam, both should be Murtaad.

Notwithstanding the previous para, I am not aware of any laws in Pakistan against conversion to another religion. However, the fact that sharia courts have constitutional validity would, in my opinion, make it a grey area in Pakistan, if it ever came to the courts. Once again, I should emphasise that a declared Islamic Republic should not be judged by the same criteria as a state which is proud of its secular credentials.

Re: # 33
That is what hindu groups are doing is trying to bring the low caste people out from the injustice and to win their hearts and minds.
So pointing out the truth about tactics used by missionaries to convert people is weaving conspiracy theory and defaming them.
You dont think that the goal of missionaries working in India is to convert people. Graham staines who was killed in India had to report back to the church in australia about the number of people he converted just like a salesman to report to his supervisor about his sales.

Re: # 34
No one is ignoring ugly realities but i want to know the basis of your statement that desi community looks down on weakest member of society in India.

# 33

````nothing wrong with that. unless you know better than the low caste people what is good for them. and if you think that is wrong, then the answer is to compete with the christian missionaries for hearts and minds.````

That is exactly what we intend to do both by alleviating the current status of backward classes through official channels as well as supporting Hindu groups who fight the Chirstian missionaries on the same turf i.e. reconversion.. U seem to have a problem with that, I don`t know why.

```` the answer is not to weave conspiracy theories (as you are doing), or to defame the missionaries who are doing stuff you would never deign to do, ````

When Pope himself comes to India and declares from Delhi that his aim is to proselytize India, there is no need for me to invent any conspiracy theory..

I only intend to expose those missonaries who denigrate my religion for the sake of his..

```` but to learn something about public service from these missionaries. ````
I was never against that and you are right. They do perform a great service which needs to be appreciated and emulated to the extent possible by others,

Thanks,

samosa: as i said, you can go around wearing a halo, ignoring the ugly realities of india. i point to mukhtar mai because i am not prepared to ignore the ugly realities of pakistan.

#32 ``This is a massive effort both by Catholic church as well as other denomications to target and proselytize others``

nothing wrong with that. unless you know better than the low caste people what is good for them. and if you think that is wrong, then the answer is to compete with the christian missionaries for hearts and minds. the answer is not to weave conspiracy theories (as you are doing), or to defame the missionaries who are doing stuff you would never deign to do, but to learn something about public service from these missionaries.

Anyone who thinks that these missionaries are individual agents acting on their own will is in Fool`s paradise. This is a massive effort both by Catholic church as well as other denomications to target and proselytize others, particularly people belonging to the `softer` religions namely Hinduism, Buddhism etc... And they are well equipped in terms of both material and non material resources...

We have to counter these efforts on multiple dimensions:

1) Continue the work on dismantling the barriers of Caste within Hindu society and make it internally cohesive and strong

2) Alleviate the sufferings of oppressed classes by continuing the existing policies like Reservations as well through other means

3) Expose the devious methods used by outsiders to proselytize Hindus and develop laws banning them

4) Encourage Hindu groups who are involved in Reconversion activies by both Financial and other means of support

This is not a time to be philosophical about conversion being a collateral development to economic progress of poorer segments of population. Anyone who preaches and links economic help to salvation is the worst of all and needs to be countered...

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Re: # 30
soysauce, if the christians abroad may not fund the insurgency knowingly but unknowingly they do fund.
It would be amazing if the government can check on the fund coming from abroad to the missionaries of any religion but mostly it will be christians and muslims. It is said to be around $1 billion.

Re: # 29
I would not mind you ranting about quran as much as you want. That is your right to do but it is vastly different from the missionary activities in India.
I would really like to know where you get an idea that `` taking care of the weakest members of society whom the privileged members of desi society look down upon``. It utter nonsense because if you had looked at response of expatrite indian for tsunami or gujarat earthquake you would not be insulting them.

samosa, i don`t think christians abroad are funding the insurgency. Conversions are fueling the insurgency as a byproduct. For instance in manipur or nagaland a few weeks ago, don`t remember which, a tribal community that had converted gave ultimatum to the few remaining holdouts to convert or leave. Missionaries themselves were probably not present there and the zeal of the new convert and desire for homogeneity is what was responsible. There is a very strong political aspect to the whole thing and what the government should do is institute strict oversight on funds coming from overseas for WHATEVER cause.

Stuka #23 So looks like we are basically in agreement on this fundamental issue of whether religion is there to serve the individual or vice versa. Organized religion has undoubtedly been a source of much abuse through the ages.

But lets not knock the christian missionaries. They dont represent organized religion any more than tahmed ranting about the Quran on chowk represents anyone other than himself. The missionaries have devoted their lives to live in difficult and often dangerous conditions, taking care of the weakest members of society whom the privileged members of desi society look down upon. This hatred for missionaries is nothing more than the indian version of the ``Mukhtar Mai Syndrome`` - i.e. to blame the west for demonstrating concern for those whom the desi babus themselves would rather ignore. Pakistani babus still cant get over the shock of a ``mai`` being feted by rich and famous in the US, while they themselves have to suffer the ignominy of applying for visas and being treated like any other joe upon arrival in the US.

#22 tahmed2,
since you have brought pakistan in these conversations. let me ask you about blasphemy laws in pakistan.
Missionaries berate hindus, hinduism and hindu gods but there is no law against that similarly if in pakistan if missionaries berate the majority religion or the prophet of majority religion do you know what happens to them.
Pat robertson a televangelist came to india and called Lord Shiv a demon. Can he go to pakistan and call the prophet a demon.
ali_1 could say the exact words of post 24 in India and he would not be breaking any laws but if he does anything similar in pakistan about pakistanis religion he would be hanged.

Conversions are okay if a person finds it in his heart but inducing or bribing people to convert is wrong.
People complain about islamic militancy but in north east india the militancy is supported by christians and funded by tithe of christians all around the world.

Oops, my html coding stinks.
Here you go:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2004/03/03/stories/2004030300220900.htm

#25 romair,

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the official policy of converting religions in Pakistan......I know, unofficially, people do it. And it i quite common between Shias and Sunnis.........But they are in the same religion.........

But what if Mohammad Yosuf decided to become Yosuf Yohanna again? What would happne? I had an English teacher who became a Muslim, and then went back to his Christian faith. Nothing happened to him........And I have friends who consider themselves athiests, even though they were born Muslims........I moved towards athiesm at one point in my life.........But none of us are famous or well-known public figures........

Are the individuals converting to Christianity, from Hinduism, part of a lower cast? Are their upper caste Hindus converting also? From what I have read, most of the Hindus who converted to Islam, historically, were from the lower caste. Which is why one finds very, ``upper caste`` Muslim names in South Asia, like Qureshi, and Ansari and Syed. Obviously these guys` ancestors did not migrate from Arabia. They were just given these names, to riase their castes, so to speak...........

We should fully support the missionaries in their efforts to civilize these women burning, penile worshipping, urine drinking pagans. Hindus would prefer to live according to their 5000 year old parampara but the civilized world has to bring them to modernity, kicking and screaming.