Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

Why shouldn`t people convert if their neighbors and local goverment treats them poorly? I personally think its a good thing that the christians are putting ``pressure`` on the tribals by offering a few services.

I personally support the ekal vidayalaya movement which offers educational service with a hindu flavor. I dont see anything wrong with that either. Let there be competition between the communities to see who can advance the status of the poorest in india. It`s a kind of market dynamics that ensures some modest progress takes place, in spite of our ``socialist paradise has been achieved`` type goverment.

Mullah urstruly: No, poor manu certainly said nothing about ``religion`` or ``conversion``, concepts he would have never understood. He did say that a fanatic named Urstruly should be given a large enema ASAP. Here is the sanskrit original:

Mullah-Urstruly maha-enema davem
Bahut khushi bhagwan devatiam

kaurasach #91 If you are too busy to be unable to spend as much time on chowk as you would like to, then that is a good thing.

On forced conversions - lets, start with chowk: the only ones I see interested in conversions is hindus on chowk. i dont see any pakistanis or muslims interested in converting anyone to islam. and not just interested - this whole article is about conversions (or fear thereof); i have seen for years hindus coming to chowk and trying to make pakistanis feel there is something wrong in them being ``converts``. On the other hand, i dont see a single pakistani inviting hindus to become muslim - i personally have said many times that religion is a personal matter anyway. pakistanis themselves on chowk are too busy dissing one another to give a damn about converting anyone. and our resident islamist urstruly in fact thinks there should be no conversions permitted in any religion!!

What does this tell you about who is putting pressure on whom for conversions as far as chowk is concerned? hindus or muslims on chowk?

Once we get this basic thing straight, and once you have some time, then we can go googling on the internet for more elaborate research.

#54 by tahmed32 on November 15, 2005 5:59pm PT
samosa #52 If someone is willing to be ``bribed`` into changing religions, that is his or her choice. If someone is lied into converting, then he/she is free to change back when he/she discovers the lie. And can you any example of such a lie??

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Tahmed sahib, how would you feel if you found out later that the car that you bought was actually a lemon and the dealership lied. The 40K car after 3 months is only worth 20K because you were duped. Fact that you did not know much about cars(I am supposing here) did not qualify as you being willing to be duped. Now that you found car is lemon, I suppose you sellign it to someone for 20K will free the dealer from his guilt of duping you? and you should be happy too that you were allowed to sell your car for half the price now?

Car salesmen are known to be liek that but religion is about morality, ethics, spirituality, Dod and good things..any minutest hint of bias/brainwashing should qualify as ``bribing`` and duping.

Ref Mullah32 #88

[I have to go now. Look forward to enlightening responses from kaura and urstruly. (and harimau, you too may write a post to mullah32, if you wish. i dont want you to feel left out simply on account of the fact that you did not wash your face this morning).]

Gee whiz, people reading your posts here were under the impression that you were performing all elimination activities right here on Chowk!

defination of conversion for most Pakistanis seem to be limited to switching between various sects as and when needed. Becoming Shia from Sunni or Sunni from Ahmadi or Ismaili from Sunni might be considered as a conversion in Pakistan but for rest of the world it is mere switching sects within Islam and does not qualify as conversion.

Usrtruly #87: ``So Holy Prophet made it mandatory to ``Copy the Guidance`` of the Judo-Chrsitian law``

Are you stating that it is mandatory for Muslims to follow the laws of Christianity and Judaism? Could you highlight exactly which versions of those laws? Not to mention, which books? I don`t know about Judaism, but much of what is in Christianity contains things that Christians, themselves, cannot agree upon.................So who is to interpret this and who is to decide which verses from which books of Christianity and Judaism are to be used..........

# 95,

Thanks for the link and this is sad. In fact, this is one of the reasons I believe certain Hindu centric policies should be official in Indian constitution/laws.

