Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

# 95,

Thanks for the link and this is sad. In fact, this is one of the reasons I believe certain Hindu centric policies should be official in Indian constitution/laws.

I firmly support extending unconditional offer to all oppressed Hindus world wide to get refuge and rehabilitation in India. Looks like it is happening unofficially, hopefully we make it official,

Thanks,

Usrtruly #87: ``So Holy Prophet made it mandatory to ``Copy the Guidance`` of the Judo-Chrsitian law``

Are you stating that it is mandatory for Muslims to follow the laws of Christianity and Judaism? Could you highlight exactly which versions of those laws? Not to mention, which books? I don`t know about Judaism, but much of what is in Christianity contains things that Christians, themselves, cannot agree upon.................So who is to interpret this and who is to decide which verses from which books of Christianity and Judaism are to be used..........

defination of conversion for most Pakistanis seem to be limited to switching between various sects as and when needed. Becoming Shia from Sunni or Sunni from Ahmadi or Ismaili from Sunni might be considered as a conversion in Pakistan but for rest of the world it is mere switching sects within Islam and does not qualify as conversion.

Ref Mullah32 #88

[I have to go now. Look forward to enlightening responses from kaura and urstruly. (and harimau, you too may write a post to mullah32, if you wish. i dont want you to feel left out simply on account of the fact that you did not wash your face this morning).]

Gee whiz, people reading your posts here were under the impression that you were performing all elimination activities right here on Chowk!

#54 by tahmed32 on November 15, 2005 5:59pm PT
samosa #52 If someone is willing to be ``bribed`` into changing religions, that is his or her choice. If someone is lied into converting, then he/she is free to change back when he/she discovers the lie. And can you any example of such a lie??

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Tahmed sahib, how would you feel if you found out later that the car that you bought was actually a lemon and the dealership lied. The 40K car after 3 months is only worth 20K because you were duped. Fact that you did not know much about cars(I am supposing here) did not qualify as you being willing to be duped. Now that you found car is lemon, I suppose you sellign it to someone for 20K will free the dealer from his guilt of duping you? and you should be happy too that you were allowed to sell your car for half the price now?

Car salesmen are known to be liek that but religion is about morality, ethics, spirituality, Dod and good things..any minutest hint of bias/brainwashing should qualify as ``bribing`` and duping.

kaurasach #91 If you are too busy to be unable to spend as much time on chowk as you would like to, then that is a good thing.

On forced conversions - lets, start with chowk: the only ones I see interested in conversions is hindus on chowk. i dont see any pakistanis or muslims interested in converting anyone to islam. and not just interested - this whole article is about conversions (or fear thereof); i have seen for years hindus coming to chowk and trying to make pakistanis feel there is something wrong in them being ``converts``. On the other hand, i dont see a single pakistani inviting hindus to become muslim - i personally have said many times that religion is a personal matter anyway. pakistanis themselves on chowk are too busy dissing one another to give a damn about converting anyone. and our resident islamist urstruly in fact thinks there should be no conversions permitted in any religion!!

What does this tell you about who is putting pressure on whom for conversions as far as chowk is concerned? hindus or muslims on chowk?

Once we get this basic thing straight, and once you have some time, then we can go googling on the internet for more elaborate research.

Why shouldn`t people convert if their neighbors and local goverment treats them poorly? I personally think its a good thing that the christians are putting ``pressure`` on the tribals by offering a few services.

I personally support the ekal vidayalaya movement which offers educational service with a hindu flavor. I dont see anything wrong with that either. Let there be competition between the communities to see who can advance the status of the poorest in india. It`s a kind of market dynamics that ensures some modest progress takes place, in spite of our ``socialist paradise has been achieved`` type goverment.

Mullah urstruly: No, poor manu certainly said nothing about ``religion`` or ``conversion``, concepts he would have never understood. He did say that a fanatic named Urstruly should be given a large enema ASAP. Here is the sanskrit original:

Mullah-Urstruly maha-enema davem
Bahut khushi bhagwan devatiam

#56 by tahmed32 on November 15, 2005 6:21pm PT
dm #55 what i am arguing for is not conversions, but in the right of the individual to convert if he/she wishes. that is all, so please dont read more into it than what i am saying.

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Tahmed, thats not what you were advocating in previous posts.

Right of the individual to covert

and

Right to convert the individual

are two different things. When first one is a fundamental human right, the I am afraid the second one is not.

dullabhatti #101 you may call my car a lemon, sir. i feel very comfortable in this convertible (ha! ha!) of mine - power steering holy book that does away with the need for a priest to drive me around where he wants to (along with the need to feed and pay him!!); power brakes that bring me to a screeching halt from 60 mph in 1 nanosecond when i start getting uppity and superior to my fellow passengers; easy to understand dashboard uncluttered with little gimmicks (rituals) added by the above-mentioned priest-driver to help ensure only he can drive the car; state of the art GPS car navigation system (personal responsibility to use common sense) that permits to stay on the right path, rather than being misled by the above-mentioned priest-driver.