I firmly support extending unconditional offer to all oppressed Hindus world wide to get refuge and rehabilitation in India. Looks like it is happening unofficially, hopefully we make it official,

Thanks,

dost mitter

As far as I know Manu Simirti mandates death penalty for apostasy. It is also not clear to me whether Manu based his law on a divine mandate or just decried by himself. I am also not sure if Hindus have such cannonical process to enact such law in present day. In case of Muslims, it is a divine mandate and a Muslim tradition since Mosaic Law or may be since Adam (pbuh) but written Islamic traditions only start after Psalms of David (pbuh).

kaurasach:

I googled and this is what I found. Of course, our Muslim spinmasters will claim that these are not true Muslims. True Muslims merely sit quiety while they let `naqli` muslims do their dirty deeds and leave them to issue pious sermons to non-muslims.

``Karachi: An alarming trend — that of Muslims kidnapping Pakistani Hindu girls and forcing them to convert to Islam — in Pakistan’s Sindh province is forcing the worried resident Hindu community to marry off their daughters as soon as they are of marriageable age or to migrate to India, Canada or other nations.

Recently, at least 19 such abduction cases have occurred in Karachi alone, while several others have been reported in the media.

Sanao Menghwar, a Hindu resident of Karachi’s Punjab Colony, is a traumatised man; all three of his daughters —Aishwarya, Reena and Reema — have been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam.

In the police complaint that he filed at the behest of the Panchayat after two days of futile searching for his daughters, he stated that when he and his wife returned home from work, they discovered their daughters had gone missing.

The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they’re minors. Menghwar’s daughters continue to remain missing.

“Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamp papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee Menghwar, a member of the Hindu Panchayat in Karachi.

According to him, the Pakistani government needs to examine and put a stop to the social oppression of religious minorities in the country. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger — they fear victimisation. But we have now decided to go public with these cases and demand justice,” Laljee says. Their cause has found support in the Pakistani Christian community, who carried out a demonstration with them in Karachi, protesting against this crime.

Similarly startling incidents have occurred in several districts of Sindh and evoked identical responses. At least six Hindu girls met this fate a few months ago in Jacobabad (a tribal area heavily inhabited by Hindus) and Larkana districts.

Sapna, the daughter of one Seth Giyanchand, was recently taken to a shrine (Amrote in Shikarpur district) by Shamsuddin Dasti. Dasti, a Muslim friend of Sapna’s brother, is a married man and father of two.

Nevertheless, the custodian of the shrine, Maulvi Abdul Aziz lost no time in converting Sapna to Islam (her names was changed to ‘Mehek’) and marrying her to Dasti. The case came to light only when Sapna’s parents stated that their daughter hadn’t eloped but been abducted.

Human rights activists, such as Nuzhat Shirin who belongs to the Aurat Foundation, says that religious extremism is rapidly increasing in Jacobabad and other Sindh districts.

Extremists in turn encourage shrines, which are involved with forced conversions. When a Hindu girl is converted to Islam, hundreds of extremists belonging to religious parties such as Maulana Fazlur Rehman’s Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam (JUI), take to the streets and chant religious slogans.

In Sapna’s case, when she was presented in court with Dasti, extremists showered rose petals on them and loudly chanted religious slogans. The fanaticism was so daunting that Sapna was too frightened to even speak with her own parents who were also present in the courtroom. At that, Maulvi Aziz, who was also standing in the courtroom, was said to have remarked, “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?”

Sapna’s story sparked widespread demonstrations by the Hindu community. Presidents and mukhis of Panchayats from various towns and districts met in Jacobabad to discuss this serious issue. Activists and leaders from educated segments of society strongly criticised the role of religious leaders, like Maulvi Aziz, in these forced conversion cases.

Still, the threat of victimisation by Muslims is palpable; Shirin says when forced conversion cases make it to court, lawyers themselves avoid taking them up, fearing a backlash from maulvis.

Giyanchand meanwhile has said that he has no other option but to migrate to India — it will be difficult for him to find grooms for his other daughters because of Sapna’s controversial conversion.

And forced conversions are not the only problem that the Hindu minority (there are 2.7 million Hindus in Pakistan; Pakistan’s total population is 140 million) is facing in the country.

A powerful syndicate of bandits and patrons in the northern districts of Sindh regularly kidnap rich Hindus for ransom. They not kill hostages if the ransom doesn’t arrive on time, they even kill some despite their ransom being paid.

Sadham Chand Chawla, the former president of the Hindu Panchayat, Jacobabad, was abducted and murdered. His killers remain at large despite enormous protests. Following his murder, his family had received several threats until they secretly migrated to India.

[http://web.mid-day.com/news/world/2005/november/123248.htm]

Urstruly (#87),

Earlier we had a similar debate … where you tried to validate Torah over Quran. This earlier debate was on the issue of adultery. As usual, you supported killing the perpetrator. As I pointed out Quranic verses which contradicted your position, you danced around the issue.

Quran on apostasy

Quran addresses apostasy in several places and not even once mentions any worldly punishment for apostates. Rather, in one place Quran mentions that if a person leaves Islam, and later reverts back to Islam, Allah will be most forgiving towards him. Killing this person for apostasy, which you support, would leave no possibility of this person returning back to Islam.

Quran validating earlier scripture

Verse 6:90 applies to the general teachings of Torah and those of other earlier scriptures. All revealed religions have the same Source, and therefore their message is fundamentally the same.

These religions differ from each other in details, as each religion was tailored to the needs of specific people, for specific times. As Quran addresses all people for all times to come, it introduced new details in divine Law, abrogating the earlier ones as needed. This principle is highlighted in the verse 2:106, where Quran says … None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar …”

I am of the view that you are misinterpreting 6:90, while ignoring 2:106 and other Quranic verses dealing with apostasy. Here’s the link to our earlier debate:
Click []

Hindus also converted to islam either by force....or in uncommon cases for favors......or they gave away their daughters to save themselves or their interests..........

Some convert to marry muslim girls or boys.....

Most emplyees converted to islam during mughals....made lives easier....and won favors.....

that is why most artisans in India are `muslims`......

Aurangzeb tried to convert ``bhai nand lal Goya....who fled to the protection of the Guru - and later compiled the best Persian poetry in sikh literature.....most were not so lucky.......

In Bangladesh, prominent Hindu merchants are converting to save their properties.......

YES........at least SIKHS should have a decree to the effect.......here is the reason.....


Ranjit Singh ( a villain (or at least a selfish fool) and failure in my book) should have converted muslims back......``sikhi or death``.....paid back in the same currency as Abdali, Aurangzeb, Mir Mannu etc......

Had he done that, (most would have converted without resistance).......NO muslim majority in Punjab, NO PakiSATAN, NO loss of millions of innocent lives......

He was a `secular` and angel compared to muslim monarchs......


What did it earn him, his progeny or sikhs?

The plate pissers forgot his secularity overnight.......

This is the muslim strategy to survive and thrive......lie low (or if necessary, bootlick) when the opponent is strong......breed......wait for the opportunity......forget.....and wipe them out when you are strong.....that is Why islam and muslims have spread across the globe.......

same strategy is being used in the West and US.......Paris riots are the latest.....

Tauheed,

The news of these conversions are common; i am too busy these days......thus the long absences from CHOWK.....and my half finished posts.......

anyways GOOGLE it. Tribune carried a detail news on this......


Solitary examples like the cricket man and the judge....while hundreds are forced to convert is a ``Wahizaat`` gull.......

Google Leiah (on indus banks; try different spellings).......entire Hindu population was converted by threats and abductions.....handful escaped to Haryana.......

For conversions in Bangladesh, go to Mukto Mana org.....it has pictures too.....

Warm Reception is a hospitality thing amongst muslims.....In the frontier areas, even an enemy is given hospitality......before he is butchered.......it is muslim thing......doesn`t amount to much......

When i have free time, I am writing about this stark difference between muslims and non muslims.......

Urstruly:

Are you suggesting that Hindus should also decree death for anyone who converts to another religion or tries to convert a Hindu? Do you realise that this means that neither you nor tahmed would be a Muslim today?

urstruly: (on my way out, but just say #87)....Yaa Khuda!! failing to find anything in the Quran to what he boldly claimed ``Islam said``, Urstruly has to dig into Judeo-Christian books to support his need to stone to death those he change their religion!!

I have to go now. Look forward to enlightening responses from kaura and urstruly. (and harimau, you too may write a post to mullah32, if you wish. i dont want you to feel left out simply on account of the fact that you did not wash your face this morning).