Sure, some other owners of this model have made a mess of the navigation system and instead chosen to let the priest-driver take them on a ride; others have allowed the VIP culture to rip the brakes to shreds. We ``muslims`` did not get a lemon - we simply ran the car to the ground. Others keep it parked in the garage - and that is fine too.

i am sure your car is not a lemon, either sir. just have the courtesy not to berate my fine convertible either.

#104 please tell me which post I said ``right to convert`` the individual. if you just made it up, i hope that as a gentleman you will be good enough to apologize for misrepresenting what i said.

db: i have to go now, but will be back to see your response.

#67 by tahmed32 on November 15, 2005 6:53pm PT
where were the kids parents? wouldnt they set the record straight and tell the kid that God (or Brahman) may be Almighty, but He is not a mechanic.

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hmmm...I think he said kids were from orphanage.
but what about parents who hold the kid in lap and tell him stories who they know are not true? or don`t make logical sense?

Tauheed,

You saw the post by DM regarding the conversions. First you asked for the proof; Now that you have it - you completely ignored it ...... this affliction is common amongst muslims .... when confronted with misdeeds of their berthen, they either become BLIND or DEETH.

Muslims wont change their spots.....Non muslims have to change - MIStreat muslims like they do kafirs....For every woman kidnapped in PakiSatan, I`m all for kidnapping 1000 muslim women in India, ...... this muslim kanjarpana will stop overnight.....for every Hindu crossing over, send 5000 packing.....

Tahmed sahib, I am glad you feel that your car is not a lemon..it is good that it is so... but my analogy was clearly about what if your car were to be lemon and you found that out 3 months after buying. Please tell...forget about religion...how would you feel if you were sold a lemon car? Analogy is not to make you emphathise the way you already feel, but to emphathise the opposite to how you feel (if that were to be the case).

in the other post. ..only first sentence was for you.....Bold sentences were not what you said..but what I stated in general context of the subject under discussion...not necessarily addressed to you.

Though you were clearly coming off in many earlier posts in this thread as if you think that missionaries have the right to convert and save hindus. anyway you seem to have changed your stance later in the thread.

Romair # 98

The Holy Qura`n discusses in detail both the Jews and Christians and their books etc. As a matter of fact more than half of the book is dedicated on this subject. The Holy Qura`n makes it explicitly clear that it is incumbent on Muslim to believe that the Torah and Bible are true word of God.

A common conception is that by Torah it is meant five original books of Old Testament and by Bible it is meant the four books of New Testament i.e. Mathew, Luke, Marks and John. But it is an agreed fact that all the nine above mentioned books have been altered by Christians and Jews in several ways, and Qura`n attests to this fact as well. So in Qura`n, one of the reason that God mentions why he sent another Prophet (Mohammad pbuh) to them was because of that corruption that had happened in their books.

Briefly, Torah is the collection of all the revelations that were made to Moses during the course of 40 years of his prophethood; it also includes the first ten commandments that he received on mount Sinai in the form of stone tablets. Moses (pbuh) compiled those revelations in the form of a book and made 12 copies; giving each Jewish tribe a copy. The original was given to Levi tribe. These copies remained intact until the first destruction of the Temple Mount. IN that destruction all copies were destroyed while Levis kept the original book hidden from invaders. As the time went by they, forgot about their hidden possession.. A couple of centuries later when Jews again took power, during the reign of Joshua (pbuh) this said copy was re-discovered (Kings, Chapter 22, verse 8-13). However this copy was lost permanently when second destruction of Jerusalem happened. A few decades later God sent Prophet Ezra (pbuh) upon them who compiled the Torah again in 17 volumes. These volumes contained some of the actual edicts from the original Torah, which were taken from the oral tradition of tribal elders along with a detailed history of Israelites. So in short the books of Old testament that we have now, was compiled by Ezra (pbuh) and those books contain, history of Isrealites, biography of Moses i.e. his ahadith and of course some of the text from the original Torah that was revealed to Moses.

Similarly, the New Testament or Christian Bible is actually a collection of four books. Since the Prophethood of Jesus (pbuh) lasted only three years and it is not known whether he was able to compile his revelations in the form of book during his life time. However, a serious effort to compile all the sayings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was undertaken approximately 90 years after he departed this world. Same as Torah, these compilations have three components – biography of Jesus (pbuh), his sayings, and some of text that may have been revealed to him. If you look at the bible, at several places it discusses the matters in the terms such as “Jesus said so…” or “then Jesus did that…..” it becomes clear from the context that it is a third person who is writing the biographical note and hence it is not a divine text.

So in either case it is almost impossible to separate what is actually the revelations and what is the altered or additional part. But despite that fact Qura’n explicitly stipulates Muslims to have faith in Torah and Bible. But the question naturally emerges, which Bible or which part of Torah? In order to address this dilemma Qura’n puts forth two criterion of verifying the authenticity of parts of Torah and Bible:

1. It must not contradict Qura’n
2. The judgement lies with Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) to verify the authenticity by his word and action.

These two criterion have been inferred by jurists through the verse 3 of the Chapter The House of Imran 3:3, which stipulates;

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).”